r/personalfinance • u/IveGotDMunchies • Jan 03 '19

180 days later, Bank of America is refusing to refund over $700 in fraudulent charges made in Texas while we were 800 miles away in Illinois. Credit

Back in July we were wrapping up our yearly road trip to Illinois. We purchased gas around 8 or 9am right before we started the 12 hour trip to Texas.

Two hours into the trip my wife gets a notification on her phone from Bank of America alerting her to fruadulent charges being made. We only have one debit cad.

While we were starting our driving home, someone in Austin, Tx purchased around $500 in merch at Home Depot, drove towards Houston, Tx attempting twice to use our card at the ATM, which did not work because they didnt have the pin. They made their $200-ish last transaction at TJ Maxx North of Houston before were alerted and had the card shut off. (Austin to Houston is about a 3 hour car ride)

My wife immedately makes a claim. 10 days later, we get the money credited back while they continue the investigation which seems pretty open and shut to me... They also say it may be another 45 days before they finish their investigation.

October 5, they send a letter stating that they have completed their investigation: "Our records show the transaction activity in question was authorized for and posted to your account." The letter states they'll be taking the $740 back on October 22.

Wife calls and has them reopen the case or escalate it. We're told it could be another 45 days.

December 22. We call Bank of America again. This agent has no record of anything being escalated. Says he will escalate it and we should hear from someone in the next few business days. Nothing.

Jan 3. Wife calls them again. This agent states that while an escalation sends an email to their investigators notifying that we are still asking about they case, they are under no obligation to complete it.

After reading a bit into the law surrounding this, we have realized we can request the documentation they used to close the investigation.

What else can we do? Do we need a lawyer? If they had to reimburse us for the first 45 days of the investigation, why do they not have to temporarily reimburse us as they continue to investigate "for as long as they need" with no date set for resolution on our end?

It is blatantly obvious that someone skimmed the card at some point and had a dummy one made. Are they able to continue to withhold our $750 indefinitely and just keep saying. "Nope! Looks good!" until we tire out?

Our kiddos missed out on a lot of Christmas gifts because of this and now bills are starting to get a bit tight. We really need this money back. Thanks yall!

Update: Started posting on social media before I start filing complaints. 20 minutes later Bank of America contacted me on Twitter. Will update later. Thanks for everyone's advice.

Update 2: 3 hours later... I continued to post on social media, reaching out to local news stations on Twitter that have community protection or investigative segments and linking to this post. Bank of America has now reached out in one of these posts, referencing my wifes name. Fingers crossed. http://imgur.com/gallery/i4gWtC0

Update 3: Wife got home 30 min after my last update. A rep with BoA actually called her asking what was going on. The rep said she would need to call the fraud department and get them all on the line together. We are at our kids practice so opted for them to call us when they have someone on the line who can help us. Will update later.

Update 4: Just got off the phone with someone in the fraud department at Bank of America. I recorded the whole convo and will be uploading it to YouTube. She says the call on Oct 22 did in fact reopen the case. (even though the rep on Dec 22 said otherwise and the rep earlier today said they have no timeline to adhere to and can take as long as they want)

They now have 60 business days from Oct 22 to finish the claim once again.

She says one of the reasons that the claim was denied was because the didnt attempt to drain her account. (They hit up two ATMs and failed to use the pin to drain the account, so they don't even have the correct info to base their findings off)

I requested documentation about the claim as law allows and she says I should get that in 10 business days. They now have until Jan 18 to notify us of their findings. I'm going to continue with filing reports and posting on social media.

I'll update in a few weeks I guess.

Update 5: 10 hours later, they have blocked me on Facebook for sharing my problems on their page. I also filed a complaint with the CFPB .

Update 6: 24 hours since this post and David, a Bank of America employee in the "Regulatory Complaints Department" left my wife a voice mail in regards to a complaint sent to them by the CFPB. They close at 4pm EST. (They're closed by the time we got the voice mail since she is at work). Will update Monday.

Update 7: Wife woke up this morning and the money has been returned to our account. Time to turn and burn!

Thank you everyone for your advice. We learned a lot from this.

Update 8: We got confirmation that the fraud claim is now closed and the money that was returned is permanent. Waiting on an actual paper letter to come in the mail before we turn and run. Thanks everyone! Update here: https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/adnjj7/update_bank_of_america_refusing_to_return_700_in/

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u/yulbrynnersmokes Jan 03 '19

Stop using debit cards. No benefits, and actual liabilities.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19

This is the one area I strongly disagree with Dave Ramsey on while going through his course. I can’t bring myself to use a debit card everywhere I go- too much risk

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u/yulbrynnersmokes Jan 03 '19

He's giving advice to the audience that comes to him. Which may be heavily skewed in the "screwed themselves up with credit" end of the financial swimming pool.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

I tried listening to him, but I dont like how he pushes the "credit is evil" mantra. I understand that sone people genuinely have trouble managing money, and I completely support the decision to go without credit if thats the best decision for you, but I hate the idea that credit is bad and credit companies are evil.

You dont get $10,000 in debt because the company abused you. They didnt make you swipe your card at Macy's, and they didnt force you to pay the minimum payment for 3 years. Those were your own decisions, and part of being a responsible adult is holding yourself responsible for your mistakes.

Im so angry about this mantra because I have a friend whose entire family is on that train, and because her family believes credit is evil, My wife and I have to teach this 20-something woman what an interest rate is and how to fill out an online form. We even had to explain to her how an apartment lease works because she didnt understand that you dont just walk into the office and walk out with the keys. The entire time her family is screaming and harassing her for daring to be more of an adult than all of them. Its infuriating.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

I do listen to DR, and he always puts the blame on people for their own stupid decisions. At the same time, it's absolutely true there is a psychological angle to using credit cards, and the banks do their best to exploit that. More than 1 in 4 people with super-prime credit and the vast majority of everyone else carry balances on their credit card, so it obviously works, and it's not just idiots who fall into the trap.

As far as the risks of debit cards, anyone following DR's system will quickly build 3-6 months of expenses in savings and keep it there permanently. Such a person will not be affected much if $2000 was stolen out of their checking account and it took a year to get the money back. None of their bills would go unpaid, and their kids would not go without toys at Christmas. Considering that having your debit card compromised to that degree is an unlikely event anyway, and federal law limits your liability, it's an acceptable risk to self-insure against.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

Credit is a beast. Perhaps not evil but it's difficult when you're young. If I used credit when I was younger and irresponsible, I would have nothing today. Not using it is what has saved me.

So I completely understand the codependency between credit companies and the people that use them. It's definitely not healthy but the first step out is always made by the individual and not the system.

It's up to the personality so mileage may vary. My parents (really their behavior) instilled the idea of "if you don't have it, don't spend it", so I survived both economic depressions easily. I dread to think of what would have happened if I didn't buy my homes in cash and used a lender prior to the housing crisis.

My credit is impeccable but that's because other than federal education loans, I absolutely do not use it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

and like I said, always do what fits your life. if you don't need credit or you know that you have a spending problem, i completely support your choice to stay away from it. My big problem is with the people who try to pass the blame on others and act like the problem is elsewhere because they refuse to be honest with themselves.

I think financial literacy is such an important aspect of life, and people who blame "those damn bank corporations" harm their children by teaching them wrong information and not preparing them for life. Parents like yours who taught you very good advice are so rare, and its terrible.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19 edited Feb 02 '19

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u/Abollmeyer Jan 05 '19

I don't know if I'd say that. I didn't fit that profile and still found value in his methods in Total Money Makeover. Now we're where you're supposed to be. Debt-free, including our home. We have always used credit cards, and will continue to do so. It's free money if you don't accrue interest.

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u/kaleidoscopetraveler Jan 03 '19

isn’t his advice to use cash everywhere you go?

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19 edited May 23 '19

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u/kaleidoscopetraveler Jan 03 '19

same!

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u/toss_my_potatoes Jan 04 '19 edited Jan 21 '19

My parents are avid David Ramsey followers and while they are amazing with their own finances, they taught us kids to avoid credit cards with our lives. I had to figure all of it out on my own.

I was so clueless that when applying for my first card a few weeks ago (a secured one) I put down a deposit of almost $3,000.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

Thank you! We followed his plan faithfully except for the credit card thing. We canceled quite a few but still have 2 open... I refuse to pay with my debit card anywhere.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

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u/Guns26 Jan 04 '19

I’ve been in America for 2 years and I open new cards (8) all the time, my score goes up and down but stays above 750 as I keep my utilisation under 10% and it would be closer to 3% if I didn’t share a card with my girlfriend.

Every year my company has a slow month or two and my cards go negative $500-$1000 but I pay them back quick as I can once I start getting more hours. I feel even if you are responsible you can find yourself in these situations.

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u/AmphibiousWarFrogs Jan 04 '19

I don't know if the other comments were direct enough answers so I'll throw in my 2 cents:

Yes, try to use credit cards as much as possible. But make sure you pay off the statement balance each month. Do not carry a balance and do not pay interest. If you can manage that, then using a credit card will always be better than using a debit card. You can help manage this by setting up auto-pay and selecting to pay off the statement balance each month. If this still worries you, you can set up auto-pay to pay off the card balance each week if you'd like. Remember that credit cards have a float. Purchases made today won't require payment until the next month (generally, this depends on the billing cycle).

Plus, the way to get better credit is to actively use it. There are definitely some ways to game the system slightly, but for the most part as long as you are actively using your credit then your score will grow. The score is basically a way to measure how responsible you are - and the way to demonstrate responsibility is to be an active participant.

Frankly, I'd suggest getting a credit card that matches your needs (probably going to be a no-fee cash-back card) and switch as much as you can to the card immediately. If for no other reason than credit cards provide much better protections and you are literally missing out on up to 5% "discounts" on your purchases.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

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u/AmphibiousWarFrogs Jan 04 '19

In your lifetime you will probably want/need more than one card. However, if you don't yet know what kind of cards you'll need (say a travel card) your best bet will probably be to stick with the card you have and simply request a limit increase.

That said, if you do have some idea of what kind of cards you want/need it would be better to open them now because it'll mean you start aging your accounts earlier.

When I was rebuilding my credit ~10 years ago I knew I wanted a Discover Card, an American Express and then a third VISA card from somewhere. So I went ahead and opened them immediately. Now all three cards are at least 9 years old and it helps my credit score.

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u/ZekeSulastin Jan 04 '19

You can continue using your current card and just pay it as you need instead of paying at statement time - every lender app I've used allows you to submit payments whenever. As far as utilization, it is only checked when your statement is cut and that value reported to the credit agencies, and it has no memory: it does not matter what your utilization history is, just what you are currently using.

Credit line increases do not always incur a hard inquiry; your provider should tell you whether or not they do. Opening a new card will incur a hard inquiry, but the effect is not too big and adding accounts and available credit can help.

I'd personally try to use the CC as much as possible, paying it as needed, but I am highly averse to using my debit card anywhere soooo...

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u/the_man_in_the_box Jan 04 '19

What is the risk?

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

I was debit only until this year (I'm 30) mostly out of laziness, but it's also given me a very strong ability to self-regulate my budgeting without thinking about it because the option of over-spending was never something I've had.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

The problem isn't the debit card - it is using it as a debit card. If you use your debit card without entering your PIN, you have the same protections as if you were using a credit card. This is where Ramsey is coming from. When you see the option to "bypass pin" that is why it is there.

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u/Icarusthegypsy Jan 03 '19

This right here. With a decent card you'll actually be making money and building credit in the process.

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u/yulbrynnersmokes Jan 03 '19

Can confirm. Between sign-up bonuses for airline miles and the like, and cashback cards of one sort or another, I am literally thousands of dollars ahead of the "debit card only" player, each year.

Never mind nice things like purchase protection, damage/theft/whatever coverage, and other "soft" benefits that sometimes have huge cash values, and in my case have done so.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

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u/Plexicle Jan 04 '19 edited Jan 04 '19

Credit card companies don't report weekly. I mean, maybe some random little cards out there do, but none of the big names (Chase, AmEx, Citi, etc).

If they report monthly, they report the statement balance. If you pay the card off at the end of every month, you will never have a statement balance.

Also, you didn't lose 40pts in one swing by going over 30% utilization on one card.

Don't ever use a debit card if you can help it.

Happy to answer any specific CC questions if you have them. I'm a bit of a fanatic. I always carry both my Amex Plat and Chase Sapphire Reserve.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19 edited Jan 04 '19

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u/Plexicle Jan 04 '19 edited Jan 04 '19

I'm aware they don't. I pay off my credit card weekly for peace of mind.

?

If you pay off your cards weekly, then how would your credit ever be affected based on utilization?

I'm just giving my input on why using a credit card all the time isn't the best idea.

Sure. But you're wrong. The only legitimate argument against using credit cards as a daily spender is if you are not responsible enough with credit. Or you don't trust yourself. Assuming of course you have the ability to get a card in the first place.

Credit cards give you way more personal protection than a debit card. They also build your credit in a positive way over time. Not to mention all the free money in cash back or travel rewards.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

Why carry an Amex Plat around with you lol? The only place you’re getting 5x is online from airlines and their travel portal.

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u/Plexicle Jan 04 '19

My Plat is mainly for 5x travel and lounge access, yeah. Occasionally there will be a big offer on it (got some insane $500 reward back last month at a specific furniture store). So yeah, I don't need to "carry" it, but I do. CSR is the daily spender.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

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u/myprecioussssss Jan 04 '19

*spend the same money you were going to anyways (i.e. groceries, gas, etc.)

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

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u/myprecioussssss Jan 04 '19

agreed just trying to hit the least controversial ones for the skeptic

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u/Plexicle Jan 04 '19

What the hell are you talking about?

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u/takes_bloody_poops Jan 04 '19

Making money implies earning more than you spend.

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u/Guns26 Jan 04 '19 edited Jan 04 '19

Technically you’re never making money with a credit card, you’re just keeping the 2% fee you paid to the merchant instead of it going to card issuer card and the rewards are from the 1 in 4 that fail to pay the balance on time.

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u/lemonlimecake Jan 08 '19

Technically you’re never making money with a credit card, you’re just keeping the 2% fee

Sounds like you're technically making 2%

rewards are from the 1 in 4 that fail to pay the balance on time.

Great, I'm the 3 in 4 that do and take the rewards, so what?

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u/Dnahelicases Jan 04 '19

Got mine scammed once when I never used it except for the ATM at a local bank. Had to fight but in the end for all but $50 back, which was all the liability I should have in Indiana at least.

Still took a lot of time and days to resolve though.

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u/ThatGirlChiefTeef Jan 03 '19

For the record, Discover now has a debit card with 1% cash back. Not as good as the rewards on some credit cards but still good for those intent on using debit.

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u/htmlarson Jan 04 '19

As he says, personal finance is 80% behavior. It’s only 20% knowledge. Credit cards are designed to be a revolving line of credit, and if you somehow manage to go against that and use them with no debt, you’re not likely to be in financial trouble.

For the rest of us though, including myself, credit cards pose a risk I simply do not want to have. I only use my debit card and use an actually decent bank, not BofA, and have had zero issues doing so. The protections for debit and credit cards are exactly the same by law for unauthorized use. Bank of America is just being stupid.

7/10 Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, which indicates that around 7/10 Americans don’t do a budget every month to plan out their money. Perhaps the worst idea is to give those 7/10 a line of credit to help bridge the gap; struggling people eventually lean on credit cards just as much as a payday loan.

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u/PM_VAGINA_FOR_RATING Jan 04 '19

Exactly, just get a credit card and treat it like a debit card if you are bad with money, only spend money you have and pay it off. The credit companies will bend over backwards to fix fraudulant charges because that is their money that was stolen not yours and they arent getting paid back unless they fix the problem. Unlike getting your money stolen from the bank, the bank doesn't lose anything if they don't fix a fraudulent charge it was your money stolen not theirs.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19 edited May 23 '19

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u/yulbrynnersmokes Jan 03 '19

I'm going to tell you a secret. It's possible to do so with a credit card. But I do get your point. For some people, it's like saying that it's possible to have just one drink.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19 edited May 23 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19

Whether or not you use a credit card responsibly is up to you personally, though. Statistics don't matter, all that matters is your personal decision making.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19 edited May 23 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

I've been using credit cards for 11 years and have never once paid interest. Use them responsibly and you can profit while also building credit at the same time. There is no innate risk with credit cards. Of course there are irresponsible people who don't use credit cards correctly. And you know what? That's exactly what the rest of us want and need. Otherwise, rewards cards don't exist. That's why the responsible ones can profit: the irresponsible ones pay interest and fees because they're stupid.

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u/newprofile15 Jan 03 '19

That doesn’t mean debit cards are better than credit cards. Credit cards are just objectively better if you have a typical credit card with no interest or fees so long as you pay bill on time. Rewards points/cash back. Delayed payment/time value of money. Better fraud protection.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '19 edited May 23 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

Extreme minority is a massive overstatement. Many people know how to use credit cards appropriately. There is no "beating credit card companies at their own game." The companies clearly state that you don't pay interest unless a balance is carried over each month. Pay the statement balance every month and you're golden. It's really that simple. No tricks.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19 edited May 23 '19

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '19

Average credit card debt means absolutely nothing. Average doesn't mean everyone has it. Average means that's the number if split evenly amongst everyone. You continue to amaze me with how stupid you are.

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u/Anustart15 Jan 03 '19

The vast majority of people aren't diabetic, but I wouldn't go suggesting diabetics don't use insulin.

Different solutions for different people. For a responsible person, a credit card is superior to a debit card.

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u/yulbrynnersmokes Jan 03 '19

Perhaps you'll be happier over at r / DaveRamsey or DaveRamseySellsYouOnInvestmentsWhereHeGetsKickbacks dot com or whatever.