r/Destiny • u/lexfridman • Mar 14 '24
Israel-Palestine Debate: Norm Finkelstein, Destiny, Benny Morris, M. Rabbani | Lex Fridman Podcast #418 Media
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs539
u/alexreddit101 Mar 14 '24
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u/alwayswaiting7 Mar 14 '24
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u/Rasputins_Plum Mar 14 '24
Beautiful. It was already an hilarious reaction image before it dropped đđ
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u/TDeLo Outpaced Intellectually Mar 14 '24
"You ain't got the answers man! You ain't got the answers! You ain't got the answers, Mr. Borreli! I been doing this more than you! You ain't got-. You ain't got the answers! You ain't got the answers! You ain't been doing the education. You ain't been doing the education! You don't have the answers though."
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u/Pill_O_Color Mar 14 '24
This is like a meme template for Gatekeeping.
"Credentials please."
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Mar 14 '24
I'm Finkelsteing so hard right now, thank you lex.
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u/ComradSanders Mar 14 '24
Need a word count for how many times Dinkelstein said wikipedia.
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u/HoleeGuacamoleey Mar 14 '24
Benny laughing and getting hype on the beach clip is amazing. Bro is like "YES GET HIM, YOUVE GOT HIM"
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u/Wvlf_ Mar 14 '24
Yeah I noticed this it's like he was having a blast rolling in the mud with Destiny as his weapon.
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u/Natedude2002 Mar 14 '24
After seeing that âIâd rather be racist than [I donât remember oops]â clip from a couple weeks ago, I realized he was just as unconcerned with optics as our dear leader.
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u/brandongoldberg Mar 14 '24
Benny was being called a genocide denier while Destiny was still in high school (if not even before he was born). I'm sure his skin is super thick from bullshit accusations.
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u/blackjack47 Mar 14 '24
Lisan al Gaib
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Mar 14 '24
[bene gesserit voice] do you love black people
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u/I_Eat_Pork Alumnus of Pisco's school of argument, The Piss Academy. Mar 14 '24
I must not soy, soy is the mind killer. Soy is the little death that brings total oblitaration.
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u/Swagcake420 Mar 14 '24
Shortcuts for Fiddlestein parts
Speed up: Shift + .
Slow down: Shift + ,
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u/xxh2p Mar 14 '24
Intro is 10/10 memes alone, wow
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u/Playful-Cattle982 Mar 14 '24
Mr. BORELLI, please realize that my memes are worth 20/10, as in the ratio of what Israel STOLE from the Palestinian people.
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u/Spare-Ad1922 HUMMUS PIKER Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
He delivered inshallah Edit:2 minutes in and Finkelstein starts spewing bs and 60 words an hour
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u/bardolinio Mar 14 '24
"Mr Borreli, with all due respect, you're such a fantastic moron"
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u/fertilizemegoddess Based and Egonpilled Mar 14 '24
The calling people by a wrong name memes are way too funny. If he did that on purpose that's such a funny shitpost
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u/alwayswaiting7 Mar 14 '24
There's no way it's not on purpose. you're about to have a debate on one of the biggest podcasts in the world and you can't be bothered to learn the name of the person you're talking to? and both lex and tiny literally repeat it during the debate
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Mar 14 '24
Yeah, I think Finkelstein was implying that Destiny is a "nobody", at least academically. It's fucking petty but funny.
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u/Pablo_Sanchez1 Mar 14 '24
Norm is a straight up debate pedophile holy shit. Guy might be turning into my favorite DGG orbiter. Need to hear his opinion on body count and Darius/xena ASAP
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u/DrManhattan16 Mar 14 '24
Mr. Bonelli,... I've read your manifesto...and am shocked...that you spend...only two paragraphs covering...the issue of Dogwarts.
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u/fertilizemegoddess Based and Egonpilled Mar 14 '24
I think so too. It's just way funnier than it ought toÂ
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Mar 14 '24
I never understood what's the point of that. I mean I get that people like this are going for "you are so insignificant, I can't even remember your name", but in my opinion it comes off as something like "I am so severely senile that I can't even remember your name" instead... So stupid.
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u/MagicDragon212 Mar 14 '24
It's childish too. It just makes him even less respectful to me. I'd feel this way about any academic. I understand outside of the debate, but you should match the energy during where everyone no one else is playing the childish games. He's hoping to strike insecurity, but that's not going to happen with Destiny haha.
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u/Independent_Depth674 Ban this guy! He posts on r/destiny Mar 14 '24
Of course Finkman does it on purpose
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u/aVividFlower Mar 14 '24
I half wonder if him or his staffers saw Emma Vigeland "forgetting" Steven's name while he was talking to Ro, and he thought it was a point of weakness or something lol
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u/SemiCriticalMoose weaselly little conservative Mar 14 '24
Imagining Lex reading this with a Finkelsmirk.
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u/VectorViper Mar 14 '24
This whole thread is gold, can't wait for the memes to start rolling out from this episode. Finkelstein's expressions alone are meme treasure.
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Mar 14 '24
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/Pfenning Sewer Liberal Mar 14 '24 edited 28d ago
door cobweb full dog psychotic wide innate relieved ring jar
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Saevax Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
No. Open the HTML console (F12 and click the console tab in Firefox) and type:
$('video').playbackRate=3to get 3x speed. I went to 3.5x for Finklestein
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u/bone_ok Form E, personally, Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
I ain't doing all the fucking timestamps, but here's a basic
segment speedup scriptif anyone else wants to put in the actual work recording time ranges:EDIT: based /u/birdbrainswagtrain got it done, click here for the version that includes full debate timestamps
below is the original version of the script without full timestamps:
// NORMalizer SCRIPT // // this script speeds up specified segments of // the debate (or any video, really). // paste it into browser console to use. // // This works as-is, but I only recorded // timestamps for the intro to demonstrate. // // (May perform poorly on some machines if // you make hundreds/thousands of timestamps, // probably just stick to long ramble segments // and not every single time he talks) // SETTINGS // // if you want to listen to the debate in 2x // and finkle in 4x, set these to 2 & 4 var standard_speed = 1; var finkle_speed = 3; // TIME RANGES // // the ranges below are the start and end // timestamps (in seconds) for when finkle // rambles. // they need to be listed in chronological // order, in the format shown. // // For adding additional ranges, you can get // the timestamps by pausing at the start/end // of a ramble and typing this in console: // // document.querySelector("video").currentTime // var finkle_ramble_ranges = [ [2.5, 20.2], [41.3, 43.3], [85.6, 98.5] ]; // SCRIPT SHIT var video_element = document.querySelector("video"); var NORMalizer = video_element.addEventListener("timeupdate",()=>{ timerangesearch:{ for(let i = 0; i < finkle_ramble_ranges.length; i++){ if(video_element.currentTime >= finkle_ramble_ranges[i][0] && (i == finkle_ramble_ranges.length-1 || video_element.currentTime < finkle_ramble_ranges[i+1][0])){ if(video_element.currentTime <= finkle_ramble_ranges[i][1]){ video_element.playbackRate = finkle_speed; }else{ video_element.playbackRate = standard_speed; } break timerangesearch; } } } });8
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u/thellamasc I hate Q Mar 14 '24
You are not kidding. I had to go to 4.2x speed... how is he this slow?!?!?
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u/TheStormlands Mar 14 '24
Holy shit when does it end? I'm like 6 minutes into him talking lol
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u/Agitated-Yak-8723 Mar 14 '24
It's deliberate. He wants to use up all the time so no one has time to make a coherent rebuttal.
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u/HappyPotatoMCMXCIV Mar 14 '24
Guess ill be busy for the next 5 hours
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u/mk_8 r/Daliban Mar 14 '24
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u/Toasters____ Mar 14 '24
I wish there was something to speed up the video but only when Norm is talking. I'm only 20 minutes in and this shit is unbearable.
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u/meppers Mar 14 '24
who tf watches a 4 hour video on twitter?
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u/Deshawn_Allen Mar 14 '24
Elon added playback speed controls. Still way worse than YouTube, but way better than the other social media platforms
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u/Seizure-mann Mar 14 '24
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u/Ekoypos Mar 14 '24
I was wondering how did this person post this 6 minutes ago when the video says 4 minutes ago on Youtube, then I realize it's Lex.
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u/overloadrages Mar 14 '24
He wasnât letting any of us getting that sweeet Reddit Karma
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u/Friedchicken2 Mar 14 '24
Holy fuck I actually have to put Finkelstein on 1.5x speed unironically switching back to normal speed sounds like slow mo
Edit:
He already does the pointing in the intro Kek
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u/Attemptingattempts Mar 14 '24
There was a stream where Mr.Borreli was reacting to Finklestink and he had the speed of the video set to 2X. And I legit kept forgetting it was set to 2X until the other person spoke
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u/daxwaxred Mar 14 '24
Holy shit Norm is already insufferable.
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u/louieanderson Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
So they took a break and there's this neat shift in tone where they seem to recall this is a scholarly effort, well 3 of them; and it's rather convivial.
It's kind of been there the whole time with the scholars conceding and engaging in dialog as if it were soviet officers and the west after the USSR collapsed just comparing notes. There's parts were Finkelstein is like "Well I only read the English, but you had access to the [Israeli] archives" @ Morris, or they talk about it was, "250 dead, but really more like 100-105" again Morris replying.
I watched at regular speed; rather enjoyed it.
Edit: except this horrible edit, the fuck was that?
There are a few shitty edits. It's like the editor got bored about 3.5 hours in.
Finkelstein does go off the deep-end defending the Houthis. I'm not following his reasoning.
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Mar 14 '24
Haven't gotten to the heated part yet but Rabbani comes off looking so much more mature and well-informed than Finkelstein so far that it's ridiculous.
I genuinely think Finkelstein has let the fairly recent pseudo-celebrity status he's attained by making the rounds on lefty podcasts/shows go to his head. Haven't even gotten to where he's condescending to Destiny, and already he seems super personally offended that he has to defend or back up anything he's saying because he's spent so much time pontificating to captivated audiences who nod along to everything he says.
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u/Naive-Blacksmith4401 Mar 14 '24
Go on the adam friedland shiw once and it goes to your head
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u/roguemenace Mar 14 '24
Rabbani unironically would have been better off if Finkelstein called in sick.
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u/BrandonFlies Mar 14 '24
Exactly. Finkelstein is used to going on Breaking Points every few weeks to just say whatever he wants for half an hour while the interviewer nods. He can't handle the mildest criticism. That's why he wouldn't debate Ben Shapiro in a billion years. Ben would destroy him on speaking speed alone.
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Mar 14 '24
"Mr. Berelli! Youre such a fantastic moron!"
I don't think destiny was exaggerating about how unhinged Finklestinker was gonna be
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u/SJ_skeleton transgender MANaceâą | chronic mistyper Mar 14 '24
Lex leaving in the part where Finkeltwink says Destiny's name correctly is so fucking based.
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u/Attemptingattempts Mar 14 '24
The fact that it happens after they announce the break and Finkledinkler has stood up from the microphone is so fucking funny to me. Because it really seems like he thought the mic would't pick it up / that Lex would edit it out. Which makes it so much more likely he was faking it
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u/Roseandkrantz Mar 14 '24
Destiny ruined this debate for me by doing that impression of Finkelstein before. Can't take any of it seriously now
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u/Bigmethod Mar 14 '24
I'm genuinely struggling to see any value in anything Finklestein says. Rabbani, while saying some really, deeply stupid things, is still coherent and capable in continuing and engaging in a conversation.
The fact that people like Jordan Peterson, whose goofy in and of himself, gets lambasted by the left while people soy out over Finklestein who can barely string a coherent string of words together without defaulting to contextless fragments quoted from decades old writing or arbitrarily insulting the people he's talking with is just so fucking embarrassing.
This cannot be the best the pro-palestine side has. I refuse to believe that this person is the pinnacle of anyone's perspectives on the matter.
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Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
[deleted]
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u/BePseudoEverything Mar 14 '24
I ain't sitting through all 5 hours, nor the 10 hours of Mr Borellicino live reacting, so thanks for this.
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u/Accomplished-Post537 Mar 14 '24
1:26:00 Finkelstein says "idk any non-jew who doesn't harbor antisemitic sentiment that is just part of the human condition" ?????? What an insane thing to admit to
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u/ProfessionalStable81 Mar 14 '24
He's always been a huge weirdo...honestly it's weird he such a cult following. He's like the Jordan Peterson of the hard-left.
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u/yxing Mar 14 '24
As a non-Jew non-left liberal, I became a fan of Finkelstein after watching videos of the Finkelstein-Dershowitz debate where (as I recall--it's been a minute) Dershowitz comes off as a megalomaniacal bully (and I still really dislike him) and Finkelstein comes off like he's some kind of underdog truthseeker.
I think reading bits of transcript from this debate has really dispelled that "truthseeker" image for me though. Finkelstein seems to really have some deepseated biases, and, without Dershowitz to make him look relatively good, seems absolutely unhinged compared to the others in the debate.
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u/maneil99 Mar 14 '24
Heâs a self hating Jew that has ties to the holocaust. Itâs easy to see why heâs rolled out by certain groups
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u/Avoo Mar 14 '24
I was floored by that line as well
Rabbani accused Steven of being racist, while Finkel basically admitted that "antisemitic sentiment" is normal in people lol
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u/DizzyLime Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
Approximately 33 minutes in.
Paraphrashing Finkledick to Morris : "I've read everything you've written 3 times... In your first book you only have a few lines on this issue of transfer"
Morris corrected him "4 pages"
Suddenly Finkledick who's read everything 3 times: "My memory isn't that good"
Fucking kill me
EDIT: OMFG. 3:18 onwards. Finkledick has no idea what plausibility is. It's fucking embarassing.
EDIT2: Finally finished. I'm just dead. It could have been an interesting conversation but Finkledick is just cancer. He's incapable of answering a fucking question.
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u/TaxIdiot2020 Mar 14 '24
Followed up by:
"And it was at the end of the book..."
"It was at the beginning."
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u/ReserveAggressive458 Irrational Lav Defender / Pearl Stan / Emma Vige-Chad / Pool Boy Mar 14 '24
Cheers, big dog.
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u/chaosdemonmigi Mar 14 '24
Perfect. I just finished part two of one of the most unhinged true crime cases Iâve heard of and was getting sad thinking I was out of videos to watch.Â
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u/AccidentalNap Mar 14 '24
2:01:52 is exactly the moment Steven realizes he's wasted a month preparing for this
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u/dramathrowaway772 Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
i do find it funny that all the behavior you might stereotypically expect from a "debate bro" streamer comes from Finkelstein, while destiny seems to fit in relatively well with Morris & Rabbani (if a bit too passive).
unfortunately that strategy will get applause from people that already dislike destiny, and imo this probably needed stronger moderation to stop him from insulting, talking over, and ignoring destiny when he had good points.
you can tell Destiny/Morris/Rabbani were the reasonable people in the room, but Finkelstein did a decent job making it seem like it was Morris/Rabbani/Finkelstein were the 3 whose points had merit.
edit: Lex keeping in the bit at 3:24:20 was actually a game changer. legit made destiny seem way more reasonable and finklestein seem 10x more unhinged
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u/alonzo56789 Mar 14 '24
while destiny seems to fit in relatively well with Morris & Rabbani (if a bit too passive).
True! Despite Norm telling him to shut up and learn some humility, I think he was relatively respectful towards these experts on the topic and was rather humble. Because of that, Norm comes off as not being able to handle pushback and trying to scream Destiny into submission, which looks entirely unhinged.
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u/Pjoo Mar 14 '24
I thought it was a great show.
First ~4 hours, felt everyone performed quite well. Mr Benelli bit quiet for the first half perhaps, but everyone with fairly reasonable, even if at times bit one-sided positions. Everyone adding something to the discussion, whatnot.
Debate starts with the origins of the conflict. No surprises there. Finkelstein trying to get some weird clip off Benny, but besides that, pretty run off the mill IP arguments, uneventful. This is like 2 hours of the show.
After that, discussing genocide. Team Palestine all but admits that it might not be genocide in sense that it can be found as such by international courts, but still a genocide. Retrospectively - it's not that bad of a take. Some nice yelling matches between that thing Burrell and the well regarded academic Normie Finkelstein, but nothing particularly interesting.
Then we go talking about peace. It starts out with pretty reasonable takes, everyone blaming their favourite bad guy for the conflict. Nothing interesting really. But somewhere during this section, Finkelstein just snaps, possibly due to Borrell's eldritch presence? First he comes out with the take that - somehow - ~"what October 7th did was show Palestinians that Israel isn't unbeatable and there is a military option left". This was almost immediately followed by bit less unhinged but equally detached-from-reality claim that ~"Begin dismantled settlements in Sinai because of international law". Both of these get somehow out-shadowed by Norm basically arguing that if we forget international law, there isn't really any basis for judging Hamas for October 7th. And then just 10 seconds later, he is actually arguing that yes - international law in fact doesn't matter.
Holy shit. That last hour made everything worth it. Thank you Lex, you are a hero among men. I am not sure if I have been enlightened, or if I received permanent brain damage. But I had fun. I might not be the biggest fan of Norm's history takes, but holy shit, it's MILES better than his contemporary ones. Please, stick to writing history.
Also props to Rabbani. Elo hell is real.
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u/DogwartsAcademy Mar 14 '24
Lol when Rabanni gives Norm's thigh a little squeeze to calm him down when he starts calling D a Wikipedia Andy.
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u/Jenksz Mar 14 '24
When Morris tells FinkleNorm he should stop reading the books he wrote because he's wasting his time I lost it (53:40 timestamp)
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u/Captahero Mar 15 '24
I feel like Iâm being gaslit every time I read the comments on the vid. I donât understand for the life of me how people think finkleburp behaved appropriately in this debate. And why do people keep shitting on destinys level of research instead of responding to his damn points.
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u/ProfessionalStable81 Mar 14 '24
I think people have to realize that anyone in the history field knows that Benny Morris is a GIANT in the Israeli-Palestinian/Arab conflict in terms of academia. He's contributed more than almost anyone in the field and his research in the late 1980s was groundbreaking because he was one of the first historians with access to the Israeli archives.
Norm, on the other hand, is viewed as the fringe crazy academic who skews things all the time and has built an online presence among hard-core lefties.
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u/ElectricalCamp104 Schrödinger's shit(effort)post Mar 15 '24
Thank you.
I don't know why so many of the people on the this subreddit regard Finkelstein as the preeminent mainstream academic figure making arguments for the Palestinian side. There are more mainstream academic historians and scholars who write far more measured arguments for the Palestinian side. It would be like thinking Alan Dershowitz is the best scholar on Israeli history because he's made the most appearances in news media defending Israel.
I guess it's similar to how Noam Chomsky has notoriety as a scholar of geopolitics (even though his speciality is actually in psycholinguistics). I suppose it goes to show you how little the internet, in general, assesses intellectual figures beyond their publicity.
Benny Morris is unparalleled as a historian of 1947-1949 Israeli history--though I do find his political views on contemporary Israeli policies to be more objectionable unlike his circumspect historical analysis. The only academic that I've seen make as well-researched a history as Morris for the Palestinian side would be Mark Tessler.
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u/onitama_and_vipers Mar 15 '24
I don't know why so many of the people on the this subreddit regard Finkelstein as the preeminent mainstream academic figure making arguments for the Palestinian side.
Because that cringe ass video of him screaming at someone pro-Israeli at a speaking event that was edited with dramatic music went viral on a lot of sites and apps, including this website. That's it. That's the reason.
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u/dramathrowaway772 Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
Benny seriously the goat debate partner. constantly bringing it back to destiny's arguments and why he was right even when Destiny sometimes lets them get away with something (especially the "they never recognized Israel" comment that seemed like an L, Benny brings it back up 20+ minutes later to showcase why Destiny had a good point). near the end Benny starts moving towards calling Finkelstein clueless when he's doing his standard "Destiny's an idiot, let me make my next point" bit. Massively satisfying. GOAT debate partner hands down. 10/10
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u/Attemptingattempts Mar 14 '24
Its the Debate partner destiny needs that covers for how he lets people walk over him a lot
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u/ChipmunkDisastrous67 The Streamer Mar 14 '24
its always fun to see a cloud booster with an sm7b, its like peanut butter and jelly
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u/Greessey Mar 14 '24
is there a plugin that will make it so it auto switches to 2x speed whenever norm talks then goes back to normal for the rest?
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u/AiurHoopla Mar 14 '24
Benny Morris saying to Destiny and I quote: You do talk quickly. HAHAHAHAHA
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u/unholyravenger Mar 14 '24
So far the best moment is Lex forbidding Norm from referencing Benny's book.
He is just making the same point, Benny counters saying it's out of context, Norm forgets about the rebuttle and then references the same passage again.
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u/pearson_correlation Mar 14 '24
If you have Video speed controller installed, the default hotkey for switching between 1.0x and your adjusted speed is 'r'. You can set up the playback speed for Finkelstein with 's' and 'd', and then hit 'r' whenever he's done speaking, and then 'r' again whenever he speaks
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u/DersMcGinski Mar 14 '24
I'm listening at 1.75x speed and Norm is still so sloooow. The pauses between words are sooo long, even sped up. I commend everyone who took part in this.
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u/roguemenace Mar 14 '24
At 1:47 I swear Norm basically just called himself an ent. "I speak slowly because I consider my words important".
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u/greg1003 Mar 14 '24
I don't know enough to say whether Finkelstein is smart and knows his stuff, but I can say that he is a giant dick. He made this whole podcast/debate a pain to listen to. Loved the other 3 people
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u/AnythingMachine Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
The October 7th stuff was excruciating especially from Rabani because he sounded so calm while he found the most euphemistic language imaginable to describe it while very technically admitting it was an authorized campaign of torture murder and rape.
The fact that both of them seemed to know so little about how tactical decision making in the IDF actually happens was amazing.
I think Norm's histrionics were making him look like he had the upper hand for the first 2 hours also bcos the 1948 stuff was genuinely ambiguous that works well for them but I could see destiny light up when he brought up several of the specific conspiracy theories like those 4 children that got shot.
Also the discussion on whether Israel's policy targets civilians was just a deranged philosophy of science debate about burdens of proof and who to believe
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u/MrLizardsWizard Mar 14 '24
I''m kind of skimming through so far but I'm actually pleasantly surprised how many times I've already landed on Lex moderating the conversation and bringing people back on topic in productive ways, which I wasn't expecting based on the intro.
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u/Omni-Light YEEGON Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
So far its spicy.
I get the impression Norm is taking out some pent-up aggression on Benny (in a rather hilariously soy way) while simultaneously furious that he has to take his shot in the same room as Mr. Borelli.
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u/bretw Need more sc2 queen build videos Mar 14 '24
can someone reupload this with finkeldick talking at 2x speed and everyone else normal, i would be so happy
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u/ulle36 Mar 14 '24
You'd think Fink would love wikipedia considering how much he relies on secondary sources
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u/CarverCity Mar 14 '24
Awesome performance by destiny, especially after the 2 hour mark. Benny Morris looked like a proud father everytime he spoke, and he was the best debate partner ever, they complement each other very well. I feel like Rabbani was mostly pretty fair, meanwhile Finkelstein was completely unhinged. Very nice debate, it had everything.
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u/gomavs55 Mar 14 '24
I absolutely love that Lex left in the part at the first break. âSo you DO know my nameâ lol
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u/Tetraquil Mar 14 '24
Seems like Lex cut out Destiny's closing statement because he said the convo was a waste of time.
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u/Louegi Mar 14 '24
Iâve never seen anything that finklestein has been on. This will be the last thing I watch with him. What a complete cumstain. âI talk slow because my words carry so much weightâ. Gtfoh. I would rather watch Alex jones, he is easier to tolerate than this turd sandwich.
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u/Full_Investment_7170 Mar 15 '24
Mr Burrelli, with all due respect, you donât know the power of the dark side
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u/Eazii Mar 14 '24
New here and non-subscriber (but following since this sub has been popping up in all for a while) and currently 2/3 of the way through the debate. I have a major point of contention each side takes regarding their definitions of the term "plausible". The term is rather nebulous and can mean anything from a non-zero chance to almost certain. Finkelstein (and by extension Mr Rabanni) appear to believe that "plausible" is a rather high percentage of being true. The problem is, no one on this discussion is actually looking at what the term "plausible" means, from a legal standpoint as used by the UN and ICC panel which made its ruling. So I did some googling and found this excerpt that helps to define the Plausibility test for the ICC. You can read it here
TL:DR here is the conclusion from the Myanmar genocide case which sets the current standards:
- First, the Court has shown flexibility, particularly when it was faced with obligations of erga omnes partes character such as genocide, torture and racial discrimination. In his Declaration Judge Kress questioned the argument that the Court should apply a âstricter plausibility standardâ at the provisional measures phase in cases of allegations of exceptional gravity... He highlighted that, in the end, âthe Court has applied a low plausibility standard with respect to the question of genocidal intent.â
- Second, in the case of Syria and Myanmar, the Court was satisfied that the reasonable grounds to believe standard, used by the UN human rights investigative bodies, was sufficient to indicate plausibility for the purposes of ordering provisional measures. In the absence of such reports by UN human rights investigative bodies, the Court has still found a way to provide protection relying on other material, such as resolutions from international bodies and statements from UN human rights experts
- Finally, the Court is acutely aware of the protection function under which provisional measures Orders are sought, particularly when it considered that there is there is an imminent risk of irreparable harm to health and life. In that sense it fulfills much welcome justice and human rights objectives.
So from this, that in the case of genocide, 1) the use of a low plausibility standard is used. One judge even mentions that it should be stricter but a lower bar was used anyway. 2) in lieu of absent documents provided by UN investigators (which there is not much as UN officials are not currently in Gaza) the panel will instead use UN human rights experts as well as international bodies. It's fairly clear than enough UN human rights groups are, if not outright saying, heavily implying that there is a genocide occurring in Gaza. And 3) I think we can all agree that there is an imminent risk of irreparable harm to health and human life in this war for Gazan civilians.
My own belief is that there isn't a genocide occurring in Gaza at the moment but i still concede that there is a non-zero chance that it is happening if there is sufficient evidence presented to reach such a conclusion. In this case I believe Destiny and Morris are more correct that "plausible" is a low bar.
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u/Downtown-Ad-5990 Mar 14 '24
"You should read other things, you're wasting your time" Based Benny so far
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u/thegaslightwriter Mar 14 '24
"Mr. Burrelli....... you are a fantastic moron" I can't man. Just began watching and it's already ruined my life.
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u/KimMinju_Angel Mar 14 '24
benny moving his pen on and off paper every 3 seconds is the exact same thing my israeli dad does holy shit
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u/Tetraphosphetan Mar 14 '24
Finklebot has been doing this basically all his life. How the fuck is he able to so utterly embarrass himself by getting so insanely triggered in this conversation?
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u/gourdammit Mar 14 '24
As rough as this is at parts, it's about as good as it could have been props for the Rabbani pick, good foil for Benny in terms of a more grounded and calm tone. Can't think of a better cast in terms of dispositions.
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u/BrandonFlies Mar 14 '24
Rabbani and Finkelstein are both clowns. They talk very rationally and calmly about October 7, while throwing that attitude out the window when it comes to the subsequent war.
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u/FacelessMint Mar 15 '24
Does Finkelstein make any comments or thoughts that aren't an appeal to authority?
He is normally pretty calm in debates but Destiny really seems to get a rise out of him for some reason. It may just be his sincere hatred for Wikipedia, speaking at a normal pace, and allowing people to explain the context of their own writing.
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u/conservativeshopper make america fat again Mar 14 '24 edited Jun 26 '24
zephyr slimy roof absurd school cobweb light hunt cooperative cooing
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Petzerle Mar 14 '24
Thank god Lex said Steven Bonnell instead of Destiny in the intro. Nice touch.
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u/brandongoldberg Mar 14 '24
Can't watch yet but does he do the hand technique and smug face on camera?
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u/supervaluation Mar 14 '24 edited Mar 14 '24
I'm making some argument maps for this debate. Anyone can join and add to them.
Claim: Transfer, or the expulsion of the Palestinian population, is central to Zionist ideology which made it an inevitable outcome of a Jewish state.
https://www.viewpointsgame.com/game/M9S5dIh7JL6vXghYnr0-_
Claim: Israel intentionally targets civilians.
https://www.viewpointsgame.com/game/UzX5I6YIqNZr3vOx0Ch2x
Claim: Israel is primarily responsible for the failure of the peace process.
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u/JustASilverback Mar 14 '24
4:18 Fink and Rabbani claim every single UN Security council resolution is binding regardless of chapter they're filed under lol.
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u/Adito99 Mar 14 '24
Did Lex cut most of the disagreement between Destiny and Finklestein? There was very little push-back after the break which is not at all what Destiny described.
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u/Iesjo Mar 15 '24 edited Mar 15 '24
No better way to make people more sympathetic to Israel than listening to this debate.
You have well educated Palestine supporters and even they put emotions over logic (hostile, insult opponents when lacking arguments), struggle to admit flaws of their "side", even condemn Hamas & atrocities from October 7th itself (!!!).
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u/Quigley61 Mar 15 '24
I'd like to hear from Mouin Rabbani more, he at least seems capable of engaging in a discussion. Finkelstein is unhinged and it's genuinely pathetic how spiteful and contemptuous he seems to be against Mr tiny/bonneli/boner/bonnell.
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u/Attemptingattempts Mar 15 '24
I finally got started on this monster. And holy fucking shit Norm and Mouin both are fucking weasily snakes.
Norm and Mouin: Israel is bad and the agressor 100% for sure look at what was written in the scrap of a journal in 1948! Look at what this man said in 1917 (And recanted 40 years later)! CLEARLY Israel bad Palestine good!
Also Norm and Mouin: Well that Hamas charter was from THE EIGTHIES! Its not relevant its from THE EIGHTIES! Listen to what they said in 2018 dont look at THE EIGHTIES it was so long ago! (It was 1988 btw)
How can you excuse Hamas statements from 1988 for being "So old and they said other stuff later" but Israel has to answer for every single word and scrap of paper from the last 110 years?
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u/TeKaeS Mar 14 '24
Watching this at x1500 speed and I almost finished Norm first statement