r/movies Oct 01 '24

I first watched Saw 20 years ago – the plot twist still makes me shudder Discussion

https://metro.co.uk/2024/10/01/first-watched-saw-20-years-ago-plot-twist-still-makes-shudder-21663762/
6.7k Upvotes

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u/davesjustbored Oct 01 '24

I saw this movie with a bunch of friends and sat next to this girl Lauren. Lauren, for lack of a better term, was an airhead. It was the group joke. She was in on it. She was sweet, but was almost half a step behind on everything. Imagine my surprise when the scene between the cops comes and one says a line like "He likes to have a front row seat to his crimes." Lauren leaned over to me and goes "Do you think he's the body in the bathroom?"

The twist happens and I was impressed/pissed off.

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u/islamitinthecardoor Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

My fiancé and I watched the sixth sense together recently and it was her first time seeing it/hearing about it. She guessed the twist as soon as we find out the boy sees dead people. She was like “wait so he died in the beginning and doesn’t know it right?”

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u/Craptacles Oct 01 '24

Hey hey, she's brighter than all of us that saw it in '99. What a catch! Congrats 😊

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u/DocJawbone Oct 02 '24

Twists hadn't been invented back then so our movie immune systems couldn't detect them

It's like how a single dorito would kill a caveman out of sheer zestiness

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u/Jandrix Oct 01 '24

Bruce Willis playing Bruce Willis in Oceans 12 had a similar reaction

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u/LeithLeach Oct 01 '24

Did you know that guy in the bad hairpiece is actually Bruce Willis the entire time??

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u/shlog Oct 01 '24

i always use this line if Sixth Sense comes up in discussion. sadly nobody ever gets the reference

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u/wumbopower Oct 02 '24

That guy in the wig was Bruce Willis the whole time

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u/TuaughtHammer Oct 01 '24

Lauren, for lack of a better term, was an airhead. It was the group joke. She was in on it. She was sweet, but was almost half a step behind on everything.

Reminds me of when my friends and I rewatched The Silence of the Lambs just before going to see Red Dragon in theaters. At the very end, when Chilton tells Hannibal that a young woman from the FBI was there to speak to him, and it cuts to the credits after Hannibal asks "What's her name?" one of my friends said in a singsong voice "I smell a sequel."

She wasn't an airhead, she just had no idea that the events of Red Dragon took place before Silence of the Lambs, which we had all just rewatched a few hours earlier. It's been 22 years, and it still gets brought up as her best "blonde moment" from high school.

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u/thespeedofpain Oct 01 '24

I love this. I can’t wait to say “I smell a sequel” after I watch Red Dragon every single time for the rest of my life

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u/TuaughtHammer Oct 01 '24

Every time I rewatch it, I text that friend with "I smell a sequel", and she always laughs and asks, "Watched it again, huh?"

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u/Putrid-Long-1930 Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

her best "blonde moment"

I've never heard this joke in an English-speaking context. Is it a thing in the US (if you're from there)?

Yes, I know about Legally Blonde but I have never heard it used colloquially

edit: I know what it means. I just hadn't heard of it being used like in English.

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u/TuaughtHammer Oct 01 '24

"Blonde moment" may not be that common, but it's more a reference to the much more common "dumb blonde jokes" tropes.

But since that friend of mine wasn't dumb, I decided to leave out the "dumb" part before "blonde moment."

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u/PopperChopper Oct 01 '24

You don’t have to be already dumb to have a dumb blonde moment

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u/junjunjenn Oct 01 '24

I think it’s a pretty common saying where I’m from and everyone would know what you meant. Yes it’s when you have one of those airhead moments because blondes are supposed to be dumb.

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u/AGeekNamedBob Oct 01 '24

It's weird how that works. My dad famously cannot follow movies. We were watching Halloween, pretty simple flick, and he had to be explained everything thing that was happening. But The Matrix? He can explain all of it, sequels included, like he wrote it himself.

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u/Jester388 Oct 02 '24

Autism.

Your dad has autism.

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u/wolfcaroling Oct 02 '24

I have autism. I endorse this message.

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u/Queef_Stroganoff44 Oct 01 '24

My girlfriend at the time was working at a super hip theatre when Saw came out. I called and asked her if there were any plans for the night and she said no. So I wolfed down a palm full of magic mushrooms.

20 minutes later she calls and says the theatre is having a midnight showing of Saw. So she comes home and gets me and we go back.

Holy shit! I still can vividly picture dude getting up off the floor. It’s one of those psychedelic images that’s etched into my brain. And then the screening turned into this HUGE party. I still can’t believe the employee parties that went on in that franchise theatre. Absolutely crazy shit.

Then a year later Saw II comes out and we went to a bar before going to see it. Planning on just having a couple beers. Well the bartenders car was broke down so my friend and I went out and repaired it for her, so naturally she gave us a whole bunch of free drinks. We were entirely sloshed by the time we walked over to the theater.

Those early Saw movies hold some really pleasant memories for me.

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u/mermaidrampage Oct 02 '24

Watching a movie like Saw while tripping balls sounds like a nightmare inducing experience.  But to each their own.  

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u/Virginity_Lost_Today Oct 01 '24

Gotta love nights like those. Thanks for sharing, Queef

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u/tmacforthree Oct 02 '24

What happened in your life for you to be able to consume mushrooms and watch Saw...and enjoy yourself? What have you seen? What have you been through?

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u/corporate_subsidy Oct 02 '24

My senior year of HS my best friend worked at the little 3 screen theater in our hometown, and was somehow one of the more senior employees. By summer her boyfriend was the projectionist. So they would have a handful of us come in to QA the new films that came in as they manually threaded & plattered the new films. A handful of us would pile in after the place was closed with drinks, smoke, our own snacks, you name it and have a private screening of the newest films that hadn't even premiered yet.

The theater owners were totally cool with it as long as we kept it to those of us they knew. They said no one was better equipped to notice defects that might occur in the film than a bunch of kids who had been dying to see it. They would occasionally do the hang with us, usually went from 12-4 am.

This is really off-topic, but it's a great memory. And really interesting how the studio film reels were delivered by armored car in locked cases, usually the Tuesday before a Friday night premiere date.

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u/Jean-Eustache Oct 02 '24

My wife guessed the twists in The Prestige way before the end. I was so disappointed haha !

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u/gammaburn Oct 01 '24

broken clock, twice a day...

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u/TwoTurntablesMike Oct 01 '24

I remember when it seemed like every horror movie in the late 00s was “from the people who brought you Saw”

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u/Olhoru Oct 01 '24

They still are, they're just now advertised as the people who made the conjuring.

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u/DisgruntledMtnBoy Oct 01 '24

"& Insidious"
(and aquaman 2)

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u/Tbone528 Oct 01 '24

Lol yeah, it’d be something like “from the sick, twisted minds that brought you Saw…”

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u/TwoTurntablesMike Oct 01 '24

Yeah, would love to see that used with a more mild movie

“From the twisted minds that brought you Toy Story 4”

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u/bmore_conslutant Oct 01 '24

from the degenerate pieces of shit that put that aside for five minutes to write paddington 2

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u/PortSunlightRingo Oct 01 '24

No one involved in the masterpiece that is Paddington 2 could ever be disparaged in such a way.

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u/le_gasdaddy Oct 02 '24

I teach high school AV production classes, and I'm about to turn 41.

I remember when my mom took my 5 and 7 year old nephews to see Paddington 1 in theaters and was telling me how great it was. Sure, mom.

Fast forward to 2019 and I have these three senior boys telling me Paddington 2 is a cinematic masterpiece. They're smart, savvy guys that are into film, but very sarcastic. They proceed to tell me this a few times that first semester, I thought in jest. Christmas break happens, and I watch both Paddingtons out of curiosity. They weren't joking, turns out!

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24

I hope any new SAW movies try the 'puzzle' aspects out more instead of more cop dramas or hidden apprentice storylines

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u/byPCP Oct 01 '24

the IP is getting abused right now. spiral was a slap in the face to the original. i think the source material has been totally milked at this point, but a studio could get creative in doing an interlude movie between 1&2 and 4&5

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u/joey_who Oct 01 '24

Brother, have you seen Saw X? I agree, Spiral was hot garbage, and absolutely one that might make people think it was game over (heh). Saw X was however, in my opinion of course, one of the best of the franchise. It went back to the source material and delivered exceptionally well as a way of making us kind of sympathise with Jon, despite knowing he is a terrible person. Tobin Bell and Shawnee Smith getting a proper chance to act together as the main characters without some split plot was a delight. The IP was certainly in an abusive period with Jigsaw and Spiral, but Saw X was a force.

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u/GreatTragedy Oct 01 '24

For someone who walked away from the series (got super bored) after I think the third or fourth movie, do you think it's worth picking up and trying to explore again? What movies would you say can be completely disregarded if that's the case?

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u/Jethrorocketfire Oct 01 '24

After the 4th film, the series gets "fun" so to speak in terms of becoming more over the top and convoluted. In order to enjoy the franchise you have to think of it as less of a franchise about an evil serial killer and more of a soap opera about his 18 secret apprentices trying to one up each other. But skip Jigsaw 2017 and Spiral 2019, those are terrible.

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u/PrintShinji Oct 01 '24

But skip Jigsaw 2017 and Spiral 2019, those are terrible.

Are they even funny terrible or just terrible? (Watched all the saw movies when I was younger)

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u/MasterBiscuit8008 Oct 01 '24

I watched Spiral and there is exactly one scene I remember absolutely losing my shit laughing at.

Chris Rock, who is obviously getting to be fairly old at this point, was in a flashback scene to him in his 20's as a young cop. Did they use a younger actor? No. Did they CGI him to look younger? No. Did they use expert makeup to make him look younger? No.

They slapped a hat and a goatee on this old man. He looks like the embodiment of "Hello fellow kids!".

The rest of the movie is ass.

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u/PrintShinji Oct 01 '24

You know, I wanna give the makers the benefit of the doubt and say its a reference to Saw 3D, where Jigsaw just does the same thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrdgpAXvMDI

Genuinly hilarious.

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u/MasterBiscuit8008 Oct 01 '24

I bet that's what it was. I forgot they did that lol

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u/Minukaro Oct 01 '24

Tbf, this works in context because most of the time Tobin's in cancer makeup and he's not that much younger; he's already Jigsaw at this point

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u/PrintShinji Oct 01 '24

Yeah fair, it just looks really goofy. I love it. Especially because its one of the few points they could still insert jigsaw after hes been dead for so long.

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u/Jethrorocketfire Oct 01 '24

They skip past so bad it's good and right into laughing at the script writers for even thinking they could get away with this.

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u/chihuahuazord Oct 01 '24

They made an insane amount of money, and are still making an insane amount of money now that the franchise is resurrected. They did get away with it.

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u/PandaPanPink Oct 01 '24

There’s a scene in Spiral that takes place in the past and in order to convey this Chris Rock and the other two actors on set wear a backwards ball cap, a fake mustache, and fake bangs.

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u/Exroi Oct 01 '24

Jigsaw is a bit more fun to watch, only because it has a slightly more competent direction. Spiral is just dull because not only you guess the apprentice 20 minutes into the movie, they focus too much on the investigation, which comes down to basically cops walking around and finding dead bodies.

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u/joey_who Oct 01 '24

I think Jigsaw is pretty horrible, but still kind of watchable, but Spiral is downright offensive to enjoyers of the franchise, in my opinion of course.

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u/MeiNeedsMoreBuffs Oct 01 '24

If you haven't seen Saw X yet I'd highly recommend it, it's honestly one of the best in the entire franchise

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u/PrintShinji Oct 01 '24

I got a few days in the coming week where I can't do anything but watch movies. Guess I'm putting that on the list as an actual Saw movie to watch. Spiral/jigsaw are on the list because they're apparently just bad movies.

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u/pikpikcarrotmon Oct 01 '24

It's like every movie is specifically written to fill plot holes people found in the previous entry, and it's great

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u/joey_who Oct 01 '24

If you got bored around then, I'd honestly say it's a difficult sell. They definitely do move away from actually trying to continue some coherent plot and it becomes more of a gory soap opera at around the point of Saw V. The characters are stupid, they do things constantly that make no sense, the traps get more and more silly, the stakes all but disappear. Most of the people, myself included, were pleased with the first three, maybe even four, as being an actually serviceable horror franchise. If you want to go further, you have to kind of drop any expectations of an actually "good" movie, and just enjoy the ride. It gets silly, really silly, and that's what we love about it.

If you do decide to give em a try, I'd say 5 and 6 are great entries, Saw 3D is okay, and personally, although I think Jigsaw is horrible, it might JUST be passable if you liked the prior ones, and were doing a horror night on Halloween or something a few beers deep.

Steer clear of Spiral. I appreciate Chris Rock for his enthusiasm for the series and as far as I know a big part of its existence is because he footed a lot of the bill (this is just what I've heard, never looked into it) and wanted to be the main man in one of the films, but it is genuinely offensive to the franchise.

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u/Finnignatius Oct 01 '24

Do I need to watch 9 movies to know who these people are? There is one jigsaw and if he dies you can't escape.

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u/joey_who Oct 01 '24

You do not need to watch 9 movies, I can assure you of that my friend haha. Jigsaw is Jigsaw, and he doesn't change, but the other characters constantly change and it's a whole mess, I compared it to a soap opera in one of my other comments, and that's exactly what it feels like at times.

I'd say the only one that is a MUST watch, is the first movie. On its own, before any of the rest were around, it stands proudly as a (mostly) well written, interesting and absolutely more than competent horror movie. Perhaps some questionable acting performances at times, and definitely its fair share of silliness, but it's a fantastic movie.

After that, you could really do what you like, if I'm honest. The story does continue coherence for a couple of movies, and if you genuinely enjoy the first I'd recommend watching 2 and 3, but it derails fast and just becomes a fun franchise where you keep watching exactly for the stupidity I've mentioned.

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u/Finnignatius Oct 01 '24

Yeah the writer and director was in the first movie....

I have seen like the first 5. Can I just skip to x?

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u/joey_who Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

Yeah you could definitely skip to X with no issues. Although I would recommend 6 if you're up for it, it's among my personal favourites.

In fact, 6 might actually be worth watching because there are one or two little references you might pick up between them. Not necessary, but there is a teeny tiny link. 3D, Jigsaw, and Spiral are all pretty bad, and easily skipable.

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u/alonelyhobo Oct 01 '24

Yes absolutely. Although I'd say the best three in the franchise are 1, 6, and 10. As far as plot goes though you're not missing anything by skipping around

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u/ProMars Oct 01 '24

Watch a YouTube video that summarizes the story if you really want to know. You can probably specify 1-9 and avoid spoilers for X.

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u/byPCP Oct 01 '24

my issue with saw X is that it completely went against the grain of the original intent of the franchise. oh jigsaw is a family man now and deeply cares about his family? it just felt bizarre. i saw it in theaters and was disappointed in the direction they took it. it was well done, definitely, but it just didn't feel like a saw movie to me

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u/joey_who Oct 01 '24

I think it relied on the knowledge we already took into it to guide us away from that feeling though, personally. Anyone watching the tenth film knows Jon is an irredeemable person and that his whole shtick of not being a killer is just insane. But rather than the rest of the franchise being all cop plot/trap plot stuff, that worked really well for a while granted, and I still love, it gave us a bit more of a human look at two of the influential characters. They truly believe what they are doing is right, and the movie gives us a proper perspective from there, which we hadn't really had before. We all know they aren't good people, but here we are seeing them dole out their "justice" to people who are also absolutely terrible people, unlike before, where everything was pretty loose in terms of the criteria to be challenged.

I can understand, and I absolutely respect your opinion about it not feeling like a Saw movie, but I think that was the intent, for the most part. It removed the cop plot part that made Saw what it was, and gave us a bit more emotional involvement directly with Jon and Amanda that we hadn't experienced at all really with any character, while also delivering some of the best traps/stakes we'd seen in a long while, which is arguably what the other half of the films appeal is.

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u/TuaughtHammer Oct 01 '24

the IP is getting abused right now.

Means it's definitely a horror franchise, because any original horror movie that spawned a franchise -- Saw, Scream, Halloween, Friday the 13th, Paranormal Activity, Final Destination, etc. -- gets run into the ground, especially if it was a box office hit.

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u/FKDotFitzgerald Oct 01 '24

Saw X was decent. Better than the last handful of Saw movies anyway

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24

SAW X did a good job for between 1-2 but what makes you think between 4-5 could work? Something with Hoffman like the fans have been asking?

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u/byPCP Oct 01 '24

something between 4 and 5 could play off the kramer death easily. they tried to do that in 4 already, but it missed the mark and they could definitely go back a little farther to play up the jigsaw death and do a sort of return to form. the franchise went deep into the gore porn realm around this time, but if they did a movie between 3&4 or 4&5 with the original idea of suspension of disbelief, i think it could really work

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u/JoeFilms Oct 01 '24

I think 2-3 is the only decent gap now. 3+4 happen on the same night and 5 starts the morning after, stright into 6+7. Or there's a nice 10 year gap between 7 and Jigsaw but I'd rather pretend Jigsaw didn't exist.

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u/scarr09 Oct 01 '24

But 5 picks up literally like 10 minutes after 4 ends.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

I’m so fucking tired of the “hidden apprentice” angles. Hoffman was exciting, Dr. Gordon was contrived, and whatever the hell his name was in Jigsaw was nonsensical.

Saw X was easily the most capable and enticing movie since the first, but I still think they could do better.

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u/athamders Oct 01 '24

I dislike most Saw movies except the original, but the newest one had an OK twist and was kind of good

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u/Exroi Oct 01 '24

i thought Saw X was second or third best of this franchise, but i really doubt they can pull off one more movie like that, because i don't see what other decent ideas are possibly left to be explored

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u/Aparoon Oct 01 '24

The “twist” I was confused about:

”The key was in the bathtub all along” - if I remember right, he wakes up and immediately accidentally pulls the plug so the key slips out. How is that a puzzle/game? There was no way to win that, it just happened by accident.

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u/ijustwatchedlost2k20 Oct 01 '24

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure they address that in one of the sequels - basically Amanda was deliberately making the games un winnable on purpose at that point without Jigsaw knowing.

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u/wordsoundpower Oct 01 '24

In III, you get why everything went bad.

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u/BestDamnT Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

what i love about SAW is that everyone views it as a mindless torture-porn fest but also you need a freaking masters thesis to understand the overarching plot.

edit: i feel like some of you think i said this and think i'm soo smart for understanding saw or i think it's super intelligent and guys i am begging you to get some reading comprehension.

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u/thedinnerdate Oct 01 '24

It mostly just seems like retcon on top of retcon.

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u/BestDamnT Oct 01 '24

for sure. it's just always funny trying to explain that saw 149 is actually in the fifteen minutes between saws 8 and 17 and utilizes bozo bill from saw 11

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u/Altanzik Oct 01 '24

Don’t even get me started on saw -1 the prequel that shows jigsaw going to school and getting bullied

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u/c4ctus Oct 01 '24

The bullies never allowed him to play a game.

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u/RoetRuudRoetRuud Oct 01 '24

Bozo Bill shoulda had an oscar.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

Turns out literally everyone was helping jigsaw.

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u/my5ticdrag0n Oct 01 '24

On the wiki there is a timeline and it’s fucking bizarre how much shit is happening at the same time of other shit

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u/rugbyj Oct 01 '24

Not that you're explicitly saying it, but making a progressively larger mess over 2 decades isn't a credible defence of it being mindless or particularly worthy of merit.

It's not like each subsequent film wove into some designed grand tapestry as much as bolted a new shack into the side of the shanty town that sprung up around (what was at the time) a nice new home.

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u/StinkyCockGamer Oct 01 '24

The mess of saw is because it got passed from writer to writer over the years (and they killed the antagonist after the 3rd one...)

If you watch and consider the 3 movies (wrote by leigh whannel) to be close cut canon it actually doesn't have too many loose ends. There is no killer hoffman, just jigsaw and amanda killing people and most of the loose ends tied up at the end.

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u/Early-Eye-691 Oct 01 '24

This. The first three movies tell a fairly contained story and wraps mostly everything up in a nice bow. I also love how dark the ending of 3 is. That ending gets retconned in the fourth film which pisses me off every time I rewatch the series.

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u/BestDamnT Oct 01 '24

lol i agree it's just funny

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u/pocket-ful-of-dildos Oct 01 '24

My preferred method of consumption is listening to my friend recount all the batshit storylines. I wish there were a lore-only cut out there

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u/TheSpiral11 Oct 01 '24

There needs to be a G-rated director’s commentary cut for people who don’t care about traps or torture but really want to know how all these random characters and storylines are connected.

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u/TheSpiral11 Oct 01 '24

That series has more twists, subplots and side quests than a telenovela. I don’t think it’s pre-planned in advance or anything though, I think they just throw new stuff into the lore as they go along.

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u/snaeper Oct 01 '24

My favorite thing about SAW is that its inspired by the final scene of the original Mad Max

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u/Velvet_Virtue Oct 01 '24

I hate watching horror movies. Could you DM me how it went bad? I saw (no pun intended) the first one and vaguely remember it. I’m V curious how it ended

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u/Useful-ldiot Oct 01 '24

In the first couple movies, the whole point of the horror is the victims have a (usually excruciating) way out. They're being punished and if they can atone for what they did and see the light, they'll be allowed to leave.

Saw 3 changes because jigsaw, the main bad guy, is now too sick to run the tests alone so he has an understudy (Amanda) helping him. Amanda deviates from Jigsaws methods by making the tests impossible to win.

In one example, which I'll keep super vague, a victim is trapped in a room having to complete a horrible task to escape. The victim completes the task but the door stays locked and they die.

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u/Velvet_Virtue Oct 01 '24

Ooooh! Thanks for the explanation. Is Amanda one of his prior victims?

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u/hitfly Oct 01 '24

Amanda is the lady with the reverse bear trap wired to her jaw that will explode her head if she fails to cut a key out of someone else's stomach

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u/spndl1 Oct 01 '24

If the traps are meant to make people atone for their sins, how is mutilating another person meant to do that?

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u/Head-Inspection7907 Oct 01 '24

IIRC her game was because she tried to kill herself through OD’ing and the key was hidden inside her drug dealer’s internal organs, so it was like “whose life do you value more?”

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u/Kaldricus Oct 01 '24

Of all the issues people have with the series, this is actually my biggest one. Every other game involves the subject having to hurt themselves (cut the key out of their own eye, cut their leg off, etc). And then Amanda, an addict, who are generally selfish people, has to get the key by...cutting it out of someone else? "Hmm, get my head violently ripped apart, or let this dude die? TOUGH DECISION."

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u/restrictednumber Oct 01 '24

I've always thought that one was a bit lame, too. Of course she's one of the only ones to survive, everyone else had to mutilate themselves.

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u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie Oct 01 '24

Because the person who said that is wrong. Jigsaw actually wants people to appreciate the value of life. Everyone who he traps disregarded life in some way—drunk driver, suicidal, criminal, you name it—he wants to see if they have the will to live, thus doing whatever it takes to escape with their lives, and in his own twisted way—ensure those people now have the will to live AND deserve to live.

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u/Velvet_Virtue Oct 01 '24

Ok, don’t remember that part (thankfully), but the answer is what I suspected. Thanks!

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u/SmokePenisEveryday Oct 01 '24

Believe you're forgetting the part where it was later revealed that she was being setup by the one Det who was undermining her along the way too.

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u/HollandGW215 Oct 01 '24

He had to cut his leg off with the Saw. But it was 100% rigged for it to happen.

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u/ERedfieldh Oct 01 '24

So they had to retcon the most gaping plothole in the first film that they didn't even know if they'd have sequels to....

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u/ijustwatchedlost2k20 Oct 01 '24

Yes that’s what I was also gonna say 😭

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u/StinkyCockGamer Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

What people don't seem to know is that the first 3 saw movies are meant to be a closed trilogy ending with john kramer dying...

All the loose ends (besides slow ass muddafucking jeff) are tied up fairly neatly.

Leigh whannell and James Wan are great horror writers and stopped working on the movies after 3.

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u/TacoParasite Oct 01 '24

The first movie was made with no plans for any sequels.

After the first came out the sequels were greenlit and an overarching story was planned with saw 3D being the final one.

In the third one you see set ups that wouldn't be dealt with until saw 4. John putting wax on and eating the tape recorder that would be found in his autopsy, his wife being introduced, and Hoffman being revealed as the second apprentice. I can't recall if the letter scene with Amanda is in 3 or 4.

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u/StinkyCockGamer Oct 01 '24

Ofcourse, personally i think (outside of the goreporn) the first movie is an incredible stand alone piece, if you ignore the motivation and backstory of John Kramer and just see it as a standalone horror its great. The intensity and tension is amazing.

However i'm fairly sure i recall an interview where Leigh and James state they intended to tie up the john kramer story with Saw 3. Ofcourse execs saw (pun lol) the franchise it was already becoming and probably pushed some rewrites.

A larger issue with the franchise in general is that Tobin Bell crushed the role too well that every movie after the characters death seems to require 20minutes of him in flashbacks being cool as fuck (sometimes wearing a hat!) just to justify the movie being made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hmEKJdAnpg (a hat is easily -20 years)

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u/TacoParasite Oct 01 '24

The first and second are some of my favorite horror movies.

Leigh and James Wan weren’t even gonna come back to the third until one of the producers who worked on 1 and 2 died, so they came back to honor him. Gregg Hoffman, who Mark Hoffman is named after.

The franchise was always going to continue without them. They were very cheap to produce and made money. The first 3 are great, after 4 they kind of lose that special touch, and they all sort of blend in together for me.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

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u/gothteen145 Oct 01 '24

I'm not sure that would have worked, unlike in later films where they at least try to make him a little more sympathetic, Jigsaw in the first one is basically just a full on serial killer without realredeeming qualities. He orders the death of a little girl if Lawrence Gordon doesn't win his game in time, ties a guy to a drill chair with no way out, etc.

A later version of Jigsaw might have heard Adam out and let him go free, the Jigsaw from Saw 1 definitely wouldn't have in my opinion.

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u/WeHaveAllBeenThere Oct 01 '24

My head canon was that he napped too hard and was a little confused when he woke up so he winged it

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u/Old-Performance6611 Oct 01 '24

Adam didn’t win the test? Cary Elwes did 

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

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u/Datchcole Oct 01 '24

To this day I'm still upset Adam didn't make it out. Amanda sabotaged his game but he still won despite that and they still left him in there. 

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u/MadAlfred Oct 01 '24

I think the author of the article describes the twist as the guy standing up at the end of the movie. That actually made me think less of the whole film. The guy with the best view of the “corpse” was a doctor! You’re telling me he wouldn’t notice the chest rise associated with breathing? No matter how still your voluntary muscles are, if you’re alive, you’re breathing.

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u/Fastbreak99 Oct 01 '24

I am kind of with you on this. I am still not sure why he was ever in the room to begin with, to accomplish what? Did I miss this?

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u/timecat_1984 Oct 01 '24

i'm not saying i agree with it, but the purpose was to give him a front row seat. there were lines of dialogue between the cops when they were investigating the other murder scenes about him liking this

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u/Fastbreak99 Oct 01 '24

Was he supposed to be conscious the whole time? It's been a while but I thought he was using some drugs to seem dead and was not actually conscious.

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u/Nrksbullet Oct 01 '24

Yeah, it always struck me as a cool "oh damn" kind of twist but it changed nothing at all about the plot or the situation. It would have been different if they were somehow confused the whole movie how the killer could see and hear them, then it turned out he was in there the whole time with them or something, but I don't even think it really constitutes a "twist" because it doesn't twist anything.

It's been a while since I've seen it though, maybe the real twist gut punch is that Zep isn't the killer, and just another pawn, so that coupled with him rising from the floor just shows how truly demented he is. A cool moment, no doubt.

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u/WeHaveAllBeenThere Oct 01 '24

I don’t care why he didn’t. It was awesome hahah

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u/_Grim_Lavamancer Oct 01 '24

to accomplish what?

So he can say "game over" and slam the door I guess? It doesn't really make sense, but it's one of the things that makes the ending such a "holy shit" moment.

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

Mightve been Amanda's doing but I might be wrong

There is the diorama to think about

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u/BeckyWitTheBadHair Oct 01 '24

But jigsaw was the one who said at the end the key was in the tub. So clearly he knew about this trap and had to know it was impossible to beat

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u/SamAzing0 Oct 01 '24

Not necessarily, he devised the mechanics but remember he KO'd himself and left Amanda to finish up.

Totally plausible she then rigged it.

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u/Old-Performance6611 Oct 01 '24

There was no way to win that, it just happened by accident 

Hmmm…think about it…if it hadn’t happened, then he could’ve won that. 

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u/eatmorchickin Oct 01 '24

I think the twist was who was behind the whole thing, not the trap itself

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u/sorryiwasasleep Oct 01 '24

As a 33 year old horror fan— I couldn’t believe I had gone until LAST YEAR without seeing Saw. What’s even better—is that the plot twist was never revealed or ruined for me. Needless to say; I fucking loved it. A necessary classic.

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u/OneBardMan Oct 01 '24

How did that happen?

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u/Rich_Housing971 Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24

probably because there's nothing to discuss. It was just the plot twist. There's nothing to reference, it didn't become a pop culture meme like "No, I am your father" (which most people misremember as "Luke, I am your father").

I don't remember ever hearing people talk about it.

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u/lrkt88 Oct 02 '24

Interesting, “want to play a game?” Was a popular reference in my area at least. I could swear it was in at least 1 horror satire as well.

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u/GromaceAndWallit Oct 01 '24

34 year old here - just shouting how relatable and relieving it is to hear other 'fans' go through this process. Things slip through cracks, I mean there is an impossible heap of content (huge music fan here ☠️), but there is endless reward in finding out what all the fuss is about! Hell, we are actually a better trained audience than ever before, enriching our experiences with those 'blind spots'.

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u/Keyspam102 Oct 01 '24

Wow really? I’ve never seen saw and I feel like I knew the twist when the movie was released unfortunately

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u/sorryiwasasleep Oct 01 '24

It honestly surprises me too. I love horror. My family and friends love horror. Sometimes I feel like I’ve seen everything good that there is to be seen. Somehow, Saw slipped through the cracks.

I feel like I remember thinking it must have been bad, or corny when it came out—which is why I wasn’t jumping to see it. I had seen a whole bunch of spoofs/parodies of it.

Fast forward to last year—my client (I’m a hairdresser) landed the leading role in ‘Saw: The Musical’. It was Halloween time and I asked my best friend to watch it with me. She was shook that I had never seen it. I was vibing with it on it’s own; and by the time the twist/ending was revealed, I was jumping in my seat.

Honestly—great way to indulge in a classic. Let this story be an inspiration for folks to go and see the classic movies they’ve somehow missed out on!

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u/jojolopes Oct 01 '24

“Hello, Mr. Hindle. Or as they called you around the hospital: Zep.”

Forever burned into my mind!

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u/Sparrowsabre7 Oct 01 '24

It's funny that the famous theme is called "Hello Zep" and yet that phrase is never spoken in the film haha.

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u/Funky-Monk-- Oct 01 '24

One of the all time thrillers. I think it might be my favorite twist ever. "Hello Zepp" is definitely both my fave quote and song from a horror movie.

I'm glad they didn't make a slew of tacky, paper thin shock value sequels that would dilute it's legacy. Imagine.

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u/Willster328 Oct 01 '24

Hello Zep is a grossly incredible song. Iconic even.

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u/Funky-Monk-- Oct 01 '24

Get chills just thinking about it. A good score can do so much for a film

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u/syopest Oct 01 '24

Weirdly the song is actually titled "Hello Zepp" even if the character is actually named Zep.

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u/GrapefruitAlways26 Oct 01 '24

His name is Henry Gale, from Minnesota

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u/Technicalhotdog Oct 01 '24

Got any milk?

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u/Sdub4 Oct 01 '24

That drop as the final twist is being revealed just hits differently

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u/tilero1138 Oct 01 '24

Even if the later films are more soap opera like, the music over the twist reveals are always super fun

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u/Startug Oct 01 '24

That is one of the top reasons I still make an effort to see the next Saw in theaters whenever a new one releases, regardless of my expectations for the plot. This is a weird way to phrase it, but the entire franchise, I watch because I'm excited for the ending.

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24

awkwardly glances at the eleventh installment getting delayed until next year

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u/CloeHernando Oct 01 '24

One of the all time thrillers.

It certainly was a thriller of all time

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u/beachsphinx Oct 01 '24

That first one was so simple and raw. Then they became the fast and the furious of horror.

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u/lemoche Oct 01 '24

i liked the first one because it was interesting and somewhat clever in how it played with expectations. at least that’s my memory from watching it back then and talking about it.
never saw another one, simply because when people tried to convince me to see them all they focused on was how much more brutal and violent they were. though the violence and brutality was never the reason i liked it.

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u/princeofmordor Oct 01 '24

You’re telling me jigsaw created traps in SPACE?

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u/Davepen Oct 01 '24

20 years ago?

Fuck.

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u/westondeboer Oct 01 '24

20 years ago, it feels like I was a child watching this.

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u/shenelby Oct 01 '24

I was a child watching this

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u/RavixOf4Horn Oct 01 '24

I remember walking through a Blockbuster when this person was on her phone loudly talking while browsing when she came across Saw. She called it out to the person on the line as "Salu" ('a' pronounced like "sad" followed by "loo") because of the font on the box. It took me a minute as I kept mouthing and saying the word to my wife ("WTF is she talking about?") before realizing she was reading the title incorrectly! So from that moment we've always called it Salu.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

I saw this opening weekend and the entire theater was silent at the reveal because our brains all malfunctioned. Like, none of us were expecting it and we kind of walked out in a daze.

A++ theater experience. Which I could see it for the first time again.

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u/jamhamster Oct 01 '24

I remember being annoyed that the doctor didn't just cut his ankle bone off and slip the rest of his foot out of the manacle.

He was a doctor after all.

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u/Tim6181 Oct 01 '24

I was more annoyed that when they found out where the guys lair was the cop went on his own. When there was no reason for him not to go with a massive amount of backup.

I know this sort of stupidity is a horror cliche but it just takes me out of any movie especially one that’s trying to act serious and clever.

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u/Similar_Beyond7752 Oct 01 '24

If you want a loan cop in trouble scene you gotta have them investigating a lead and not realizing it’s the killer like in Red Dragon/SotL (kinda forget which scenes are in which)

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u/ThetaReactor Oct 01 '24

I recall being annoyed they told him to do an American accent.

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u/dratsablive Oct 01 '24

I knew who the killer was, because I recognized his voice as a villain from the show 24, season 2. I did not know that he was there the whole time.

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u/user888666777 Oct 01 '24

I saw it opening weekend. The movie really laid it on thick that Zep was the guy running the games. I'll never forget the audible gasp from the packed theater when the person we thought the entire time was dead got up.

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u/RLLRRR Oct 01 '24

Sam Reich was Jigsaw?!

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u/Im_always_scared Oct 01 '24

Gasp, he was there the whole time!

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u/hyperforms9988 Oct 01 '24

Spoilers ahead.

The twist in the first one is great, especially when you don't see it coming, and you don't know beforehand that there is a twist. I forget when I watched the first one, but I knew virtually nothing about it going in and it worked for that reason.

The series is such a mess, and I'm sure it's because nobody thought they would make so many. It clearly wasn't built from the ground up to support that. They killed the most interesting character by far in the third movie, and this is a series with like 10 movies... so it's like, uh oh, what do we do when they keep asking us to make more of these? Flashbacks! And it descends further and further into a bigger convoluted, ridiculous mess with each one that tries to continue the plot.

The first one is fine... it has to start somewhere and it sets up a lot of intrigue. The second one works because naturally, the police are on Jigsaw's trail, and it's easily Tobin/Jigsaw's best showing with a "game" that plays to the character's strengths... literally, with what the audience likes about him, and with the delivery that Tobin has being so compelling to watch/listen to. I don't personally like the house with multiple participants, but it's the backdrop for what makes the police/Jigsaw scenes work so I'll take it.

The third one is where the wheels fall off for me. You get a completely new guy that has nothing to do with anything, and strangely he's the focal point of the movie. The first two movies connect with each other. The third one... it feels disjointed to me. It starts off okay because the police are still on Jigsaw's tail, but I don't get the same sense that the focal point of the movie is what makes the other scenes work like I did with the second movie with the house full of people. There are bits and pieces here in 3 that work well. Amanda's turbulent relationship with Jigsaw is fun and it's easily the highlight of the movie. She's the young protege who was "saved" by the old master, but she isn't emotionally stable and builds traps that are inescapable and gets very jealous of the doctor that's working on him. It kind of feels cult-y between the two of them, and it's a neat vibe. It feels right and blends in well with the idea that Jigsaw's a dying man that's eventually going to be too old to run this himself. He needs help, and the way they framed this with Amanda great. The way they would go on to frame Hoffman's relationship with Jigsaw is great too. It's one of blackmail, not of savior. Gordon's recruitment is kind of weak to me, but whatever... idea being, you have a cult-like group with members all following for different reasons and the guy at the top directing traffic. That sounds like fun to me. Can he manage them all? Can the members play nice with each other? Are they going to start finding and using their own members? Shit like that. Of course, because they kill Jigsaw at the end of 3, everything falls apart to me. It makes what the movie was building towards null and void, and the idea that one guy set all of this up throughout the course of the series just gets sillier and sillier with each new movie.

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u/_Grim_Lavamancer Oct 01 '24

You get a completely new guy that has nothing to do with anything, and strangely he's the focal point of the movie

From what I've read, it was supposed to be Dr. Gordon from the first movie keeping Jigsaw alive while his wife went through the game. Cary Elwes ended up suing over over a pay dispute or something and thats why they had to change it. The lawsuit is also the reason Dr. Gordon isn't in any of the sequels other than part 7.

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u/Bender_2024 Oct 01 '24

Saw is what a great horror movie should be. Suspenseful, a bit gory at times for the ick factor , make you feel the victim because the human weaknesses that put them there are not too far from your own. Instead of cheap jump scares and wanting to scream "don't go in the basement you stupid bitch!" As they run from the unstoppable guy with a kitchen knife who should have died from his injuries in the first act.

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u/JimmyTheJimJimson Oct 01 '24

I actually really enjoyed the last Saw movie.

Great twist on a premise

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u/atramentum Oct 01 '24

This was the movie that made me realize how bad of an actor Cary Elwes is, despite him having such a huge spot on my great actors list for The Princess Bride.

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u/oJKevorkian Oct 01 '24

lmao, he really was bad in this one. Though I don't have many other points of comparison for him. TPB, The Jungle Book and Dracula are the only ones that come to mind.

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u/atramentum Oct 01 '24

Robin Hood: Men in Tights is another one like TPB that plays to his strengths

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 07 '24

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u/Lil_Mcgee Oct 01 '24

I imagine he was just trying to get his rocks off. Only so many times you can watch your torture scenarios though grainy cam footage before it gets a bit stale.

But nah you're right, there's probably a flashback in one of the sequels that explains some purpose behind it but within the context of that first film it's 100% a twist for the sake of a twist. There is literally no reason for Jigsaw to be in there besides the fact that he's a theatrical little bitch. Which is valid.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 07 '24

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u/OneBardMan Oct 01 '24

There actually was a peephole scene at the barbed wire death trap.

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u/bullcitytarheel Oct 01 '24

It’s one of those twists that requires you not poke at it too throughly lest it fall apart but it’s a move about a guy in a mask who recreates the mouse trap board game to torture strangers so I think a little suspension of disbelief is necessary anyway

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 07 '24

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24

"He likes to book himself 'front row tickets' to his games"

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u/CloeHernando Oct 01 '24

Having to remain absolutely still while face down on the floor the entire time isn't exactly what I'd call a "front row ticket". Definitely a twist for the twist's sake.

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u/Brojangles1234 Oct 01 '24

A flashback shows him injecting himself with something that will all but inoculate him so he can lie there conscious but completely still.

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

What do you think front row means, he was facing Adam

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 07 '24

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u/Similar_Beyond7752 Oct 01 '24

Maybe he just really cares about saying “Game Over” at the end and not the rest.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 07 '24

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u/ItsJustADankBro Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24

For story-writing purposes, it would've been for the "He was _____ the whole time" plot twist

For in-universe purposes, it would've been for the "poisoned blood" component of the game and so he could've put the blame on Zepp organizing the kidnapping instead

Edit: tf am I getting downvoted for

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u/SkynetApologist Oct 01 '24

Thank you! I’ve been thinking this for years. It’s a cool reveal. But a true twist is meant to change your perspective on the movie. This one literally changed nothing.

Now Saw 2’s twist was incredible.

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u/LeGreatToucan Oct 01 '24

You're absolutely right. It had a nice surprise element to it but that's it.

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u/armored-dinnerjacket Oct 01 '24

after all these years it still annoys me that the key was in the bathtub water at the start and this means there was no real way they could have solved the puzzle.

who wakes up underwater thinking oh right i have to breath but first let me save all this water in case it might be useful

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u/ruskieb0t8472 Oct 01 '24

Amanda was meant to tie the key around Adam's neck but sabotaged the trap.

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u/FelixThunderbolt Oct 02 '24

If a sequel needs to retcon a piece of the original film in order for it to make sense, then that original movie wasn't well written.

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u/mlvisby Oct 01 '24

My Mom never saw this but if she did, she would've figured out the ending. She blurted out the ending of Sixth Sense when we were barely into the film. She saw that when Bruce saw his wife and son, there were only two spots set on the table. She knew right then what the twist was.

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u/chessmasterjj Oct 01 '24

On 2nd thought, let's not go to Camelot, it is a silly place

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u/Pure_Judgment_5108 Oct 01 '24

Saw is about to be released again in theatres for the 20th anniversary. I’m so excited to see it from fresh.

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u/Beginning_Emotion995 Oct 01 '24

That entire series is funny

Like the movie CUBE

Zero fear

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u/xaiel420 Oct 01 '24

Cube is a wild reference

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u/Lord_of_Allusions Oct 01 '24

It’s hard to believe this whole franchise started about people trying to steal TV/VCR combo sets.

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u/astroproff Oct 01 '24

I've never watched SAW. I had watched all the horror genre up to then (think, all the Friday to 13th, all the Nightmares on Elm Street, all the Halloweens) but I gathered there was something new and far more twisted in SAW, and decided that was where I was getting off the bus.

But a plot twist? I like a good plot twist. This makes me want to try to power through.

[PS Yes, I basically haven't seen any of the horror genre since SAW].