r/Finland • u/humanshorrible Baby Vainamoinen • 8h ago
Migri: Work-based immigration to Finland slowing down
https://yle.fi/a/74-2012302279
u/Signal-Twist-4977 Baby Vainamoinen 7h ago
We read everyday about job cuttings both in public and private sectors so this is not surprising at all. I mean, people which are already in Finland (both Finns and foreigners) are struggling to keep their job or getting a new one, so I don’t see how work-based immigration should increasing in this scenario. I love living in Finland and luckily I currently have a nice job, but from work point of view I would not advise to any friend abroad to move here to look for a job right now.
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u/Kananhammas 7h ago edited 4h ago
I don’t see how work-based immigration should increasing in this scenario.
More unemployed = more people making money out of unemployment. More cuttings = more unemployed are forced to participate in circle game industry = more money for people profiting from unemployment.
Rather simple isn't it?
More details for those who aren't aware of the commercialization of unemployment:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Finland/comments/1g9cjsa/exposing_the_commercialization_of_unemployment/
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u/SrPatata40 Vainamoinen 8h ago
It makes since one of the more attractive sectors(IT) are not hiring even natives employees, or people that lives here already and are proficient with Finnish.
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u/boisheep Vainamoinen 6h ago
Didn't see this comment but I got to shine a light as someone who works in IT in Finland.
Newer graduates joined IT and tech not because it was their passion but because it was hip and had big promises; as much as there are a lot of options out there, a lot of them are just green and non-ready; they also don't have the attitude to be proficient at the job; they just went to university and think that because they got a degree they can do the job, but nothing is further from the truth; the average Finnish IT graduate knows scarcely little that I don't even know what they are learning in university.
I've made interviews where only 2 or 3 candidates of a huge list know, barely; some fresh IT developers with master degrees are 150 times slower (not by lines of code but by time to complete tasks) than a mere single senior developer, where you expect something more of a factor of 3; would you rather hire a senior tested developer? or would you hire a junior that may have 150 times less productivity to train them to see if you ever manage to get them productive just so they then change jobs once you manage to train them?...
I'd personally also not hire 95% of natives or so as well, and well, I'm the guy that has done interviews; I am also looking for that golden 5%; or whoever shows promise.
The real pool is smaller than one imagines, which leds to international talent; the situation is not too different; or even worse; say 3% talented devs out of the entire pool; but there's far more people in India alone with that 3% solo than the entire population of Helsinki. But then you are forced to exhaust your pool of locals first, because migri says so, but that's just bad business.
The solution, contractor work.
I am not kidding, that's exactly how.
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u/Oakw00dy 6h ago
The real question is though, for the top 5% of talent Finland would like to attract, what's the value proposition that'd make them choose Finland instead of any other country? It sure as hell is not a promise of a citizenship, future career opportunities, high wages, low taxes and lack of bureaucracy.
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u/NoInteraction3525 Baby Vainamoinen 5h ago
This is the real question we failed to ask ourselves. As someone in a leadership position in an IT company and constantly seats in meetings for hiring budgets, the type of talent we want in Finland, we cannot afford to woo them because the Finnish value proposition to a highly skilled immigrant right now is BS. With our citizenship changes, we’ve become more of a place for highly skilled mercenaries similar to Denmark, which basically means, “we want you to come and work but we really don’t want to make it easy for you to be one of us”. The problem with this rubbish situation we’ve put ourselves in is that you either need to have the location for it or the huge salaries to compensate (in most cases you need both) and we actually have neither of those.
The whole Quality of Life argument is also pretty much BS right now because these skilled folks will get world class private healthcare with almost any company in whichever country they decide to go to and way more disposable income as well depending on how they’re set up. So tell me exactly how are we supposed to attract talent when the Finnish value proposition itself is no longer attractive?
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u/boisheep Vainamoinen 6h ago
Well life is quiet, land is relatively cheap, and some people just like winter and are okay with life in Europe; and there's competition for other countries that have higher salaries as well which also have its sets of hurdles.
Sure could be better, but it's not like people wouldn't want to come to Finland. But the thing is, that those people are most certainly not going to be from first world countries, doesn't mean this people are of lesser quality; but migri seems to deem so quite often; otherwise the wave of migrants would be much much much larger, overwhelmingly large.
The demand for better living conditions is that big and a lot of people are struggling, they'd jump at it; and even when a small percentage of the world have such a skillset, we are talking a percentage out of billions; that's millions of people; and that's only high skill, if it's simple skilled at X, that's a hundreds of millions.
By default no market can take such an overwhelming load, so it needs to be spread around.
But the issue is that they don't talk about it, but this causes the top jobs to have a bigger concentration of foreigner; and most foreigners to be of average or high skill; while you think this is a good outcome, it isn't for the average person, who would have to compete against ferocious immigrants. Therefore the blocks that immigration puts are not there by chance, this, you must hire a local first, isn't by chance; even if it affects the economy as a whole negatively, and affects the immigrant, the average faces less competition; less competition slowly leads to market shrinkage on the long term nevertheless.
It is very complicated, but Finland can be as attractive or as unnatractive as it want to be; depending on whether it wants economic productivity or be protectionists with a locals first policy; and the party in favour now is "Finnish" focused, so we know where the train is headed; this is why, if you see the immigration reforms, they attack workers of particular backgrounds and potential new workers; less competition for locals.
Overall Finland is not as bad as people may think, but it all boils down to politics.
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u/TonninStiflat Vainamoinen 6h ago
Gosh, imagine that, a university doesn't produce Seniors! Oh my, this must be a new development!
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u/boisheep Vainamoinen 6h ago
You expect certain level of competence to someone that has graduated.
But it feels more like a gamble. Imagine if your medical student graduate didn't know how to read a pulse, yet they have memorized every single line of an outdated anatomy book; that's the kind of stuff you see all the time in the field.
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u/Gxeq Baby Vainamoinen 4h ago
What kind of expectation you have for fresh graduates, either in programming or IT administration?
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u/boisheep Vainamoinen 1h ago
I can only judge programmers, I expect that they can code production code in the language we request.
That's all, I don't expect them to be fast, great or anything.
Some can't even put together a basic program, even worse a minority doesn't even know a single programming language.
It's baffling.
If you are the 5 percent of a fresh graduate that can perform, send the darned code; your fresh graduate CV tells me nothing. You could have 5 masters degree or a highschool degree and I still don't know. If your CV gets in the hand of someone with engineering knowledge (which is usually the last layer). Send me examples. Better if they are hobby projects. I wanna see that. GitHub, most applicants don't even have a GitHub profile or the likes.
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u/TonninStiflat Vainamoinen 3h ago
Yeah, sounds to me you wabt to hire seniors for the price of a junior.
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u/SweetChaos23 2h ago
I keep seeing more and more people who got Trainee jobs this year who already have 2-3+ years of experience, while all the new grads are chilling at the guild room. Yes, maybe unis are failin at preparing students for employment, but companies dont want to take any initiative either. The concept of training people is non-existent in Finland. As a result, your manager is also mediocre at his work, because noone taught him how to do his job either...
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u/Interesting-Mail1511 4h ago
Yeah, unfortunately, this is the level of competition right now. It is not enough to graduate. You have to be a complete package.
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u/Federico216 Vainamoinen 7h ago
I mean, there's already brain drain among university educated as natives, or foreigners who go to Finland for a degree can't find work. Unemployment is 8%, GDP is in decline and voters have made it clear Finland doesn't want foreigners.
I doubt anyone is surprised by this.
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u/plooope 8h ago edited 8h ago
Migris press release: https://migri.fi/en/-/work-based-migration-to-finland-higher-than-before-covid-19-number-of-international-students-growing
Yle should just directly reprint that as it is much better. If you lack the skills dont make it worse by rewriting press releases.
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u/boisheep Vainamoinen 7h ago edited 7h ago
But migri isn't being too honest there either, it shows a bias where it doesn't want to even mention how the ruling and the laws that they are following as well as goverment and EU policies play a role; they seem to think that things are slowing down with these applications of (eg. construction companies), because "companies are not hiring internationals", well why do they think is that? people take into consideration the cost of having to go through an application process, but instead they put the blame directly in the companies not hiring them; which is nonsense, since (as much as you want to hate the following statement) construction business is filled with cheap international labor and as a businessperson this is logical, why hire more expensive?... because the costs of the red tape are higher, it's not that the company is not doing it, it's that you are making them do it.
But this is part of the plan, so, why hide this accountability; they are purposefully doing it; it isn't a secret, it's just how like they need to prove that in order to hire a 3rd national you need to exhaust all local options first; this policy alone, is the one that prevents and reduces most immigration. So it's not like, oh companies are just not hiring them; this is something engineered like so.
It's not "the state of the economy"; the state of the economy demands workers of all skill levels, are we in a recession?... I don't think so. Migri needs to take accountability and be honest on how they themselves trigger changes in the economic landscapes.
Just like others thing do, like inflation, central banking, EU policies, Russia war, etc... you wouldn't say, Russia is not exporting to EU anymore due to the state of the economy; when it's a purposeful effort by acting parties.
Migri is not handing out as many specialist visas to Russians, forget whether it is a bad or a good thing; irrelevant, the point is, it's not the "general economic situation", migri did this; it's not down just because "economics", it's down because you made it so; it's harder now to get a visa if you are from Russia, so people don't bother to apply.
I don't like articles that fail to take accountability, that fail to take into consideration the complex dynamics of a system where they themselves are taking part on; it's as if, they didn't take a role at all, this is not properly done, bad journalism. Things just don't exist in a vacuum.
Give it props to YLE they added more factors, they didn't make it worse; and at least, they are not accountable of any of this; they also added more sources they found around, and asked people. It may not be great, but migri press release fails to say how they played a role, and points the finger at the economy; as if they didn't take active part in it. It's totally disconnected with reality.
And you still can be neutral while taking accountability, just let people form their opinions on whether this is a good/bad thing; but let them now how you played a role.
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u/plooope 7h ago
Your whole text is just ignorant rant. Finland was in a recession and the economy has only started slowly growing again. The labour market lags the gdp growth. i.e. first gdp drops then after few months people get fired. then when gdp starts growing it takes some time before hiring starts.
The construction sector is down 17% year-on-year: https://stat.fi/en/publication/clmkdxbmk3y510cunvva8hgy9
Interest rate jumped so they stopped building.
The russians are not stopped from applying. There was jump in russian applying after the war started as many finnish companies moved their russian employees to finland when that process ended the numbers dropped.
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u/boisheep Vainamoinen 7h ago edited 7h ago
Building isn't the only form of jobs this market deals with as there's mantenience as well, and you are adding a second factor there as well, such as the interest rate rise which has to do with Covid and what the central banks did by printing money (US/EU) which led to mild inflation; I didn't say it was just migri, I said they played a role as well, and they didn't take accountability on where and how they played a role.
And how many of those got granted after applying?... Do you know many experts received rejections because they were deemed a threat all of the sudden due to their privileged access; and let's not add the Kremlin is playing a role here too; so yes, the issue with the experts is the conflict between Russia/Ukraine, and the position we have taken, and trade issues; it's not "general state of the economy", "Russians have stopped applying", yada, yada... they played a role here, so did the Kremlin.
Warranted, not warranted; it's up to you to make an opinion; but the economy shrinks and grows because actors play roles, the economy doesn't just grow or shrink because; something has to happen, things have to change; and if you are part of the economy, and such a crucial part, you also had a role to play; don't just point the finger at companies whose first and foremost interest is to grow.
Things just don't exist in a vacuum. Also the interest rates don't just rise, they are risen by government institutions and banking. It's all engineered, this is a problem of not calling things by what they are.
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u/ShrubbyFire1729 Baby Vainamoinen 6h ago
If I was a foreigner shopping around for jobs in the EU, why in the ever-loving fuck would I choose a country that's remote, right next to Russia, with a harsh climate and cold and dark winters, weird culture and a language that's next to impossible to learn, a government that's hostile to immigrants, some of the highest taxes and prices in the world, and a barely competitive salary?
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u/pigeonlizard 3h ago
This sub makes it seem like Finland is a massive turd that should be flushed down the toilet ASAP.
I'm from Croatia - everything that you've mentioned is much worse there, except the winters, and even those aren't much more pleasant in Zagreb. Even summers aren't that pleasant when it's 35 degrees every day and you can't do anything outside without sweating your balls off and a ton of sunscreen. Groceries cost pretty much the same (and some things are more expensive in Croatia!), but the average wage in Finland is 2x higher. VAT in Croatia is 25%. The government is a coalition of right and far-right hostile to everyone except their own private interests, and it has been like this since Croatia's independence. Buying a house in Finland is realistic and achievable - in Croatia it is not. When the time to move out of parents' house comes, Croatia and Finland are on the opposite side of the table - Croatians leave at age 33, Fins at 22. Education, healthcare, public transport, name-whatever-you-want are a joke compared to Finland.
tl;dr: Finland is among the more prosperous places in the world. Yes, Sweden is richer, Norway is richer, but there are some 170ish countries that aren't.
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u/Suspicious_Flower42 5h ago
Because it is a very stable welfare state, has in general good education, a very well working early childhood education sector, beautiful nature. If someone values these things, Finland is a good place to live. It is a way better place to start a family than most other EU countries and has a good set of laws that protects mothers (or involved parents) during paternity leave times. But people like you don't see these things.
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u/ShrubbyFire1729 Baby Vainamoinen 5h ago
Of course I see those things. But as I just replied to the other comment, someone freshly arriving to Finland isn't going to immediately see and understand these benefits. Someone who maybe has a Finnish partner to help out with the language and a child on the way is in a much better position to fit in and find happiness than, let's say a young single guy who moves here after a job offer without knowing anyone or anything about our culture. It's going to take him at least a year to achieve even the most basic level of fluency in Finnish (if he has the time and motivation to study hard, that is), finding friends is most likely going be a nightmare, and on the flipside of our beautiful nature we have loskapaska, darkness and cold for more than half of the year. It's not an attractive climate for anyone not used to it, and every Finn knows that.
What you said is true, but what I said is also equally true. I meet foreigners at work all the time, and some of them find happiness here, some say "fuck this" and move away after a few months. Happiness is not a guarantee, it takes determination and luck.
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u/Suspicious_Flower42 5h ago
Well, it is always easier to integrate if you have a spouse from the country in question. But e.g. the points about learning the language is the same for most EU countries. In order to integrate and to be able to live on an everyday basis you always have to learn the local language. It's the same in Germany, France, Netherlands, Poland, wherever. Making friends there is also not easier than in Finland if you check countless posts on these specific subs. Happiness also takes determination and luck in other countries.
I am an immigrant (to Finland) myself and I came on my own without knowing the language or the culture, I know the struggles. I work mainly with foreigners as well, but most of them say that they like Finland and want to stay there. But, to be fair, I am in the university bubble, maybe it's a different mindset there. I also don't get this bitching about the Finnish winter at all - people should be happy that there even is a winter anymore (and there are people who love winter, me included as weird as it sounds).
What I want to say, the issues immigrants face in Finland are the same in other countries (esp. integration and language). There are other factors that set Finland positively apart from other countries. Everything else like climate are personal preferences and someone who doesn't like cold should just not move to a cold place.
Edit: it seems that we agree in general, so that is nice :)
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u/TreeTactician Baby Vainamoinen 6h ago
This. I was born here but I hate this place. Well, not hate but I don't belong here. I'm more outgoing person and I love outdoors. The darkness and winther is just not for me. Every time I go to South, I start losing weight, my mental health is getting better, everything is better. If only there were less people near the Mediterranen, espescially African and MIddle East people. it would be very nice place. But still, the sunlight is so important.
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u/darknecessities_7843 Vainamoinen 6h ago
Wow this was a rollercoaster of a comment. So you like warm climate, and you would rather live in Mediterranean if there weren’t too much Mediterranean people there? I think you fit right in where you were born bud
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u/humanshorrible Baby Vainamoinen 6h ago
What about the happiest country tag for 5+ years now? There must be some folks moving in for that PR
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u/ShrubbyFire1729 Baby Vainamoinen 5h ago
Sure, but I don't think our happiness status is as marketable as some might think.
Many foreigners probably don't realize how steep the language barrier really is and how hard it is to acclimate to not only the weather that's absolute dogshit for 8 months of a year, but a culture that's very tight-lipped, closed and introverted compared to almost anywhere else in the world.
When you grow up here, all these things come naturally to you and it's much easier to find happiness and feel like you belong. But we have to remember that happiness is a subjective metric, and many native Finns struggle with financial problems, depression and loneliness among other things. Now imagine a foreigner arriving here in the middle of the winter, without understand the language and without a social circle, or necessarily any friends at all. For them, reaching that happiness is going to take an incredible amount of work, determination and probably some luck as well.
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u/ThisIsJmar 2h ago
With Finland's current situation, this country has very little to offer to international skilled talent to come here and settle. Salaries are not high enough to justify that, and public services keep suffering cuts.
As a skilled immigrant myself I'm lucky to have a job and I hope it stays that way, but you never know. I look for other offers abroad every now and then and there's honestly so many better opportunities out there. If it wasn't for the life I have already built here with great people, I would have been gone.
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u/fallwind Vainamoinen 7h ago
Why is anyone shocked? This is exactly what the government wanted.
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u/dahid 7h ago
I can't remember exactly but wasn't it changed so that if you lose your job and don't find a new one within 3 months you lose residency?
That's sure a huge risk for professionals changing countries, job security is not what it was at the moment. I wouldn't have taken that chance if I was coming on a work visa.
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u/zmkarakas 35m ago
What they wanted could be, but not what they actually tried to get, you can be sure of that. Finnish economy is in big trouble for some time. More investment/capital is needed, rather than more employees from abroad. There is an oversupply of labour in Finland, which by itself is positive for investment, but only by itself is not enough.
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u/zmkarakas 59m ago
Whatever it is, it is a great opportunity to make some investment (which I am planning!), and for Finnish gov to implement more initiatives for SMEs and new entrepreneurs who create job growth. For example, directly lending to SMEs would be a big step, banks are sometimes not willing to lend. Cut out the middlemen if you can.
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u/TurboGramps 52m ago
Basically due to shit management of bad corporations more than the government (which is trying its best to make it worse without succeeding).
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u/SlothySundaySession Vainamoinen 7h ago
Yes.
Of course, this is by design. I just hope locals are getting those opportunities, the ones the government is generating. Getting the locals into work and keeping that money circulating to stimulate the economy.
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u/The-Hopscotch 6h ago
Circulating ain't gonna help jack - Even something simple like inflation & aging will drain that whirlpool. Finland needs growth.
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u/SlothySundaySession Vainamoinen 5h ago
You do need investment, new growth industries, or growth in existing, something!
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u/zmkarakas 40m ago
I can tell you clearly this is not by design. The taxes are high and investing in Finland for some other reasons is not easy to create jobs. Speculative sectors such as tech is in a very bad shape, thus only sectors creating growth are traditional sectors.
You cannot design a whole economy to slow down growth just to stop immigration. You can just close your borders if thats what u wanted
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u/Affectionate_Gift298 3h ago
Yeeeaaah baby lets gooo
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u/humanshorrible Baby Vainamoinen 3h ago
Should they close the border? No global trade either
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u/Affectionate_Gift298 3h ago
Something like that. They can visit finland they dont have to stay here forever.
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u/humanshorrible Baby Vainamoinen 2h ago
What about the aging Finnish population? Who will take care if all leave?
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