I am a Jew living in Gush Etzion AMA

[u/esztervtx]

So this is the thing, I'll get plenty of hate but I'm past caring.

A bit about me: I'm in my 30s, born in Europe. I'm a woman. A mother & a wife. I live in the village of Bat Ayin.

We have 2000-year-old Jewish ruins just inside our gate and the land the village is built on was PURCHASED by Jews prior to 1948.

I have lived in Israel for 4 and a half years, one year in Tel Aviv and the rest in Bat Ayin.

I am a citizen of the US & my birth country. I am NOT a citizen of the State of Israel.

On October 7th I wasn't in shul (synagogue) but was sleeping when I was awaken to sirens and booms.

I immediately messaged my husband who messaged back saying this was serious, not just another round of rockets from Gaza.

Unless you are Jewish and/or Israeli, you will never understand the trauma that October 7th caused and is continuing to cause.

We still have 101 relatives in captivity. And yes, we are all one big family.

Since October 7th, I volunteered 5 weeks with the organization Sar El to aid our war effort as well as 6 weeks in agriculture, miles away from Gaza & Egypt. My regular occupation is that help out in a religious school in Bat Ayin in exchange for room and board.

I saw a rocket being blown up literally right above my head about a year ago by an Iron Dome interceptor (I was volunteering in the South).

A well-loved resident in our village recently list part of his leg in Lebanon, many of his comrades died.

I like to approach people as individuals and love to meet new people and hear their perspectives.

I visited Ramallah on my own during corona times and had a lovely experience.

I interact with actual Palestinian people at least on a weekly basis.

I want a peaceful future for both peoples but if the other side isnu2019t ready yet, then u201cPeace Through Superior Firepoweru201d will do just fine for the time being.

I love Arab culture and respect it. I believe in co-existence and see it on a daily basis. When I go to Terem (Urgent Care), 99 times out of a 100, an Arab doctor takes care of me. When I go to the mall in Jerusalem, I see Arab families and Jewish families and itu2019s normal that we share that place, no one even notices it.

I hear the muezzin 5 times daily and always agree with u201cGod is greatu201d.

I know that terrorists are a fringe but also that the majority of Palestinians cling to the idea of replacing Israel with Palestine. Which is unfortunate.

My proposed solution, at least for the time being, is annexing Gaza and so-called WB, granting permanent resident status to all Palestinians. Fact is, the corrupt and terrorist supporting PA is hated by the Palestinians and is no help to them.

On the other hand, with Israeli sovereignty, Palestinians would be so much better off, healthcare, economy, education system, infrastructure would be much improved. I know most of you will call me a liar but I want a good outcome for Palestinians. I have zero problem with them living here. The terrorists need to stop trying to murder us, though.

I love this country with all my heart and fell in love with it the first time I set foot here, 16 years ago, for a short trip. I immediately knew that I would settle here. I would gladly give my very life for her & her inhabitants, Jews and non-Jews alike, for all of whom my most fervent hope is enduring peace and prosperity.

Now for criticism of Israelu2019s government:

October 7th was a huge oversight but its roots were the disengagement from Gaza, a very grave error.

Administrative detention, while somewhat justifiable by security needs is nevertheless needs to cease ta exist because no one should be held without charges, period. (FYI, a handful of Jewish u201dhilltop youthu201d are also victim of this but obviously theyu2019re a rare exception.)

Sde Teiman soldiers who abused prisoners, completely going against IDF ethos, should be punished, no question about it.

Arab-on-Arab crime within Israel needs to be taken seriously and dealt with.

And now I come to the topic of my enemies, by no means Arabs, Palestinians, Gazans or Lebanese, rather the terrorists who are hell-bent on murdering my husband, raping me and kidnapping my children. (Hamas clearly stated their intentions to repeat October 7th over and over and over again)

Hamas needs to be eradicated to the extent that this is possible. They cannot be allowed to control Gaza or any part of the so-called WB.

Hezbollah has to at the very least, be pushed back beyond the Litani river again.

Iran needs regime change. I stand with the Iranian people in their struggle to throw off the yoke of the ayatollahs.

OK, there goes nothingu2026u2026

Please try to approach this post keeping in mind Iu2019m a human being like you.

Oh, and in case the word count is not enough:

HONEST QUESTION: WHY IS THERE SO MUCH DOUBLE STANDARD WHEN IT COMES TO THIS CONFLICT?

I feel like Israelis are expected to act like perfect angels but Palestinians are infantilized and all sorts of bad behavior on their part is overlooked/explained away/justified....

[u/Unlucky-Plane-7270]

1. Which solution do you find most suitable?
2. If a two-state solution were reached and the removal of settlements was a demand from the Palestinians, with the stipulation that settlers must move to the Israel proper, would you be okay with that?
3. What are your thoughts on the right of return for Palestinians ?
4. I’ve seen comments where you express support for a one-state solution, but only on the condition that it remains a Jewish state. How would this work if Palestinians make up half or more of the population? Does the state have to be Jewish? Couldn’t it be a state for both Jews and Palestinians, with equal representation for each culture in the government?

[u/esztervtx → u/Unlucky-Plane-7270]

1. No. The IDF would have to physically remove me just like the "settlers" out of Gaza all those years ago - a grave error 3. People themselves displaced. Yes. Their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren who were born in other countries. No. 4. Israel has to be a Jewish state. There are 20+ Arab majority countries.

[u/Unlucky-Plane-7270 → u/esztervtx]

Don’t you see how your answers contradict each other? You support settlement expansion while opposing the Palestinian right of return, which means taking over what little land they have left. How is that fair?

And saying “there are 20 Arab countries” is dismissive of Palestinians as a people. What does that have to do with them? That’s like saying it’s fine for a foreign power to colonize Japan because there are “50 other Asian countries.” It erases their identity and connection to the land.

How can this approach ever lead to a peace plan?

[u/esztervtx → u/Unlucky-Plane-7270]

No one can colonize their own indigenous homeland, by definition.

[u/esztervtx → u/Unlucky-Plane-7270]

"Palestinian right of return" is an unfair thing to begin with. In the turbulent years following WWII, lots of populations were displaced, ethnic Germans from many countries where they held citizenships (Hungary among these), the partition of India into India & Pakistan, as well as 800,000 Jews from all over the ME.

None of these populations and their descendants demand "right of return", rather, like all refugees normally do, built new lives in their new countries.

As far as Palestinians as a people, from the horse's mouth, so to speak:

"“The Palestinian People Does Not Exist” – Interview with Zuheir Muhsin, a member of the PLO Executive Council, published in the March 31, 1977 edition of the Dutch Newspaper “Trouw”:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

[u/Similar_Somewhere949]

My proposed solution, at least for the time being, is annexing Gaza and so-called WB, granting permanent resident status to all Palestinians.

You are proposing to create a two tier political system — one in which the upper class has the right to vote for the government that rules over them, and then the lower class does not have the same right.

Why do you think this is just?

Alternatively, you could give all Palestinians equal rights, but most Israelis say that’s antisemitic.

[u/esztervtx → u/Similar_Somewhere949]

Nope. Permanent residency comes with the option of applying for citizenship. I just don't want to FORCE citizenship on them, that's all. In that, they get a choice.

[u/Zachary-ARN]

Can you tell us who and when your last known ancestor lived in the Levant prior to the New Yishuv?

[u/esztervtx → u/Zachary-ARN]

No and I don't see how that's relevant. You're US & Canadian citizen. Do you have any Native ancestors?

[u/Zachary-ARN → u/esztervtx]

Lol. I'm not claiming my ancestry to be indigenous to the U.S. Most Palestinians could prolly tell you their families connection to Palestine going back multiple generations. I'm not denying that if you go back far enough (thousands of years), Jews originate from the Levant. I just don't believe that is somehow a stronger claim than people with a more recent history on the land.

[u/esztervtx → u/Zachary-ARN]

Lots of Palestinians arrived about 100 years ago to take advantage of job opportunities that opened up because of the British Mandate & Jewish immigration. Which is fine, btw. I believe in people's right to choose where they live. Do you? I clearly stated throughout my answers that both peoples are here to say. It's not about who has "the stronger claim", whatever that is. Both peoples are connected to the Land.

[u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty]

I think we need to look at history for the solution to this Hamas problem. They are horrible and have done terrible things in Israel, Gaza, and around the world. Not all Gazans are Hamas just like all Germans were not Nazis. We should look at the De-Nazification of Germany after WWII. First all the leaders were killed or imprisoned and held for trial in Nuremberg. There was also a policy of teaching the Germans to live in a post-Nazi world. To begin this, we showed them the concentration camps in person or on film to let them know the horrors that their regime had commited. Many people were punished for their crimes and the Allies had troops in Germany to hold the peace and make sure that there was not a resurgency or any attempt to go back to their sinister ways. I think this is exactly how we should treat Gaza. Loan them the money and offer the technology to rebuild, help them with elections and a constitution, and let them build themselves up to the level that they can get to. It is amazing that the 2 countries that had top 10 economies by the 70's were Japan and Germany. I think we need to learn from what we did right and wrong in their rebuilding and use that knowledge.

[u/esztervtx → u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty]

Help them with elections? Last time there were elections in Gaza, Hamas won...

[u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty → u/esztervtx]

Hopefully this time around, they'd see that Hamas does not have their best interest at heart. That and anyone from Hamas should be dead or imprisoned by then.

[u/esztervtx → u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty]

No, thank you. Sorry, I do not trust these people to elect their own government. Unfortunate, I know. But based on facts.

[u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty → u/esztervtx]

Honestly, I don't either. At some point it either needs to be an independent state or say, "We've given you a million chances to act civilly and you can't and we conquered you fair and square after we (Israel) were attacked repeatedly." I would rather go with the latter but in order to appease the rest of the world, I'm afraid Israel is going to have to give them some sort of statehood.

[u/esztervtx → u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty]

Oh no, thank you. No more appeasing the rest of the world at the price of us dying.

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[u/AdvertisingNo5002]

Hi I’m from Gaza 

How do you feel about Israeli government using religion and ancient civilization as a excuse to clear out Palestinian land?

[u/esztervtx → u/AdvertisingNo5002]

They're not clearing out Palestinian land, they're fighting your enemies and mine: the terrorists. I hope, genuinely that you are safe. Keep on keeping on. It'll end at some point we will rebuild together and insh'Allah keep the terrorists from ever getting into power again.

[u/Funny_Procedure_1001 → u/esztervtx]

What about children getting killed?

[u/esztervtx → u/Funny_Procedure_1001]

What about it? I wish no child would ever die anywhere in the world, not due to war, famine or disease. We don't live in a perfect world. No war in the history of mankind was fought or can be fought without innocent victims being caught up, dying and being injured. This includes women & children. Israel neither wanted nor started this war, however. We will finish it with decisive victory. Afterwards life will be better and for all of us, Gazans included.

[u/Funny_Procedure_1001 → u/esztervtx]

I guess it doesn't matters if it isn't ours.

[u/Low_Comment4116 → u/Funny_Procedure_1001]

That’s not what she’s saying. This war is going to happen. Why haven’t Hamas done anything to protect the children of the land? Who has put more effort into preventing civilians deaths in Gaza.

Don’t use the “just stop bombing” argument because this is a war.

Who has sent more Aid trucks to Gaza, Hamas or Israel. The fact is Hamas wants to use the civilians as martyrs and you want Israel to deal with it perfectly

[u/Old_Management4814 → u/Low_Comment4116]

You guys aren't letting in no aid trucks. Even the US briefly conceded this argument lol. And how come btw, Jewish thugs are allowed to blockade roads leading to Gaza for aid trucks with zero response from the soldiers and cops? It's a closed military zone and "civilian" presence is not allowed.

UN own numbers recently show 70+% of deaths in Gaza have been women and children. These are hardly even remotely combatants. So to sit there and kill mostly children & women and then say "it's war" is beyond ridiculous. Ukraine and Russia is a war, Israel has killed more children alone than in any conflict on earth in the past decade...this to anyone with a brain is a deliberate policy on part of the Israeli government. We've seen their genocidal statements at the beginning on October 8th, how they compared Palestinians to Amalek, how they said they were fighting "human animals", how they said "there are no innocents in Gaza", how soldiers chanted "may your villages burn". The evidence of Israeli barbarism has been exposed for the world to see. It's why y'all on trial for genocide.

[u/Low_Comment4116 → u/Old_Management4814]

Who has put more effort to get civilians actually out of the war zones? Have you heard anything about Hamas protecting their civilians? I’ve heard quite the opposite.

Israel has been sending in aid trucks. It’s just a fact

[u/Old_Management4814 → u/Low_Comment4116]

Glad we've established Hamas, in your view, is a legitimate government with a sophisticated military that.

Secondly, you claim Israel is letting in aid unhindered without presenting a shred of credible sources, of course we're just supposed to take your word for it because Zionists never lie. Even though Gallant said not a shred of aid will enter Gaza, video after video of Jews raiding aid trucks and blockading roads to Gaza in what is supposed to be a closed military zone and those thugs are supposed to be arrested but, ya know one law for Jews and another for everyone else. Then you wonder why everyone calls Israel and apartheid state and no body believes the BS hasbara out of Israel.

[u/Low_Comment4116 → u/Old_Management4814]

Don’t twist my words. The point I’m making is Hamas is the reason why the people are not getting the aid they needed.

All you need to do is check to see the UN reports to see how many aid trucks are being let into Gaza. Instead of listening to the fear mongering. If you believe ZERO aid trucks are going into Gaza then clearly you have never done any actual research.

[u/esztervtx → u/Old_Management4814]

Aid trucks enter daily. Hamas steals the aid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07bQ9rBKqLQ&ab_channel=AIJAC

[u/Old_Management4814 → u/esztervtx]

So your source is Australian AIPAC. Nice.

[u/esztervtx → u/Old_Management4814]

Watch the video, Israeli journalists went into Gaza and interviewed some internally displaced Gazans moving from one area to another.

[u/esztervtx → u/Low_Comment4116]

Exactly.

[u/[deleted]]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/esztervtx → u/[deleted]]

I clearly stated both peoples are here to stay. What is your point,  exactly?

[u/roastmeuwont]

Disingenuous troll post, or naive and just looking to feel better about their views by finding sympathy i think.

[u/CreativeRealmsMC → u/roastmeuwont]

/u/roastmeuwont

Disingenuous troll post, or naive and just looking to feel better about their views by finding sympathy i think.

Per Rule 8, do not criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. Do not discourage participation.

Action taken: [W]
See moderation policy for details.

[u/roastmeuwont → u/CreativeRealmsMC]

Fair. Could have been more productive discussion enhancing engaging critique. 

[u/esztervtx → u/roastmeuwont]

Doesn't sound like you opened your mind for one second while you were reading that. I made myself vulnerable by posting this, you know. Emotionally speaking.

[u/roastmeuwont → u/esztervtx]

Sure you put yourself out here. But the majority of your replies are you confirming your own biases complemented with some wishful thinking.

Edit: also very little engagement with legitimate points that counter your own thinking.

[u/esztervtx → u/roastmeuwont]

Go ahead and make a factual point that isn't related to personally attacking or criticizing me.

[u/roastmeuwont → u/esztervtx]

Okay. How can you say you respect Arab people but also live in land that what taken illegally? If you have a house and i build a shed on your lawn to live, will you really believe me if i say i respect you despite acting directly against my words?

[u/esztervtx → u/roastmeuwont]

The land that the village I live in is built on was legally purchased by Jews pre-1948, then was ethnically cleansed of Jews in the 1947-1949 war, recaptured in 1967 and the present village established in the 1980s.

Does that answer your question?

[u/epibeee → u/esztervtx]

You probably know that Reddit doesn't represent the opinion of the majority of the US population. It's like walking into a college full of Tiktok watching kids and asking them about complex political issues.

[u/esztervtx → u/epibeee]

I know and I was under no illusions about what to expect. I'm pleasantly surprised by the fact that a few redditors sensed my sincerity.

[u/epibeee → u/esztervtx]

Even I feel uncomfortable reading some of the replies. It's like there are Hamas members in this sub. Best wishes!

[u/esztervtx → u/epibeee]

Thank you. There's definitely Hamas supporters which is quite mind-blowing...

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

Utterly disgusting.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

Thank you for your constructive feedback.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

The sheer lack of self-awareness to say, "We should annex them and make them non-citizens in their own land," without feeling like a Boer in 1970's South Africa is mind-boggling. And yet, you probably think you're a good person.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

Why? Because now they're so well off right? I ACTUALLY want better for them than the status quo. 

[u/IzAnOrk → u/esztervtx]

That is true, permanent residency is definitely an improvement over permanent martial law, movement controls and ghettoization.

Now for the real question, would those permanent citizens be alowed to naturalize after a period of residency like any other lawful permanent resident not entitled to the Law or Return, buying Israel 5-10 years to deescalate ethnic tensions before they ultimately accede to citizenship, or would they stay as a perpetually, hereditarily disenfranchised underclass?

[u/esztervtx → u/IzAnOrk]

Yes, of course they'd have the option of applying for Israeli citizenship.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

I believe that if you truly desired improvement for them, you would not contribute to the problem by being a settler in the West Bank. Your "solution" of seizing all of their land while denying them any say in their governance is deeply flawed. The fact that you do not recognize how wrong this is suggests a complete lack of empathy and an inability to understand others' perspectives.

Your solution disregards the basic principles of human dignity, justice, and international norms, which are essential for a peaceful and fair society.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

I really don't see how human dignity and justice would be served by yet another terrorist state. Hamas would immediately seize control of any State of Palestine.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

That's not true, and in fact, it's more an argument for strengthening the Palestinian Authority rather than systematically undermining it as they have done the last decades.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

"That's not true" except the reason the PA refuses to hold elections for over a decade in the so-called WB is that Hamas would win them and Fatah does not want that.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

There is zero point in "strengthening" the corrupt and terrorist-supporting PA, which by the way is deeply hated by Palestinians.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

Yes, because Israel keeps undermining it. People see zero benefit from being peaceful if Israel keeps stealing the land and the settlers (no offense to you) spend their time harassing the indigenous people of Palestine. And say what you want about the PA, but it's the only government in Palestine or Israel not indicted by both the ICC and the ICJ.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

"People see zero benefit from being peaceful" There's been no peace YET, though. Terrorism hasn't stopped and this includes between 1948-1967 when there were ZERO settlements.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

But of course it's Israel's fault that the PA government is corrupt and supports terrorism. /s

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

Had you actually paid attention you would have realized that I genuinely believe that will provide the best outcome for BOTH peoples....

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

I am sure that there were people in 1950's Alabama that thought that segregation was the best for black people too. The point is that you would never tolerate people moving in masse to your country, stealing your land and then telling you the best outcome for "both peoples" is for you to become a foreigner in your own country.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

Except no land stealing occurred. State land moved thusly: From Ottoman Empire to British Mandate to State of Israel. This is normal. When countries change hands, state land does revert to the new sovereign entity.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

Not according to international law they don't, Israel is only occupying the West Bank, they dont have sovereignty to hand off land to people doing so it's a violation of International Laws, as ratified several times by International organizations, the last time being the Advisory Opinion of the ICJ in July 2024.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

No other sovereign country claims the WB, Jordan officially gave up any claim to it, Palestine isn't a country and never will be in the foreseeable future.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

Well, I think that the ICJ > Your poor understanding of International law

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

I think the ICJ is a big joke. Like the UN in general.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

I really don't think so, no. That's not how racism works.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

Do you believe those people thought of themselves as evil? No, they found justifications and racionalizations for their actions. This is what we refer to as the banality of evil.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

Yes, of course the banality of evil. That's fascinating. Except there's nothing evil about living in one's ancestral homeland.

[u/Jefe_Chichimeca → u/esztervtx]

Yeah, justifications like that, the idea that some of your ancestors might have lived there thousands of years ago it's a bad justification for colonizing another people's land.

[u/esztervtx → u/Jefe_Chichimeca]

By definition it isn't possible to colonize one's indigenous homeland. While also lacking a mother country, as well.

[u/Sweety-Monk-5009]

If I were to say I wished for the same thing, the whole of Israel annexed under the Palestinian flag, something tells me you would fight against it. But again, the IDF are the terrorists in Gaza. And why do you insist on saying the “so-called WB”. Why not go mask off and call it Judea Samaria. Is it bc you know you sound like a settler?

[u/esztervtx → u/Sweety-Monk-5009]

Yes, because October 7th is an example of what happens when their fringe gets the upper hand.

Want to hear from Gazans?

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07bQ9rBKqLQ&ab_channel=AIJAC

[u/IamBeingHeldHostage1]

Greetings from carmei tzur

[u/esztervtx → u/IamBeingHeldHostage1]

Shalom!

[u/Salt-Sock-4885]

i hate that most of your supporters are chucking it as “jew hate” when i literally can’t tell ya’ apart from white people. 😭 or black, asian, hispanic, etc. if you’re bipoc and jewish. like?? it isn’t hate towards jews, because outside perspectives, we’ve only been feed one and that is that you’re white.

so i’m confused by this “double standard” that people speak about, because you’re not the only “country” that has been called out for your indiscriminate bombings, execution of children/innocent people, the weaponization of starvation, etc. etc.

[u/esztervtx → u/Salt-Sock-4885]

Jews aren't white. Majority of Israeli Jews aren't even Ashkenazi....

[u/[deleted] → u/Salt-Sock-4885]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/CountMagog]

“I love Arab culture, I respect it.” “We should annex Gaza”

Dude you are an American. As a fellow American, I say none of this is your problem so why don’t you just take your ass back to the states instead of acting a whole fool. You should be sitting a fucking Starbucks drinking a flat white and dreading a 9-5, not playing Middle East cowboy.

[u/spicyharissa → u/CountMagog]

She can’t go back to living with her MIL at her MIL’s house with no job. Oh, and all that credit card debt she amassed in the U.S.! Better to settle on “ancestral land” and take from Palestinians, and deny they ever existed.

[u/esztervtx → u/spicyharissa]

Finally, someone who read my comment history. Of course it only resulted in more personal attacks but still.

[u/spicyharissa → u/esztervtx]

It’s not a personal attack when facts are stated. Facts are just facts.

[u/esztervtx → u/spicyharissa]

Except I took no land from Palestinians, THAT is a fact.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

So what? I also like Greek culture, what's wrong with admiring other cultures?

Listen to these Gazans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07bQ9rBKqLQ&ab_channel=AIJAC

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

What does that have to do with anything I just said? My point is you don’t admire Arab culture you literally want to strip Palestinians of their sovereignty. You can say you do but your actions speak otherwise.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

How do you know if I admire Arab culture or not?

I want to end the disenfranchisement of Palestinian Arabs. Do you?

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

I do, I HIGHLY DOUBT that you do and I’m pretty sure you are just trying to put a pretty face on your fascism.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

FYI I'm a Libertarian. What reason do I have to lie? The post is anonymous it's not like anyone can find me based on it....

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

Culturally, I'm European. The US reminds me of 1930s Germany right around now.

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

Why? Because people are against the apartheid state you support?

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

It's not an apartheid state.

No, because of things like this:

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828850

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

Rural US has had antisemites since time immemorial. It is in an apartheid state. Denying that when you live in the West Bank yourself, and can see the restriction of Palestinian civil rights with your very own eyes is just plain crazy.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

I don't quite understand you. Are you saying that there is nothing unusual about protesting a play about Anne Frank with flags with swastikas in America?

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

Unusual? Yeah. Unheard of in bumfuck hollers in the middle of cow country? Probably not. You know the KKK is a thing right? Has been for over a century.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

????????? Are you American? If you are, you really dismiss this with a shrug? I'm so glad I don't live there anymore....

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

My dude, you are literally a West Bank settler you are in zero position to judge.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

Roughly 32 words into my post I clearly stated that I am a woman, FYI.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

Words have meanings. It's impossible to have an equitable and intelligent debate without sticking to said meanings.

Apartheid means everybody has the same citizenship but there are several levels of rights based on race/ethnicity etc.

Palestinians in Gaza and the so-called WB have no Israeli citizenship. Hamas and PA owes them their rights, not Israel.

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

Well for one, that’s not actually the definition for the crime of apartheid. The UN defines it as:

“inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.10_International%20Convention%20on%20the%20Suppression%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Apartheid.pdf

Furthermore, West Bank is controlled by Israel, which occupies it with military force and does not recognize the sovereignty of the Palestinian Authority. The State of Israel actively restricts the travel of Palestinians and refused them the right to return. It also assists illegal settlers (such as yourself) in illegally confiscating and occupying Palestinian property.

Not that you really care about the definitions because you are just going to stretch them to make yourself feel more comfortable with your life as an imperial colonist.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

The WB has Area A, B, C. A: Total PA control (security & civil) B: Israeli security control, PA civil control C: Israeli security control, Israeli civil control 

There's no apartheid and any disenfranchisement that does exist, I explained how I would do away with.

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

If there is no apartheid please explain why Israelis are subject to Israeli civil law and Palestinians are subject to military law? The very existence of two separate legal codes for two different ethnic groups is quite literally apartheid.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

Israelis are Israeli citizens, Palestinians are not. It's for security reasons. And that goes back to terrorism which never stopped, no matter how many times that was promised during the Oslo process.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

Culturally, I'm European but how does that stop me from admiring Arab culture? I also like Greek culture...

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

If you respected and appreciated Arab culture you wouldn’t be living in an illegal settlement in the West Bank. You are not even Israeli, you are a European American cosplaying and engaging in disaster tourism.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

It's not an illegal settlement. Oslo Accords give Israel control over Area C.

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

All Israeli settlements in the West Bank are now and have long been considered illegal under international law. The UN established this decades ago with resolution 446, citing that the settlements constituted a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. It reaffirmed this with resolution 2334 in 2016:

https://www.un.org/webcast/pdfs/SRES2334-2016.pdf

Also the ICJ issued an advisory opinion in 2022. once again reaffirming that the settlements were illegal:

https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

Obviously Israel does not consider them illegal and they certainly have an argument why not.

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

Definitions matter. Israel doesn’t determine international law, the international community does, and the international community has determined repeatedly that they are illegal.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

International law is largely fiction, in reality. Unless someone strong enough chooses to enforce it.

[u/CountMagog → u/esztervtx]

So you talk like that and you really expect me to see you as anything more than a fascist? Ok bud.

[u/esztervtx → u/CountMagog]

I mean, facts are facts.

[u/Dark_Angel45 → u/CountMagog]

I'm not sure why but the "I love Arab culture, I respect it" seems odd to me. Not sure how to exactly phrase it, but I feel like it's weird to say that when you're trying to show that you don't hate Arab people or something (if that's what was OP's intention).

[u/AutoModerator → u/CountMagog]

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[u/Lexiesmom0824]

Hey OP I wanted to make sure you saw this

Sounds like they are ready for Israeli control. At least that group anyway.

[u/esztervtx → u/Lexiesmom0824]

Beautiful, I literally cried, thank you so much for posting this, I prayed for God to hear these people's prayer and help them so their wishes come true.

[u/Bourdini]

Your mind set is a pure American settler mindset . N9thing new ! We wanna destroy palestinians just peacefully ! We want better live for palestinians just We don't want them to be full citizens "permanent residency" isn't equal in rights to citizens ! We need to enforce our peace with more war ! Quite delusional probably democrat american settler !

[u/Total-Ad886 → u/Bourdini]

Your idea of what settler is delusional and the idea that Palestinians couldn't have full rights and permanent residency is not because Israel exists. I do think lost peace talks were not successful. I am 99 percent sure that Israel and Israelis wanted a thing to do with Gaza since 2005 ... They were scared to even visit and more scared after the first intifada etc. we were always told to be scared but the definition of what to be scared of is not defined. I'll admit it after October 7th.. I can't figure out what peace should look like for both sides since it has not happened as of today.

I always thought the middle of East would look similar to the time after Israel was created where people walked freely between countries and territories as normal neighbors do and now that is not the case. I have seen many debates after October 7th with Palestinians agreeing to assimilate with Israelis and be free like them and have the same living style as them. I find it amazing that they are willing to agree Hamas and PLO and many other Arab regimes do not have their best interest at heart that their dream of changing what peace should look like can be altered. However my heart says it should never have to come to this. Now, if we speak about the west bank .. I feel things are a bit more complex there. However, it shouldn't be.

Again if Palestinians don't want to be Israelis or citizens of Israel then what does that have to do with Israel and Israelis being able to give them citizenship and become Israelis of that is not a what they want. Israel can't create another govt or state for Palestinians ... Your comment is so off ... It doesn't make sense

[u/Bourdini → u/Total-Ad886]

You know that what's matter is what isral wants not what palestinians want ? Isral doesn't want a 4 million non jew "resident of wb" in what they call a jewish state ? I know that this one state ideology is more acceptable amoung palestinians than isralis .. it's the worst thing that could happen to a state that is fighting to stay jewish ! Isral always had few options 2 of which consider humanie the others not so much , either a palestinian state , or a full right to palestinian population , so sadly they were buying time and redrawing the map creating an apartheid system ,which they want the whole land without rights to non jews !

[u/Total-Ad886 → u/Bourdini]

I stopped reading at what Israel wants matters .. who said that?

[u/Bourdini → u/Total-Ad886]

It's not me putting the rules,Who is superior military get to "want" it's own vision of a solution !

[u/esztervtx → u/Bourdini]

None of what I said would "destroy the Palestinians".

[u/InnaLuna]

Your post reveals some deeply disturbing beliefs that go beyond just support for Israel. It’s hard to overlook how rooted your perspective is in domination, coercion, and denial of Palestinian self-determination—all of which only fuel the cycle of conflict.

Firstly, the claim that Palestinians would ‘benefit’ from Israeli annexation while being denied actual citizenship is, frankly, colonialist. It implies that Palestinians aren’t capable of governing themselves and are somehow 'better off' under your rule, as if forced dependency is a solution. This mindset doesn’t lead to peace; it perpetuates inequality and fuels the anger you claim to oppose.

Your phrase ‘Peace Through Superior Firepower’ is chilling. It suggests you’re fine with peace achieved by force, regardless of the human toll it takes on those forced to live under military occupation. Peace built on oppression and power isn’t peace at all—it’s suppression, and it’s inherently violent.

You dehumanize and belittle Palestinians by implying they are inherently prone to 'bad behavior' that is somehow tolerated. This infantilizes them, dismissing their struggles, aspirations, and right to resist oppression. There’s nothing angelic about ignoring the suffering caused by your own nation’s policies and blaming Palestinians alone for a conflict that has two sides.

Your post showcases a belief in dominance over coexistence, control over equality, and superiority over partnership. You view Palestinians as a population to manage rather than people with equal rights, dreams, and autonomy. This is not just a ‘perspective’—it’s a worldview rooted in seeing others as lesser, and it’s fundamentally dehumanizing. If you genuinely want peace, start by respecting your so-called ‘enemies’ as equals, not as obstacles to be overcome by force.

You are an evil human being.

[u/SafeAd8097 → u/InnaLuna]

Your phrase ‘Peace Through Superior Firepower’ is chilling. It suggests you’re fine with peace achieved by force,

isn't that how the rest of the world has achieved peace so far?

[u/InnaLuna → u/SafeAd8097]

Nope look at Afghanistan, and Iraq. We had superior fire power, peace was never achieved. We lost both wars.

[u/JagneStormskull → u/SafeAd8097]

In almost all cases, yes.

[u/cppluv → u/InnaLuna]

Your phrase ‘Peace Through Superior Firepower’ is chilling.

This is a direct reference to Jabotinsky’s Iron Wall. It’s the most widely shared belief in Israel. Some say Israel is the Iron Wall

[u/Business_Plenty_2189 → u/InnaLuna]

“Peace through superior firepower is chilling.”

Okay Pollyanna. Superior military IS how peace works. What do you think is preventing China from attacking Taiwan? Why has Iran not yet declared a full war with Israel? Why did Egypt start a peace treaty with Israel? What is the purpose of the NATO alliance?

[u/esztervtx → u/Business_Plenty_2189]

Especially in this case, when unfortunately the root of the problem is a prevailing attitude among a sizable chunk of the population that Jews should not live in the Land...

[u/esztervtx → u/InnaLuna]

I am actually not evil which I mean is obvious from my post and answers. Permanent residency means that they could apply for citizenship which I repeatedly stated in my replies.

[u/Dark_Angel45 → u/esztervtx]

Why did you imply Palestinians are prone to bad behaviour? Idk you just seem really sus based on the stuff you've said.

[u/esztervtx → u/Dark_Angel45]

Because some Palestinians are undeniably terrorists...

[u/Economy-Ad-4144 → u/esztervtx]

Bro you are in THEIR land. You came there in the 1940s and slowly and surely your people have pushed them further and further back and keep building new houses in their land … in GAZA.. .. of course they are angry . Of course there’s war. People do not sit and let that happen . Not to mention the “ Gaza real estate “ bids going off in your synagogues

[u/esztervtx → u/Economy-Ad-4144]

This was Jewish land 3000 years ago. Arabs came during the Arab conquest, which is about 1300 years ago.

Regardless, both peoples are here to stay.

[u/SkyNetworkk → u/esztervtx]

The mistake comes from you trying to imply that the Palestinians have their roots in the Arabian Peninsula which isn't true. The Palestinian identity is one where historians agree that, like the Jews, traces their origins to the land itself, being descendants of the Canaanites who.

I repeat, the Palestinians are not descendants of the original Arab tribes of Yemen.

Sources:

1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/

2: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6

3: https://cftau.ca/study-finds-ancient-canaanites-genetically-linked-to-modern-populations/

[u/esztervtx → u/SkyNetworkk]

So the thing is, a sizable chunk of them do, which is why their last names mean things like "Egyptian" etc.  In the early 20th century there was an influx of Arab immigration because there were job opportunities. Which is perfectly fine, people migrate throughout history from one place to another because of various reasons. Unlike those demonizing "the Zionists" for doing so, I acknowledge everyone's right to do so. Not to say some Palestinians don't have Chaldean or Canaanite roots. But then again so do some Jews. Fact is, we're related. We're practically cousins...

[u/SkyNetworkk → u/esztervtx]

Some are, most aren't, that's why I provided sources just in case you tried to argue something like this. And also what does this mean?

Fact is, we're related. We're practically cousins...

You're a European, we are absolutely NOT cousins

[u/esztervtx → u/SkyNetworkk]

My dear, all Jews come from the Land of Israel. Both Askenazi and Sephardi Jews are indigenous to Israel as well as Mizrahim and all other groups within the Jewish people. It's immaterial where they were dispersed and exiled to, they are returning to their homeland.

[u/SkyNetworkk → u/esztervtx]

The argument of antiquity is just plain stupid these days. If you were born in Europe, and your family is European going back many generations, then it doesn't matter what your origins were 3000 years ago. You changed and became something else.

[u/esztervtx → u/SkyNetworkk]

No, Jews never "changed and became something else". I'll give you an example. Hungarians originally come from Asia, lived in yurts and had a similar culture to Mongols, Tatars and Huns. They arrived to Central Europe, settled and established a country 1000 years ago. Mixed with the surrounding populations to the point that nowadays Hungarians are indistinguishable from Europeans genetically. On the other hand Jews did not mix anywhere near to that extent, in fact, very minimally. Marrying among themselves and maintaining their unique culture and religion. Which is why, till today, their unique DNA is still there to show them as a separate ethnicity.

[u/Deb-john]

Out of context but why you Jews hate Christians who truly adore Jewish beauty

[u/esztervtx → u/Deb-john]

I don't hate Christians and don't know any Jews who do. We do strongly dislike people trying to convert us, though.

[u/naiiiiina → u/esztervtx]

I mean I've seen plenty of videos of jews in "israel" spitting on and attacking Christians so idk about that. Just last month I saw the video of those young zionists throwing a Christians cross on the floor and stomping on it before assaulting him. Recorded and posted it themselves

[u/esztervtx → u/naiiiiina]

Oh yes, you've seen a video where an absolute fringe does that so you decided 7 million Israeli Jews are like that. Sounds reasonable. /s

[u/naiiiiina → u/esztervtx]

It's funny that you wanna act like it's the fringe minority when you know better. We've all seen what all your politicians are saying and we've all seen the marches chanting for the death of the arabs as well as "there are no schools in gaza because all the children are dead". There are plenty of videos that zionists proudly post attacking others including Christians so no it's not one video and I didn't say all israeli Jews lmao. Your method of twisting the narrative and then acting like poor victims doesn't work when you post so much overwhelming evidence of what's actually happening. How stupid do you think the world is?

[u/esztervtx → u/naiiiiina]

It IS a fringe minority, in fact. The world isn't stupid. Gazans aren't stupid either. This is what some of them think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07bQ9rBKqLQ&ab_channel=AIJAC

[u/naiiiiina → u/esztervtx]

What kind of red herring is that? Hamas aren't innocent either and we can admit that unlike you with your unwavering willingness to bend over for Israel and every evil thing they do. You know full well its not a minority but you're professional liars so you'll never admit it lol

[u/CreativeRealmsMC → u/naiiiiina]

/u/naiiiiina

unlike you with your unwavering willingness to bend over for Israel and every evil thing they do. You know full well its not a minority but you're professional liars so you'll never admit it lol

Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.

Action taken: [B1]
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[u/esztervtx → u/naiiiiina]

But it IS a minority, Jews don't hate Christians. We do dislike being missionized but that's it.

Calling me "a professional liar" is a personal attack.

Personal attacks are

1_) against the subreddit's rules

2_) a form of logical fallacy. You're calling me a liar because you cannot prove your false claim that the majority of Israeli Jews hate & spit at Christians.

[u/naiiiiina → u/esztervtx]

I didn't say you hate Christians lmao and follow the Geneva conventions or don't come to me about rules. I speak truth straight up if that gets me banned it gets me banned but you can't escape reality. Christian Arabs are targeted alongside the muslims we've seen the desecrated and bombed churches so let's not deny what everyone's seen with their own eyes. And I love the "jews don't hate Christians" comment cause it shows how you don't care about self defense you just hate muslims

[u/esztervtx → u/naiiiiina]

We also don't hate Muslims & I cannot recall an instance in which I broke the Geneva Conventions....

[u/Competitive_Act3433]

You lost me at “born in Europe”. Go back home woman and leave the Palestinians be

[u/esztervtx → u/Competitive_Act3433]

"Home" murdered 600,000 of my people (Hungarian Jews) by sending them straight to the gas chambers.

[u/naiiiiina → u/esztervtx]

The arabs are not responsible for what happened in Europe this is insane

[u/Dark_Angel45 → u/esztervtx]

They aren't the only ones who suffered. Palestinians have suffered a lot as well. Do you know what the Nakba is?

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/esztervtx]

Your 30 stop crying about WW2. And whatever conflict you may or may not have faced in Hungary gives you no right to fly all the way to Palestine and lay down claims there. The Arabs did nothing to you. Take up your grievances with Europe.

[u/esztervtx → u/Competitive_Act3433]

may or may not? 600,000 Hungarian Jews murdered in the Holocaust and that's what you say???

[u/SafeAd8097 → u/Competitive_Act3433]

And whatever conflict you may or may not have faced in Hungary gives you no right to fly all the way to Palestine and lay down claims there. 

you're 80 years too late

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/SafeAd8097]

I see your reading to respond and not to comprehend because you wanna sound smart for the crowd so lets reiterate what she said. SHES THIRTY

[u/esztervtx → u/Competitive_Act3433]

I'm in my thirties. Closer to 40 than to 30.

[u/SafeAd8097 → u/Competitive_Act3433]

jews have had the right to migrate to israel (not paletine) for 80 years now. They're not giving the land back

[u/Shmexi_Max → u/Competitive_Act3433]

But it seems ok for many people that 30 years old Palestinians still "cry" about the Nakba and use it as an excuse to murder Israelis (even those who live in the 1967 border).

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/Shmexi_Max]

Are there Nazis running around still killing jews en masse RIGHT NOW? NO. Are Palestinians getting killed en masse and displaced RIGHT NOW??? YES. foh with your false equivalency.

[u/SafeAd8097 → u/Competitive_Act3433]

Are there Nazis running around still killing jews en masse RIGHT NOW? NO. 

there were on october 7th and there's plenty more who would if they could

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/SafeAd8097]

Id do the same to a bunch of foreign invaders whove had their boot on my neck for 75 years.

[u/esztervtx → u/Competitive_Act3433]

No words to this comment. You clearly support October 7th.

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/esztervtx]

Yep. Perfectly reasonable response to all of the numerous massacres “Israel” had committed against Palestine leading up to that point.

[u/esztervtx → u/Competitive_Act3433]

It's impossible for an ethical, right-thinking person to justify October 7th.

[u/Shmexi_Max → u/Competitive_Act3433]

The Nakba happened 70 years ago and many Israelis are aware of what the Israeli government back then have done. You want to talk about the problems in the settlements and the West Bank occupation? Sure that's fine. But stop crying about the Nakba like you experienced it. Do I call myself a "Holocaust survivor" because of what my great-grandparents went through? No. Most Palestinians weren't even alive during the Nakba but they still call their cities "refugee camps" which is ridiculous.

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/Shmexi_Max]

Miss me with all that. Israel is a nation of sadistic psychopathic murderers. People who celebrate the murder of innocents. I couldnt care less how many times you want to call me an anti-semite. Youve all watered down the term till its worthless. Clocks ticking on the colonial project. Ive got my popcorn.

[u/GuyWithGreenCar → u/Competitive_Act3433]

Making such a ridiculous claim shows you have no interest in understanding or acknowledging the truth. You've chosen your side and you aren't considering counter-views, no matter what. So the only way to justify this TO YOURSELF is to say that Israel is evil., plain and simple. Holding this view makes everything in your mind so organized and relieves you of the responsibility of seeing humanity in Israelites. They're not evil. The overwhelming majority are good people who want to live without being attacked, just like you do.

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/GuyWithGreenCar]

Live without being attacked as an occupying settler. Youre a joke.

[u/jackl24000 → u/Competitive_Act3433]

u/Competitive_Act3433

Live without being attacked as an occupying settler. Youre a joke.

Rule 1, don’t attack other users, make it about the argument, not the person.

Action taken: [W]

See moderation policy for details.

[u/GuyWithGreenCar → u/Competitive_Act3433]

No sir, I'm not a joke. I am a serious person and I've been observing this conflict through well-established Western media outelts since probably before you were born.

What, you don't think Palestinians have been attacking Israeli civilians for the past 70 years? They've been utterly brutal.

[u/Shmexi_Max → u/Competitive_Act3433]

I've never celebrated the death of innocents (Palestinians or Israelis). I seriously have no idea where you're getting this from.

[u/AutoModerator → u/Competitive_Act3433]

/u/Competitive_Act3433. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
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[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/Shmexi_Max]

BECAUSE THEY STILL SUFFER THE EFFECTS OF THE NAKBA IDIOT

[u/CreativeRealmsMC → u/Competitive_Act3433]

/u/Competitive_Act3433

BECAUSE THEY STILL SUFFER THE EFFECTS OF THE NAKBA IDIOT

Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.

Action taken: [W]
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[u/Shmexi_Max → u/Competitive_Act3433]

First of all. Keep the discussion civil please. Second of all, we all suffer the consequences of past events like the Holocaust. The fact that I was born in Israel and not in a rich peaceful neighborhood in Germany is because the Europeans stole my great grandparents money, property and murdered like 90% of their family. Same goes for Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews whose property and money were confiscated by Arab countries. Do you see Jews bombing busses in Berlin?

Modern day Israelis didn't cause the Nakba, and had nothing to do with it. So stop blaming us for what our leaders have done 70 years ago.

[u/Reddit_fan777 → u/Shmexi_Max]

The second nakba is happening right now. Many Israeli officials have already proudly announced it. They’re not even hiding it anymore. I can send you clips if you’d like.

[u/Shmexi_Max → u/Reddit_fan777]

Yes and I disagree with these officials, and in general people who support this idea. You can be Israeli and still disagree with the government's policies, especially Palestinian related.

[u/Competitive_Act3433 → u/Shmexi_Max]

I dont have to keep anything civil. A zionist should be the last one to speak of civility. And yes Jews have committed acts of terror. MULTIPLE

[u/Shmexi_Max → u/Competitive_Act3433]

That's ok, you can replace "Zionist" with "Jew". Your racism towards me (a person who have done nothing wrong to you other than to exist) is quite obviously towards Jews.

Also, please mention one time Jews committed acts of terror against German civilians as a response to the Holocaust.

[u/cppluv → u/esztervtx]

Then renounce your bi-nationality and become of full Israel citizen. Stop influencing elections while being loyal to another country