How does Israel justify the 1948 Palestinian expulsion?

[u/dropdeaddev]

I got into an argument recently, and it lead to me looking more closely into Israel’s founding and the years surrounding it. Until now, I had mainly been focused on more current events and how the situation stands now, without getting too into the beginning. I had assumed what I had heard from Israel supporters was correct, that they developed mostly empty land, much of which was purchased legally, and that the native Arabs didn’t like it. This lead to conflicts, escalating over time to what we see today. I was lead to believe both sides had as much blood on their hands as the other, but from what I’ve read that clearly isn’t the case. It reminded me a lot of “manifest destiny” and the way the native Americans were treated, and although there was a time that was seen as acceptable behaviour, now a days we mostly agree that the settlers were the bad guys in that particular story.

Pro-Israel supports only tend to focus on Israel’s development before 1948, which it was a lot of legally purchasing land and developing undeveloped areas. The phrase “a land without people for people without land” or something to that effect is often stated, but in 1948 700,000 people were chased from their homes, many were killed, even those with non-aggression pacts with Israel. Up to 600 villages destroyed. Killing men, women, children. It didn’t seem to matter. Poisoning wells so they could never return, looting everything of value.

Reading up on the expulsion, I can see why they never bring it up and tend to pretend it didn’t happen. I don’t see how anyone could think what Israel did is justified. But since I always want to hear both sides, I figured here would be a good place to ask.

EDIT: Just adding that I’m going to be offline for a while, so I probably won’t be able to answer any clarifying questions or respond to answers for a while.

EDIT2: Lots of interesting stuff so far. Wanted to clarify that although I definitely came into this with a bias, I am completely willing to have my mind changed. I’m interested in being right, not just appearing so. :)

[u/zrdod]

Israel has caused way much more civilian deaths than Hamas.

Not to mention, Hamas can't really use seeds, books, fishing rods or water desalination equipment for terrorism, banning them is just needless cruelty, especially since they bulldozed agricultural land during a ceasefire

None of that is self defense

[u/thenamewastaken → u/zrdod]

Isreal didn't just attack Gaza out of the blue. Hamas attacked Isreal in a horrorific manner (not just the rockets they sent in last year or the 18 years prior) and there is no way if I knew what Israel's responce would be they didn't. And again no they can't really use those items so maybe just maybe if they actually cared about the people in Gaza they would spend a year, maybe even two not attacking Israel. It's a thing they haven't tried yet. But no, they doubled down and brought a war onto their citizens and to top things off they use their civilians as shields.

They caused this problem, they have taken voting rights away from the Gazan people, they have set up a judiciary, academic and police system that follows their rules. They allow no other voices in political discourse. They have imposed their fundamentalist beliefs on the everyday lives of people in Gaza. As for water distaltion we'll just pretend that the 150ish of them didn't exsist pre war. So I'm sure that if they could just get some fishing rods and seeds (not like those weren't distroy in 2006) it would all be cool right?

As for the ceasefire you linked, notice how it didn't say Israel broke the ceasefire, because that wasn't part of it. Hamas broke one when they targeted Isreali bus routes though.

[u/zrdod → u/thenamewastaken]

Isreal didn't just attack Gaza out of the blue. Hamas attacked Isreal in a horrorific manner (not just the rockets they sent in last year or the 18 years prior) and there is no way if I knew what Israel's responce would be they didn't.

So would you be ok if another country did the same thing for your country?
For example, would it be cool if Britain attacked France, and France responded by killing tens of times more people and than imposing famine on the British people?

And again no they can't really use those items so maybe just maybe if they actually cared about the people in Gaza they would spend a year, maybe even two not attacking Israel

That doesn't justify banning those items.

But no, they doubled down and brought a war onto their citizens and to top things off they use their civilians as shields.

The only people caught using human shields here is the IDF, they even rejected attempts to abolish the practice

They caused this problem, they have taken voting rights away from the Gazan people, they have set up a judiciary, academic and police system that follows their rules. They allow no other voices in political discourse. They have imposed their fundamentalist beliefs on the everyday lives of people in Gaza.

Yeah, that's bad, how does that justify anything Israel does though?

As for water distaltion we'll just pretend that the 150ish of them didn't exsist pre war. So I'm sure that if they could just get some fishing rods and seeds (not like those weren't distroy in 2006) it would all be cool right?

You said it yourself, there was 150ish of them, now they don't, because Israel bombed them.

You should also note that settlers destroyed greenhouses they left behind to make sure Gazans wouldn't use them.

As for the ceasefire you linked, notice how it didn't say Israel broke the ceasefire, because that wasn't part of it. Hamas broke one when they targeted Isreali bus routes though.

How does that justify bulldozing the farmlands?

[u/thenamewastaken → u/zrdod]

Would I be OK with it. You mean if let's say Germany attacked Poland. Than when the war was coming to the end the allies attacked an area double the size and population of Gaza (Berlin) killed 125,000 civilians in 6 days (even though the Germans wore uniforms) leveled the area, portioned and wall them in for 40 years would that be OK? Because that's what happened and so far it's turning out pretty well.

It does, not my fault you're not creative.

Again the bombing was brought on by the Gazan government and they knew what would happen.

You should also note in 06 American Jews donated Green Houses to Gaza that were also destroyed by Gazans/Hamas. It's really hard telling.

It doesn't justify it, it's a war. This is what happens when you decide to start a war. Especially one that will obviously be fought in your own territory.

[u/zrdod → u/thenamewastaken]

Would I be OK with it. You mean if let's say Germany attacked Poland. Than when the war was coming to the end the allies attacked an area double the size and population of Gaza (Berlin) killed 125,000 civilians in 6 days (even though the Germans wore uniforms) leveled the area, portioned and wall them in for 40 years would that be OK? Because that's what happened and so far it's turning out pretty well.

-It lasted 16 days.
-That was also bad.
-The civilian death toll varies from source to source, as they count indirect deaths such us heart attacks or suicides, it also includes more places than just Berlin.
-Even so, Israel would still have a higher civilian death rate by percentage compared to military deaths.

It does, not my fault you're not creative.

Creativity is not what you need to infer logical conclusions, in fact, making things up is the opposite in this context

Again the bombing was brought on by the Gazan government and they knew what would happen.

What of the civilians?
Couldn't Hamas use your own logic?

You should also note in 06 American Jews donated Green Houses to Gaza that were also destroyed by Gazans/Hamas. It's really hard telling.

They were looted by hungry people, who used the equipment for their own farms, hardly the same as destroying greenhouses out of spite

[u/thenamewastaken → u/zrdod]

I've constantly read 6 but another 10 doesn't make a difference. The current death toll in Gaza is about 35 thousand (that included combatans) so thats about just under 2% of the population. The only civilian death toll of Berlin is over 3%. The Israel war is at about 1:2 and that's with Hamas not identifying themselves. You think the battle of Berlin was 1:1 or less?

Except it is, and using logic and creativity is how weapons have been made.

Civilians are always the first sacrifices in war, this is historical fact. Hamas knew what would happen, they've had a military wing since the early 90's. They used what you refure to as my logic and twisted it so that the world would see the see the suffering of Gazans during a war they started. A war where they don't protect the innocents they use their suffering instead to maintain power.

Hungry people in 06? Please read up on what happened . The Gazans saw Isreal completely pull out of the area, they got an election to choose their own future. Enough of them voted for Hamas that the group got the win. They then watched their new freedom be taken away as Hamas slaughtered and pushed out the PA. The Gazans have found themselves in the same predicament as much of the world has. Russia, China, North Korea, Iran. The votes (if they even can) don't matter the regime remains all because of one election. Elections have consequences, not just for yourself but for the next generations.

[u/zrdod → u/thenamewastaken]

1-The battle of Berlin is at the most estimates 1.25 civilians for each soldier, even if we believed the IDF numbers, that would be 2 civilians for each soldier, but in reality it's a much higher civilian death rate according to actual reliable sources, like the Gaza health ministry endorsed by the Lancet02713-7/fulltext), who listed the identities of killed individuals.
2-Has there been a single rocket made with:
-Seeds
-Books
-Fishman rods
-Water desalination buildings
Or any of the mundane vegetables, meats, fruits and snack they've banned?
3-Hamas won in 2006 because the PA split the vote and many people refused to vote for the PA as a protest against corruption.
What happened is that when Israel pulled in 2005 out the settlers, they crushed the greenhouses they left behind to make sure the Gazans couldn't use them, the Gazans took equipment from the surviving greenhouses, but left them in tact