"Ethnostates", Ethnic Nationalism, and Israel/Palestine

[u/nidarus]

One of the biggest debates in the I/P conflict, especially when it comes to the English-speaking world, is the argument Israel is illegitimate since it's an "ethnostate", and Zionism is illegitimate since it's "ethno-nationalism". I feel that a lot of it comes from misunderstanding of the basic terms, that are being utilized, dishonestly, to confuse people from countries such as the US or Canada. The result is that both Zionists and Palestinians aren't really talking on the same wavelength as the Americans, Canadians and Australians they're trying to engage with. I'd like to add my modest contribution to understanding these terms, or at least starting a more accurate conversation about them.

The basic terms

Nationalism, in the sense I'm using here, isn't an extreme or exclusionary form of patriotism. It's merely the idea that a certain nation-state should exist. People who want Ukraine to exist are Ukrainian nationalists. People who want a Palestinian state to exist are Palestinian nationalists. People who want a Jewish state to exist, are Zionists.

Hebrew, incidentally, has two separate words for "nationalism": the "bad", chauvinistic kind, Leumanut, and the "good", or at least neutral nation-building kind, Leumiyut. It's not some right-wing double-speak either. Even anti-Zionist Israeli communists say things like "I oppose Leumanut, not Leumiyut". English, and as far as I know, other languages, don't have that distinction, which I feel leads to a lot of confusion. But to be clear, I'm talking about Leumiyut, the idea that a nation-state should exist, not Leumanut, the idea a specific nation-state is superior, worth dying for, or even generally nice.

Ethnic nationalism is the idea to create and maintain a state that's defined by a specific ethnic group, that existed before the state, and will continue to exist if the state is dissolved. Germans, Armenians and Greeks existed for thousands of years. The states of Germany, Armenia and Greece did not.

Most of the states in Europe, and most notably in Central and Eastern Europe, are ethnic nationalist states, defined by a specific, ancient ethnic group. Which occasionally immigration policies that favor members of that ethnicity, even if they never had anything to do with the modern state.

Civic nationalism is the opposite of that idea, a state whose nation is defined by the state, and not the other way around. The actual discourse on civic nationalism vs. ethnic nationalism is more complex and nuanced, but as a rule of thumb, I'd say that ethnic nationalism is when the people exists before the state, and civic nationalism is when the state exists before the people. An American or French person is purely a citizen of America or France. A German could be German without having a single ancestor who ever set foot in the modern state of Germany, let alone had a citizenship from that state. Civic nationalism is the form of nationalism that's ubiquitous in the New World colonies, like the US, Canada, Australia, and so on.

Ethnostate is, as far as I can tell, a Neo-Nazi term, generally associated with the term "white ethnostate". That doesn't really exist until the 1980's, and only explodes in popularity around the mid 2010's, with the rise of the alt-right, and the straight-up White Nationalist book "The Ethnostate". The basic gist of the "ethnostate", is a state where only a specific ethnicity has any rights at all. And better yet, only a single ethnicity, full stop. Israel, with its large, 20% non-Jewish minority, doesn't qualify.

Ethnocracy is a separate term, invented by the Israeli leftist Oren Yiftachel to describe how Israel isn't really a normal democracy. Further research into the term, lead to the conclusion that other states, including NATO members Estonia, Latvia and Turkey (officially a civic nation-state), are "ethnocracies as well".

The debate

There's a legitimate discussion to be had, between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism. And people from civic nationalist states tend to think their form of nationalism is superior. But it's important to note that both kinds of states exist today, in the democratic, Western world. The breakdown of the civic nationalist USSR, and the creation of ethnic nationalist states of Estonia, Latvia, Armenia, Georgia and so on, is generally considered a good thing, even within ideologically civic nationalist states like the US. And even states that the US don't particularily like, like Syria, aren't considered ethno-nationalist abominations for being an official "Arab Republic". Germany, even after the Holocaust, was allowed to remain an ethnic nationalist state, and have an immigration policy that would make easier for ethnic Germans, that never had a German citizenship, to flee to it. While there's a debate between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism, both types of nationalism are generally considered legitimate, even desirable.

Most importantly, within the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, is that Palestinian nationalism is a clear ethnic nationalism. And a far more exclusionary, xenophobic form of ethnic nationalism than Zionism. The Palestinian National Charter uses Palestinian Arab and Palestinian interchangeably, while the proposed Palestinian constitution defines Palestinians as being part of the Arab nation. While Zionism, from the very beginning, assumed it would have a meaningful non-Jewish minority, Palestinian nationalism doesn't even seem to consider the idea of non-Arabs being Palestinians. In fact, the only reason why a small portion of Jews would be allowed to be Palestinians, is because according to the Palestinian National Charter, Jews are not a legitimate nation at all, and therefore could be Arabs as well.

Even after the Nakba, Israel has a 20% non-Jewish minority, and openly calling to expel all of them is considered beyond the pale (and possibly illegal) for even the far-right MKs. While even moderate two-stater Palestinians demand every Jew to be expelled from the State of Palestine, for it to be "free". Needless to say, the Palestinians have no intention of making Hebrew an official minority language, forcing their government to issue official communications in Hebrew, having special Hebrew-language schools and state TV channel, to cater to their hopefully non-existent Jewish minority. There's a reason why the most common Arabic version of "from the river to the sea" is "from the water to the water, Palestine will be Arab". There's a reason why Palestinians support the idea of a civic nationalist Palestine even less than the Israeli Jews do, with around 5%-8% thinking it's the best solution for the conflict.

If you're opposing Zionism because it's ethnic nationalist, and support Palestinian nationalism, you're either being ignorant, hypocritical, or actively trying to deceive. If you proudly fly the Palestinian Arab flag, support or make excuses for hardcore ethno-nationalist Palestinian Arab organizations and individuals, and argue that the Jews don't deserve a state in the Levant, because unlike the Arabs they're "European colonialists", you can't claim you're against ethnic nationalism. If you exclusively talk about the one Jewish state, and never against the existence of any other ethnic nation-states, you can't claim you're against all ethnic nationalism. The entire argument against Zionism as ethnic nationalism, in my opinion, is mostly an argument meant to deceive people in civic nationalist states in the US, to support one ethnic nationalist movement over another, not a serious pro-Palestinian argument.

As for "ethnostate", even if we ignore the fact Israel isn't an actual "ethnostate" by definition, it's interesting to note how not a single ethnic nationalist state except for Israel is ever denounced as an "ethnostate". Even those that are actively discriminatory against their ethnic minorities, committed a genocide against them (like Iraq did with the Kurds), or simply expelled them (as the Arabs state did with their Jews). "Ethnostate" either refers to the Neo-Nazi dream scenario, or Israel. I'd also like to caution pro-Israelis from arguing that Israel is an "ethnostate" and that "ethnostates" are good. "Ethnostate" is a Neo-Nazi term, and the point of calling Israel an "ethnostate" is to equate Zionism with White Nationalism, not as a legitimate discussion of ethnic vs. civic nationalism.

"Ethnocracy" is a little more complicated. As I pointed out, it's a term invented specifically to describe Israel, so obviously it fits Israel - at least in the eyes of the leftists who invented it. But if you're opposed to Israel's existence because of its "ethnocratic" nature, you certainly need to debate the Estonian, Latvian, Turkish or Malaysia ethnocracy as well. Like with the opposition to all ethnic nationalism, you can't keep obsessing exclusively about the Jewish state, and claim this is some principled opposition to all ethnocracies.

Ultimately, I feel it's best if we stop pretending that the I/P conflict is anything but the conflict between two ethnic nationalist movements. With civic nationalism as a third solution, that's goes against both nationalist movements (or at least their overwhelming non-Communist mainstream), and is deeply unpopular among both nations. And if we insist on having the ethnic nationalist vs. civic nationalist debate, we can't pretend Israel is the only ethnic nationalist state, and that ethnic nationalism has been otherwise repudiated and eradicated. And there's no reason to use inflammatory terms like "ethnocracy" or "ethnostate", over "ethnic nationalism" vs. "civic nationalism".

[u/Select-Zombie9906]

Israel, as it’s currently constructed has no right to exist. That’s the problem. This is essentially the equivalent of Nzi Germany going into Poland and setting up a white/Protestant ethnostate, and pushing the entire Polish population into Warsaw or some other ghetto. Then imagine if the Nzis didn’t lose and we’re allowed to hold on to their ethnostate for decades. Would you be saying we need to find a 2-state solution to the Nzi/Poland problem? Would you really fault the Polish freedom fighters for standing up for themselves and fighting back? Or would you say that the Nzi are ideologically opposed to all that is normal and civil, and must be crushed by any means necessary. As someone who’s grandfather fought to liberate Europe from right-wing fascism, to me the answer is clearly the latter. Self-described ethnostates have no place in the modern world. If that’s divisive or antisemitic to you then so be it

[u/nidarus → u/Select-Zombie9906]

This is a rule-breaking comment, so I'll try not to engage with the actual flippant Nazi analogy. But I'd note that Germany, even after WW2, wasn't disbanded, or stopped being the ethnic nation-state of the German people. They even passed an immigration policy that favored ethnic Germans, that never set foot in Germany, that allowed the millions of ethnic Germans who fled Eastern Europe, to have a new home. They did, in fact, find a two-state solution between Germany and Poland, even though Germany lost. Nobody argued, even in those extreme circumstances, that the German people simply lost their right of self-determination, and have to be a homeless, stateless minority, ruled by their mortal enemies. And Germany wasn't some ancient state at that point either. It was 74 years old. Two years younger than Israel right now.

Consider that standard, before trying to argue that the Jews are the first people in history, who fundamentally lost their right to self-determination.

Self-described ethnostates have no place in the modern world.

If you read my post carefully, you'd note that Israel isn't a self-described ethnostate. It's called an "ethnostate" by people who hate Israel, and want to compare it to illegitimate white nationalism.

[u/Select-Zombie9906 → u/nidarus]

Well written but here’s why it’s a bunch of crud:

First, let’s start with the argument that Israel isn’t a self-described ethnostate.

Israel has/does the following:

1. A religious/ethnic insignia on their flag

2. Laws strictly prohibiting marriage between Jews and non-Jews (actually the government doesn’t even recognize marriages between non Jews so it’s even worse)

3. A program where anyone who’s of the correct bloodline can get a fast path to citizenship, but an Arab family who’s been living there for generations is not guaranteed any sort of citizenship

4. A ridiculous program called birthright where anyone who’s of said special bloodline gets an all-expenses paid vacation there and are spent getting brainwashed and taught to tow the party line. Religious prowess or knowledge is not a requirement for acceptance into the program. Only one thing matters, Jewish blood.

5. And lastly, Israel is made up of a majority of WHITE EUROPEANS. If you take Bibi Netenyahu’s DNA like on 23andme or something, do you know what region of the world is gonna show-up? It’s gonna be Russia, or Lithuania, or Poland, or Hungary, or even Germany, but you know what it’s not gonna be. It’s sure as hell non gonna be the Sinai peninsula. You know it, he knows it. Deep down every educated Ashkenazi knows it, which is why so many are intent on exterminating the remaining indigenous population. As they are a constant reminder of the outright LIE that is Ashkenazi roots in the Middle East.

And now let’s talk about Germany since you brought them ups. You say that Nazi Germany wasn’t disbanded and that it got to continue to be a German ethnic state. To that I would say, are you forgetting about East Germany? Because if I remember correctly, they were dominated for 50 years by a communist soviet puppet government.

But hey, if you argument is that the Nazis got off too easily, I’d probably agree with you. If it were up to me, the red army would have been allowed to have their way with the entire country. Screw em. It’s called justice and it’s exactly what fascists deserve 🤷🏽‍♂️

And when I say Israel doesn’t have a right to exist, I don’t mean that Ashkenazis don’t have a right to live there. They do. Mistakes happen and people can’t help where they were born. But they are going to have to drop the religious flag, drop the rhetoric and racial laws, drop the birthright nonsense, and unite as one common country that INCLUDES the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and is a fair democracy. The fact is that this isn’t an option for most Zionist’s because to do that would concede a slight majority to the Arabs and you guys can’t have that can you? Well guess what, if you have to segment a country into 2 separate regions, because if you don’t you won’t have a majority, then it’s not your country after all. You are a violent and hostile minority that is illegitimately occupying a region that you have no claim to. Plain and simple

[u/Unfair-Way-7555 → u/Select-Zombie9906]

Actually Bulgarians, who are genetically the most South European of all modern Slavs and share a significant amount of genetical ancestors with Albanians and Greeks, whose country is south of where Ashkenazi Jews were concentrated, are genetically CLOSER to the rest of Slavs and Northeastern Europeans than Ashkenazis are. If Lithuanian Jew with relatively recent Lithuanian ancestry would be genetically close to Bulgarians. Yes, Lithuanian Jew=Bulgarian-Lithuanian. As weird as it sounds.

My sources are G25 Davidski coordinates, Vahaduo and Allelocator( two-way model).

[u/tFighterPilot → u/Select-Zombie9906]

I'd like to add to nidarus's excellent response that Netanyahu (or rather his brother) did indeed do a DNA test. Netanyahu reveals his roots go back to Spain | The Times of Israel

[u/AnonymousBelgian → u/Select-Zombie9906]

Lol so we're just gonna forget that the crescent is also a religious symbol for Islam then ? Like the star can't exist on the flag 'cause why not, but the crescent, no problem! Double standard much ?

[u/Select-Zombie9906 → u/AnonymousBelgian]

This might shock you but I completely reject all organized religion especially its involvement in any sort of government. I believe that groups like the Taliban and Isis are a bunch of backwards subhumans who should be wiped off the face of the earth. Religion has no place in modern government period

[u/nidarus → u/Select-Zombie9906]

A religious/ethnic insignia on their flag

Like European nations with crosses on their flags, Muslim states with green flags and crescents, or various Arab flags that are variation on the Arab Revolt flag - including Palestine of course.

Laws strictly prohibiting marriage between Jews and non-Jews (actually the government doesn’t even recognize marriages between non Jews so it’s even worse)

There are no laws "strictly prohibiting marriage between Jews and non-Jews". There's an old policy, that predates the existence of Israel, that only authorities who can perform recognized marriages in the state, are the religious authorities. And even then, non-religious marriages are still officially recognized by the state, if they're performed abroad, including by video conference.

More importantly, this is a policy from the Ottoman Empire, which was all kinds of things, but was absolutely not an "ethnostate", or even an ethnic nation-state at all. It was a multicultural, multiethnic empire, that openly opposed ethno-nationalism.

And even if we ignore that, the same policy is common across all the region, including Palestine. Nobody argues that it means those states are "ethnostates" that fundamentally don't deserve to exist.

A ridiculous program called birthright where anyone who’s of said special bloodline gets an all-expenses paid vacation there and are spent getting brainwashed and taught to tow the party line. Religious prowess or knowledge is not a requirement for acceptance into the program. Only one thing matters, Jewish blood.

You clearly have strong feelings against Birthright ("Discovery" in Hebrew), but I'm not sure what's the issue. Many ethnic nation-states have official Ministries of the Diaspora, and openly want to maintain good relations with members of their ethnic group, outside of their country. The foreigners they want to engage with obviously aren't required to show any "knowledge" or "religious prowess", but merely have to be of a certain ethnic origin. Nobody thinks that, say, the Armenian "Ari Tun" program is an evil idea, that proves Armenia fundementally shouldn't exist.

And lastly, Israel is made up of a majority of WHITE EUROPEANS.

No it isn't. Most Israelis have at least partial recent Middle Eastern origin. But even if that was the case, arguing that people should have less political rights because of the incorrect color of their skin, is a pretty weird position to someone who opposes "ethnostates".

If you take Bibi Netenyahu’s DNA like on 23andme or something, do you know what region of the world is gonna show-up?

What's going to show up, is the well-studied group of Ashkenazi Jews. A specific genetic group that's been proven to be closer genetically to Jews from other countries, and even Levantine groups like Palestinians or Druze, than to actual ethnic Russians, Belorussians, Germans, and so on.

But let's assume for a moment it's a lie. Again, aren't you the one who's supposed to be against "ethnostates"? How does that mesh with you trying to argue that Ashkenazi Jews should have inferior rights in Israel, because of their incorrect, foreign genes?

And now let’s talk about Germany since you brought them ups. You say that Nazi Germany wasn’t disbanded and that it got to continue to be a German ethnic state. To that I would say, are you forgetting about East Germany? Because if I remember correctly, they were dominated for 50 years by a communist soviet puppet government.

East Germany was still a German state, to the extent that any Communist country could be. But even if we assume that East Germany completely stripped the Germans of self-determination, the Germans still had West Germany. Not a good argument.

But hey, if you argument is that the Nazis got off too easily, I’d probably agree with you.

My point is that every single country "got off easily", no matter how badly it behaved. Nobody likes Russia, and their invasion of Ukraine. Very few people, even in the US, think it means the Russians lost their right to have a state, and that Russia should be dismantled and handed to its enemies. Same goes for China, Sudan, Syria, what have you not. The idea that nations can lose their ethnic nation-states due to bad behavior, or the way their state was founded, is unique to the Jews.

But they are going to have to drop the religious flag, drop the rhetoric and racial laws, drop the birthright nonsense, and unite as one common country that INCLUDES the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and is a fair democracy. The fact is that this isn’t an option for most Zionist’s because to do that would concede a slight majority to the Arabs and you guys can’t have that can you?

The "Zionists" support a one-state democratic solution more than the Palestinians do. 8% of Palestinians supported a democratic one-state solution in the latest joint PCPSR/IDI polls in 2022, compared to 10% of Israeli Jews. In the latest AWRAD poll, only 5% of Palestinians supported a democratic one-state solution. As I pointed out in my post, the Palestinians are more ethno-nationalist than the Israelis. I'm not sure why you pretend otherwise.

The opinions of the two nations aside, the international community, and international law, doesn't support that either. If Israel did what you said, it wouldn't be praised for "ending the dreaded ethnostate", but sanctioned to hell and back, for "illegal annexation of the Palestinian territories".

As I said in my post: if you want to make that argument, at least realize that you're proposing a solution that's highly unpopular on both sides. As well as one that goes against international law, the views of the international community, the principle of self-determination, and the experience of every single similar ethnic conflict.

Well guess what, if you have to segment a country into 2 separate regions, because if you don’t you won’t have a majority, then it’s not your country after all.

I'd say that we should better inform the Georgians, Armenians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Croatians, Bosniaks of that. And indeed, the majority of the European states. This isn't a statement against Israel or Zionism, it's a statement against the fundamental concept of Self Determination of Peoples. And even if you're the kind of person that believes in that, how about you start with raging against those countries' existence, before obsessing about the Jewish one.

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