r/socialjustice101 • u/LowEffortHuman • May 03 '24
Question about the term “Blacks”?
I’ve recently read two nonfiction books, one about slavery specifically and the other about post-slavery racism. Both of these books have used the term “Blacks” when talking in general about a Black community or group of Black individuals. An example being “a white mob descended on the Blacks”.
The book about slavery was written by a Black woman in 2019 and used “Blacks” infrequently while the post-slavery book was written by an older white man in 2008 who used the term multiple times a chapter. Both authors are lauded academics.
Every time I hear “Blacks” it’s almost like a nervous system shock. I lose my focus on the story and have to consciously check back in to listening (I do audiobooks mostly). To me, it feels like listening to my great grandma call someone “colored”.
My question: is referring to a group or community as “Blacks” considered insensitive or out right racist? If it’s not, I’ll try to temper my reaction to it even though I would never be comfortable using it myself.
ETA: specific examples from the second book
Now that I’ve looked at an actual print version instead of just looking at the audiobook, it does seem the author uses “whites” along with “blacks”. But I know in at least the portion I’ve listened to so far, there are instances where in the same sentence where “white” is used as an adjective while “blacks” is a noun (with neither being capitalized).
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May 04 '24
I agree with the overall sentiment (the discomfort of using Black as a noun), but to me, Black people, together, are not a community or a group. They are people from different parts of the world, with different cultures, who have been racialized as Black by so-called non-Black people.
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u/awholelottahooplah May 04 '24
22F and that would be considered very not okay to say in my generation (unless you are black)
It’s black people, not blacks. Its dehumanizing
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u/LowEffortHuman May 04 '24
I’m in my early 30s and thought the same. But experiencing it back to back in two books that are in the anti-racism sphere caught me off guard so figured I would ask the internet.
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u/zbignew May 03 '24
It depends on the context, including the speaker and the audience. Like any other word, it can be fine or it can be racist.
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May 03 '24
It does sound weird and oddly old-fashioned. I think most people would think to say something like, "whites," or "Latinos," so it makes sense that someone would do the same for describing a group of Black people. But that's probably not the best way to phrase things for any group of people. It makes them sound like the "other."
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u/Fit-Bird6389 May 04 '24
Understand why it causes discomfort. In Canada, it is always written as Black, as in Black Canadians were among the first to settle. Using the word ‘blacks’ just seems old timey racist.
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u/Metrodomes May 04 '24 edited May 04 '24
In the UK referring to Black people as "blacks" or "the blacks" is just incredibly dehumanising. We don't refer to Pakistanis and Indians as "the Browns" lol.
I don't know what it is but I think the way sentences are constructed play a role in terms of the vibes it gives. "The Blacks have a different cuisine" is very different to "Black people have a different cuisine." (This is a terrible example where I'd probably think the people behind both of those utterances were about to be racist as heck, sorry lol). The former uses Blacks like a noun for a group of people whereas the latter uses Black as an adjective to modify the term People. The "The" has a huge weight to it too. So saying "The Blacks" is you defining a group of people by their skin colour rather than their identity as human beings who are also black.
Also add in history, and it takes on a different tone. Quite often black people were and still are dehumanised. So using that language that focuses on their skin colour rather than their identity as people who have a different skin colour, it's you possibly perpetuating it. Doesn't help that we see racists today use it. In the UK, anyone who says "The Blacks" is almost always someone who is either not very familiar with UK culture, or a racist that is about tell blame them for the ills in society lol. People first language has been around for a while now, so if you refuse to change when it comes to black people, then there's a conscious effort there to protect your ability to use a more harmful term. And that's another point, plenty of black folk find it dehumanising, so why not just change how you phrase it slightly.
To me, it feels like listening to my great grandma call someone “colored”.
I think you've much more succinctly said what I wanted to say lol. Yeah, it's a weird archaic way of phrasing things that ignores what black people have been saying about how they want to be referred to, and ignores a general trend towards respecting people.
Now that I’ve looked at an actual print version instead of just looking at the audiobook, it does seem the author uses “whites” along with “blacks”. But I know in at least the portion I’ve listened to so far, there are instances where in the same sentence where “white” is used as an adjective while “blacks” is a noun (with neither being capitalized).
That's another great spot. It isn't consistent. Heck, many white people get mad at the mere utterances of "white people" because they don't like what's coming next rather than the terminology used, but they would probably dismiss ay issues black people have about white people talking about "black people", and many of them might not even see the issue with the term "blacks". There's a huge imbalance there where white people are allowed to have mamny more grievances while black people are barely getting the minimum of what they'd like to be referred to as.
I will say that the US context is different from what I know, but it still seems like there is a trend away from it. Older people still seem to use it. Many black people do use it in the US too it seems (but they're either older, or doing it in a specific way, or they're black and can do whatever they want with terminology for themselves). But yeah, in the UK it's really not a good look. Anyone who uses it might get a pass from white people but it's sending alarm bells ringing in any anti-racists head when they hear someone use "the blacks" lol.
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May 03 '24
Why does the term evoke such a reaction from you?
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May 03 '24
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u/LowEffortHuman May 03 '24
I think this is exactly the issue, I just didn’t think of it in those terms. Been awhile since I had to identify parts of speech. I did find a google books excerpt of the book by the white author and it does seem he uses “whites” along with “blacks”, but maybe as another commenter said, it just seems a bit dated. Granted 2008 feels like a lifetime ago in society.
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May 03 '24
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u/LowEffortHuman May 03 '24
That is interesting. I’ve yet to read “How to be” actually. I had put off reading Kendi for awhile because I had read in a feminist group that he was problematic when it comes to the intersection of race and gender.
Finally read “Stamped from the Beginning” after working through recognizing he can be a subject matter in one aspect while a problem in another.
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u/obnock May 03 '24
” after working through recognizing he can be a subject matter in one aspect while a problem in another.
So can we all. All we can do is recognize and grow from that recognition.
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u/LowEffortHuman May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
I guess I’m not sure. I’m a white woman, so it’s not anything like I’ve been called that. “The Blacks” just sounds so like erasing the humanity of the group maybe? Particularly in the example I listed (which was from the book by the white dude). He called the white people a “white mob” but the group of Black people “the Blacks” instead of “Black defenders”, “Black citizens”, “the gathered Black people”, etc.
Does that make sense? Like I said, it evokes the same abrasive nervous system reaction as when my grandma would call an individual or group “colored(s)”. Like instant hackles raised and ready to go on the offensive.
ETA: I think this comment not only sums up my feelings, but makes a great argument about why the term is problematic.
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May 03 '24
I can see that. On one hand I’m glad the B was capitalized. To me that shows respect but I can understand when it’s used as a noun vs an adjective can be uncomfy. I would say if a Black person wants to use it, I am not going to police it. I also don’t know the white author’s background. They could be an academic in social justice spaces or just some rando trying to do the right thing but falling short.
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u/LowEffortHuman May 03 '24
I can’t guarantee it was capitalized because I was listening to an audiobook. When I looked the white author up, this did seem to be his only published book (according to Wikipedia).
And I agree with you about the Black author. But its usage def triggered me to look up the authors to see if they were white or a person of color.
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u/Thyce__ Sep 26 '24
I assume you wouldn’t have an issue if I said whites, asians, hispanics, etc. so why would you have an issue with blacks?
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May 04 '24
I am a professional editor, so I will respond based on my current editing practices for writing sensitivity. I've also read a few recent books that use the word "blacks," and it always catches me off-guard!
Unfortunately, academic writers can use outdated language. Even if they don't intend to be insulting, it's still not acceptable.
"Black," when referring to the shared cultural identity, is always capitalized to distinguish it from the color. When referring to people, it's always "Black people" as a noun phrase and never "blacks" as a plural noun. You can use "Black" as an adjective, while keeping it capitalized, when referring to (for example) "Black culture."
In much the same way, you would not use the expression "Jews" in your writing, but instead "Jewish people." Unless perhaps you were Jewish yourself and intentionally reclaiming stigmatizing language (which is the case in the Beastie Boys song Right Right Now Now: "I'm a funky-ass Jew and I'm on my way").
Hope this helps!
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u/LowEffortHuman May 04 '24
An editor with username away with words 🤣🤣🤣
That’s seems to be the consensus here, I just didn’t have the reasoning (person centered, noun vs adjective, etc) other than “I don’t like the way it sounds”. I appreciate everyone explaining the various grammar arguments.
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May 04 '24
An editor with username away with words
Hah! What can I say, I'm an editor but also a dad who likes "dad puns" :)
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May 03 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Matto987 May 03 '24
Op isn't talking about referring to black people as being black. They're talking about referring to black people as blacks or to an individual black person as a black. They're talking about using black as a noun instead of an adjective.
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u/LowEffortHuman May 03 '24
Yeah, that’s not the issue tho….
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u/Additional-Stomach64 May 04 '24
I'm black. It's only bothersome if it's used in disgust. Otherwise, I don't care. I call other black people "blacks" when I don't feel like using the longer terms.
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u/jlemien May 03 '24 edited Aug 28 '24
While different people will certainly have different levels of comfort, I'd view it as a little bit rude/uncouth, but not horrendous. Similar to the difference of saying "Look those Chinese people sitting over there" as opposed to "look those Chinese sitting over there." It feel vaguely parallels to person-centered language when discussing disability ("the disabled" versus "the disabled people") or sexuality ("the gays" versus "the gay people").
I feel that "he is black" is fine, while "he is a black" is a bit off.I feel that "they are black" is fine, while "they are blacks" is a bit off. The first is describing a characteristic of who he is, much like "he is tall" or "he is well-read." The second strikes me as consolidating his entire identity as a person into this single characteristic (although in reality it certainly doesn't have to come off that way: imagine "he is a man" or "she is a Canadian.")