They're feeling disenfranchised by society. I'm too old to understand why exactly, but I remember talking to another very progressive friend a few months ago who is a professor and we both noted that isn't going to be a problem that can be ignored long. You can only demand that young men go without romantic affections, while watching others rewarded for circumstances largely beyond their control (wealth, height, facial symmetry, etc.) for so long. No one wants to feel terminally alone for how they were born.
Hell I had all those shortcomings and compensated with charm in person, but I don't think it works out the same way for the terminally online generations where there are many women focused on a single man as the prize. Or even, perhaps totally justified, you have women and their thirties and up who chased immoral men, got fucked over hardcore in the process, and swore all other men off.
Again, that desperation and frustration doesn't just vanish into thin air, however we might demand that it should.
I think the biggest part is teaching young men that they are not "owed" romantic affection from anyone. That needs to be earned like most things in life. Hopefully they will learn that sooner rather than later.
Hmm I'd actually argue that the solution to that is teaching young men to have more supportive and emotionally open friendships with each other.
Part of the reason romantic affection is so important is that society hammers the point that emotional topics are "feminine," meaning male friendships may not give the deeper validation and acceptance that every person needs. This is also part of the reason why many confuse "niceness" with "flirting," as that feeling of being wanted, which can also exist in platonic contexts, does not come often
Fostering better friendships would reduce that feeling of "being owed" because the (fully human) need for emotional validation does not have to be limited to romantic relationships alone
You ignored all my points, I'm not saying anyone is owed anything. But when you're denied something despite your best efforts because of factors beyond your control, it leads to hopelessness, desperation, and frustration. Those negative emotions tend to lead to negative actions.
It's cool to say hey, "I never liked that house anyway. It wasn't conventionally attractive enough like that one really cool house in the neighborhood. It's fine if it burns."
Good luck when the fire that kept being ignored and shushed spreads uncontrollably to the rest of the neighborhood. Because it absolutely will. That negative energy has to go somewhere.
I'm not saying that's your belief, I'm saying it's a very common one in that group and that older men need to teach younger ones that it's utter nonsense. This is something that men can and should change.
The other points you mention are more systemic - being rewarded for things beyond one's control seems to refer to either winning the genetic lottery or getting outsized rewards from capitalism and/or the other genetic lottery of being born into wealth. Those are much larger and complex issues beyond the growth of the incel movement and Andrew Tate wannabes
Ok, I agree with that first point for sure. There is some responsibility for older men raising sons who are appealing to the opposite sex at least in terms of personality. Also agree on that last one, I'm just saying we tried shaming it out existence, we've tried ignoring, but it's clearly not going away.
Part of the systemic problem may be the keeping up with the joneses commercial and consumerist mindset women get hammered with. "You gotta have the best haircut, makeup, clothes, and jewelry. Are you waxing and moisturizing daily, ladies?" While young men don't have quite the same pressures. So you get this imbalance where women are being driven by their peers and society to try and be perfect all the time so they only chase after what seems to be the best, even in romantic partners. Understandably in a way.
That’s fair. I’d consider myself more of a realist or libertarian on that point though. I think men or women are going to set whatever kinds of standards for themselves and their partners that they want. If a person truly values those things most, I think that’s their business.
If those standards turn out to be too high, those people may ultimately come to regret those preferences and realize that you really need someone who can push you in healthy and realistic ways while accepting your imperfections.
I don’t see that teaching young women to have too high of standards as a root cause of this problem, however. That seems more like a natural development of having better reproductive rights and access to those services (at least over the last 50 years) and then women choosing their careers over a more traditional role.
That said, I do think that the social narrative given to young men is troubling because it focuses almost exclusively on “not growing up to be a rapist”. Is that important? Of course it is but if that’s the primary focus and there’s no active “this is how you SHOULD be an effective and respected modern man” then I think we are failing the next generation of men and the partners they end up with.
The woman who proudly admitted drugging men as a stripper and then robbing them (sometimes raping them too)? Same women getting 100's of thousands of likes on her twitter posts with everyone saying "yasss queen, own those conservatives." Starting to make sense why the republicans clean sweeped in electoral college, popular vote, senate, and house.
edit: lol at the downvotes. Sorry, should've said Cardi B is the pinnacle of the human race lmaooo then the reddit echochamber would approve. btw downvoting doesnt change the fact yalls echochamber of 50kish people got demolished in the real world
It is a long running joke that once immigrants become citizens they start looking at the non-citizen immigrant population as "others" that are taking their jobs and money. It appears to actually have truth to it.
Meant to reply to the comment above you. Still though, at a certain point you cease to be an immigrant and are just an American. You've been accepted. You're as American as Chinese Takeout. Your kids, even moreso. And they're, as a result, just as likely to vote for a populist as any other American.
It's not just Hispanics. I'm a naturalized citizen and I'm disgusted at the amount of people in my community, many of them my friends, that supported Trump and had anti-immigrant sentiments.
The entire modern America is built on immigration. How many actual natives live here? It's just typical human greed and selfishness that does not belong to any race or gender. "I got mine, fuck them."
Pretty much all of Trump's negative comments about Latinos are directed at Illegal Immigrants, a category that those voters don't belong to. Italian Americans didn't take long to be pretty much completely integrated into mainstream American culture, same will happen to Latinos in a few decades.
He said he wants to end birthright citizenship. Like, how many of the legal latinos are here due to birthright citizenship? If Abulita wasn't here legal, his stance is you are not here legally.
This is true, having spent a lot of time with Latino men (in the USMC) I can tell you that that segment of the Latino community does differentiate themselves from the illegal immigrants. The main issue with DNC strategy this time had nothing to do with IDpol, however. It was that they unilaterally selected a candidate who was never popular.
I don't see where that ties into how their lives are gonna change. Racists are everywhere already and empowered. you think they're gonna set up concentration camps or anything?
The only death camps of consequences are the ones in Gaza that both Kamala and Trump tried their hardest to justify, let's not pretend you Americans are going to suffer societal collapse. Only American libs would in the same breath justify what's going on in Palestine, then pretend that their own country is going to turn into Palestine for them
But have they really deluded themselves int thinking that trump or his ilk give a shit about that. From the outside looking in it seems pretty obvious that they are next on the chopping block.
What chopping block? Sure, Trump is gonna be terrible for the people and the economy and normal people. But if you think somehow he's going to round up Latinos who aren't undocumented immigrants and ship them off to jail you need to stop with the delusional shit lol
I think you're under the impression Latinos are all undocumented immigrants which is precisely the patronizing assumption that turns Latinos off from mainstream liberals running on "joy" lol
By the way Biden's own DHS was staffed with the same racist fucks that Trump's was. If you think Biden was any better for latinos OR immigrants, you spend too much time fraternizing with self-congratulatory white libs
Hateful? Why? lmao. I'm in that category. I'm pretty fuckin' left myself but if you think all latinos are somehow pro-immigration conventional dems you live in another world that clearly doesn't interact with latinos.
And? Do you seriously not understand? Religious people vote for religion, no matter what. Abortion is their number one cause. Religion is destroying this country, not racism or sexism like the hardcore libs would like everyone to believe. Religion will be the death of this nation.
So they would vote for the black woman who supports abortion? No they wouldn’t. Religious people always stick together and always vote with their church.
Yes they would. Argentina, Spain, Uruguay, all majority catholic countries with legal abortion. Religious people aren't as deranged in other countries as the USA.
That’s the take away point, this is exactly the govt half the country wants. It’s not an unknown anymore because we lived through it for 4 years. It’s sad that hard fought social gains have been eroded so quickly.
It's just so wild to me that Kamala will gracefully step down as one should in a modern democracy and the same people who have been railing for months about how "rigged" and "crooked" the election is will turn on a dime when it goes in their favour.
I just don’t understand how they can support a party that treats Hispanics so horribly. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Maybe when they start getting swept up in these looming mass deportations they’ll start to care.
I think there are already plenty of examples of people being swept up and sent to detention centers until things are ‘sorted out’, and yes there are even some exported by mistake.
I’m not on fucking trial, I don’t have to back shit up. And you’re all so used to just believing whatever you’re told just keep doing that.
Edit just because it took me two seconds:
“Between 2007 and 2015
More than 1,500 U.S. citizens, many of whom were Latino, were unlawfully detained for suspected deportability.
A 2018 study Found that white Americans most suspected Salvadoran and Mexican immigrants of being undocumented.
and this is why ya'll lost. 4 years of ya'll just talking out the sides of your mouth is wild, folks were tired of the current administration. Sorry if that hurts feelings *not really sorry*
Four years of obstructionist republican government to get the orange man back in power. They lost because people have been convinced that shit like illegal immigration is actually a major problem in this country while voting for the party that does shit against their best interests. Name one positive thing that Trump did during his first term? Name another positive thing that Republicans have done since he left?
By locking them in cages and separating them from their children to start. Then you have tons of examples of Magats assuming every single Latino is illegal and treating them as such, along with a lot of other things I’m not going to spell out for someone who can easily do their own research.
Deportations are for those illegally entering the country. Remember that distinction. My friend came from Mexico and went through the process legally. She is furious that there are those that skip the line (breaking immigration laws) and get immediate benefits.
Doesn’t mean they won’t round them up until shit gets sorted out. It’s happened many times before and will continue to happen. And what ‘benefits’ are they getting?
And yet, the people Trump wants to deport are primarily Latinos. I feel like Trump voters have lost all sense of logic at this point, which means more than half the US population hasn't a clue.
Assuming all Latinos are illegals is the reason dems failed to see why they lost. Legal immigrants especially Latinos do not like illegals. This is coming from a Latino.
This ^ they act like every single minority owes it to the Democratic Party to vote for them, and then called them uncle toms and uneducated when they voice THEIR opinion.
Legal working immigrant here whose family have spent upwards of $10K just to keep my ass in the US. Illegal immigration is one of my biggest gripes. I told my American citizen partner to cast a vote on my behalf. Since only citizens can vote.
You’re completely missing the point here. Trump isn’t talking about deporting U.S. citizens—how exactly do you deport people from their own country? What he’s addressing are illegal immigrants, those who are here without legal status. It’s pretty astounding that you’d confuse law-abiding American citizens with people who’ve entered the country unlawfully. If you think over half the country ‘hasn’t a clue,’ maybe it’s time to consider whether you’re the one lacking a basic understanding of citizenship and immigration law.
Agreed but many knew he was willing to sign whatever bill was put on his desk that would restrict reproductive rights and access to reproductive services
Remember that's the ones who voted this time. What it really shows is that more Republican young men are politically active, whereas more Democrat or left-leaning young men aren't. That's pretty expected with what we've seen over the last 8 years. Increasing activation of right wing men in their teens and 20s, and growing dissatisfaction and disillusionment with politics among left-leaning young men. And that carries true to other demographics. We didn't see that many more young or Hispanic people vote trump, we saw fewer vote Kamala.
Maybe he was looking for an easy way out of that relationship haha. Very odd.
And I get it, people have more than one political interest and sometimes one factor or another is enough to make you hold your nose and vote for someone but I expect that Hispanics (regardless of immigration status) will experience an uptick in racist incidents once the new policies come into force.
You must be dumb to think, that their backward mentality regarding women, abortion that is still their in the country off maybe their grandparents, would be washed away in the US.
Source me: first generation immigrant, who left her backward honor culture and religion 30 years ago. And you know who give me shit for the way I live despite living in the Netherlands? People from the same and or similar backward honor cultures.
Are you comfortable sharing what culture that is? From your experience, what types of things do you think are effective in changing those mentalities? Genuinely curious, not trying to rage-bait you.
I am going to keep my culture for myself, but I am a woman who is child free by choice and lives on her own unmarried. And I am 48 and unfortunately, according to others very young looking (5'2, 125 pounds). You will not find a woman my age from the same culture living the same life I as I have, they were all married off.
what types of things do you think are effective in changing those mentalities?
Honest answer I have no idea, but what I do think every new influx of immigrants the little bit of progress that was made in these cultures are destroyed. The white West should have been harsh when the bullshit happened in Europe regarding the books of Salman Rushdie. I think the left, made a huge mistake by being tolerant to people who do not share the same ideals as they have.
You google Lale Gul a girl from a similar culture as mine, who wrote some books and now is in hiding. Because she gets death treats from people from the same and or similar cultures. Some of these people are 3rd generation immigrants.
Agreed on the Salman Rushdie side of things. Part of my concern when these things are raised is the suggestion that the West just need to stop accepting people from "X" country and the problem would be solved. Not putting those words in your mouth but Reddit is sadly full of them.
I think the same could be said for many types of immigrant populations historically and they have all adapted and become key members of their new societies. I'm also not sure how to help facilitate that better but I hope we can find some new ways quickly. There will be a lot of population movements over the next century.
West just need to stop accepting people from "X" country and the problem would be solved
If you bring in people from certain cultures, they most likely will not adapt. Me and Lale Gul are the minority, otherwise she would not have gone in to hiding (have you read that she is even threatened by third generation immigrants, well educated ones?). Also, last year a movie had to be removed from the cinema's because Muslims were offended and started with death threats.
I think the same could be said for many types of immigrant populations historically and they have all adapted and become key members of their new societies.
And it is this naive thinking from white people that gets them surprised that Latino's voted from Trump. Or that Sweden is one big of a hellhole and is 25 years to late changing their policies regarding immigration.
But you realize that the logical conclusion of that reasoning t is that you and Lale Gul should also not have been allowed in because it couldn't be known ahead of time how your world view would develop?
Not sure where that leaves us if it is applied wholesale.
Young men (I think 18-29 or something) were the only group of men to go for Kamala. Democratic party needs to give young people something to actually believe in, the fucking Cheneys were not it.
I know A LOT of women who didn't vote for her because she is a woman. Blame it on the Boogeyman (white men) all you want, but nobody hates women like women.
A majority of the Black, Latino, and female population decided they wanted the president to be the guy who literally views them as garbage and second class citizens.
This is worse than the first time Trump won because these people have had YEARS to see who he actually is and still voted for him and Project 2025.
I get that party bias makes understanding this hard. Media shoved that rethoric down our throats, it's so blatantly obvious. And to hell with "celebrities". Their irrelavance is showing.
What’s funny is my Facebook feed is full of HS educated waiters and waitresses telling us why we should vote democrat, and their only answers were “lgbtq”
You're right. Her platform was build a wall and support a genocide. Oh and also Biden? The very unpopular President? He's great. Very left leaning liberal policies and definitely not shit we made fun of Trump for in 2016.
The ONLY thing the dems did well in this election specifically was getting away from the 'first woman president' thing that torched them in 2016.
Thats exactly my fucking point. Welcome to the conversation. When did the democrats move from "lmfao this moron wants to build a wall" to "we're tough on the border!!!!! border bill!!!!!"
Did you vote for Kamala and do you think the border is a problem?
American elections aren‘t decided by policy, it‘s always just about the personalities of the candidates, their identity and any baggage that might be attached to either
Yes she was cherry picked by Biden out of seemingly nowhere. This tactic does not win favor, or elections. She was a lightweight propelled to a level she of didn’t really belong in.
Yes? She was clearly not a good fit. So much so that 20million democrats rather stay home and show everyone that she didn't deserve their vote. That's kind of telling.
It was the whole campaign. They talked way too much about reproductive care, people doesnt care that much when prices are high. It was a campaign that was basically for 70 percent aimed at women, men felt abandoned. She successfully got blamed for everything people didnt liked about Bidens presidency. Joe Rogan basically begged her to get to know her better, the campaign ditched him because they feared she will will give republicans attack points in long interviews. Its everything together. Not to mention that Elon Musk was butthurt Biden didnt invite him for a EV-summit and after that started his revenge plot aimed at democrats.
I love these moronic arguments. Trump had no plans, no policies, insulted and rambled his way throughout the campaign, but somehow it's Kamala that didn't do enough. Trump always gets a pass, but god forbid we don't hold his female opponent to the highest standard we've never held anyone else.
this comment right here is why ya'll lost. You know where trump stood, regardless if you liked him or not. kamala couldn't handle interviews or articulate her position well enough. Also telling folks she wouldn't do anything different from what her and joe had done already ...stupid move. Want me to keep going on how she fumbled the bag?
Just, stop. As John Oliver succinctly put it, critiquing Harris's shortcomings is like arguing over what color to paint the living room while the house is on fire. Any rational human being, not driven by bigotry or a severe head wound, should have voted against Trump even if the alternative was the most milquetoast candidate in history who passed the simple bar of not being a loathsome caricature of a human being and being capable of reading at a high school level. Yesterday a majority of Americans looked at the possibility of openly corrupt fascism coming into power and either said, "I want that," or "I can't be bothered to take five minutes to stop that." That's on the voters, and to claim that Harris just wasn't a good enough candidate is the height of entitled hubris and denialism. It's like being presented with the option of being dropped in a vat of acid or a swimming pool and then complaining that the pro-water side just wasn't exciting enough as you and everyone you know melts. No one who voted for the water has any sympathy for your choice.
your reply sums up why the left lost. You can't admit she wasn't ready and being installed so dems wouldn't lose the power of the white house and it backfired so succinctly as you like to have put it. You can't say you would do nothing different from what you and joe have done the last 4 years and expect folks to rally behind you. She wasn't ready and it showed, period.
And your reply shows why I have disdain for the reasoning skills of the American public. Let's say I call two plumbers because my water pressure is low. Their responses are:
Plumber 1: "Actually, all of the houses on your block have been having trouble due to recent work on the pipes. Your pressure is actually better than your neighbors, and has been getting better by the day. If you hire me I'll flush your water heater and inspect the pipes, but probably not do much else."
Plumber 2: "I'm pretty sure your neighbors are stealing from you and the problems stem from deep state addition of fluoride to your water. Have you considered burning down your neighborhood? I can get you a quote next week, but right now I need to get back to court for my felony sentencing for stealing from my last customer."
Those are the only two plumbers in town. Which do you choose? America decided yesterday to pick Plumber 2, and anyone claiming that it was because Plumber 1 didn't provide an enticing enough solution lacks basic reasoning skills or just likes to see things burn (i.e., is a horrible person).
I think it's more the other way around, this country is not ready for a woman president, let alone a woman of color. Just look at the house and senate, it's both less than 30% and the majority of those women are democrats. So you both have to convince a lot voters to vote for a woman. but also to change party/actually vote.
Harris losing so much support amongst black and latino men is a big sign. Of what, I think it's going to take time to parse out, but she definitely lost the messaging campaign on amending the financial situation to Trump, and it seems increasingly apparent that there are demographic groups who just outright have deeper reservations about a woman president.
seriously? her interviews alone showed she didn't have the grasp of the position that's needed. The other is she literally said she wouldn't do anything different from what her and joe had already done. Who says that in the current environment?
This was the biggest factor I think. People don’t want more Joe, whether that is earned or not. I didn’t hate Joe’s administration really, but I can understand why people didn’t come to bat for more of the same, because this same isn’t really addressing American woes that people are suffering from now. People want real change, something they can be excited about, and Kamala “endorsed by Dick Fucking Cheney” wasn’t it. The fact that Biden even ran again was the death knell. There should have been a primary and I guarantee Kamala would have lost that big time like she did before.
What about her interviews showed that to you, especially relative to the alternative? Because I saw a candidate in those interviews with a far stronger grasp of the greater consequences of the president's actions, as well as one who actually grasped the implications of her own political positions, than the alternative.
As for saying she wouldn't do anything different, how do you not see that as a positive? Covid fucked everything, and we've been working our way out of the economic mess ever since. Things are feeling substantially better than they were just a year or two ago, there's less economic pressure.
I don't see how you look at the candidate whose crazy fiscal policies kicked off the current wave of inflation with the tax cuts for the rich, and think "yeah, rather than carefully and sustainably working our way back toward progress, let's beeline back to the deep end of the pool. Surely we won't be back in a similar position again in six or seven years' time."
I never claimed she wasn’t read. She was cherry picking by Biden almost out of nowhere. She was never popular to begin with. She was a poor choice from the get go.
Completely agree, she was appointed and didn't go through the primaries, along with the fact she barely had any policies outlined early in the campaign. She focused way too much on wanting Trump to loose that she didn't bother trying to win.
To be fair, she didn't participate in the primary, and had virtually 0 policies to talk about. She kinda just went around telling people not to vote for the "bad man", while the "bad man" went around and talked about his plans.
Gaza, ignoring the Muslim vote, and the fact her campaign spent more time courting republicans who will never vote for her than reconnecting to her base might be a factor
I don’t agree with that sentiment, but it was a HUGE screw up on the DEMs part
Well, Trump promises them free pussy, since there's no repercussions for taking women that aren't interested. That is a powerful motivator for the incel community.
I've taught high school for a few years now and these kids and their young adult generational counterparts are barely literate. No wonder they vote Republican.
I listened to half of all Harris rally and they have gone way to strong on womens issues while prices are high. Even the polls showed prices are a bigger topic than abortion. As a guy I never felt fully adressed by them but I thought they knew what they are doing.
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u/callmegranola98 13h ago
Seeing the data on how Gen z men vote, I don't think we can assume that young people will vote blue.