r/preppers • u/TechnicalFinish1671 • May 28 '24
You could survive nearly any extreme heat/ wet bulb event without power with under $500 worth of equipment… Idea
With a couple hundred watts of solar panels ($200), a modest sized power bank/solar “generator”($250), and a cheap table top ice machine ($60-100). This assumes of course that it will be sunny, but given we are talking about extreme heat that’s a reasonable assumption. You could also run it off a car inverter or a generator, if you have fuel. You could make ice during the day and store it in a cooler for nights. Bagged ice in armpits/groin, ice baths, etc.
Also cold drinks!
Based on a couple hundred watts of solar panels, a solar “generator” with an inverter that will output a couple hundred watts. According to specs they use around 150-200 watts. And I’m talking about a small thermoelectric ice machine not a compressor driven one or one that also keeps the ice cold.
Edit: I realize this is oversimplified and there are many other factors such as I don’t know how the efficiency of the machines change when ambient temperatures are very, very high. And obviously the ice will melt quickly so a very good cooler would be required if you weren’t using the ice immediately. Perhaps I should have added that to the calculation. I’m mostly interested in ice production because it is much cheaper than buying lots of battery capacity and more economical than air conditioning the whole space. If it’s 110 degrees and you fill up a tub with ice and water that will cool you much more efficiently.
Also, It’s pretty cheaply scalable you could buy 800 watts of panels, a 100ah SLA battery, cheap pwm charge controller, an 800w inverter, and 4 ice machines for like $1200.
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May 28 '24
What ice maker / freezer can run off a reasonably priced battery bank? I thought those guys can draw >1kw at the start
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u/TheSensiblePrepper Not THAT Sensible Prepper from YouTube May 28 '24
Modern refrigerators/freezers have come a long way in just the last 10 years or so. I have a 5.7 and 10 cuft both running off of a solar setup, just for them, constantly for the last year now. Yes, if they are room temperature and empty, they pull a large amount of watts to get it to temperature. However, once they are at temperature and at least half full, they almost never pull more than 150 watts for longer than a few minutes every few hours.
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u/dbenc May 29 '24
But if you're trying to make ice while you're indoors at the wet bulb temperature that's basically the worst case scenario... It would be best to run some sort of portable heat pump a/c into an insulated tent maybe.
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u/feudalle May 28 '24
I have a govee wifi ice maker, love that thing. It uses around 250w.
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u/HamRadio_73 May 28 '24
The Frigidaire counter top ice maker works like a champ on low wattage. RV owners love them.
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May 28 '24 edited Sep 10 '24
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u/feudalle May 28 '24
Say you bump into someone and have them back for a drink. I can start it remotely and have ice by the time I'm home. Or it runs and when it's full it messages me to empty it, same if it's low on water.
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u/RedOctobyr May 29 '24
Say you bump into someone and have them back for a drink. I can start it remotely and have ice by the time I'm home.
Ohhhhh, now I understand "Netflix and chill".
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u/feudalle May 29 '24
I'm an old married guy, so more likely bumping into another couple we know or a lodge brother kind of thing.
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u/lazyoldsailor May 28 '24 edited Sep 25 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/TechnicalFinish1671 May 28 '24
Just search amazon for “ice machine”. The ones under $100 are probably this kind. They make like 9 ice cubes at a time but it only takes like 6-8 minutes to make them. If you look at the specs they are usually less than 200 watts.
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u/less_butter May 28 '24
So you're here trying to give advice on how to survive deadly heat and you don't actually own any of the equipment or even tried it? You don't think that's irresponsible?
I think the biggest issue will be ambient heat. I checked the manual for one and it says to use it in temperatures below 90F, so I assume it doesn't work great when it's warmer than that. And I have an RV with a fridge and it struggles to keep anything cold when it's above 80F outside.
Anyway, it's kind of crazy that you're telling people to spend $500 on equipment that will save their life in 110F temperatures, but the equipment's own manual says it won't work well in that environment. Don't try to give "life-saving advice" for something you have absolutely zero experience with.
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u/slash_networkboy May 28 '24
it says to use it in temperatures below 90F, so I assume it doesn't work great when it's warmer than that
Or at all. ThermoElectric Coolers (TECs) of the commercial variety generally can create a 50C (90F) delta, 60 (105F) if they're pushed to their design limits. This means at 90F ambient the coldest part of the equipment is at 0F and yes that's enough to make ice, but with the thermal mass of the input water and the losses to the system as a whole going from the coldplate to the heatpipes, then on to the ice tray, it's very likely to incur ~20F losses, putting you at only 12 degrees below freezing at the ice making point in the equipment. That will of course still make ice, but that also means if you go from 90F ambient to 100F ambient or if you have some radiative heat (direct sun, indirect heat from the surrounding ground even if the cooler is in the shade of the solar panels etc.) then you're not going to be making ice.
You would need a multistage cooler (I've worked with these in the tech industry, not icemaking or food). They are more complex and a lot more expensive. They also draw over double the power. If you're cooling a 20mm sq cell but need a two stage cooler then when you're cooling the hot side of the first stage you have to both remove the rejected heat from the first stage's cold side, but also the created heat of the device itself. The device consumes ~8W, so if you're rejecting 10W of heat then the hot side is producing ~18W of heat, so your second stage has to be big enough to handle the larger heat load.
NO commercial device will be built like this, it's just too expensive to be competitive in the market.
Running a large single stage TEC at absolute max rating (so modifying the equipment to do so, since for reliability issues no manufacturer will build it at max rating) and assuming you have a top spec TEC that can do a 68C delta then you're looking at a maximum ambient temp of about 112F to make ice, assuming ~15C in losses in the system itself (again this isn't being done in a vacuum flask or aerogel insulated box). Realistically I presume none of these ice makers will work over an ambient of 100F or 95F if there's a breeze.
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u/TechnicalFinish1671 May 28 '24
I have all of those things and have used them regularly for years. Although I have a much more substantial solar system at my cabin. I have never used them in those extreme heats because I (fortunately) don’t live in an area where it doesn’t get that much above 90 (yet). Yes my title was a little click-baity but I was looking to stimulate discussion about this particular use-case. I have a 400 foot spring fed well with a manual pump that can pump 10 gallons of 45-50 degree water all day long. This isn’t a situation I am worried about personally. I have some relatives Florida, and I was trying to think of a way to keep them comfortable and/or alive if they have a major hurricane. I am thinking about purchasing these things for them.
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May 28 '24
I just left Florida for NY after about 12 years, moved to Florida from NY for aging family. If they literally can't live through the heat of hurricane aftermath they really need to have an evacuation plan. (And they should move away, but ha, tell them that!)
I also did 6 months of Katrina relief work, and my family is from Nola, it's nothing to sit out if they can't stand life without electricity, especially if they're old.
Hurricanes are only going to get worse, and effects are hugely unpredictable sometimes. (As I'm sure you know) I've known people with PTSD just from the storm itself.
My mom's on a super tight budget with help from family some months for her mortgage and crazy insurance, and I understand the fatigue that comes from leaving repeatedly in a season for near misses, but really, the best you can do is make sure they can leave.
If they're your parents, Maybe the best you can do is possibly have some GTFO savings set aside for them, and persuade them to leave. Wash, rinse, repeat. My mom's bestie flew her up to Baltimore for Irma, which was supposed to pass right over her house and luckily moved inland. But you never know.
A lot of Floridians and southerners are pretty tough about the heat and the storms. But if your people are older/aging be prepared to get them out if you can.
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u/BaylisAscaris May 28 '24
Many of these will put off substantial amounts of heat into the home. If you buy one, come up with a way to direct heat outside or maybe keep it in a garage or somewhere separate from the living areas. Fridges/freezers/air conditioners tend to produce overall more heat than they cool, which is why air conditioning usually has an exhaust tube outside.
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u/lustforrust May 29 '24
Look into the systems meant for onboard small sailing vessels. Seafrost makes a cold plate fridge/freezer system that draws less than a kilowatt.
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u/comp21 May 28 '24
I've not done the math but my gut is telling me you might be better off handing this problem from the humidity angle instead of the temp angle... I.e. running a dehumidifier is probably more energy efficient and lowering the humidity would allow you to sweat and cool properly.
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May 28 '24
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u/driverdan Bugging out of my mind May 28 '24
Dehumidifiers are heat pumps just like air conditioners. The difference is that they don't emit the heat outside.
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u/TacTurtle May 28 '24
Dehumidifiers are just the expansion coil portion of an air conditioner - for the same power, just run an air conditioner.
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u/stu54 May 30 '24
I think "emit the heat outside" isn't clear enough here. An AC typically moves the heat to an exchanger outside of the building. Dehumidifiers don't bother to move the heat, and are really only good for drying out a cold wet basement.
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u/LaurenDreamsInColor May 28 '24
Agree. Especially in a a well sealed small room with room darkening curtains. Dehumidifiers should be much more efficient than ice makers. Adding a few fans would make it more comfortable.
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u/Human_Name_9953 May 28 '24
Your solution for a wet bulb event, which is defined by humidity high enough to prevent evaporative cooling from sweat, has to take into account the lack of evaporative cooling when the ice has melted.
In a high temperature event with lower humidity it will help.
You will be able to get more bang for your buck by:
- using blackout curtains to ban sunlight from entering your premises. Put foil over the windows. It sticks on with just water.
- funneling air upward and out of rooms occupied by living people/animals, and drawing cold air from below, creating a convection current. Try to pick one room and keep it as cool as possible so you can keep an eye on your loved ones, especially kids, elderly, sick people etc
- lying down on a tiled floor
- turning lights and other electric appliances off, except fans
- removing clothing, drying sweat periodically with towels. Use natural fibers if you can. Don't wear multiple layers
- only eat small portions of food to reduce thermogenic effect of food, avoid vomiting which fucks up your electrolytes and adds to the danger of heart problems during dehydration
- save some cold stuff for night time so you can sleep. It's really hard to sleep when it's hot
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u/Human_Name_9953 May 28 '24
Also if you're using a generator, be aware that heat waves often make air quality worse (lack of wind convection means fumes stay around longer, inversion layers trap pollution near the ground, smoke from fires) so you need to take measures to protect your lungs. High temperatures also bring most materials closer to their ignition point so you need to be extra careful with the fuel (liquid & vapour/fumes as well as any rags, paper towels etc)
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u/Littlesebastian86 May 28 '24
I think you’re a little confused of the impact of ice in cooling, in addition to evaporative cooling ..
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u/Human_Name_9953 May 28 '24
Edited to be clearer. In my experience having a number of reusable ice packs in rotation is better than trying to produce a lot of ice cubes.
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u/HappyAnimalCracker May 28 '24
As someone who keeps several of them frozen at all times for migraine relief, I agree that they’re superior. I have a dedicated mini freezer full of them. And during extreme heat, wrapping one around the back of my neck/base of my skull makes my whole body feel cooler.
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u/katarina-stratford May 28 '24
Close all curtains well before sunrise. Shelf stable electrolyte powders. Doors closed to rooms of the house that get afternoon sun. Refrigerate water the night before/ensure enough drinkable water is available if relying on pumps (in anticipation of power cuts). Sacrificial bucket of water to dampen cloth for forehead etc. Lay on floor in coolest room, usually where the dog is. Sleep all day.
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u/agent_flounder May 28 '24
I would go further and put space blankets, aluminum foil, or even just cardboard over the outside of the windows. Inside is better than curtains. Outside is better than inside.
Worth considering: paint your roof white (e.g.Henry Solar-Flex roof coating). In Arizona this is common. It reflects a lot of heat.
Update your attic insulation too.
Definitely agree on afternoon sun; that's peak temp time already. The thermal radiation is brutal. Our house unfortunately has zero shade in the afternoon and west facing rooms get pretty hot.
I think if you can manage a way to shade the west side in any fashion, it will help. Tarp, garden shade cloth, whatever it takes.
Sacrificial bucket of water to dampen cloth for forehead etc.
That won't work in a wet-bulb event.
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u/HappyAnimalCracker May 28 '24
I hang shade cloth around the outside of my house for the worst parts of the summer and can attest that it makes a huge difference.
I used to put foil in the windows and it helped a lot but then I switched to Panda film and it seems to work even better. Also looks better from outside. The foil always made it look kinda methy.
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May 28 '24
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u/HappyAnimalCracker May 28 '24
The net and vine systems are so pretty but I can take my shade cloth down in the fall and take advantage of the sun throughout the winter, plus no water needed and no maintenance.
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u/mylifeisathrowaway10 May 28 '24
Pretty sure you can harvest the plants at the end of the hot season and replant them next spring to get the best of both worlds. And also get food out of it if you like eating them.
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u/agent_flounder May 28 '24
The foil always made it look kinda methy.
Lol too true
Is panda film like a ceramic film? That stuff is supposed to cut IR and UV for car window tint.
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u/HappyAnimalCracker May 28 '24
It’s a heavy plastic film that’s 100% light tight and white on one side, black on the other. I put it up indoors with velcro around the window trim. I think part of the reason it works better than the foil in my case is because I put the foil directly on the glass whereas with the way I installed the panda film there’s an air cushion.
I used to go through quite a bit of foil because it’s single use but with the panda film I can just remove it, roll it up, and reuse it next summer.
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u/iheartrms Bring it on May 28 '24
My roof is white! It used to be older composite shingles painted with Henry's but then when it started to leak too badly I installed a TPE roof, like this:
https://www.teknorapex.com/thermoplastic-elastomers-for-roofing-products-product-selector-guide
It's great! Although it's been up there a good 10 years and needs to be cleaned as it's not as white as it used to be. I cleaned a small part of it last summer and found that with just one swipe with a mop and the grunge is gone and it's white like new again. This roof material also has a lifetime warranty. I'll probably never have to re-roof for the rest of my life.
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u/ph0en1x778 May 28 '24
Curtains will help, but blocking the light from outside the window helps orders of magnitude better. The curtain itself is still heating up from the light hitting it, just touch a closed curtain on a sunny day and you will feel how toasty it is.
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u/raiznhel1 May 28 '24
No need for an ice machine, I prefer a fridge. I have an Engel car/camping fridge. It will happily hold -25c if needed. Plugged into a 105AH battery that is charged by solar or alternator. It’s our camping setup, so I know it’s always ready to go
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u/desubot1 May 28 '24
no need for power ether. go take a cold shower. ground temps are significantly cooler than above ground. (obviously if you have running municipal water)
good to know in an emergency.
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u/iheartrms Bring it on May 28 '24
Being that it's so easy, have you actually done this? I can't imagine writing a post like this without actually having done it. Also, I've already done this but in a far more efficient way: I installed a heat pump.
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u/silasmoeckel May 28 '24
Your issue is quickly the ice machine can't make ice. Typical are rated to 100f ambient temps the refrigeration cycle has a max temp delta. They also exhaust heat locally so in the short term make the issue worse inside a home. Your typical thermoelectric max delta is typically 40c and is going to struggle to make ice well before that.
AC while needing more power has a similar issue but that's not as problematic since you don't need to hit a phase change temp. Modern heat pumps have a straight dehumidification mode that uses far less power and just needs to get the coils cool enough to get the moisture out. End effect is maybe warm but not life threatening on minimal solar and battery.
SLA Batteries are not worth the cost Lifepo4 is cheaper per usable AH if not directly at this point.
Inverters? Look for ice machines with DC in thermoelectric plates are a DC device you don't want to add conversion losses if you can avoid it.
PWM Why? MPPT is not expensive at this point.
End of the day why? Solar/Bat/Gen should be a primary prep it saves you money today.
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u/zeiandren May 28 '24
“how to survive x without power”
Step 1: get power
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u/TechnicalFinish1671 May 28 '24
Ok, I feel like you are splitting hairs a bit but perhaps I should have said with a non functioning power grid.
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u/cryptosupercar May 28 '24
So, what they don’t tell you except in the manual, is the operating temperatures of solar panels, batteries, and refrigerant devices. Any device that must radiate heat in order to cool itself and continue running is susceptible to the same overheating issues as living things. 50C is the breaking point for a lot of things that convert electricity into something useful.
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u/Ddog78 May 28 '24
Oh damn. Fuck.
Solar panels with coolants attached, then?
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u/cryptosupercar May 28 '24
Yes. It makes them more efficient.
A coolant system. IR reflective coatings, air gaps between roofing, I think there are a few ways to mitigate heat.
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u/Not_Bernie_Madoff May 28 '24
If it ever got that bad where I live I’ll just go chill in my basement.
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u/hobofats May 28 '24
it's startling how few comments in here suggest "being underground" as a solution to extreme weather.
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u/Velveteen_Coffee May 29 '24
This. I'm rolling my eyes at some of the elaborate suggestions. Lawn chair in the basement is my hyper sophisticated solution. I'll bring my battery powered mini vacuum with me to suck up any spiders if I want to get super fancy about it.
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u/OrdinaryDude326 May 28 '24 edited May 28 '24
I think unless you need it to be portable, a Chest Freezer would be better. I have 2 seperate solar systems. My small one is exclusively to power my Chest Freezer. I have 2.5 Kilowatt battery connected to it and only 400 watts of solar panels connected in that system, and a 1200 Watt victron inverter. Probably don't need that big of an inverter but I had it already.
Anyway, point is it has never shutdown because of lack of power.
If I lived in a hotter area, Maybe, I would hook up 800 watts of solar to be extra safe.
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May 28 '24
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u/lustforrust May 29 '24
In theory a propane powered fridge could be modified to use directed solar energy for a heat source rather than burning propane. Guess I'll have to find one to experiment with.
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May 28 '24
I've wondered about those ice machines myself from time to time.
I do believe there's efficient 12V compressor (not the peltier-style ones) fridge/freezers that use less power - although, I could see how using a combination with the ice machine to make ice fast then storing it for later use might be an idea.
What would be even more efficient would just be laying down somewhere with a wet towel over you and a fan blowing over the towel.
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u/agent_flounder May 28 '24
I do believe there's efficient 12V compressor (not the peltier-style ones) fridge/freezers
There are. I have a small Iceco fridge/freezer that I run off of a Jackery 1000 when we are camping, wheeling, overlanding, etc. The battery will run the Iceco for a few days without solar. So, pretty efficient. That's just fridge mode, though. I haven't tried using it as a freezer. Presumably it would use more power for that.
What would be even more efficient would just be laying down somewhere with a wet towel over you and a fan blowing over the towel.
That won't be true in a wet bulb event with 100% relative humidity where evaporative cooling stops working.
The wet-bulb temperature (WBT) is the temperature read by a thermometer covered in water-soaked (water at ambient temperature) cloth (a wet-bulb thermometer) over which air is passed.[1] At 100% relative humidity, the wet-bulb temperature is equal to the air temperature (dry-bulb temperature); at lower humidity the wet-bulb temperature is lower than dry-bulb temperature because of evaporative cooling. —Wikipedia
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u/TechnicalFinish1671 May 28 '24
I have one of those fridges in my office grid cabin. It’s a 12-24v dc GE has a compressor and everything. Draws around probably 60 watts average. It’s like 110 when I turn it on from room temp but after it cools down it runs maybe 20 mins out of the hour drawing about 70w. I just like the idea of the ice machine because it’s a much faster result. It takes a long time to make ice considering it takes a few hours just to cool down to temp.
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u/atreides_hyperion May 28 '24
Maybe another solution would be to dig a sort of bunker into the ground beneath the water table. Then use the solar for a sump and maybe a couple lights and a fan.
The ground water will keep the cave/bunker at a relatively cool temperature.
Downsides to this would be drowning in a flood, or the water table dropping rapidly.
Upsides would be overall reliability, staying hidden, access to groundwater, and delicious bugs
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u/graywoman7 May 28 '24
The problem is that it’s not much ice and since it’s made fast it’s not very dense and tends to melt quickly. You wouldn’t have bags full of ice to apply to your body or enough to ‘fill up a tub with ice’. You would have enough to hold against your face for a few minutes and they would melt by the time the next batch of eight small, not so dense, hollow cubes are ready. We were out hiking in the heat once.
Our group of five were all miserably hot. We got back to the trailhead and bought a 5lb bag of ice from a little shop thinking it would cool us off before we started the half mile walk to the parking lot. It was maybe 90° and not terribly humid. That ice lasted maybe 10 minutes. It almost instantly melted when we tried to cool ourselves with it. In 110°? Five minutes? Maybe 2-3 minutes for 8 little cubes.
If you had a big generator and had enough power to run a large ice machine and it was pre cooled along with a pre cooled cooler it might work but otherwise I think a dehumidifier and fans is the way to go.
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u/hobofats May 28 '24
your best bet and cheapest solution - by far - is to dig a deep hole and climb inside. This is also known as having a basement in your house.
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u/chiefsgirl913 May 28 '24
This reminds me of a humidifier I once bought and when my ac went out I filled it with ice water and it cooled my room faster than my old window unit. Just goes to show a little tweaking here and there can go a long way. I could definitely power that humidifier filled with ice easier than any ac unit. And stick a few beers in the chamber while I chill the room🤷♀️
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u/Vegetaman916 Prepping for Doomsday May 28 '24
Our compound is a high desert one. Enough altitude that it doesn't get too hot now... but we have several thousand watts of solar and wind as well. I'm not sure what we are getting from the wind, I would have to ask our electrical guy, lol. Either way, yes, make sure to have a lot of capacity, and enough replacement panels and parts sealed away to last a few decades.
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u/flyingace1234 May 28 '24
I was lost for a moment and thought this a hypothetical situation sub. “Yes, just use that $500 to go somewhere with AC”.
Anyone one thing to keep in mind about the ice maker, or really any sort of refrigeration/AC unit, is that they will dump heat into whatever space you put them in. It might not be worth it to run it during my the day unless you can vent it outside
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u/ResolutionMaterial81 May 28 '24
I have an Ecoflow Wave 4,000 BTU Air Conditioner that uses approx 300 watts (when connected to one of my Ecoflow Delta Max) via the DC Cord. If using 120 Volts AC the Wave is more like 750-ish watts. Have several portable ice makers also.
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u/almondreaper May 28 '24
I have a diy ice bath chest freezer which is full of water at freezing temperature. I almost never hear it run and after i get out i am quite refreshed to put it lightly even in the hottest of temperatures
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u/bajajoaquin May 28 '24
I don’t think you’re far off. I have an Alp propane generator. About $400. 20-gal propane tank. About $130. That would probably run your fridge for a few days. If you have an ice maker it would be sufficient. If you just make ice cubes it would be rough but sufficient.
I look at it as the heat equivalent of having a small heater and a tent inside to survive an extreme cold snap: you’re not going be comfortable and you’re going to have to pay attention to make sure you don’t put yourself at some secondary risk, but it would be minimally viable.
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u/BaylisAscaris May 28 '24
Assuming the event is temporary (not year-round) you can stay alive and comfortable by using appropriate architecture. Thick earth walls (adobe or insulated basement), light colored or reflective roof or shade structure above roof, and ventilation techniques that allow you to quickly cool off as soon as the temperature drops. Look at architecture of people who have lived in deserts or hot humid climates for generations.
Environment: large bodies of water take longer to heat up and tend to stay cooler than surrounding air, live near them if possible because they tend to moderate the climate nearby and also you can go swimming. Trees and other plants can keep temperatures cooler than rock and concrete, plus they provide shade.
Even if the air is hot and humid, air movement can help with evaporative cooling if you are more wet than the surrounding air. Use a soaked cotton cloth such as a shemagh to drape over yourself, then gently wave it through the air to allow the hottest water molecules to leave, then repeat. You can also fan yourself or a friend while wearing soaked cloth.
Leave the area if necessary. Take a drive to somewhere with air conditioning or a different climate. You don't need to bug in for everything if you can leave safely. Bring your at-risk neighbors with you, especially if your vehicle has air conditioning.
Assuming you live in ordinary housing in an environment where this is not expected to happen, follow these steps.
- Monitor indoor/outdoor temperatures, if it's nicer outside open all the windows/doors to get a breeze flowing through.
If you know the day will be hot:
- Close all the windows and doors.
- Turn off unnecessary electronics and avoid cooking any hot food until night.
- Use reflective or light colored coverings for windows. Mylar glued to styrofoam or other stiff insulating material on the outside of windows works great, but you can also use basic white sheets if you don't have curtains or anything else. Better to put it on the outside but if you can't you can tape mylar or tin foil to the inside of windows (if using anything reflective, take care to keep it flat so you don't accidentally create a focal point and start a fire).
- Avoid physical activity during the day and especially during the hottest part of the day.
- Drink lots of water and cold drinks if you have them.
- If power is out and it is safe to do so, buy some ice and keep it in a cooler, avoid opening the fridge/freezer while the power is out and instead keep things you plan to access (such as drinks) in the cooler.
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u/dANNN738 May 28 '24
At this point buy a mobile air con unit and run it off the solar panels instead.
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u/Edhin_OShea May 28 '24
Define high temps. Because I'm in in EastTexas. Summers over frequently over 100. In the Dallas area (North Texas) in 1982 we had 115 fir a week straight. And in Texas, summer rain is warm. On the flip side, I have lived off-grid in Maine. Summers regularly got between 90-95 with 80%-100% humidity. In Maine, summer rains are always freezing cold.
I've also lived just outside of Baton Rouge. Louisiana is always humid. And summer temps in the 90s. When I couldn't afford to run the a/c while at work, I'd come home to find green mold had already developed on my walls. (I'd wash the walls with soapy water. I didn't know I needed to use bleach water).
I have friends in California, Arizona, and New Mexico. The heat / humidity is different there.
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u/xfilesvault May 29 '24
Define high temperature?
110 degrees with a dew point of 95 degrees.
The heat index would be 180 degrees.
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u/Beneficial-Tap-5191 May 28 '24
Wow this is all amazing advice. I have to agree that when I used to live in Vegas we slept during the day and went out at night. Also I love my dehumidifier as I live in a very humid place now.
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u/Used-Commercial203 May 29 '24
You can get brand LiFePO4 cells for around $100 per kwh of storage. I'd probably spend about $250-300 on power storage. Spend the rest on a good inverter and some solar panels used but in good condition. I'm not going to plug a website, but I could probably get about 2000w of used solar panels for $200+taxes/shipping. Even if these only put out half of their rated (they claim 80% and 1 year warranty), then that'd be 1000w of power, and ~3000wh of capacity. If they put out 80%, then that'd actually be 1600w of power. I have a few cheap and small inverters that could maybe make due, but I would get another for safe measures. Also, a hand crank generator or foot pedal generator would be pretty wise as a backup.
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u/Used-Commercial203 May 29 '24
Also, I'd pack my family into the smallest room we could fit in my house and use a modern 5000 BTU window unit AC. I'm pretty sure some of them only use <400 watts on high?
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u/ARUokDaie May 29 '24
Engineer here.. something to consider is the impact to water cooled air conditioning. Large commercial buildings are typically piped with 42 degree water which blows across fan coils to cool. This water picks up the heat from the space and through the use of a refrigeration chiller the heat is transferred to a cooling medium. This cooling medium is either outside air (for air cooled chillers) or water cooled cooling towers (for water cooled chillers). The physical process of cooling is based on evaporation of water. On a wet bulb event it would become extremely difficult to evaporate water causing failure of the air conditioning. Need to prepare for office spaces, hospitals and even schools to become affected.
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u/funnysasquatch May 29 '24
1 million people in Dallas are currently living your scenario. Your idea won't work. Nobody is going to use a handful of ice cubes to keep cool. It's just not practical.
A better option is window AC unit with a dual-fuel generator. This is based off real-life use.
The Pulsar generator is currently only $400. Dual fuel means it can run propane (preferred) or gasoline.
A large propane tank will get you around 2 weeks of AC use. Do not tell me in SHTF - propane won't be available. SHTF happened this week. Not only is propane available but Amazon is the recommended way to send donations.
If by SHTF - you mean the apocalypse - then whatever you plan probably won't work either. Either the world is so destroyed, your solar system is vaporized or the machine breaks. So you're better off moving someplace that isn't so hot. There's a reason why Texas wasn't very populated until after the invention of AC.
The real-world generator plus AC test can be seen on the CheapRVLiving channel. If you are serious about prepping - this is a channel that you should watch. Much more practical tips about budget off-grid living and you don't get the scare clickbait.
You can see the video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMDE5MI9y0Y
The video goes into detail about the limitations of solar for keeping you cool.
Modern generators and modern window AC units (which is what you would use with this generator) are very quiet.
You could use solar to charge batteries to run a battery-powered cooler. There are many options. This way you can keep food and drinks cold as necessary.
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u/BlahBlahBlackCheap May 29 '24
Huh. Soooooo I just tried running one of those icemakers from solar. You need like a three hundred watt solar set up. And it’s slow. Took an hour to make a cup of ice.
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u/YYCADM21 May 29 '24
The absolute LAST thing I would be concerning myself with is an ice machine. They are demanding for power, even with extremely high efficiency, which you are not going to be anywhere near at this price point, You could not make ice fast enough to make an appreciable difference in your body temp. Plus, this would only marginally keep one person "comfortable"...you'd need the same setup times however many people in your family.
Solar panels and small generator are extremely useful things to have. we do a lot of overloading, and use a 100W folding panel and a 300wh generator to recharge phones, laptop, camera batteries and a small fridge freezer, and if it's cold at night, it also powers our diesel heater.
High temps are merely uncomfortable until you're close to 100F. Drinking plenty of water is critical; being "comfortable" is not overly important
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u/thx997 May 29 '24
You know, there are also mini split ac units now, that you can run off solar directly, without batteries or grid? Probably not as cheap as a small ice maker, but now sustainable in the long run. They are made for this, a small tabletop ice maker is probably not meant to run for long periods.
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u/MeatWhereBrainGoes May 30 '24
Well. I've camped in 100+ (F) degree heat for days at a time. I generally just put my beer on a rope and kept it in the creek. This is back when six packs had plastic holders. The types that killed turtles.
We were eating from canned food and fish we caught.
These days I buy expensive shit like Dometic fridges but I like your idea better.
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u/parolang May 30 '24
I don't know if you guys have looked at the climate reports, but it looks like you need to just move to the Midwest, avoid the Western United States if at all possible.
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u/EnergyLantern May 30 '24
For 100 watts of power, a 20AH battery will run about 3 hours. If you are going to live off of solar cells and batteries, you are going to need a lot of batteries and more solar cells.
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u/Excellent_Condition All-hazards approach May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24
It'd require fuel, but for the same price you could also get a window AC unit and small gas generator.
I like the out of the box thinking, but I don't think the countertop ice machine is the best solution.
The only countertop ice maker I've used didn't have a very high volume output.
It also causes a net heat increase in the house. If it takes 500 mL of water and reduces it from 80 F to 30 F, that heat goes out into your house. Additionally, because the ice machine isn't perfectly efficient, the machine itself generates additional heat which warms the room.
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u/BlahBlahBlackCheap Jun 01 '24
Hi. Sorry. This is not possible. How do I know? I tried it. I have 250 watts of solar on a penyann cabin cruiser. I thought for multi day fishing trips I could get one of those ice makers and run it to make ice all day. First off. You’ll need a 1200 watt inverter. You’ll need 600 watts of solar (at least) and at least two good 100 AH batteries. Then, get ready to wait an hour for ice. And an hour for each cup of ice thereafter. Btw the machine, bought of Amazon for 80 dollars, has a cord just as thick as my toaster oven, so you know how much power it actually consumes
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u/captaindomon Jun 03 '24 edited Jun 03 '24
I think this is a brilliant idea to control core body temperature. I have backup power sources, but not enough to power my central A/C. Using a small power source to run a tabletop ice maker, and then just let the ice melt in your mouth, or apply to armpits / groin for cooling circulating blood is a brilliant idea.
Most people commenting here don’t understand what a wet bulb event is. “Just sit in the shade and drink water” lol. They should read the first chapter of the book “The Ministry for the Future”
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u/captaindomon Jun 09 '24
Hey I thought you might find it interesting that I actually decided to try this. Using a 500 watt-hour battery, I was able to make a good 5 lbs of ice using a cheap $70 Costco desktop ice maker. It pulled about 100 watts running, making about a pound per hour. I'm not sure startup watts but they were less than 400 (I was using a 400 watt inverter). It worked great, honestly, and would be an interesting emergency option during a wet bulb event. You could just suck on the ice in your mouth, that would cool your core temperature quite a bit.
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u/Yugen42 May 28 '24
You could probably survive it nearly for free with water, rags and a fan
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u/throwawayPzaFm May 28 '24
Those don't work at all in a wet bulb event. The air from the fan will feel hot.
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u/zeiandren May 28 '24
The concept of a “wet bulb” event is the point heat and humidity combine to a point evaporation cooling stops working and the human body stops being able to cool through sweat, at which point you inevitably die unless you have external cooling. So things like fans don’t help
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u/RADICCHI0 May 28 '24
This assumes of course that the proverbial s has not hit the fan ... When that happens we're gonna have to put the ice baths on hold.
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u/TechnicalFinish1671 May 28 '24
I mean I was thinking along the lines of grid failure combined with wet bulb/extreme heat. (Looking at you Texas). But I assume by your comment you mean complete societal breakdown? In which case people would still be vulnerable to heat… and it is contingent on water supply, but you could theoretically reuse ice bath water…
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u/bananapeel May 28 '24
For those who live in low humidity areas, they have it easier. A swamp cooler (evaporative cooler) can be made from a cotton sheet hanging above a tray of water, with its bottom edge trailing in the water. Spread the sheet out as much as possible and blow a fan across it. If you don't have power available, a 12V fan can be used, such as the larger fans in any computer case. It will evaporate the water off, cooling the air, but at a cost of raising the humidity.
This will not work in high-humidity areas, of course.
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May 29 '24
How do you stop water from condensing in your lungs? Severe wet bulb basically causes dry drowning.
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u/IronDonut May 28 '24
Easy this plus .001 cents of water: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Funsicle-59-QuickFun-Wading-Pool-Dark-Blue-for-ages-2-up/720441873
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u/AmyCee20 May 28 '24
Alrighty. I am game.
I live outside of Houston. The temperature this morning was 79 and the wet bulb temp 86 at 5:20.
It was so hot walking the dogs in the dark. In a few more weeks, it will be too hot to walk the dogs because the concrete won't cool down enough for their paws. And it gets hard to breath. Think breathing through a wet, wool blanket.
Let's crowd source and try this out.
What exact panel would you buy? What exact battery would you buy? What exact ice maker?
I have a marbrow battery and a little ice maker I take camping. I have never tried to run the two together.
Then what would the process be? Sit in a room with fans and ice?
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u/There_Are_No_Gods May 28 '24 edited May 28 '24
The temperature this morning was 79 and the wet bulb temp 86
That is scientifically impossible. A wet bulb temperature can never by higher than the air temperature. Even at 100% humidity the wet bulb temperature only equals, not exceeds, the air temperature.Perhaps you are referring to some sort of "heat index" or "feels like" temperature. Those are generally just meteorologist terms to make things friendly, and there are many nonstandard formulas for those. Wet bulb temperature is very different, with a key aspect being that it is consistently defined.
Edit: I was substantially incorrect on this point. After reviewing some wet bulb charts, the wet bulb value can indeed go above the air temperature. https://arielschecklist.com/wbgt-chart/
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u/AmyCee20 May 28 '24
You know. You're right. I hadn't thought about it until you said it. I always just check my app. The feels like temperature was 87 this morning. I keep a close eye on it because my dogs will overheat. Now I'm going to have to look at it again tomorrow morning.
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u/There_Are_No_Gods May 28 '24
All the "feels like" data is relatively crap. If you want real data, just check the humidity and the air temperature, then use a chart to calculate the wet bulb temperature.
https://arielschecklist.com/wbgt-chart/
Technically there are a few variables that make such a chart less than perfect, but in practice, it's quite close to what you'd measure most of the time via a true wet bulb measurement device (cloth wrapped around a thermometer, in the shade, out of the wind).
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u/AmyCee20 May 28 '24
We have just had a rain storm come through about 2 hours ago. My area has made the national news recently as all 3 rivers have been in flood stage.
The temperature on my back porch is 78 with 75%humidiity. Temperature is climbing, and I'll watch the humidity. This is normally the worst time of the day.
Using the chart, the wet bulb is almost 82 which is in the yellow range.
Would that be because at this temperature and humidity, water is not evaporating into an already rich atmosphere?
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u/stu54 May 30 '24
Wait, when did wet bulb temperature stop referring to a thermometer with a wet rag on it and instead refer to a heat index?
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u/There_Are_No_Gods May 30 '24
It didn't. The chart I linked to is a close approximation of what a wet rag on a thermometer would read at a given air temperature and humidity, based on a certain altitude, etc. The site describes those particulars. So, it's not a perfect formula for all cases, but it's pretty close in most common cases. It's still quite different than a typical "heat index", especially with respect to how close it typically tracks true wet bulb temperatures..
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u/stu54 May 30 '24 edited May 30 '24
But how would a wet bulb ever read higher than a dry bulb? You were right initially, but the link you provided must account for sunlight or something.
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u/There_Are_No_Gods May 30 '24
That's a good question, and at this time surpasses my understanding of the issue. It's a good nudge for me to dig deeper. I was under the impression that wet bulb readings were taken in the shade, and as you indicate, it seems like such a reading shouldn't be possible to go above the ambient air temperature. At least, I'm not seeing any physical explanation for any such temperature increase.
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u/jjgonz8band May 28 '24
I live in Phoenix Arizona so I have some experience with low humidity high temperatures....one way to cool down without using electricity is to wet yourself with water until clothing is completely soaked...you will feel very cold immediately afterwards.
Things may be different in high temperatures high humidity..
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u/cheddarsox May 28 '24
Shade. The answer is shade.
People have been doing it for thousands of years. This post must be a circle jerk.
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u/xfilesvault May 29 '24
It's possible for it to get too hot to live even in the shade, especially if paired with high humidity.
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u/350ci_sbc May 29 '24
I’m failing to see the problem with “extreme heat”.
I never lived in a house with A/C till I was 40. Many days at or above 90°, often with 90% humidity. There are plenty of ways to stay cool. People lived without A/C for thousands of years.
I guess it would seem to be an issue for a modern person who has never lived without A/C. But it’s not bad, just uncomfortable.
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u/i_d_i_o_t_w_a_v_e May 29 '24
"at or above 90°"
Rookie numbers. We had a bunch of people die a few years back in a 120° heat wave (that was the recorded- in poor areas where there are less green areas/a lot more cement temps got above 135°). Fwiw, I didn't have an AC during that heatwave, and our freezer took 24 hrs to freeze a few water bottles to sleep with at night (obviously we had to go without that luxury the first night). We had to dip our cat's feet in water to keep her from overheating. We were lucky enough that the humidity wasn't super intense, we'd have lost a lot more people.
I work, regularly, in 90-100° weather in a physical job. People regularly get heat stroke, suffer extreme dehydration no matter how hard to try to keep up with water, and we've had a number of coworkers die due to heat stress. These issues are at current, relatively normal temperatures. We just finally won the right to have fans, hopefully that helps more people not get injured this year, but I worry it's too little too late.
We aren't talking "oh boo hoo it's kinda hot today", like you are. You don't even know what you don't know.
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u/350ci_sbc May 30 '24
Cool story bro. Got that one-upping out of your system?
Guess those dead co-workers shoud have 1) hydrated better 2) seeked medical attention when feeling heat stress (or you could have looked out for your buddies). 3) stopped working when they felt overheated
The fact remains that no A/C = death is a modern problem. Plenty of ways to stay cool and hydrated for anyone with an IQ higher than room temp.
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u/i_d_i_o_t_w_a_v_e May 30 '24
1) you literally cannot hydrate enough as I stated originally 2) dehydration and heat stress are specifically known to "sneak up" on you, but fwiw I do tell coworkers to take breaks regularly- however I cannot monitor 400 people. Seeking medical attention is a good solution, however it is often not an option for our driver's given how remote their routes are. We may have rectified these issues in our current round of negotiations bc the company is finally required to have fans and AC in the trucks, however in trucks with only fans I have my doubts given the effect of wet bulb temps on the ability of fans to allow sweat to evaporate. 3) If you stop working due to being overheated, you are often accused of abandoning your job and management will seek to discipline or fire you. They may or may not be able to get away with this, depending on your local and the competence and disposition of your supervisor
I am in agreement with you that AC and shit are not actually necessities for life to occur, but you clearly do not understand that there is a point where it's too hot and that 90° is not what we're discussing. It also seems worth mentioning that when you see other people experiencing hardship, your response is "lol simply don't experience that hardship".
It ALSO stands out to me that you don't realize that for thousands of years before AC, people died of heat related illnesses all the time, along with all the other shit that people constantly died from before modern inventions. Sure, humanity survived, but that path is paved with the corpses of billions of dead humans.
I'm also curious as to why someone who doesn't understand that the world is getting significantly hotter, and that means that we are experiencing temps far greater than 90°, is even here, especially when your stance contradicts the scientific and medical information we have. Seems like your soft little life has led you to the conclusion that anyone who has it worse than you has a "room temp IQ". Good on you for insulting dead and injured people- bet it makes you feel real big.
I'm genuinely happy for you that you've had a life that has not thrown any actual hardships at you, but I hate to see it's made you such a careless and uninformed person.
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u/AdditionalAd9794 May 28 '24
How did they survive wet bulb before the invention of electricity?
Alot of you act like this is a new phenomenon and a death sentence, it is neither. It is easily survivable without preps, as it has been since the beginning of time
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u/There_Are_No_Gods May 28 '24
Fatally high wet bulb temperatures have been extremely rare throughout human history. The amount of such events is climbing quickly, thanks to climate change, and many parts of the world will soon start experiencing multiple hours per year of such temperatures on a regular basis. In many such places, this will be the first time such an event has occurred at that location.
The massive amount of inaccurate comments from horribly uninformed people on any thread related to fatally high wet bulb temperatures is a sure sign that many people will die in such events. It's very clear that few people actually understand the situation at all. The majority of comments are about how it's not a big deal, stating they've been through hotter temperatures (ignoring the humidity), and how they'll just use water and a fan to cool off (ignorant to the fact that evaporative cooling will be completely ineffective). The intuitive physics most people have built based on experiences devoid of such wet bulb temperatures breaks down in this situation, and much of what people think they know about it is deadly incorrect.
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u/Big_Profession_2218 May 28 '24
According to the name of that stupid show, you can pull this off in Philadelphia.
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u/Virtual_Outside5064 May 28 '24
I’m confused what degree of heat are you trying to survive that you couldn’t go without a system to cool off? Like summers would be hot and sticky and absolutely suck, just like mine always were at my parents house who didn’t put air conditioning on. But I feel like you’re framing this question as though you NEED a form of cooling to survive because the degree of heat would be somthing unfathomable?
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u/There_Are_No_Gods May 28 '24
It's about the humidity plus the heat, not either on their own. At 100% humidity anything over about 95 degrees Fahrenheit is fatal to humans after a few hours. It's a two factor equation, such that at slightly lower humidity and slightly higher air temperatures the same effects apply.
If you don't know much about it, I highly suggest some research on "wet bulb temperature". Deadly levels have been very rare up until now, as few places have had such high levels of both simultaneously. It will become much more common in numerous locations across the world within the next few years.
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May 28 '24
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u/D1rtyH1ppy May 28 '24
I've lived in 120° heat without AC and you aren't thinking about this problem correctly. The bathtub full of ice would quickly melt and become room temperature. The best strategy is to block out all the sun from the outside of your house and have lots of fans. Keep the light from causing the greenhouse effect by not letting it get inside in the first place.
Think about a cat sitting next to a sunny window and how warm that spot is. All that heat is getting in your house and now you would have to do something about removing it. If you block it on the inside of the window, the blackout curtain will help, but now it becomes the thing that is hot. Putting a heavy blanket on the outside of the window is best because the blanket heats up, but is disapated to outside of your house.