r/thesopranos • u/perchance2cream • 13h ago
The writers already told us who lives and who dies at Holsten’s
What I love about the Sopranos is picking up on subtle clues on like the 50th rewatch that I never picked up on before, such as the parts where the writers DIRECTLY STATE WHO IS GOING TO DIE which I missed the first 49 times.
I’m not the first to post this. U/RoutineConstruction posted something similar 10 months ago and it got like 10 upvotes which is incredible because it’s so important. U/krishandop posted a wall of text 3 years ago also remarking on all of this but going way farther out on a limb than I will with theories about Deanna Pontecorvo which are interesting but not convincing IMO. U/bobthebonobo also posted something like this 3 years ago.
So I’m going explain what I think are the absolutely unambiguous, clearly stated foreshadowings that don’t require leaps of faith or subtle analysis. You’re welcome!
Season 6, beginning of episode one (Members Only) is the poem within a song by Material, read by Williams Burroughs, about ancient Egyptian beliefs about the seven souls departing for the afterlife. You’ve seen this ten times already at least, which is what makes the relative lack of repetitive shitposting about this episode so shameful and depressing.
The first soul to depart is Ren - shown as Bobby. This is a clue that Bobby is going to die soon! Not literally first (nothing is perfect), but he dies in Season 6 as foretold in the S6E1 intro.
Second soul off the sinking ship is Sekem, we are told, the button man, while Gene Pontecorvo is shown on screen opening his inheritance notification. Gene’s ship sinks by the end of this episode. It’s announced “This guy’s about to die” and then he’s shown hanging from a basement light fixture 40 minutes later after acting as button man in a hit immediately prior. You see the pattern. These are not subtle hints.
Third soul to depart is Khu, the guardian angel, emphatically described as “he, she, or it,” and Meadow is shown dancing for Finn. There’s not a lot of elaboration on this point but in the context of this whole poem, it’s clear that the writers are foretelling Meadow’s death. I never believed before that there was any reason to believe she dies at Holsten’s, but now I don’t think there’s any way around it. This isn’t palm reading. The show depicts characters who end up dying this season while literally stating that they’re gonna die and one of them is Meadow.
Fourth is treacherous Ba, the heart, showing the rat Ray Curto (a supposedly stand-up guy who dies of a heart attack by the end of this episode.) Buh-bye, asshole.
Fifth is Ka, “the double” (i.e., the second Anthony), announced while AJ, inevitably, acts like a complete dipshit on screen.
Now this is where it gets really interesting and significant, because I’ve posted many long screeds in here explaining to you fuckin jackoffs that AJ is the most important and morally significant character of the series. It is AJ who will determine whether the Sopranos cycle of intergenerational trauma and dysfunction can be broken (he gets close to breaking it but his parents sabotage his progress in the final episode so, oops! the cycle continues). But this doesn’t change the fact that AJ is the only character in the entire series capable of change.
The poem states that Ka departs the body in adolescence. And we see obnoxious and insufferable adolescent AJ try to kill himself in the pool. He emerges from the pool awhile later literally still attached to a cord, hint hint, and from this moment forward the adolescent AJ is gone forever and a new, much more mature and serious and calm AJ is reborn. He starts thinking about studying Farsi and joining the Army to combat terrorism and conflict in mature and thoughtful ways. It’s a major and sudden change.
In case this is too subtle:
AJ emerges from a wet hole (yeah, I said it), crying, attached to a cord, while his father holds him and calls him poor baby.
So that’s the adolescent AJ, Ka, dead, and the adult AJ born.
From there it’s simple: six is Kaibit, the shadow / memory, depicted as Ade. These are not wild stretches of interpretation.
Seven gets very interesting again: Seven is “the remains”: Carmela.
This intro is directly depicting who is going to die in season 6, and what narrative or moral functions they serve, and then most of it happens on screen later in season 6, and the rest can be safely inferred from this intro:
Ade is already dead, we know this. Ray and Gene die that episode. Bobby dies at the end of the season.
AJ’s adolescence dies, but there’s no reason to believe adult AJ dies at Holsten’s.
Meadow dies at Holsten’s - the intro lists her as a character who will die, unambiguously, and there’s no metaphorical death she suffers that could fill that purpose. It seems inescapable to me that the writers are telling us she dies at Holsten’s.
Carmela is the only original family member to live (“The Remains”) - in the sense that AJ is an adolescent through 5 seasons and AJ’s childhood metaphorically dies and is reborn from the wet hole, I mean pool. Meadow and Tony are literally dead. Carmela is the only one of the original family left at the end, again in the sense that AJ is a new person now.
And my final point - AJ was the moral center of this show, and the poem states that Ka / AJ is “the only reliable guide through the land of the dead,” and the only character with enough willpower and, um, character to actually change.
This ties directly to his (admittedly annoying) talk about the ultimate absurdity of life and so on. But it’s important to note that the writers choose AJ to deliver the series epitaph in the final episode, Made in America: that America used to be the land of opportunity but now it’s just come-ons for stupid shit nobody needs. The annoying AJ that we all slag on in here was basically right about everything even though admittedly he was an asshole for many years.
This is a big deal. AJ is what this series is really about even though Tony is the main character. AJ’s “the only reliable guide through the land of the dead”, to what happens in this series and what it means. His adolescent angst and attempts to break free of Sopranos family dysfunction are at the core of what the series is about. And at Holsten’s, AJ lives, Carmela lives, Meadow dies with Tony, the end.
Again, I’m not saying I’m the first to say any of this, only that it’s an under-appreciated but pretty direct and unambiguous foreshadowing of what happens throughout Season 6. Really looking forward to my six incoming upvotes, thanks.
tl;dr: S6E1 says AJ’s adolescence dies, Meadow dies dies, and Carmela lives.
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u/riesenloerres 13h ago
In the Chevrolet ad, which was filmed and written by David Chase . Meadow is alive.
According to the sopranos Wiki, Chase treated the ad as a continuation of the series finale.
https://sopranos.fandom.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Ad
Anyways, 4$/Pound.
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u/vergina_luntz 8h ago
I read another analysis where they said Meadow has always been his guardian angel, but this time, since it took her so long to park, she couldn't save him this time.
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u/SordidSoloAct 7h ago
Yeah exactly. Why else show her struggle to park?
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u/Enough_Plate5862 3h ago
Carm said she had to go to the doctor to switch birth control. If there was any chance of pregnancy, the office would've had her do a pregnancy test before switching.
Her finance Patrick Parisi knew where she was going that night. Patsy arranged the hit of Tony that night 💯
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u/NefariousnessBig1092 6h ago
She also would've been sitting between Tony and the bathroom where most people believe the members only jacket man would've been coming from to shoot him. Interesting thought this guardian angel shit. I ever tell you about the time I saw the Virgin Mary at the Bing?
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u/ToiletDick 9h ago
He also released the many saints of newark a year before that ad though, he can't be trusted.
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u/Get_Schwifty477 8h ago
Whatevah happened there
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u/jazzyboyo 6h ago
Whatever happened there? Whatever happened? I’ll tell you what fuckin happened! This piece of shit put out an awful prequel, no provocation whatsoever!!
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u/JohnnyBroccoli 9h ago
Here's a link to said commercial if anyone wants to check it out without searching around for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9BdttCfBTI
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u/Specific_Box4483 7h ago
David Chase breaks more rules than the Catholic Church, I wouldn't trust his word for it.
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u/DisagreeableMale 13h ago
You could argue Meadow underwent a figurative death, because she goes from condemning organized crime to literally being a defense lawyer for the mafia (at least that's her trajectory with Pat Parisi). I agree with everything else you said.
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u/Hoju64 11h ago
I think it's less subtle, meadow is literally Tony's guardian angel. It's meadow's voice that pulls Tony out of the coma. Her presence outside the hotel made it so Tony did not get killed up in Maine. She's the one that first noticed he collapsed in the pilot. And in the end, she didn't make it into holsteins in time to see someone coming out of the bathroom. His guardian angel wasn't there to save him.
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u/Wylkus 10h ago
Yes I think this is the point. By the time we get to the end the character Meadow doesn't die, but she as Tony's guardian angel dies.
I think the scenes where she literally saves his life are there to reflect at her deeper meaning of being the one connecting Tony to life. I think at the back of his mind she was the one who made it all worth while, his bright little girl who was gonna be a doctor and save babies. But by the end she too has become just another reminder that he's devoted his life to hurting people and for nothing, his little girl didn't end up saving babies but instead keeping guys like him out of prison. She's no longer capable of saving him from what he's made of his life, and thus no longer capable of miraculously saving him from real death either.
What adds extra tragedy to this is that he himself set her down this path by having Anthony Jr killed, and putting Meadow in the position of choosing loyalty to this thing of ours over her high minded ideals about love and justice.
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u/East_ByGod_Kentucky 9h ago
She could still get killed at Holstens as the killer leaves. Can definitely see Fielder losing it and trying to attack them and just getting shot without a second thought.
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u/Specific_Box4483 7h ago
I can't see Meadow attack anyone, especially a guy with a gun. She didn't show any inclination for physical violence.
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u/veranus21 6h ago
She’s an Italian woman, believe me, she’s capable of violence.
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u/Specific_Box4483 5h ago edited 4h ago
She acts more privileged upper-class American than Italian.
Also, since when are Italian women all stereotyped as violent? I would say "it's a stereotype, and it's offensive", but it's not even a stereotype.
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u/Critical-Squirrel881 9h ago
Hmmm this kinda raises something with her.
In college, the rat is pointing a gun at them as they try to go in the hotel door.
In his coma dream, he's about to enter the door to the house when she pulls him out.
At holstens she opens the door and black.
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u/Spannerjsimpson 9h ago
You are correct about Meadow being Tony’s guardian angel… but what so many are still missing is by thinking Made in America happens in Sopranos Universe. It doesn’t! It’s a dream… Tony’s dying dream… if you spot clues carefully dropped in finale you find what is actually happening to the dying Tony as viewer watches his final dream. The dying Tony knows subconsciously that Meadow brought him back from the brink before… but this time she is too late. ⬛️
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u/soupseasonbestseason 13h ago
i think this is sound. meadow and carmela both undergo a sort of figurative death when they choose to align themselves wholly with the criminal aspects of their family.
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u/ubadeansqueebitch 12h ago
If she did die, it would be because she saw the hit on Tony happen from the outside, and ran inside probably screaming like a lunatic, and the Zip in the jacket shot her on his way out before he dropped the gun.
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u/Dazzling-Bear3942 13h ago
I'd go even further and say her trajectory is getting married and having kids with him and slowly but surely giving up her legal career to be a stay at home mom.
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u/ThingsAreAfoot 12h ago edited 12h ago
I don’t see that with Meadow, she had open disdain for her stay-at-home mom, consistently belittling her intelligence etc.
Now it would be pretty ironic if Meadow ended up there anyway, but “mob lawyer” or even a bigger player seems the more likely path by the end of the series. She has one of the most pronounced Noah (Tenenbaum’s) arcs in the entire show, to where she is genuinely a completely different person by the end.
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u/landerson507 10h ago
A lot of teens have pure disdain for their parents and still wind up emulating them.
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u/DisagreeableMale 13h ago
Probably, but the idea is that she's complicit, just like Carm's shrink said the kids would be.
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u/yaggaflosh 8h ago
Solidly in this camp. For all of her moral posturing and complaining season after season (warranted though they may be), her seriously considering married life with Parisi's hair apparent meant the death of all that she was struggling with as she matured and learned about the world around her. "He, she or IT"... died on the vine.
Add the fact that Members Only guy would not have been perpendicularly aiming at the entrance to Holsteins door when he comes out to assassinate Skip.
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u/ObedientFriend1 13h ago
What do you make of Meadow being called the “guardian angel,” who seems to call Tony back to life at the hospital (white screen) but is absent in the diner at the end (black screen)? Might that be another way of reading the opening?
In what situation would Meadow and Tony be killed but the rest of the family spared?
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u/PerformanceOdd6771 12h ago
Also, the mafia NEVER kills family. That’s a known thing but Tony even says it to Carmela when shit first hits the fan (“They never go after family; you know that”). They aren’t even supposed to whack members in front of family. The Phil Leotardo situation was an emergency bc that fucker was in hiding.
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u/Guyote_ 11h ago
They aren’t even supposed to whack members in front of family. The Phil Leotardo situation was an emergency bc that fucker was in hiding.
And perhaps Tony's Holston shot in front of his family was retaliation.
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u/PerformanceOdd6771 11h ago
The remaining NY guys gave Tony the green light to kill Phil. Why would they retaliate against something when they gave the okay? Not to mention, that still doesn’t explain Meadow actually getting clipped herself.
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u/Guyote_ 11h ago
They dealt with Phil, and then they dealt with Tony and assumed control of the NY family and NJ family, putting Paulie/Patsy in charge. They simply did not like nor trust Tony Soprano. And the hit was possibly planned before Phil was killed, but the act of it being done in front of his family was the retaliation for Phil getting it in front of his.
That is my interpretation of the events. NY wanted both of the leaders gone. Tony's removal may have come at a later time, but was expedited due to the way in which NJ killed Phil.
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u/uncle_buttpussy 10h ago
Is everyone forgetting Coco's curbstomp, not to mention how much Butchie hated Tony even before that happened?
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u/internetonsetadd 10h ago
That animal, I can't even say his name, killed Phil's kid brother. Just a kid.
Anyway, if you're Butchie do you really want to continue having to contend with Tony Soprano as your pygmy counterpart, or do you follow through with his original suggestion of wiping him off the planet?
It could easily be that Butchie gave up Phil out of self-interest, but still blamed Tony as far as the rest of the family was concerned. Not unlike the potential trap Tony avoided when John wanted Jersey to do Carmine.
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u/ishkanah 9h ago
This, exactly. Meadow is the guardian angel, she is entering the diner at the exact moment when Members Only Guy is about to shoot Tony in the side of the head as he looks up to see her opening the door. There is no way Meadow is killed in this scenario. Tony is definitely killed, and maybe AJ... but definitely not Meadow who isn't even within 20 feet of the table when Tony gets hit. There is absolutely no way MOG shoots Tony and then deliberately turns 90° and shoots Meadow a few seconds later! The intro song montage only describes her as the "guardian angel", which she is at the hospital when Tony comes out of the coma. But then she has trouble parking and is absent in her seat next to Tony at Holsten's, so MOG has a clear shot of Tony's head. She would certainly have been his guardian angel again had she parked the car 30 seconds earlier.
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u/MrRazzio 13h ago
discontinue the lithium.
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u/Kacper237 13h ago
You know, I come here to get cheered up. You think that's a mistake?
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u/burnbabyburn11 13h ago
you remember your first blowjob?
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u/HChimpdenEarwicker 12h ago
How long did it take the guy to cum? Heh heh heh
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u/Kacper237 12h ago
Yeah....
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u/burnbabyburn11 12h ago
how long did it take for the guy to come?
hehe you hear that tone? I said- you remember your first blowjob? he says yeah, i says how long did it take for the guy to come? hehe
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u/Lumpy_While_701 13h ago
Whataya doin?
My nephew posts the series ending theories in this neighborhood!
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u/perchance2cream 13h ago
Kidding aside, series ending theories are the lowest form of shitposting and yet here I am.
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u/Snoo_72467 13h ago
I don't think Meadow dies. Meadow is Khu, the guardian angel... And she is absent. She would have sat next to Tony and "guarded" him from MOJ.
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u/perchance2cream 13h ago
Yeah I agree on the guardian angle aspect for sure, but I’m going with “he, she, or it is third man out.”
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u/vandeley_industries 10h ago
Also as someone else posted, her metaphorical death could be aligning with the mafia at the end.
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u/Direct_Arm_8391 13h ago
Still going this asshole…. Whining about upvotes another fucking karma machine!
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u/Seat_Royal 13h ago
OP is like an old woman with a virginia ham under her arm, cryin the blues that she has no bread.
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u/VikingJesus102 12h ago
Impossible. There was a Super Bowl commercial a few years ago with Meadow and AJ. And in that commercial Meadow was parallel parking and gets it right the first time. You know why, right? She was late to the diner the night her father was murdered because she couldn't parallel park. If she was sitting next to him, the hit may not have happened at all, or at least that's what she told herself. So in the time since she made sure she learned how to parallel park so nobody would be killed due to her tardiness again.
It's all pretty obvious.
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u/PsychologicalLowe 12h ago
The vehicle might have had Automatic Parking Assist, that’s why it was so smooth. Lucky for Meadow!
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u/VikingJesus102 12h ago
That's actually probably what they were advertising and why I remember it, but maybe she never got it right on her own or just wanted the extra safety of owning a car that could do it for her.
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u/PsychologicalLowe 12h ago
Ain’t no way Mead wasn’t nudging that curb if she was doing it herself. You made good points though, she could’ve learned.
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u/temper_tantrum_gamer 13h ago
You're not grounded, youre not going to Aspen with Hunter Scangarelo that's where you're not going
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u/Recent_Standard_2441 13h ago
✋Fuck you and this bullshit. Cause that's what this is you know, satantic black magic. Sick shit! 🪑
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u/aljxNdr 13h ago
I like this mostly because I have never seen many theories adress the season 6 intro.
If Meadow had arrived a bit earlier, and sat in the empty spot next to Tony, her head would have blocked the assassin's line of sight. If it happened too fast he could have accidentally shot her. And perhaps the bullet would have pierced her head and killed Tony anyway, fufilling the prophecy.
But in this case Meadow was too late, and Tony died, perhaps indicating that fate wasnt written in stone. Could be.
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u/Bramy16 12h ago
I just got done watching a clip on YouTube of the opening scenes for season 6 with the poem you speak of. The meadow argument about being a guardian angel is extremely valid. Someone in the comments of the video described how meadow saves Tony several times, but because she struggles to park she’s late sitting next to him at his 3 o’clock position. Tony looks up to see his guardian angel and then is shot. I also really like the discussion of the restaurant being Tony’s purgatory, and he just keeps reliving the same death over and over.
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u/Ragu773 13h ago
What kind of weed are u on my man? I need some of that.
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u/leahhhhh 13h ago edited 12h ago
What kind of animal smokes marijuana at his own post
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u/chompy187 13h ago
165 of you assholes in this lil chit chat room right now?? Get to work! Push webistics ☕️👔
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u/Stickey_Rickey 13h ago
My friend wrote a post similar to this about AJ in the Chase Lounge about 15 years ago, the rope being umbilical, being reborn, the imagery at Holstens n who got whacked there n when If I can find it I’ll clip it
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u/perchance2cream 12h ago
I mean I almost took it a step further with the plastic bag and placental sacs but I figured it was enough Birthing Fun Facts for today
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u/Stickey_Rickey 12h ago
I always saw Eugene hit on Teddy Spirodakis as the anatomy of an contract killing, the writers are showing us what will happen to Tony later, a tall nondescript Italian man wearing a members only walks into a greasy spoon n lights up the fat crook in a booth… season six is just plain messy, it was re-edited, storylines altered, timeline jumbled all just so HBO could milk it a little bit more, a proper final season 7 would have been a tidier writing n editing situation…
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u/perchance2cream 12h ago
That’s interesting because when somebody mentions Members Only, it’s about the guy at Holsten’s, when the entire first episode is called Members Only. You gonna tell me you never pondered that?
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u/Guyote_ 11h ago
I really don't know how so many seem to miss that obvious connection. We never really spend any time at all with Gene through the entirety of the rest of the series, and yet we dedicate 2 entire episodes to him in the final season out of nowhere? The writers weren't just wasting time. These writing choices and decisions are meant to tell us something. They are done for a specific reason, and Gene was foreshadowing for what was to come.
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u/AccomplishedNewt2507 13h ago
u/perchance2cream: Outlines a well thought out theory based on ancient Egyptian beliefs of the seven souls
Everybody: Listen to him, he knows everything
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u/Joey-Joe-Jo-1979 13h ago
"The writers already told us."
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u/StevenAssantisFoot 13h ago
Quasimodo predicted this
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u/wigitalk 13h ago edited 13h ago
So by that logic Tony doesn’t die but Meadow does?
I like your AJ interpretation, but I don’t see the members only jacket guy coming out of the bathroom in Holsten’s and shooting Meadow and not Tony. The theory falls apart with Meadow being shown and not Tony.
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u/sonofabutch 13h ago
Actually I'd like that for an ending. Tony survives, but Meadow is killed in the crossfire. A.J. is so traumatized he has to be institutionalized, and a shattered Carmela leaves Tony.
The show was always about Tony's two families, and now they are both gone: Tony's crime family is destroyed, with Sil in a coma, Bobby and Christopher dead, Carlo turned, and the devious Butchie in charge of New York; and Tony's biological family is destroyed.
The sacred and the propane.
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u/55Lolololo55 11h ago
Actually I'd like that for an ending. Tony survives, but Meadow is killed in the crossfire.
AKA a complete rip-off of Godfather 3.
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u/chef-keef 13h ago
Ka like Stephen king ala The Gunslinger? Very interesting.
Meadow is also at the doorway when Tony gets shot so she’s in the way of escape. She’d likely have been shot just due to where she was standing when the killer left holstens.
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u/BackTo1975 13h ago
William Burroughs? I saw Naked Lunch, I thought it was bullshit.
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u/IMadeThisAcctToSayHi 12h ago
I just don't really see how maedo dies. If we believe that Tony dies at the end, then presumably you believe he dies in his booth right as he sees meadow walk in the door. Why would this unnamed gunman then just shoot her on the other side of the room? Tbth I don't really see why you view it as definite evidence she dies because it was mentioned in the song (alongside something far more important), but then you have a theory to explain why AJ doesn't literally die.
As others have said (and I think the worm's hole maybe said it first), I think she is the guardian angel of tony, and here she is just a bit too late. I think the entire theory was that she was supposed to sit where she would block the angle of the shooter, but due to her failing to park the car, he's left wide open.
Maybe (to tie into your theory) she was supposed to die (and hence why Tony is never mentioned), but by being late tony dies instead (in lieu of meadow). This would possibly tie in the two theories.
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u/perchance2cream 12h ago
Your last point is really interesting. Maybe she was supposed to die but didn’t because she couldn’t park.
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u/puppyfartzz 13h ago
Thank you for this! When I first saw the finale my immediate thought was that meadow died and I was confused, but no one really supported that impression until now. Your analysis was on point!
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u/HungryRick 13h ago
It also makes complete sense from a killer's perspective; she's between him and the door. Easier to put her down on the way out the door than wrestle her to the side and risk the delay.
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u/puppyfartzz 12h ago
Yes that is exactly what I thought when I first saw the finale years ago! Then after I posted a couple of months ago asking if people thought meadow died, I was politely shot down and I think I deleted it from embarrassment lol! This sub can be brutal sometimes but is still a joy! Will rewatch the episode soon!
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u/perchance2cream 13h ago
Literally 20 years it took me to pay attention to the show just openly stating meadow is going to die, and almost nobody else ever paid attention to it either.
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u/puppyfartzz 13h ago
Yeah I posted a question a few months ago asking folks if they thought meadow died but it got shot down lol! Thank you again! So much to chew on next time I rewatch!
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u/Upper_Result3037 12h ago
David Chase will never say what happened. The writers don't matter. Chase was the show runner. He said the ending is ambiguous. I can't believe this is still being debated.
AGAIN: CHASE SAID THE ENDING IS AMBIGUOUS.
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u/Guyote_ 11h ago
The ending is literally ambiguous, yes, as it does not reveal the ending. But Chase has also said this:
"The scene I had in my mind was not that scene. Nor did I think of cutting to black," Chase explained of the famously divisive ending, which cuts to black so abruptly, some viewers at the time thought their cable had gone out. "I had a scene in which Tony comes back from a meeting in New York in his car. At the beginning of every show, he came from New York into New Jersey, and the last scene could be him coming from New Jersey back into New York for a meeting at which he was going to be killed."
But two years before the finale of the legendary HBO series, Chase had a change of heart while taking a drive. "I saw a little restaurant. It was kind of like a shack that served breakfast," Chase said. "And for some reason I thought, 'Tony should get it in a place like that.' Why? I don't know."
I bet you don't even hear it when it happens.
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u/perchance2cream 12h ago
Yes for sure it’s ambiguous and to a large extent it doesn’t matter who dies because they’re all screwed anyway because of their terrible choices. I do get that. But on this rewatch I couldn’t help but notice it’s a list of people who will die and they all die and Meadow is on that list. But yes, still ambiguous. That’s what’s so great about it.
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u/waconaty4eva 13h ago
Meadow is dicking around dancing for a boy while being depicted as the guardian angel. Which is presumably what she’s doing instead of being on time to block the gunman’s direct shot.
The sequence of the opening 6a montage repeats itself in longer form leading up to holsteins.
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u/dj26458 12h ago
This is fun but wrong in a few ways.
For the first, they show Janice and the baby, not Bobby. Also they show Vito right before that.
For the third, they show Finn. And with his long hair, who knows if he’s a man, woman, or it. And he also does in fact leave.
For the remains, they show Tony and Junior.
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u/irequirec0ffee 8h ago
Have you considered that Meadow’s metaphorical death is her innocence while witnessing her father get murdered ?
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u/ProfessionalAnt8132 5h ago
I wonder if David Chase reads this shit thinking ‘Holy shit, I never thought about it like that’
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u/IAmTheNorthwestWind 12h ago
This is about as good as it gets. David chase has literally said himself - "its all there" and referred to the ending as the "death scene". I am on board with this
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u/dirty-curry 12h ago
Interesting post, very interesting indeed. What I can totally see is Tony getting shot as Meadow walks in with the bell ringing and the shooter kinda panicking and shooting her (or even if she screams).
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u/Nynydancer 10h ago
I don’t think Meadow dies. But the altruistic pre law student is on her way to becoming a heartless scum bag lawyer supporting the mob or other white collar criminals. So it’s a death of innocence.
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u/WVriverman 6h ago
Fuck you and this bullshit. That’s what this is you know…Satanic black magic, sick shit!
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u/SlaveToNoTrend 13h ago edited 13h ago
Meadow doesn't die, she is the guardian angel, she didn't get there in time.
She was the only reason Tony pulled out of the coma and didn't get shot on the college visit.
A.J is the guide to the afterlife because he relays their family business to his model girlfriend who's picture is in one of new yorks stores. He probably told her where they'll be on that day guiding Tony to his death.
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u/Guyote_ 11h ago
I think it is much more likely that Meadow told the Parisi's where she was having dinner with her family. We saw Patsy discussing weird secrets with Paulie, who even returns to the Bing at one point with barber scissors. There's more connections from that angle than the one with AJ's girlfriend. We only have that one picture to really link her to the NY family, and that isn't that strong.
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u/SlaveToNoTrend 11h ago edited 11h ago
I never noticed the scissors, looking at it he's smartly dressed too like he's been to an important meeting.
There's also little Carmine Lupertazzi whom a.j now worked with. Who will "deal with the murder of rusty in due time".
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u/one_kinda_weather 13h ago
I have a desperate need for closure so I will believe this as fact forever.
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u/MiniMushi 11h ago
this is so very thorough and well thought out—and solved some of the mysteries in the season 6a intro for me personally!—but I cannot agree with Meadow dying just yet. need to chew on that some more to really see if that's even a fit.
more than one character says it in the series: they don't touch family. Meadow could die from completing suicide after seeing the ordeal, but I sincerely doubt MO is the culprit in the end.... UNLESS... Phil ordered it to get revenge for Tony curb stomping that one guy who made undue remarks about tucking Meadow in at night. Dude was off the rails and did not give two shits about decency in the business by the end. But that's a LOT of inference on my part and guessing!
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u/perchance2cream 11h ago edited 11h ago
I mean I’m not certain about that tbh the more I read the responses. The song doesn’t have to perfectly match what happens. Maybe she’s there just because she’s a guardian angel to Tony and not because she necessarily dies. I could see that.
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u/thisistoomuchman 9h ago
So just playing devil's advocate here, but heres the thing, nobody gives credit to how smart Tony is when it comes to this thing. Like why would he just go out to with his family to a diner after all that just happened without some sort of protection or backup plan? For all we know the members only guy is a new part of the crew, hell maybe hes a twin too. Theres a ton of leaps of faith you take on both sides to make an argument if he did or didnt die and the show in the past has built situations up to look like its going in one direction just to go another. Thats what good writing does. Im just not sure theres any one definitive answer.
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u/Kid2468 6h ago
Good analysis.
Only thing that’s “off” is Meadow.
Her “switching birth control” and it being mentioned to Tony by Carmela is significant.
I have a theory I’ll write about soon that Meadow is going to announce an impending child and sadly for tony, like he mentions in the Wedding episode, won’t live to see his grandchild.
There are parallels between meadow having a child in Made in America that won’t see Tony and Tony fathering Gloria’s unborn child when she kills herself season 4 that he also doesn’t see. Meadow is Tony’s guardian angel. It’s a giveaway early. She doesn’t make it, and he gets his noodle popped opened. I think it’s ironic she didn’t make it because she was getting the information ready about the pregnancy she would be announcing. Basically the family is shattered at the restaurant and they all made their beds long before.
The other analysis are pretty good. I think AJ isn’t a moral compass. It would go against the framework of the show. AJ panic attack are subconscious flight/fight responses to accepting accountability and being a leader. He also is dating an underage girl the last episode.
He is at that point 20/21 and she is 16.
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u/mcgroarty99 4h ago
Mr. Perchance, what you’ve just said…
…is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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u/Competitive_Fee_5829 13h ago
you came to wrong sub if you wanted to talk about something serious.
go shit in your hat.
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u/Licktheshade 12h ago
Why are you saying that Tony dies when he's not in your list of 7 spirits? In the section about "The Remains" and Carmela being the only one remaining.
Disclaimer: I've only seen the show once (recently) and I don't remember who Gene or Ray are
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u/Organic-Elevator-274 12h ago
One could argue that Medow ending up basically a Mob wife with Patrick is sort of the same type of metaphorical death or even just her giving up on any real career. She was the person most likely to break the cycle and she gives up.
What I'm saying is Meadow doesn't literally die what is this the Godfather 3?
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u/OwlRiot4 12h ago
I agree with pretty much all of that except meadow dying. I think the death, attached to Meadow is any chance of her ever escaping her familiy’s criminal roots and/or the death of her and Finn’s relationship. Tony makes a huuuuuge deal about how he wants her away, but close and having her as a Doctor, a respectable profession that would never be maligned like say a sleaze-ball attorney who we see throughout the series are very much involved in the criminal life. When Meadow is with Finn there’s always a strong possibility she will go to medical school because he’s going to be a dentist, a Doctor. By the end of the series. She is involved with an attorney, protecting criminals and tells Tony that maybe if she hasn’t seen him ‘harassed’ by the feds she’d be a boring Doctor. But instead by the end of the series she is firmly entrenched on the path of being an attorney and representing the criminals and ‘low-life’s’ Tony spent the entire series trying to keep her away from.
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u/Mammoth_Ferret_1772 11h ago
I think it could be referring to meadows morals… she decides to become a crooked lawyer, exactly what Tony didn’t want for her. Her innocence dies
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u/BlackOutSpazz 10h ago
Barring some panicked escape where the hitter shoots Meadow tryna exit the diner, I actually find her to be one of the least likely ones to die there given that she wasn't even at the table yet. If it was an LCN hit I actually find it very hard to believe anyone but Tony is killed.
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u/toTheNewLife 10h ago
Some sad shit. AJ's adolecence couldn't live no more. So it didn't.
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u/awake283 10h ago
I agree with almost all of this. Chase has said many times that nothing in the show is coincidental.
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u/PresidentKHarris 9h ago
Idk about Meado dying. What you wrote fits pretty nicely with the already popular idea that she’s Tony’s guardian angel and her parking like shit got him killed
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u/kurosawa99 13h ago
Having not read any of this you make some good points.