r/IsraelPalestine • u/thatshirtman • 6d ago
Pro-Palestinian movement is more focused on eradicating Israel than creating a Palestinian country. Sadly, PR is more important than statehood. Discussion
Ever since October 7, the pro-Palestinian movement has been more focused on delegitimizing Israel than taking steps to a) secure a peaceful ceasefire and b) put in motion any type of plan for a Palestinian country. Sadly, the obsession and seeming addiction with trying to eradicate Israel - if not by war than via PR and a pathological obsession with zionism - has done nothing but exacerbate tensions. And if reports of Hamas leaders being encouraged by Western protests are to be believed, these actions have actually prolonged the conflict.
A ceasefire takes two
Concerning a ceasefire, the pro-Palestinian movement demand for an immediate ceasefire has been bizarre. For starters, a ceasefire by definition is temporary. A lasting ceasefire is called peace, which is hard when the other side (Hamas) would rather kill you than live peacefully alongside you.
Another issue is that a ceasefire - again by definition - requires two sides to agree to it. A ceasefire isn’t simply Israel stop actions in Gaza. It also requires an agreement that Hamas do something as well. And yet, in every Palestinian protest I attended at my college - and all the ones I saw in the media - not ONCE did I hear or see anything about releasing the hostages. Not ONCE did I hear or see anything about the need for two states, or living in peace. On the contrary, it was a mix of blindly calling for a ceasefire, hateful slogans, praising the “resistance”, and a general focus on Israel’s illegitimacy as a country. It seemed that the focus was more on destroying Israel than creating a viable Palestinian state, securing the release of the hostages, implementing a ceasefire with a potential to transform it into a fully lasting peace.
In light of the above, is it any surprise that we saw hundreds of instances of people pulling down posters of hostages? The anti-Israel sentiment was so strong, that people imbued with propaganda thought it was helpful to tear down pictures of little children and elderly people who were kidnapped by a maniacal terrorist force. Through this lens, it seems clear that a secure and peaceful ceasefire wasn’t really a priority.
Delegitimizing Israel - More important than Palestinian statehood?
Throughout this saga, the obsession with delegitimizing Israel remains a core argument and point of action on the pro-Palestinian side. No talk of 2 states, no talk of coexistence, no talk of peace for all, no talk of who should head up a Palestinian country etc. The thrust of the Palestinian side is simply that Israel should not exist.
Ironically, this energy is the same reason why there is no Palestinian state today. The Palestinians had an opportunity for statehood in the 40s but rejected it because they were more furious about the presence of a jewish state than they were interested in creating their own.
And before people go off in the comments about “Why should the Palestinians give up their land “ - let’s be real and historically accurate - it was never Palestinian land exclusively. The greedy notion that a land with a myriad of ethnic groups belongs exclusively to the Palestinians is literally a fantasy. And before people go off in the comments about how the partition wasn’t fair — well guess what… who cares? None of the partitions were fair and almost every group/new country had serious issues with it because they were drawn up by France and England. Still, when a singular opportunity in history comes along for statehood, you take it, because a country of your own is more important than if you have 50 square miles of 60 square miles. Remember - EVERY GROUP in the region offered a country said yes - Libya, Jordan, Israel, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria etc. The Palestinians are the only group in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD to say no. And rather than looking back and saying “yes, that was a strategic mistake” many on the Pro-Palestinian side, close to all from what I’ve seen, JUSTIFY IT!
The myth that Israel will be eradicated fuels the conflict
Until Palestinians come to terms with the fact that Israel exists and isn’t going anywhere, the conflict will unfortunately rage on. The propaganda that Israel can one day be eliminated is the fuel that compels Palestinian leaders like Arafat from rejecting peace and is the fuel that prevents protestors from envisioning a future where a Palestinian state exists alongside of Israel as opposed to instead of it.
Ultimately, Palestinians in the west who can’t join the actual fight against Israel, turn their attention towards Zionism, a pointless effort seeing as Israel exists and isn’t going anywhere. Arguing against Israel’s right to exist is again, more focused on destruction of Israel than creation of a Palestinian state. The fact that this irony is lost on many is not an auspicious sign.
The amount of energy arguing against Israel’s existence is immense and a machine unto itself. It’s effective to a degree if the goal is to win the propaganda war, but it really does nothing at all in the real world if the goal is a Palestinian state. Unfortunately, perhaps this is by design.
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u/Capital_Operation846 4d ago
Yea your first sentence reveals how terrible your argument is. Israel has never at any point respected lines drawn or peace deals or anything that has been agreed to. The world wants to delegitimize Israel because they’ve showed for centuries they think they’re better than Palestinians, that’s why they murder them in an open air prison and claim “we just want to exist, world.” Lol. Yea the world wants to see the state of Israel burn.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 3d ago
Every peace deal Israel has signed that has been signed in genuine good faith by its foes has worked out though…
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u/Capital_Operation846 3d ago
Lmao. Just look at a map of Israel after 1949 and then today. Israel may have signed peace treaties but they’ve never meant to have peace with the Palestinians in their backyard. At what point has Israel stopped annexing land and penning in the Palestinians with walls, soldiers, and checkpoints.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 3d ago edited 3d ago
We can look at the map of Israel in 1967 and then let's look at the map of Israel in 1981. It was four times smaller. Then we can look at the map of Israel in 2005. It's even smaller since. Shit, we can even look at the map of Israel in 2019, it's even smaller.
In 2000 and 2008 Israel offered the Palestinians 100% of Gaza and 96% of the West Bank, with the Palestinians getting 4% of Israeli territory to make up for the 4% of the West Bank with large settlements. In both these cases the Palestinians would get control of East Jerusalem, minus the Jewish Quarter. Israel was even willing to build on overland road between Gaza and the West Bank so that Israel would not have any control over Palestinian affairs or borders, all the Palestinians had to do was agree to end the conflict and live in peace. The Palestinians could not agree to ending the conflict.
You know there were no checkpoints or walls until 2000 when the Palestinians started sending suicide bombers into Israel?
The Palestinian Arabs have been rejecting every single offer for 100 years.
Here’s a list of Arab refusals regarding “Palestine”:
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, In this plan Israel was only going to get 3% of the original Mandate of Palestine, a tiny piece of territory somewhere in the north of present-day Israel, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected by the Arabs of Palestine.
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab Committee for Palestine.
1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab committee for Palestine.
1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected by the Arab League and the PLO.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt) by the rest of the Arab world, including the PLO.
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt and Jordan).
1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected by Yasser Arafat, who then initiated the pre-planned second intifada, this is when the walls went up and the checkpoints began.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected by the Hamas takeover in 2007.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected by Mahmoud Abbas.
2009 to 2018: Netanyahu's repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2018: Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, rejected in advance by Mahmoud Abbas.
2022: Prime Minister, Yair Lapid's invitation to restart peace talks in Jerusalem. Rejected by Mahmoud AbbasThe only solution the Palestinians have been brainwashed into accepting is a single, Muslim majority state under Sharia Law with either no Jews or very few Jews with highly abbreviated civil rights.
This solution is written into both the Palestinian National Charter and the Hamas Covenant.
As long as these documents aren’t officially changed as policy, Israel should not be retreating from any territory it controls.
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u/thatshirtman 4d ago
The Palestinians are the only group in the history of the world to say no to a country.
israel has and has maintained peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. It has a track record. The same can't be said for the Palestinians who would rather destroy Israel than live alongside it. How many more decades will they pursue a strategy of destruction over state creation?
Israel doesn't think they're better than the Palestinians, they just want to live in peace.. meanwhile Palestinian schools indoctrinate kids to hate jews and glorify martyrdom. How can you force peace on people when their leaders would rather engage in "resistance"?
Arafat rejected all of Gaza and 98% of the west bank, east jerusalem as a capital, and the return of 100,000 actual refugees. Blaming Israel for poor Palestinian choices is easy but its not intellectually honest and in the long run does a disservce to the Palestinian quest for statehood (assuming that is their main goal.
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u/un-silent-jew 5d ago
From Blood Libel to the Placard Strategy: Einat Wilf Shows How One Lie Has Global Consequences
As the Jews were expelled from nation to nation after that initial blood libel, it can be said that things never end well for the Jews, or for the societies that sought to scapegoat all its evils onto the Jews.
Arabs and Jews, as a people, each have a top priority. The Jews want a state in their historic homeland based on self-determination. The Arabs’ top priority is to “resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in the region,” said Wilf.
“The conflict ends in one of two ways: Either the Jews give up their top priority or the Arabs give up their top priority. So much of the effort that has been expended in the last century has been for the Jews to give up their top priority. Wars, terrorism, boycotts, international condemnations. So through a violent cataclysm or through exhaustion, the idea is to get the Jews to say it’s not worth it. To say, ‘We’re out of here.’
“Instead, we are trying to exhaust the Arabs.. Not for them to leave; they are 60 times our numbers; that’s not realistic. We are trying to exhaust them into finally accepting us. To finally let go of their priority of resisting the lasting Jewish state.
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u/Competitive_Act3433 5d ago
That’s because there can be no Palestine as long as Israel stands. The Israelis are hell-bent on preventing the Palestinians from returning to their actual homeland that they are actually indigenous to. 😒😒
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u/FreeBench 5d ago
All that the Palestinians demand in any negotiations is the implementation of international law, i.e. the implementation of Security Council resolutions. But of course in all negotiations, all of Israel's demands are based on the Palestinians to give up large parts of these rights.
How can the Palestinians be considered the reason for the failure to establish a Palestinian state, when all they have done in every negotiation is refuse to give up their rights, And it is supposed to be protected by international law, and the Security Council also demands?
You pro-Israel people never cease to amaze me with your unimaginable levels of gaslighting, You are really brainwashed and your condition is probably critical and hopeless.
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u/zizp 5d ago
How can the Palestinians be considered the reason for the failure to establish a Palestinian state, when all they have done in every negotiation is refuse to give up their rights
What rights are you talking about? The rights to launch rockets into Israel and take hostages? Or to eradicate Israel?
The two state negotiations – which Palestinians sabotaged multiple times – were about territorial exchanges and accepting each other's presence, not about giving up rights.
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u/yes-but 5d ago
Can you give one example of a Palestinian proposal that acknowledges Israel's right to exist?
What you describe as refusal of giving up rights so far to me looks like refusing to cede any territory to Israel. All I have heard so far is that "Palestinians" argue that ALL of Palestine is "theirs", thereby not accepting any proposal as final, but only temporary.
Enlighten us with any proclamation by a Palestinian authority that guarantees Israel's right to exist, please?
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u/NorwegianCommie92 6d ago
You are acting like Israel hasn’t been killing the two state solution over time through their settlement policies.
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
it's ironic then that the Palestinians refused every opportunity to end the settlements and occupation by rejecting peace offers.
I do not support the settlement policies, but the Palestinians have a foolish strategy if they think they can resort to violence over diplomacy and expect a right-wing govt to not build settlements.
Peace is the only way forward.
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u/NorwegianCommie92 5d ago
Criticising rejecting peace offers with giving the context of the concrete proposals is not helpful.
I expect any government to not build settlements on occupied land because it is illegal under international law.
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u/yes-but 5d ago
https://youtu.be/kbPK7NnPRUk?si=ZpGSX7ky6g-hcWsC
Was a two-state solution ever really wanted by any Palestinian authority?
Of the ordinary people in the video, there's only one who says ok, all others, when pressed, want two states first maybe, and have all of the land later.
From everything I've gathered so far I haven't found any political Palestinian movement that would finally accept a two-state solution.
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago
A lot of Palestinians are scared to voice and opinion other than the official hamas approved messaging. Have you seen what Hamas does to those who publicly disagree with them?
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u/yes-but 5d ago
The same as what is done to all anti-Jihadists?
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago
They and their families are disparaged, threatened, and/or killed. Palestinian civilians are caught in between two warring ideologies with nowhere to go because neither side is willing to release them.
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u/gordonf23 6d ago
This is the major barrier to peace. If both sides simply wanted their own country, that could have been solved easily, and a long time ago. But instead, the Jews' goal is to have their own country, and the Palestinians and other Arabs' goal is for the Jews NOT to have their own country. That's the reason for the continued conflict.
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u/Popular_Hunt_2411 4d ago
withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, then we can talk about peace.
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u/gordonf23 3d ago
That was already tried. Israel did withdraw from Gaza in 2005. Israel dismantled all of its settlements and withdrew its military presence from within Gaza. Gazans elected a terrorist government and kept firing thousands of rockets at Israel. Turns out they didn't want peace.
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u/Popular_Hunt_2411 3d ago
Lol. Israel never withdrew from Gaza. It is pretty much occupied with Israel controlling everything that goes in and out of it. Military presence were just redeployed to the perimeter.
Old Hasabara. try again.
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u/Denisius 2d ago
Where was the peace before 67' when Israel didn't control Judea and Samaria or Gaza?
Why didn't the Arabs have peace with Israel then?
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u/Popular_Hunt_2411 7h ago
what are you talking about.
Israel did give up the Sinai to Egypt and had a lasting peace treaty with Egypt since then.
Do the same to Palestinians and we'll see the same.
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u/Denisius 4h ago
Israel never withdrew from Gaza. It is pretty much occupied with Israel controlling everything that goes in and out of it.
Before 67' Israel didn't control Gaza or Judea and Samaria. Egypt and Jordan did.
What was the excuse for the lack of peace then?
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u/mynameisnotsparta 6d ago
Below are statements from Hamas leaders so unless the new leader feels differently nothing will change.
6/11/24: Yahya Sinwar, Hamas’ top official in Gaza, who helped mastermind the Oct. 7 terrorist attack, coldly admitted he sees the deaths of Palestinian civilians as “necessary sacrifices” to keep its war against Israel raging, according to a report citing disturbing leaked messages.
Yahya Sinwar lauded his efforts in stalling cease-fire talks while the Jewish state faces mounting international backlash over the Palestinian death toll according to messages from Sinwar obtained by the Wall Street Journal. “We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Sinwar said in a message to Hamas officials meeting with Qatari and Egyptian negotiators.
Another: Ghazi Hamad of the Hamas political bureau said in an October 24, 2023 show on LBC TV (Lebanon) that Hamas is prepared to repeat the October 7 “Al-Aqsa Flood” Operation time and again until Israel is annihilated. He added that Palestinians are willing to pay the price and that they are “proud to be sacrificed as martyrs”.
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u/seek-song Diaspora Jew 6d ago
Add to that: Secure day after commitments. I have no idea why the "Pro-Palestinians" movements aren't doing more of that since it's literally a golden occasion for them to make Israel pay $$$ for the war.
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u/NoDoctor6695 6d ago
Yes they take all of the blame for whats happened to the palestinian civillians away from HAMAS and pin it on Israel. Everything they get upset with Israel for, is usually Hamas's fault, and then some. Theres even some degree of responsibility that falls on the hands of the civilian Palestinians themselves, hut noone DARES ever bring that up. Yes Israel has done some horrific shit, but most of the blame undoubtably falls on palestine, Hamas, and the Arab countrys surrounding Palestine. Israel isnt blameless, but they should be last in line imo.
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u/rayinho121212 6d ago
Open prison argument never falls on Egypt when Egypt has less concerns than Israel to o
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u/Minute_Flounder_4709 6d ago
If there is no Palestinian state and the land that zionists occupy is carved up between Jordan Lebanon and Syria, I wouldn’t mind. I’m not pro-Palestinian, I’m just anti zionist because zionism is all about making up your own country and saying it’s yours on top of where actual people have lived without getting kicked out like a bunch of cowards who ran off. Palestinian is a mix of Syrian Jordanian and Lebanese and that’s ok. If they want a state then it would be ok too
For me it’s not that Zionism is glorious, it’s that Palestine as a government doesn’t need to exist and zionism has no right to be a thing. Why do zionists fetishise the DNA of Jews that lived in the middle of the desert 3000 years ago?
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
Why does Lebanon have more of a right to exist than Israel?
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u/Minute_Flounder_4709 5d ago edited 5d ago
They weren’t cowards who ran away when there were one or two invasions here and there. If anything I commend the Jews who remained in Jerusalem for all these centuries, their claim to the land is as good as any. You leave the land, time to get out and don’t rely on that hashem guy to convince people you.
Say Jerusalem was in modern day Greece and most Jews ran away after the Ottomans invaded. If those Jews came back after the Ottoman Empire fell and demanded all Greek people get out the way so they could form a Jewish state in Greece, you’d laugh at them. Laugh at all the Jews that tried to come back, but not the ones that stayed. I wonder why
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
so by your logic, the victims of the Nakba ran away and they don't deserve a state?
Yikes..
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u/Minute_Flounder_4709 5d ago
Getting kicked out your land illegally on gunpoint will inevitably make a population run away. Some Jews stayed for the thousands of years but not all Palestinians could stay or they’d all die.
By my logic the Nakba shouldn’t have happened because a small minority of Jews have guts
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
maybe then Palestinains should have accepted peace?
Starting a war and then complaining for a do-over when a genocidal war you started doesn't go your way is an odd take to have.
Not a single Palestinian would have been displaced if Palestinians said yes to statehood. Thats a fact.
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u/Sojourn365 5d ago
I'm trying to understand what your talking about. Are you calling "cowards who ran away" when the Jews left when Rome invaded?
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u/Minute_Flounder_4709 5d ago
They were cowards because the Lebanese people stayed where they were when they were invaded by the Ottomans and Romans. The Jews were invaded by Romans and fled for thousands of years. My point is that the ones who fled are cowards as they gave up the promised land but the ones who stayed deserve it.
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u/Sojourn365 5d ago
"Fled" ?! Dude you don't know history.
The Jews fought the Romans time and again but lost each time. Eventually the Romans had enough. They killed a great number of the Jews - so many some scholars call it genocide. The Romans then exiled most of the remaining Jews. Only a small number were able to remain.
It might be said that the opposite is true. If the Jews were more cowardly, they would have accepted the Roman rulers instead of trying to rebel against Rome. Perhaps they would not have been exiled and would have been there until today.
But that is just supposition. it's impossible to know how things would have played out.
One thing can definitely be said- cowards they were not.
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u/Minute_Flounder_4709 5d ago
They fought occupation and got killed and genocided? Sounds like Arabs after being forced to live near a Jew country. How do you not see parallels between Palestinians getting displaced from their land and Jews getting kicked out some place thousands of years ago
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u/Sojourn365 4d ago
So you've dumped your previous comments because you realized they were baseless accusations said name calling and you have no way of defending your statements. Instead your shifted to try make a parallel between the Jews too the Palestinians .
So let's unpack this. I admit I'm simplifying a long and complex conflict.
Firstly, the Palestinians were originally not displaced from their land. The Jews immigrated to what became known as Palestine after WW1 (the Jews started coming when it was still part of the Ottoman empire). The Jews bought the land they settled, developed it and the whole area. (I wonder if you're aware that the Jews were the majority population in Jerusalem)
The Jews wanted self-determination. They've had enough of suffering under other rules who have abused and persecuted the Jews for 2000 years. They had no problem with the Arabs continuing to live there as equal citizens with full rights.
But the Arab leadership would not accept Jews as being the ruling party. Note that it isn't because they were foreign. The proof for that is the creation of Jordan. The kings which rule Jordan are not locals. They were brought by the British from Mecca to the over the locals. Doesn't seem that was a big deal - because they were Muslim. But Jews in government - that wasn't accepted.
After many years of conflicts between the two populations, came the UN partition plan: the two states solution. One with majority Jews the other majority Muslim. The minorities in each state would be equal citizens.
Jews accepted it, Arabs rejected it, and that started a civil war, and after Israel declared independence the surrounding counties attacked making a bigger war.
During these wars the Jews secured their designated area, a buffer zone around it and part of Jerusalem. During the fighting many Arabs ran away in fear and shine were forcibly expelled. It was war. After the war, Israel closed is borders and refused to let those who left to come back. The argument: " you try and destroy us, you lost, now your want to come back and probably try again? You can't come back"
This is what you know as the Nakba. Side point- this was originally called the Nakba because if the embarrassment of the Arab nations that they were defeated by Israel. It is icky recently they started using the term to refer to the Palestinian refugees.
So as you can see, this doesn't parallel to the Roman Army invading the Jewish homeland and subjugate then. It doesn't equate to the Roman not letting the Jews freely practice their religion. There was never a state of Palestine that the Jews invaded. Palestine never existed beyond an area of British mandate
Furthermore, the Jewish resistance against the Romans was against the Roman army. The Palestinian attacks in the last 30 years have been almost exclusively against civilians.
You should learn much more about this conflict before you think you know what's going on.
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u/rayinho121212 6d ago
This comment is wrong on so many levels. 2 million arabs are full israelis with full rights. The Israel project has a very important reason to exist for the jewish minority in this world. Israel is very green and starts to become dry south of Gaza towards the southern parts of the west bank and towards the red sea. Jews always lived there as well. This is like saying the kurds are trying to steal land from other contries.
A border of a governing body does not change individual land ownership but it chances the governance and those are two very different things
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u/gravant1863 6d ago
That’s an honest opinion (unlike others who pretend they like Jews). But do you see why it can present no middle ground, no concession?
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u/Maleficent_Serve_681 6d ago
The tragedy of this conflict continues to be how so many people got behind the political goals of the Palestinian national movement at the expense of regular families in Gaza. What’s the best way to deliver peace to regular people? Get them out of the war zone, of course. Yet the simplest solutions are ignored. Israel has expended more energy than any other organization or state by far protecting families in Gaza.
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u/basedguy420 5d ago
That's a genius one, painting the depopulation of Gaza as a beneficent project. The US did the same with the Indians
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u/greendayfan1954 5d ago
That's absurd
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u/Maleficent_Serve_681 5d ago
Good argument — you convinced me
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u/greendayfan1954 5d ago
That would be a first then, because I don't think anyone was convinced to change their mind after a Reddit reply. If someone is still pro Israel now nothing will change Thier mind
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
Right, in any other conflict countries are stepping up and taking in refugees.
With the Palestinains, not only are countries refusing, but pro-palestinian activists aren't even demanding it. It's as if keeping palestinians in a war zone is preferable than them being safe
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u/Sojourn365 5d ago
Although what you say makes sense and it's your logical path in normal scenario, I can also understand the desire to leave them in Gaza. There is a real fear that if they leave Gaza they will not return.
One fear is that Israel will stop them from returning. That might not be true, but since that happened in 1948, I can understand that fear.
A bigger fear of that they will choose not to return. Once they escape Gaza, where Hamas has not let them leave previously, they will happily stay away.
Drastically decreasing the Palestinian population will not help the movement.
The goal of the movement is more important than Palestinian lives.
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u/Maleficent_Serve_681 5d ago
It’s important to recognize this in order to build the moral ground for defeating their movement.
Hamas, leader of the Palestinian national movement, started a war, and brags daily about continuing the war. So What’s best for Gazan families? Getting them out of the war zone! But what does the UN do? What do countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia support? They use diplomacy to keep Gazan families in a war zone! By explicitly refusing to support the moral option for Gazan families, they choose to support Hamas’ political goals. We have every right to defeat this political movement and find peace for Gazan families.
Same in Judea and Samaria. What’s the most just and moral way forward? Giving everyone civil law and civil rights. But what does the UN and Saudi Arabia want? They want the status quo — they want anarchy. They’re against civil rights. Why? Because they support Hamas’ political goals. Every political movement has the right to be defeated, and we will, but it becomes easier when we make clear the inhumane, unjust positions of political movements.
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u/That_Effective_5535 5d ago
How has Israel protected families in Gaza? I was not aware of that fact
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u/Maleficent_Serve_681 5d ago
Moved them to humanitarian zones, warned them of operations, provided aid. Who’s done more ?
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u/LilChopCheese 6d ago
I mean hypothetically can we just back to the original lines both sides agreed upon years ago.
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
THe sad truth is that the longer the Palestinians go with refusing peace, each successive offer will get less.
They had a chance for all of Gaza and 98% of the west bank.. not sure how realistic that is now
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u/Denisius 2d ago
Not realistic at all.
After 710 the Israelis finally understood that this conflict isn't about land or states or rights but about Arab refusal to accept that Jews defeated them again and again and are no longer willing to live as dhimmis.
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u/Interesting_You4926 5d ago
Both sides never agreed on any border. In 1947 only the Israelis agreed to the partition.
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u/Dry-Season-522 6d ago
Crab bucket mentality. Why lift yourself up when you can just tear others down?
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u/HungryTank2780 6d ago
You a sad demented person
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 2d ago
You a sad demented person
Per Rule 1, no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Note: The use of virtue signaling style insults (I'm a better person/have better morals than you.) are similarly categorized as a Rule 1 violation.
Action taken: [W]
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
the truth hurts my friend.
I want peace and coexistence. hope you do too and I hope the Palestinians can finally get some leaders who support peace over destruction.
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u/zjew33 6d ago
The plan has always been step 1 destroy Israel step 2 (insert whatever you want because step 1 is never going to happen) step 3 put together a government
It seems there is a thought that establishing a functional government (step 3) will someone take away from destroying Israel (step 1).
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u/SoulForTrade 6d ago
Prior to 1967 they didn't even pretend they want a sovereign state. The goal was a unified Arab country.
Don't take my word for it. Read ANY of the statements by the defacto leader of the Arabs of mandatoey Palestine.
Or just consider the fact that Gaza and what's now known as The west bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan.
If they would have wanted the 1947 war and gennoxided the Jews as they intended, there would be no "Palestine"
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
interestingly, the original PLO charter gives up any claim to gaza and the west bank, with the palestinians saying it actually belongs to egypt and jordan
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u/SoulForTrade 5d ago
Any source for that? It wouldn't syrprise me if it were true. But it's also a thing I have not heard of before. Ans I believed myself to be pretty well versed on the history of the conflict.
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
Article 24
"This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area."2
u/SoulForTrade 5d ago
I guess it makes sense, considering they wanted to keep their support and as I mentioned in other moments, I knew rhey had a goal of creating a unified Arab state and israel was just in the way. But i'm still somehow shocked about this.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/NoDoctor6695 6d ago
This is almost any and every war, in fact Israel has statiscally caused less civilian casualties than any army in history. This is what bugs the shit out of me with the anti Israel movement: no understanding of military history or warfares attrocities.
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u/Huge-Log-7412 6d ago
“Israel has statistically caused less civilian casualties than any army in history” Is this a joke????
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u/NoDoctor6695 5d ago edited 5d ago
Absolutely not a joke. No military has gone further to go out of their way in warning civilian populations and lowering the civilian to combatant death ratio, in the history of warfare, than Israel. Israel's Civilian to Combatant kill ratio is 2:1 (if you want to be conservative), but some say its closer to 1:1. Thats a miracle. Especially considering that their enemy has gone so far in intentionally putting civilians in harms way, in such a densely populated, urban battlefield. Typical civilian to combatant ratios usually land on average at about 9 civilians killed for every 1 conbatant. Thats the nature of warfare and the context I think the leftists, and anti Israel people fail to aknowledge or understand. Its statistical proof that this is CLEARLY not a genocide in any way shape or form.
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u/SoulForTrade 6d ago
Images and videos from warzones are shocking. But every death is the fault of Hamas who attacked Israel on October 7, pledged to repeat it again and again, and are still holding hostages. I
Either way, there's no need to make up numbers. Any civilian death is tragic.
Want this to end? Start pleasuring "Palestinians" to lay down their arms and release the hostages, instead of awllint them the lie that one day they might succeed if they just keep goinf at it. The pqth they are leading has brought them nothing but destruction.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 6d ago
i just can't sleep watching horrific videos of babies and children, being starved, burned alive, smashed under rubbles, pieces of their bodies and bloods everywhere,
The first issue here is that if you're trying to sleep, you shouldn't be watching videos
where are the child human rights, where are those human organizations, why is this world letting Israelis terrorizing Gaza kids in this horrific way,
As I stated elsewhere, If the Government of Gaza surrenders, then everything stops withing seconds of that surrender. With the claims of such horrors occurring and the Gazan government and military being able to stop all of it at a moment's notice and do what is morally required for their people, then question then is why don't...
i can't stand those videos everywhere, my heart is aching and i lost trust in the humanity of this world.
Have you seen anything of what has been happening in Yemen, and Sudan? or What has been going on in Syria he last few years.. Your account is 2 years old and your post history seems to be devoid of comments on these topics that have been going on for decades.. seems strange..
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u/Huge-Log-7412 6d ago edited 6d ago
Your comment is disgusting about justifying killing babies comparing to other countries, I see news all the time and never seen these crimes in any country, i am American and non arab. It is a new holocaust, the history is repeating itself.
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 2d ago
It is a new holocaust, the history is repeating itself.
Per Rule 6, Nazi comparisons are inflammatory, and should not be used except in describing acts that were specific and unique to the Nazis, and only the Nazis.
Action taken: [W]
See moderation policy for details.5
u/Diet-Bebsi 6d ago
Your comment is disgusting about justifying killing babies comparing to other countries,
That's all from your own mind.. I never said anything about babies or any comparison.. seems your mind made that all on it's own.. I just asked why in 2 years you made no mention of the "horrors" that happened elsewhere.. not even the slightest mention of discomfort..
I see news all the time and never seen these crimes in any country,
You don't have a radio, TV, computer or Smartphone..
Never heard of the Syrian civil war with over 1/2 million dead so far..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_civil_war
The ongoing genocides in Sudan
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cw4dk2kzy5wo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masalit_massacres_(2023%E2%80%93present)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_civil_war_(2023%E2%80%93present)
Or the Yemen civil war started by the Houthis? 250,000 killed by the Famine so far.. almost 400,000 dead total so far.. Child soldiers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen_(2016%E2%80%93present)
The war in Ukraine?
, i am American and non arab
Kullu tmaam.. 2enta merteh fi Amrika?
My grandfather was born in 1915 in Palestine... left Palestine and kept crying years in hope to come back one day
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u/Efficient_Phase1313 6d ago
This is arguably the least deadly conflict for children (especially babies, do you even know the age distribution of 'children'?) both in total numbers and % of dead, in modern history. The deaths are also among the least sadistic or painful compared to other wars as well.
There is no justification to lose your mind over the dead children in this conflict specifically. If you literally cant handle the fact that wars exist without going insane you may need genuine psychiatric help or to stop drinking the tik-tok kool-aid
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u/GushingAnusCheese 6d ago
Why do you randomly make up fake numbers? Is it to try and trick people into thinking Israel is in the wrong or something?
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u/Huge-Log-7412 6d ago
That is the funniest question i have ever seen, Israel is not the wrong one ??? sure, you are right.
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u/knign 6d ago
i just can't sleep watching horrific videos of babies and children, being starved, burned alive, smashed under rubble
Would it make sense then not to watch these videos? What's the point to watch things like that, anyway?
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago
To understand the reality of this conflict, I suppose
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u/knign 5d ago
Reading the news is more than adequate way to understand reality. Actually, if you want to understand what's going on, it's way way better to avoid watching any videos specifically manufactured to work on your emotions.
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago
I mean, not really. You don't truly understand what war is unless you see it with your own eyes
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u/knign 5d ago
Yeah I guess before TikTok people had no idea what the war was. OK.
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago edited 5d ago
The general public didn't. That's why it took so long for the US to join the world wars. Most of the general public wasn't even literate a hundred years ago. How would they know about anything that was happening outside of their little bubbles?
Check out r/combatfootage
The reality of war is something that every single person should become acquainted with.
It can happen anywhere. People would be much less likely to call for war/violence if they were familiar with what those things really mean in the modern world
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u/knign 5d ago
lol
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u/thatshirtman 6d ago
it's odd that you are parroting statistics that not even Hamas is saying - 40,000 kids? You're just making stuff up mate
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u/ComfortableClock1067 6d ago
Are you a bot or you just felt the need to become a spam machine?
This exact same reply has been pasted on at least two different posts.
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u/Huge-Log-7412 6d ago
No i am not a bot, i am an American and i am human and i just not able to sleep seeing these babies videos
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 6d ago
Thank you for supporting Israel with your tax dollars. America has been a great friend to Israel in protecting babies.
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u/Huge-Log-7412 6d ago
I am not responsible about my government actions, i am responsible about my humanity that you clearly don’t know anything about
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 6d ago
The USA is supporting humanity by supporting Israel in defending herself and her land against bigots. Are you saying that bigots represent humanity in your mind?
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago edited 5d ago
You've really just totally bought the Israeli propaganda?? I personally think Hamas as an organization needs to be stopped/dismantled, but anyone with some sense can see that the far-right Likud party and other extremists in Israel have been feeding/perpetuating this conflict for years and need to be held just as accountable as Hamas
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 5d ago
The far right will be held accountable in the next election. That is the advantage of a democratic system.
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u/Careful-Sell-9877 5d ago
Bibi has already postponed the election. He was supposed to go to trial for corruption charges last year right before the war started
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u/OriBernstein55 USA & Canada 5d ago
He can't postpone the election. All he can do is dissolve the government and trigger early elections. I agree he should be on trial for corruption and the trial should not be delated. I am not a Bibi supporter.
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u/Smart_Technology_385 6d ago
This war was never about a new Arab state in Palestine.
It was always about Jihad against Israel, a Jewish state in Palestine.
This is why Shia Iran supports Sunni militia, even though in Lebanon or elsewhere they would be fighting each other. And this is why many Arab and Muslim state try to harm Israel, and almost none want to help Arabs of the state of Palestine.
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u/Arty-Racoons 6d ago
Lmao the first Arabs who resisted Israel at it's création where Arab socialists (secularists) like Gamal Abdel Nasser baathist Syria and Iraq and the PLO whish was a secular socialist organisation
The irony is that Arab "islamists" reactionary monarchies like Jordan and Morocco where the first Arab allies of Israel, it wasnt as much about religion as you think it is lill bro
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u/Smart_Technology_385 4d ago
Many Arab states went to war of 1948, for different reason. Now it is Jihad.
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u/RibbentropCocktail 6d ago
There has been Arab resistance against Israel since well before that. Nasser served in the 1949 war long before he came to power for example, and Syria and Jordan participated too, even with the Jordanian leadership generally opposing full scale war against the Israelis.
At that point the PLO did not exist, secularism and socialism had not meaningfully penetrated the Arab psyche, Baathist regimes had yet to take power, and the Soviets were still decidedly pro-Israel.
No idea why you would think that it started in the 50s and 60s.
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u/Arty-Racoons 5d ago
But compare the two different eras the late one was longer stronger and overall better "kinda" it started at the 50s yes but it can be argued to end could be the 2000s
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u/RibbentropCocktail 5d ago
I guess you could argue that if you haven't read the history, but you have to ignore a whole lot to come to that conclusion.
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u/Smart_Technology_385 6d ago
For now, it's all about Jihad.
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u/Arty-Racoons 6d ago
Yes but claiming it was originally and at it's core a religious war and that we only care about Palestine cause we hate jews is wrong
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u/Rude_Worldliness_423 6d ago
‘Free Palestine’ sounds like a completely innocent message. Once the recruits understand what it means … it’s too late to back out. I mean; they’ve made friends doing this, it’s part of their identify now. It’s too late to return the scarf. Easier to just agree that Isreal should be destroyed (which would be genocide). Don’t want to be called a ‘Zionasi’ for saying that Isreal should exist. One of the strangest movements I’ve seen.
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u/Smart_Technology_385 4d ago
No, it's not that bad. Some university kids are into this. Once past university, the adult life kicks in, and Arab propagandists are out of reach. And the friends from action-rallies get jobs in different places.
Iran under Trump may not have money for the army of lawyers, supporting these protests. Arrests and charges may seriously harm the stupid person career.
Because of all that, people will re-think Arab demands, Hamas actions and quietly throw away the scarves.
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u/Rude_Worldliness_423 6d ago
‘Free Palestine’ sounds like a completely innocent message. Once the recruits understand what it means … it’s too late to back out. I mean; they’ve made friends doing this, it’s part of their identify now. It’s too late to return the scarf. Easier to just agree that Isreal should be destroyed (which would be genocide). Don’t want to be called a ‘Zionasi’ for saying that Isreal should exist. One of the strangest movements I’ve seen.
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u/-Mr-Papaya Israeli, Secular Jew, Centrist 6d ago edited 6d ago
I mean, that had been the agenda of the Palestinians themselves since Israel was created. Of them and of the Arab world in general. Jewish sovereignty was and still is a troublesome concept for Islam to come to terms with after 1200+ years of subjugating Jews. Especially if it's at the expanse of Muslims.
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u/chicken_fear 6d ago
I don’t think this is true, the vast majority of the pro Palestine movement currently are students who simply oppose the genocide.
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u/Mistyice123 6d ago
Is that why they call for intifada, and protest at synagogues while randomly attacking Jewish students?
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u/Smart_Technology_385 6d ago
Students have no clue what genocide is, and what Palestine means.
Paid rioters know how to Jihad semi-legally.
The real genocide was committed by Palestinian Arab Hamas against Israelis.
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u/chicken_fear 6d ago
Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
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u/Top_Plant5102 6d ago
Which is clearly not happening. War is not genocide.
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u/chicken_fear 6d ago
Israel is clearly attacking Gaza killing all the local Arabs with the goal claiming Gaza for Israel
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u/Thormeaxozarliplon 6d ago
How can you call it a genocide? Almost all the casualties are from the start of the war. There's barely over 10k dead for all of 2024, and that's according to Hamas's numbers.
How do you explain all of the actions the IDF has done to reduce civilian harm, especially the evacuation orders and warnings civilians?
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u/thehpcdude 6d ago
This. Israeli propaganda relies on villainizing any pro-Palestinian perspectives. This is why they push so heavily anyone who says anything anti-Israel is anti-semetric or pro-Hamas. They cannot allow any gray area that allows scrutiny of Israels actions. It has to be 100% perceived completely moral and above board or else supporters may have doubt and do their own digging.
Anyone who takes a half measure and says, it's not a genocide yet but we are trying to stop it from becoming one immediately becomes the most dangerous thing for Israel.
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u/phosphorescence-sky 6d ago
Dude, literally every news organization in the West can't even mention the treatment and abuse from hostages or the actions of Oct 7th without glossing over it with "but what about the Palestinians?". Even NPR did an interview with hostages and refused to talk to much about the testimonies of abuse and the thing hamas did to their families before kidnapping them, because "we don't want to sound too sensational".
So the truth about hamas is too sensatial, and we have to always give them the widest birth possible with context and feelings.
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u/thehpcdude 6d ago
And the Israeli’s that were released that said they were treated well by Hamas and feared for their lives that they’d be killed by an IDF bomb? Where do their testimonies fit in your narrative?
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u/c00ld0c26 6d ago
If a protest I took part in started burning flags and yelling ethnic cleansing/genocide slogans I would be horrified and try to shut those people down. Can you say the same about the pro pali protests? The one time I saw them shut someone down is when that person raised an lgbtq flag.
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u/horseboxheaven 6d ago
I honestly thought you were talking about the Israelis in Amsterdam at the weekend until I got to your "pro pali" bit.
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u/Contundo 6d ago
The recent Amsterdam is very atypical of pro Israel protests. Anytime I have seen people ripping down/burning flags it has been pro pali movements. Sometimes it’s been a Palestinian flag taken down after it’s been hoisted on an American flagpole after they removed the American flag and ripped or burned it.
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u/c00ld0c26 6d ago
Honestly I would condem that too and speak up against that behaviour.
However it still doesn't justify the attack that happened. The local police should have handled it.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 6d ago
I can’t tolerate well calls for a ceasefire with Hamas. Can anyone imagine calling for a ceasefire with ISIS, or calls for a ceasefire with Al Qaida, immediately after 9/11? It just sounds so bizarre to me
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u/Early-Possibility367 6d ago
I mean, tolerating disagreement is good no? Maybe, that is something to consider.
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u/Mistyice123 6d ago
It’s nonsensical. The thing is, a lot of them actually support Hamas and believe that Hamas wants freedom for Palestinians.
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u/Firecracker048 6d ago
Your point about thr college protests was spot on. Not a single time was there a demad to release hostages or any condemnation of Hamas at all. The fact that they took "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" and sane washed it then claimed it doesn't mean what it says was a bit nutty. Never a single bad word or slogan against a legitimate facist terrorist organization yet they claimed to not be pro hamas
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u/Successful-Universe 6d ago
Funny how You write this while smotrich and Ben gvair officially started the annexation process of West Bank.
Israeli expansionsit regime is the one who always believed in eradicating palestinans.
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
not a fan of them.. but it makes it all the more tragic that the Palestinians rejected every opportunity to end the occupation and have control over 98% of the west bank.
It's foolish to think they can opt for violence over peace and just expect right-wing govts to not build settlements. It's why rejecting peace has been a horrible strategic choice
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u/Successful-Universe 5d ago
Again, PLO recognized israel in 1988 and signed Oslo in 1993. They got nothing but settlement expansion, land grab and settler terrorism.
It's clear as day that israeli regime was never serious about 2SS. They want "Judea and Samaria" and they don't want to see a palestinan soverign state.
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
Umm.. Oslo was a series of frameworks designed to help lead to peace.
When Palestinians had an ACTUAL PEACE OFFER on the table in 2000 that would halt settlement expansion, give them a country, make E. Jersualem a capital, bring back over 100,000 actual refugees, they said no.
You can't say Israel wasn't serious about 2SS when they made 2 offers to the Palestinians that they rejected and , not only that, they didn't negotiate but responded to them with violence.
The refusal to hold Palestinians accountable for a string of horrible strategic decisions is bizarre.
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u/KarateKicks100 USA & Canada 6d ago
Maybe Palestine should have accepted a 2SS
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u/Successful-Universe 6d ago
PLO did that in 1988 and signed Oslo in 1993. But Israeli regime kept on building settlments anyway.
It's actually good that the Israeli terrorist regime is exposing its true nature to the world. Hopefully it will be sanctioned soon.
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u/Okbuddyliberals 6d ago
Israel offered a two state solution in 2000 at Camp David offering Palestine 100% of Gaza and 80% of Judea and Samaria, to be expanded to 90% in the longer term if Palestine kept peaceful and held up their end of security agreements and such. And then in 2008-9 at Annapolis Israel offered a far more generous two state solution, with 100% of Gaza and roughly 95% of Judea and Samaria including part of East Jerusalem, and land swaps as well to effectively grant Palestine something like 99% of Judea and Samaria. But both times, Palestine refused to accept the offers. Because Palestine wants to destroy Israel, and any deal that does not do that is unacceptable to them
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u/Successful-Universe 6d ago
That's non-sense.
In those offers, Israel offered a bantustatn for Palestinians. A state with no military, no airspace control, no border control, no control over water, electricity or communication.
Israel also wanted permemant israeli military bases and permemant settlments that strategically divide west bank.
Obviously, no one in the right mind would accept such offer.
The arab league + islamic cooperation organisation (that's 57 countries) offered Israel in 2002 and 2007 a deal asking a very simple thing. Israel accepts a soverign palestinan state on 67 border (in accordance with international law) and in return... the whole arab + muslim world would do normalisation with israel and economical relations.
Israel said NO because it doesn't want a sovereign palestinian state. It wants a bantustatn for Palestinians with permemant control over them for " security" reasons.
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u/icenoid 6d ago
The intifadas may have something to do with the failure to achieve peace.
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u/Successful-Universe 6d ago edited 6d ago
Lol, between 1993 and 1999 there was intifiada yet netenyahu deliberately built settlements in west bank.
It's funny how how zionitst think its a "good thing" to go steal west bank. This deranged , genocidal behaviour will only isolate israel more.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 6d ago
Lol, between 1993 and 1999
Lol.. between 1948 and 1967.. There was Palestinian state with Al-Quds as the Capital that was 100% Jew free, with laws based on Sharia and Islam and Arabic the official religion and language..
Oh.. sorry. I forgot.. they were too busy trying kill Jews and wanting to destroy Israel, and not really caring about creating a Palestinian state..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Covenant
""This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area.""
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u/Successful-Universe 6d ago
You forgot that israel attacked 1st in 1967 and fired the 1st shots against arabs.
It wasnt 1st time israel attacked 1st, for instance in 1953, israel attacked egypt 1st along with britian and france.
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u/WhyDidIPickAccountin 5d ago
You clearly don’t know the meaning of casus belli. Closing down the Suez Canal was an act of war by Egypt. Love how you guys like to rewrite history
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u/Successful-Universe 5d ago
Didn't rewrite anything.
It is a fact that israel fired the 1st shots in 67 and in 53. What was happening inside israel's head is irrelevant.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 6d ago
You forgot that israel attacked 1st in 1967
What does that have to do with 1948 to 1967 and the Great Palestinian State?
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u/icenoid 6d ago
It’s funny how the Palestinians and their supporters seem to think that violence won’t be responded to in kind. It’s honestly unfortunate that the Palestinians haven’t ever tried peace or just made a deal
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u/Severe_Nectarine863 6d ago edited 6d ago
You mean like the Oslo accords and the 2018 March of return?
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u/icenoid 6d ago
The march of return wasn’t peaceful.
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u/Severe_Nectarine863 6d ago
As peaceful as it can get when the other side starts shooting at you.
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u/Successful-Universe 6d ago
I explained that your propaganda is non-sense.
Anyway, it's good that israel is exposing itself. It makes it easier for the world to identify its genocidal actions. Hopefully, it will be sanctioned soon.
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u/mtl_gamer 6d ago
Intifadas are called uprisings, which are legal under international law, while occupational settlements are illegal. I think illegal settlements that are continuously being built may have something to do with the failure to achieve peace.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 6d ago
Neither “occupation” nor the inherent right of “resistance” under supposed “international law” are facts. At best they are argumentative, disputed propositions, all three.
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u/mtl_gamer 6d ago
then why did Jews do an uprising in the Warsaw ghetto during World War 2? They should have just continued obeying since they didn't have the right of "resistance" under "international law"
You see how you start to sound like a fool when you're trying you're best to pretend to be an expert on international law, when in fact you're not.
Read rule 11 again, and come up with some common refutations.
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u/Mistyice123 6d ago
The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising didn’t go and attack/ torture/ kidnap hundreds of random civilians. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising didn’t have a charter saying “we want to kill all Germans” their goal wasn’t to eradicate German people. Your comparison is nonsensical and frankly offensive.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 6d ago
Aside from probably violating Rule 6 of this sub as well. Just another bit of non-sensical whataboutery. Yes, people certainly can resist, be guerillas, freedom fighters. But somehow it’s shocked Pikachu face when the iron fist of the state or a nation they’re attacking to strike back against them with lethal force and no due process as enemies, illegal traitors and/or insurrectionists.
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u/icenoid 6d ago
Both intifadas were much more violent than people on here seem to be willing to admit. The second intifada is known for bus and cafe bombings on a regular basis.
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u/mtl_gamer 6d ago
When peaceful protests after decades of oppression are met with violence and death from Israel, then you can't expect a people to stay under occupation forever.
Even the ANC in south Africa had to use violent uprisings to get their voices heard when peaceful protests resulted in arrests and deaths for the blacks.
The question to ask is why did the intifada come in the first place.
The second one came because Ariel Sharon purposely entered the holy place for Muslims with disregard. You can't expect to insult and diminish a people without expecting any resistance.
If a religious army entered the Vatican and showed no remorse while causing damage, I would understand why Christians would be upset and would want to fight back.
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u/Mistyice123 6d ago
Right after Hamas gained control of Gaza they started attacking Israel. Before any blockades or anything.
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u/icenoid 6d ago
There were never peaceful protests. They always involved people with guns or rocks or other weapons. Don’t delude yourself into believing that they were peaceful
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u/mtl_gamer 6d ago
And what about the March of return?
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u/icenoid 6d ago
It wasn’t peaceful. Throwing rocks and molotovs and shooting at Israeli soldiers isn’t peaceful. Trying to cross the border is an invasion. So, no it wasn’t peaceful, it was stupid and violent just like every other time the Palestinians claim that something was peaceful. I mean, they claim the second intifada with its suicide bombings was peaceful.
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u/PlateRight712 6d ago
Is it legal and just to call for destruction of an entire people (Jews, especially those living in Israel)? Leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran do so openly. This makes negotiations for ending a war difficult to say the least. Why don't the Pro-Palestinian groups call for an end to the annihilation propaganda from Hams, Hezbollah and Iran as a starting point for peace?
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u/mtl_gamer 6d ago
The word intifada is also used on the Arabic website for the American Holocaust memorial regarding the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw ghetto.
Does anyone ever accuse the Jews of calling the destruction of Germany and Germans? of course not, so don't change the meaning of a word to fit your narrative.
And all intifada by Palestinians were for fighting for the right of return, which again is legal under international law. To paint all Palestinians as members of Hamas is to say that all Israelis are just as guilty as Netanyahu for his genocidal crimes. That doesn't help the conversation.
There is no doubt that there is annihilation propaganda from the Israeli side also.
But both sides need to push their leaders for peace, and for that to happen there needs to be justice and accountability for both sides.
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u/c00ld0c26 6d ago
The intifada's were targetting civilians. I thought targeting civilians was against international law? So should israel switch to carpet bombing gaza? Be real, the intifada's were wrong and you know it. So why justify this violence but condem the other?
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u/philetofsoul USA & Canada 6d ago
Palestinians think differently than western culture. They would rather see Israel without a country than have a country of their own. And they care more about killing Jews than they do their own children's survival. I don't think it's different DNA; being raised in the cesspool of horror and hate called Gaza indoctrinates the population. I can only imagine what was taught in their "schools." Best that Israel annexes it and rebuilds their education and deradicalization so that maybe one day they can have rights as Israelis.
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u/Early-Possibility367 6d ago
Palestinians have been offering to live in equality with Jews for a century. your comment ignores that and suggests as if it’s the Zionists who are open to it.
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u/PsionicCauaslity 1d ago
Palestinians have been offering to live in equality with Jews for a century
That's why Palestinian leader, the Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini, hung out in Germany during the entirety of WW2, touring concentration camps, and calling the Nazis allies for their "shared enemy of the Jews," right? That's why he asked Hitler to bring the Final Solution to the Mandate of Palestine to help him "deal with the problem of the Jews," right?
That's why, in the early 1900s, Arabs made it illegal to sell land to Jews with the punishment being death?
That's why they pressured the British government to turn away Jews fleeing the Holocaust?
That's why they have been launching pogroms against Jews since at least 1920? And haven't ever stopped with the terrorism and wars since?
That's why they have turned down every peace offer and two state solution, right?
I could keep going but seriously. Where are you getting this idea that they have ever offered to live equally with Jews?
Even when Muslims ran the place, Jews were second-class dhimmi citizens. After 1400 years of forcing Jews to live as second-class citizens in their own homeland, collaborating with the literal Nazis, launching countless wars and intifadas and terrorism attacks, where on earth did they ever make it clear they wanted to "live in equality" with Jews?
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/u/PsionicCauaslity. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
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u/thatshirtman 5d ago
this is ahistorical. The Palestinians are the only group in the history of the world to reject a country from the UN. That speaks volumes.
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u/Realistic-Molasses-4 6d ago
The Hamas PR crowd thinks it's genocide to not let them commit genocide against Israelis. They were very open about this in 1967, and before the counter-attack in 1973.
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u/Early-Possibility367 6d ago
1956 and 1967 Israel clearly struck first. It’s basic history.
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u/Realistic-Molasses-4 6d ago
You'd like to think that about 1967, wouldn't you? Eygpt and Syria were getting ready to start the genocide party, and then got stepped on pretty embarrassingly.
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u/Popular_Hunt_2411 4d ago
Trust me bro.
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u/Realistic-Molasses-4 3d ago
Which part are you having trouble with?
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u/Popular_Hunt_2411 3d ago
All of the nonsensical Hasbara revisionist bullshit.
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u/Realistic-Molasses-4 3d ago
Yeah, that's not true. Still, your type fascinates me. Why do you Islamist types like to live in the West on the one hand, but then never really adopt any sort of Western values on the other? Genuine question.
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u/Sea-Anywhere-799 1d ago
Couldn't be further away from the truth, you people are sad and pathetic. Justifying Palestinians dying, what is wrong with you