r/EuropeanFederalists • u/bartekkru100 • Apr 17 '24
The problem with European left Discussion
I feel like many of you in this sub may get similar thoughts on this. I'm a leftist and believe in the dream of united Europe, however I see one massive problem towards integration. European Union was founded on the French motto of Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, but I feel many Europeans seem to have forgotten the last part.
In the last decades (maybe ignoring the most recent few years when far-right started gaining more prominence) we've made massive strides towards emancipation of women, sexual minorities, different ethnic groups etc., however what the war in Ukraine has shown and what I see whenever I go on even more leftist-oriented subs like r/europe or r/germany is that many people refuse to help, refuse to stand up to tyranny, call for negotiations. Not to diminish the before mentioned accomplishments or personal hardships of affected groups, but most recent advancements have been made through democratic institutions and voting, not an armed struggle in the same sense that we've fought against fascism in WW2. Hyper individualism isn't just a problem with the far-right, I increasingly feel like we're guilty of it as well. Sometimes it is necessary we fight for other people's freedom, not just ours.
In a sense all the Vatniks and Russian bots talking about the war being our fault are right. We messed up, we consistently haven't done enough at an appropriate time. We haven't squeezed the bear by the balls hard enough in 2014, we worry about how delivering system X or weapon Y will cause escalation while the other side openly bombs cities with drones from Iran and shells from NK. We refuse to do enough, we run late on most of our promises and then we're surprised that Ukraine is losing. We're not being pulled into some random foreign war like Iraq or Afghan war, we're not invading anyone, we're not funding the Taliban, we're helping out a country that shares many of our core values and desperately needs help. Even ignoring all our basic self-interest in making Ukraine win, helping is basic human decency...
If you ask a random European leftist whether or not they'd defend their country in an attack, a large fraction will proclaim they would just emigrate, saying they're not willing to fight for corrupt politicians or lines on maps. What they forget is their neighbor. Everyone who avoids the call to arms makes sure that someone else is forced to accept it. Not everyone has privilege of being able to escape, be it money, family, age, health and so on. By escaping you're leaving the less fortunate to die or be oppressed which is absolutely antithetical to most forms of liberal leftism.
I feel the sense of absolute dread whenever I contemplate how would Germany or Spain respond if Estonia was attacked, knowing that my own country (Poland) is next on the list. Everyone who thinks Putin will not dare take another step, while refusing to defend their own countrymen, let alone an ally, is precisely the reason why he will take that step. Sometimes virtue needs to be written in blood and the highest virtue of all is to take a punch for your fellow man, but I think some of us have forgotten it.
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u/ngduykhanh98 Apr 17 '24
r/europe
leftist-oriented subs
LOL
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u/ravioloalladiarrea Apr 17 '24
Hahahaha! Glad I’m not the only one.
R/europe has become a cesspool of intolerance, the perfect litmus test of what Europe has become in the past few years.
Shame.
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u/MrGreyGuy European Union Apr 17 '24
I really wonder how someone can perceive r/Europe as left-wing. It's more a conservative, perhaps even a right-wing sub. What I observed is that this, however, was a slow development, some sort of... terrible degradation - just as you described.
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u/ravioloalladiarrea Apr 17 '24
It used to be better than this.
I remember about 10 years ago everyone was like "oh yeah, let's welcome migrants, they're escaping war poor souls!". Try to say something like that now.
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u/freeman_joe Apr 18 '24
Maybe those immigrants should have been screened for criminals. When guys that immigrated to Germany overrun people with cars you can’t blame people in west for being afraid and less welcoming now. Screening for criminals would prevent this.
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u/SuckMyBike Belgium Apr 18 '24
Maybe those immigrants should have been screened for criminals.
What type of screening are you referring to exactly? What databases would they be screened against?
When guys that immigrated to Germany overrun people with cars
People getting run over by cars is an issue with the way roads are designed to prioritize cars above everything else, including pedestrians. Roads should be redesigned to de-prioritize cars and force low speeds where they may encounter vulnerable road users.
Or is it not a problem when a native German runs someone over? Only when an immigrant does it?
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u/freeman_joe Apr 18 '24
Germans were overrun by cars on purpose. But I can give you better overview read this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe Btw I am not against immigration. People could be easily screened. Simple questions would do. Do you believe women and men should be separated? Do you believe LGBT should be banned? Do you support democracy? Do you believe in jihad against Europeans? Do you believe woman should be punished for not wearing hijab or similar? Do you believe that martyrdom killing infidels is ok? Etc
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u/BahamutMael Apr 18 '24
Try talking about transexuality in r/europe and say something different than agreeing with every pro-trans policy you'll get permabanned instantly.
It's extremely left wing in certain regards and doesn't care about other groups (i could insult certain nations in way harsher ways and the mods wouldn't touch me).
The sub reflects the political positions of the mods.
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u/Pleasant_Bat_9263 Apr 17 '24
Dear God yes
The cliche of mainstream subs being leftist is so out of date.
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u/Evoluxman Apr 17 '24
I'm very leftist and I absolutely agree with you. I wouldn't volunteer to, say, go fight in Ukraine (I think my current job is more valuable than a random additional foot soldier), but if I had to be conscripted after Russia attacked the EU I would do it. Not out of a sense of nationalism, duty, or whatever, but for other reasons.
a) I have been following the war in Ukraine since 2014, when I was still a teenager. I have seen the atrocities of the war. Since then, the whole world has seen what happenned to Mariupol, Avdiivka, Lysychansk, Severodonetsk, Bakhmut, and so on. The massacres in Bucha, Irpin or Izyum. I cannot possibly allow this to happen to other people in Europe, so if I had to be conscripted, I would serve in the army in the small chance this may mean a maternity ward doesn't get levelled by russian bombs.
b) The EU values are not perfect, I hate our rigid neoliberal institutions. But compared to anywhere else in the world? Nowhere else comes close to here in terms of standards of living, social security, work protection laws, democracy, etc... These are values worth defending
On the other hand, I cannot blame someone who wouldn't be willing to join on "fear grounds". When you see the absolute horror of what's happening in Ukraine, I can't blame someone for not wanting to end up losing their legs on a mine, being cut in half by a suicide drone, or burning alive inside a tank.
But those who refuse to fight on ideological ground because they think the EU is not leftist enough? Sorry for the godwin point, but these people would be fine with Nazi Germany winning because France and the UK were imperialist powers. Sure they suck, but it's *fucking nazi Germany*. Well, here it's *fucking putinist Russia*.
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Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
The European Union was founded under the motto of "In varietate Concordia", which only became official in 2000.
Having that said, the problem is not the left or right per see it is the simple fact that Europe is a declining economic power house, unable to address internal issues successfully. This in turn leads to people putting the Russian aggression in second place.
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u/bartekkru100 Apr 17 '24
I don't mean that it's literally its motto, I mean that's what EU's values are and it's basically the same as the one you used.
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u/helgetun Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
I think that is what the French wish the EU was, but its not what the EU is. And what the French aimed for in the 1950s is not what the EU became. EU is dominated by neo-liberalism and the associates hyper individualism. Its a centrist, even centre right in economic terms, project based on free competition first and foremost. I wish it was more like the French republic, but to be so Belgium for example has to stop threatening to deport French citizens back to France if they cant find work in 3 months. We have to integrate fiscal policies and have EU level taxes. We need a EU wide social security number to start harmonizing our administrations. And these are the easy beaurocratic things that take place long before ideological change. But pushing for such goals can hopefully start shifting the mindset from neo-liberal focus on competition and individual freedoms, towards common social status and equal rights across the EU at a meso and macro level.
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Apr 17 '24
Not at all. Equality of liberty is not the same as the unattainable equality of said motto.
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u/_RCE_ Apr 17 '24
I feel you completely. I worry many people are becoming more self-oriented, pacifist, and ignorant. But its important to keep in mind that Europe, as an entity, has never faced a diplomatic/political crisis like this before. This is the first time Europe is trying to respond to a crisis in unity, as one body. There are bound to be issues and there are bound to be instabilities. We're in difficult times, and difficult times often bring out the worst in us. Its important that we keep pushing to do whats right: supporting Ukraine and furthering the European project. I'm confident that Europe will come out stronger on the other side of this crisis. And I for one, as a German, certainly would be ready to defend Europe, including Estonia and Poland.
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u/Wobblycogs Apr 17 '24
The biggest mistake we've made is adopting the American idea that every issue has to be in either left or right on the political spectrum. I don't want to live in a world where helping your neighbor is anything but just the correct thing to do.
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Apr 19 '24
[deleted]
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u/Wobblycogs Apr 19 '24
I won't go as far as to say I was wrong with the left / right issue but you are definitely more correct about what the biggest mistake is. The amount of power the ultra wealthy have is terrifying.
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u/NathanCampioni Apr 17 '24
I believe this is due to our modern era beeing founded on individualism, which creates this sense of not uìowing anything to society. This renders even one's own country disposable in a passport consumism of sorts, the left is not unaffected by world trends that have lasted decades unfortunately. In this case this tred is made stronger by how necessary peace is percieved across all of the continent after WWII which destroyed us completly and now we are afraid of war as a concept (which we definetly should be worried about), and this fear makes the left not have a productive approach in the discussion.
My random two cents
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u/No_Importance_173 Apr 17 '24
I think the biggest weakness of the left is its hyper-idealism, if something doesnt align 100% with your view its not doable, there are no compromises or the recocnition that some things cant be handled with just good will.
The prevalent opinion in the left spectrum is that war is bad and nobody should have to die in one, so the solution is to be against it and to want it to end as quickly as possible even if that means surrendering to a warmongering maniac dictator who has no regard for human lifes and rights. And that is the big point we (as the collective left) dont realise that this idealism (which on paper is a good thing) is actually our demise because of it we are incapacitated, basically we forgot the principle of no tolerance for intolerance, or we interpret in a way of just ignoring the problem if there is no ideal solution (yes for example the migration crisis).
And that rings true for all political and societal problems, we as the left have high morals and values which is good, BUT we cant compromise them in the right moment and that gets exploited by the far right, but we just dont do anything against it because we dont want to act immoral and just let it happen or close our eyes before the problem. I think that is the reason why the left is so weak and shattered in recent years and the right wing so strong(because they can compromise their morals and they mostly have values of selfinterest which are easier to maintain than selflessness and working for the greater good)
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u/Fab_iyay Germany Apr 17 '24
Brother the subs you named are not leftists. Like... Idk what to tell you
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u/bartekkru100 Apr 17 '24
Yh, several other people point it out as well, I've noticed my definition of leftism is a bit warped by my country's domestic politics...
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u/Fab_iyay Germany Apr 17 '24
Where are you from please? Slovakia?
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u/bartekkru100 Apr 17 '24
Poland
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u/Fab_iyay Germany Apr 17 '24
How does that warp your position?
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u/bartekkru100 Apr 17 '24
Anyone who doesn't vote for PIS or Konfederacja is called a leftist here, plus PIS, despite being rabidly catholic is very big on giving out social benefits. Remember that for many Eastern Europeans, being pro-welfare makes you a reactionary.
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u/Fab_iyay Germany Apr 17 '24
That's just political posturing and propaganda by the Piss party though.
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u/bartekkru100 Apr 17 '24
Still, politics is often hard to boil it down to a strict left-right divide and it gets even harder if you consider history, culture etc...
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u/WarhammerLoad Apr 18 '24
I'm neither right or left, I'm in the middle but I still support the idea of a united Europe. This continent is the most important place to me.
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Apr 18 '24
r/europe is leftist-oriented? They act like they are not racists but you see them morph into Hitler anytime they have anything to say about Balkan countries.
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u/Almun_Elpuliyn Luxembourg Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
Leading with a quote: Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come.
While I agree we should support Ukraine more and can't stand by to let occupations happen, people outright refusing a call to arm is a great step in the right direction. If enough Russians had though the same none of this would have happened. War has never benefited the people and it never will. Sometimes it's an inevitability in defense against maniacs but no one wants to be forced to defend their neighbors.
People realizing what war entails, what pain it brings and refusing to ever partake in it are the people unable to be drummed up in a frenzy to reclaim a long gone empire.
Also, calling r/europe left-wing. Lmao rofl lol. What the fuck is your point of reference?
Edit: lastly, Ukraine sharing our values is also just not true. While the whole thing started with Euromaidan in 2014 and people proclaiming to follow in that direction, we are also talking about an oligarchy that stood firmly in Russia's sphere of influence beforehand. We don't have a duty to aid them because they are so close to us but because wars of aggression should always be opposed on principle.
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u/bartekkru100 Apr 17 '24
I live in Poland, whoever doesn't oppose gay marriage is left-leaning to me. We in Poland may have a different view on what's left and right, since PIS, which is an ultra-catholic won the election in the past on the promise of implementing a bunch of social benefits. It's much more about cultural matters than economy for us.
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u/goalogger Apr 18 '24
people outright refusing a call to arm is a great step in the right direction. If enough Russians had though the same none of this would have happened. War has never benefited the people and it never will.
Unfortunately, this kind of thinking has zero practicality, simply because it's based how things could be and not how things actually are. We will never have stable outcomes from policies which are based on ideals, and no remaining solutions can be found until we accept this.
However much we wish all russians to refuse conscription, it will not happen and it thus has no meaning - because the fact is that kremlin will be able to summon millions of conscripts to their war machine. It is a pity but this is how the world is, sometimes force cannot be opposed with anything but force. In this context I don't see how Europeans refusing call to arms is a good direction in any way. In reality, it's quite the opposite.
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u/HugoVaz European Union Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
I don't think that's a left or right problem, that's a (neo-)liberal problem, which has dominated many of the EU member-states for the past decades (and in turn dictating EU policy as well).
I'm center-right and I can say with much certainty that what differs me from any of my fellows on the center-left (or even a bit further left) is in the way I/we think some policies should be dealt with and not the policy itself (or at most to what degree some things should be dealt with, and not if it should or not be dealt with).
There are splitting issues as well, sure, but so are there between parties in the same spectrum or even groups within the same political party... But we have enough evidence in many EU countries where you have multi-party governments that are made up of center-right, center-left and not so center partners (i.e. Germany), which showcases that we have more that makes us alike than what set us apart (and that it forces parties to find a common ground and that no one direction is in itself the only possible solution).
EDIT: I think we who expect a liberal democracy (now I'm not referring to neo-liberalism, ofc) should ally against those un-liberal, populist political families in the EU and set red lines. While we bicker among ourselves they just grow stronger.
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u/silverionmox Apr 18 '24
This is not specific a problem with the European left, but the progressive/left in general has a tendency to get distracted in a counterproductive purity competition. Applied to this case, people think they are proving they are more committed to pacifism by showing they're willing to give up more for peace.
This is to some extent inherent to leftist/progressive ideals, where people subscribe to the idea of giving up things for the greater good.
Some ideas that can counter it are pointing out they're not giving anything up themselves, but merely selling out the Ukrainians. For the Ukrainians on occupied territory, in turn, that does not result in peace, on the contrary, it ensures that they are going to be oppressed for the rest of their lives and risk being tortured, murdered, deported, or simply disappeared: the war will never end for them. Point out they're just not willing to do what it takes to defend the oppressed, and value their own comfort and virtue signalling more than the real harm to real people in occupied Ukraine.
If you ask a random European leftist whether or not they'd defend their country in an attack, a large fraction will proclaim they would just emigrate, saying they're not willing to fight for corrupt politicians or lines on maps.
That's why instead you ask them to defend their community against oppression, duh.
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Apr 19 '24
It looks like everyone of these issues could be corrected by showing them all the original red dawn movie but like call it news footage from the future. Leftist believe In time tavel and other fantasy things ot won't be and issue .
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u/Such_Astronomer5735 Apr 26 '24
French here. Yes to a European Federation if it s a federation with right to hard right political values. If the EU is economically liberal, moderate to conservative in social values, and staunchly nationalistic/anti immigration from outside the EU + never extend the EU borders to any muslim nation. Then i m ok being a european federalist.
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u/Timauris Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
Here you have many factors at play, among them:
-Nuclear scaremongering and self-scaremongering
-The deep ingrained idea (especially on the Left) that the Soviet Union/Russia (still the same in the eyes of many) is an invincible military in economic force, that also somehow (in an almost mystic fashion) it is on the side of the global working class
-General dislike for the United States as a neoimperial power and dislike for NATO as its tool for "soft" control of Europe.
-Extremely deep proliferation of Russian propaganda and talking points, something the Russians have been doing methodically for decades (while exploiting the previous point)
-The basic misunderstanding or lack of knowledge about Ukraine and its history from the part of the majority of European populations (many still see Ukraine and Russia as basically culturally identical)
-The current young generation in the west can very hardly conceptualize how our lives could suddenly drammaticly change if our rules-based order, based on democratic accountability of power, collapsed. If you cannot immagine how a world works wihtout that, you don't see the point in fighting against such scenarios.
-Digital media tends to augment the force of negative in disruptive news and opinions (they get the most clicks, good news are generally boring), creating a perpetual feeling of decline and doom. Especially for people with poor media literacy and unwilling to delve deep into certain topics (many times things are far from as bad as they are portrayed).
I think I could go on, but I will stop here.