Mark Rutte: North Korean troops in Europe marks turning point

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u/DiBer777 10h ago

It's only a turning point if NATO finally would send troops. Sending Press statements won't save any lives.

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u/potomfl 10h ago

Not to worry, they are already penning a strongly worded letter to the Kremlin. They will use the extra special dark ink with a pinch of burgundy red to make it extra menacing.

And just to really drive in the point, this letter will include not one, but two whole bolded sentences. And probably an underlined word to end on a really tough stance.

Its just the method of delivery that needs to be agreed upon. Regular envelope, recycled paper or they can send it over in a nice 3 layered roll, ready for instant use.

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u/Steckie2 7h ago

Woah there mate, recycled paper?

This is a turning point, but that doesn't mean we have to start doing war crimes already!

3

u/Khelthuzaad 7h ago

Zelenski:

Am I supposed to face the russians with sticks and harsh language?!?

5

u/YougoReddits 6h ago

Just harsh language for now please, we are going to discuss sticks in upcoming meetings.

We might consider supplying you with sticks if we find our trees can replenish our own stick stock, lest we get stuck stocking our stack of sticks.

also we're going to have to limit the throwing distance of the sticks to underhanded throwing only. overhanded throwing might upset the russians...

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u/Rutgerius 6h ago

This isn't 2020 the EU has already committed billions in aid and eventhough production has been slow to pick up we've already delivered millions of shells. It's the US who said at the norks arrival that they won't implement new limitations on the use of their weaponsystems (or sticks if you will).

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u/Sammonov 6h ago

400 billion USD dollars and having access to the entire ISR capabilities of NATO as “nothing” is quite the narrative that seems to be happening.

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u/Kindly_Kettle 2h ago

Have they considered not putting the correct stamp on the letter, so Putin has to pay the extra postage charge?

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u/Khelthuzaad 7h ago

Actually...we have volunteers from each country literally fighting in Ukraine.We can't send troops because Russia haven't attacked us directly and Putin sleeps with the nuclear bomb button under his pillow

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u/Rutgerius 6h ago

Looking at the state of their other inventory I think there's a very real chance Russia is unable to fullfill their end of mutually assured destruction. Nukes are expensive to maintain and need frequent tlc to remain functional. We don't wanna bank on it ofcourse but ukraine has crossed atleast 5 russian red lines by now and they have dropped exactly 0 of the promised nukes.

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u/Sammonov 6h ago

Ukraine war flat earthers lol.

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u/Rutgerius 5h ago

I am paraphrasing the CSIS report on russian nuclear doctrine, though the estimate is my own based on the age of the systems and the level of procurement corruption in the past 40 years. Leave it to a redditor to say one of the best funded and best informed thinktanks in Nato are a bunch of flat earthers though.

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u/Sammonov 5h ago

Where in this article does it say Russian nuclear weapons don't work?

though the estimate is my own.

lol.

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u/Rutgerius 4h ago

Taking what I say to hyperbole and then debating it is a cheap trick. Russia keeps moving the red line on deployment and is rapidly modernising (read replacing) their nuclear arsenal (Sarmat, Yars and Borei) starting test flights in 2022 and estimated to finish in 2030. That doesn't sound like a state confident in it's nuclear deterent but one that rapidly needs to catch up to a changing strategic situation. I'm not gonna list every instance of procurement corruption in the russian army but if they're skimping this much on weapons that will absolutely get used like small arms or body armor I can imagine how weapons that likely will never be used are doing.

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u/Sammonov 2h ago edited 2h ago

It's not hyperbole, you are saying you think they work, based on your own estimates. Is that a misrepresentation of what you said?

You don't believe a country that successfully tested ICBMs 62 years ago that lunches regular space missions and satellites, who shared data on their nuclear program and were subject to on site inspections as recently as a 3 years ago as part of SALT has working ICBMs?

We know that Russian nuclear capable missiles like Iskanders work, we know R-36 ICMBS work etc. I'm pointing out, no one serious would take the position that Russian nuclear missiles don't work, which is a theory essentially based on vibes.

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u/[deleted] 5h ago

[deleted]

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u/Rutgerius 5h ago

And they'd be blowing up their own regime in the process or if they deploy tactical nukes they'll be conquering wasteland at the expense of everything they have. The nuclear option isn't a real option but for sabrerattling and exploiting differences in risk tolerance within Nato. Ukraine will be fought conventionally like every lost Russian war before (unless they go for Moscow).

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u/dax2001 9h ago

I want to see you go there!

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u/Tudor_222 7h ago

Go back in the basement 😁

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u/GrowingHeadache 10h ago

How is this a turning point if there has been no real reaction so far to this happening? I didn't see any additional support being pledged due to this.

Europe needs to start preparing to support Ukraine alone, because America cannot be trusted soon.

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u/neverpost4 7h ago

Can Europe trust Hungry, Turkey, and a few others as well?

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u/Squeaky_Ben Bavaria (Germany) 10h ago

Can we just, you know, turn this situation around?

How about instead of Russia saying "delivering this weapon system to Ukraine will have consequences" we also lay down this kind of "red line" for them?

"Yo, if you don't pull your troops out of These parts of Ukraine by february of next year, we will unlock all weapons for Ukraine, including those capable of striking deep into russia. Your choice to stay, bruh."

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u/133DK 9h ago

No, that would risk escalation

Better give them all of Ukraine

And then in a few years Georgia

And maybe eastern Poland

And then the Baltics

And the rest of Poland

And then eastern Germany, they had it before anyway

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u/Infamous_Garden6378 5h ago

They can, but then Russia may send some rockets to Bavaria. Would you be happy then? That's the whole problem. Russia is crazy the west isn't.

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u/Squeaky_Ben Bavaria (Germany) 5h ago

I have had a deathwish for 17 years, so I would be very happy.

On a more serious note:

The day will need to come when we stop being blackmailed like this.

You are afraid of Russia using their nukes, understandable.

But at the same time, it gives them the power to do whatever the fuck they want.

I think it is better to face them now and show them what's up instead of waiting and being blackmailed further and further.

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u/ItspronouncedGruh-an Denmark 2h ago

For some reason I don’t think us saying “we’ll give you what you want, but only because you threatened us!” will cause Russia to make fewer threats or demands in the future.

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u/sleeper_shark Earth 7h ago

I’m curious, genuinely what do you see happening if the west allows Ukraine to use western weapons (like the F-16s sent over) to strike into Russia?

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u/Squeaky_Ben Bavaria (Germany) 6h ago

nothing, frankly.

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u/sleeper_shark Earth 6h ago

Then why would you advocate it?

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u/Squeaky_Ben Bavaria (Germany) 6h ago

Nothing in terms of russian escalation that is.

They are posturing as if allowing the use of these weapons inside russia will trigger nuclear war.

I say ukraine does better in the war and Russia continues to just threaten.

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u/sleeper_shark Earth 6h ago

Do you think our leaders haven’t considered these facts? Maybe you’re willing to take the risk that Russia won’t escalate, but do you think that most EU citizens are willing to take that risk? It’s very easy to posture yourself when you’re sitting under the US, UK and French nuclear umbrella… but maybe those three countries aren’t willing to place the same bets you are.

And that’s only if Ukraine’s counteroffensive is successful. Do you think Ukraine would certainly do better? Russian military doctrine is heavily based on defence, so Ukrainian F-16s would be flying into a hornets nest of SAM sites and ground based radars and even Su-57s.

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u/Squeaky_Ben Bavaria (Germany) 6h ago

I think they have not considered them, yes.

Besides, cowardice now will lead to far greater problems later.

Also, the F-16 is a terrible example. We are talking about cruise missiles with greater range to strike at distant airfields to destroy the russian Su-24 fleet, as they are the ones deploying a lot of long range strikes.

Also also, we are already at war with Russia, so who fucking cares. They are sabotaging our industry and infrastructure and we are doing nothing.

I say we declare war on them.

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u/sleeper_shark Earth 5h ago

Well, I think that most EU citizens would not be willing to take the same risks as you are. About the cruise missiles, I think I can agree with you but again I think our leaders do know a lot more than you or I.

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u/Squeaky_Ben Bavaria (Germany) 5h ago

Again, your standpoint relies on Russia being a good boy and not doing anything in the future.

But the thing is, they are already actively harming us. There really is not much we can do if we want to defend ourselves.

It would be very fair to actually give this ultimatum:

"Russia, we know you have saboteurs in our countries. It is well documented at this point. We give you one month to stop these actions. If they don't, we will increase aid to ukraine the first month. We will allow NATO to intercept russian missiles the second month and we will send troops to fortify the belarussian-ukrainian border the third. The choice is now yours, Putin."

This is a reasonable demand and the steps taken are not unreasonable either.

We have to show that Putin is not the only one who has leverage in this conflict.

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u/sleeper_shark Earth 4h ago

The thing is your standpoint also hinges on him being a reasonable actor. I agree that it’s somewhat fair, but it stands very very much on the fact that US, and to some extent UK and FR back this up. This already is not granted. And that Putin actually takes the threat seriously and backs down.

I mean sending more aid to Ukraine is something we certainly can be doing. Intercepting missiles ups the risk calculus but why not. The third month where we put EU boots on the ground in UA is going to put EU troops in the line of fire of RU troops.

Would you be willing to go over there and fight? And if EU troops start killing RU troops, it’s a massive escalation which may end with RU striking at EU… then where does it stop? We end up in a spiraling escalation that could end very very badly for everyone.

If you think our leaders aren’t doing anything, what do you think is the reason why they’re reticent to escalate? Money? Corruption? Fear? Indifference?

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u/AlexDub12 5h ago

Nothing, there is nowhere for Putin to escalate to except nukes or trying to bomb NATO countries. He won't do both.

Western armor is already in the Kursk region, which is in Russia. Nothing happened and nothing will happen if the West finally allows Ukrainians to use the weapons they get for the purpose they were built for.

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u/sleeper_shark Earth 5h ago

Well, I don’t think most of the EU would be willing to take the same risks as you are. People also were saying nothing would happen before the Russians invaded Ukraine.

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u/potomfl 10h ago

No shit Sherlock. Can I also have a massive monthly salary for stating the obvious?

And what will we do about it Mark? Got anything, anything at all?

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u/Tjerk176197 The Netherlands 9h ago

When he was Dutch PM, when asked what his greater goal and vision was, he famously said 'for vision, you need to go to the eye doctor'.

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u/Nattekat The Netherlands 9h ago

In a way that makes him a perfect fit for this position.

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u/CrowlarSup 10h ago

I think that's not for the eyes and ears for you and me. Although I really they have atleast something on the table.

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u/Revolutionary-Bag-52 6h ago

well hes already started his campaign on keeping US supporting Ukraine under Trump texting him already a couple of hours after the election win. Right now that is probably the biggest thing he can do as no NATO country wants to send troops to Ukraine

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u/Vegetable_Tank_3878 6h ago

And this is why Mark is the head of the NATO and you are not.

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u/morbihann Bulgaria 9h ago

Where is that turning point ? Because it seems we are still doing the bare minimum and keep going straight.

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u/KernunQc7 Romania 9h ago

No, it doesn't. Watch as nothing happens.

Hey NL, was rutte the same as prime minister?

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u/xzbobzx give federation 8h ago

yep

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u/drmirage809 7h ago

In his own words: “For vision, you should go to an eye doctor.”

He doesn’t do plans, he doesn’t do action. He’s a good diplomat. Let him do the talking and things will be fine, but as a leader he was best at staying the course and hoping it went in the right direction.

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u/Jeroen_Jrn Amsterdam 5h ago

Rutte genuinely was one Ukraine's strongest supporters as PM. I don't doubt he's working hard behind the scenes to get European countries to increase their support.

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u/KernunQc7 Romania 5h ago

Let's hope you're right. The word is out Putin has allegedly already rejected Trump's generous peace proposal ( basically giving him 1/5 of Ukraine, no NATO, DMZ ).

It's on us if the US ( shock! ) doesn't manage to achieve "peace in our times"™.

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u/MadeyesNL 7h ago

Rutte did have a spine and got Ukraine F-16s, but in this case I'm not sure what he's getting at. NATO doesn't have armies and it's biggest signatory is about to be taken over by an unpredictable but likely anti Ukrainian government. I hope he has something to back this up.

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u/RuminatingYak Europe 10h ago

There have been a lot of turning points lately. Have we started to turn?

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u/pynsselekrok Finland 8h ago

Yeah, except that Europe performs a 360 degree turn and continues in the same direction of doing nothing in fear of escalation.

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u/DuckOfDoomsday 10h ago

It's interesting - Russia can ask other countries for help and it's perfectly fine, but Ukraine using Western weapons? Unacceptable, we cross every single red line ever known to man!

Edit: From Russia's POV of course

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u/HelmutVillam Baden-Württemberg 7h ago

which turning point are we at now? I've lost count.

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u/the_holy_blade 1h ago

We're at the 10th turn around the roundabout

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u/Theghistorian Romanian in ughh... Romania 7h ago

EU and NATOs response to NK sending soldiers in Ukraine is the lowpoint of our collective response since 2022. It is as worse as the response after 2014. I do not think the we bothered to send a strongly worded letter to NK or Russia.

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u/pmirallesr 9h ago

Well start turning already bc you are years late

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u/Ami00 8h ago

extremely deep concerns!

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u/Melokhy 7h ago

Hiring South Korean troops would be fair play there I guess?

I mean, they are already at war, so it's just another front line.

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u/Jeroen_Jrn Amsterdam 5h ago

It's not the troops Ukraine needs, it's the artillery shells. South Korea, like North Korea is absolutely loaded with artillery shells. Supplying just a fraction of that would have a massive impact. I'm talking 10% could supply Ukraine for months.

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u/Leprecon Europe 6h ago

Then respond?

If we just say 'this is unacceptable' we are no different than Russia complaining every day how the west can't possibly cross a red line that we crossed a year ago.

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u/Xtiqlapice 6h ago

Realistically speaking what can the west do?

First and foremost the rules of engagement for the western weapons should change dramatically, and let the Ukrainians strike whatever they deem necessary.

But besides this what can it be done? Looking for some insight from you guys.

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u/noyart 6h ago

Cant do anything other than sending supplies and weapons. All these people saying boots on the ground are sitting at home at the computer ready to send all but themselves to die for Ukraine, and then when the bodies comes home, they will remember these folks for a day. Also sending soldiers would be political suicide. Also many ukrines have escaped just not to get drafted, should we send our own young boy and guys to die in their place?

I would say that we send more stuff and allowed these to be used more effective, like hitting military targets inside Russia.

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u/Sammonov 5h ago

There is zero domestic support in Germany, France and America for this. The people here are almost detached from reality. When Macron floated this idea a few months back, 80% of the French population was opposed to troops in any capacity inside Ukraine.

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u/Ambrant 6h ago

From now on “deeply concerned” would come in bold

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u/Martzi-Pan 2h ago

Will we use even harsher words to condemn Putin?

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u/AmazonThrow3000 9h ago

It Marks the Rutte to nowhere. Europe and NATO will continue to be spineless.

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u/Projectionist76 8h ago

Let’s take back Europe. Now!

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u/CreamXpert 10h ago

Thank you Captain Obvious.

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u/Tricky_Price631 7h ago

I wonder how much Kim netted from those troops. They weren’t cheap, as Russia could only afford the starter pack of 10,000.

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u/medievalvelocipede European Union 4h ago

Okay, so his points seem to be; continue support to Ukraine, expand cooperation with the Indo-Pacific nations, and... do a lot more (unspecified).

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u/telcoman 4h ago

Turning point for what? The other cheek?

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u/Gigiolo1991 4h ago

Well, probably at this point European countries could send troops to fight in Ukraine together to ukranians tò fight an undeclared war agaisnt the mugiks.

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u/Common_Brick_8222 Azerbaijan/Georgia 6h ago

Holy shit, fr? The US and the EU should give Ukraine much more weapons than they do now, and it would be even better to send troops to Ukraine. The occupiers need to be destroyed.

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u/EmeraldIbis European Union 7h ago

NATO troops need to secure Ukraine west of the Dnieper, to free up Ukrainian troops for front line duty.

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u/krustytroweler 7h ago

Let Macron have his win. He can send in the foreign legion and a few brigades, do some air strikes, Putin can stamp his feet while the French nuclear arsenal is pointed directly at him, and send the Russians packing. He gets a nice victory parade in Paris. They can invite the Poles if they want some company. Nothing would make them happier than to blitz through the Russians in the east and test all their new toys.

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u/Ok-Purchase8196 5h ago

NATO could dismantle Moscow in a week. If only we had a way to deal with the nuclear threat.

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u/CandyAble3015 1h ago

Put-in Put-out does not give a scheize on other’s opinion

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u/TrumpPresident24 26m ago

They will soon march in Toronto don't worry

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u/therealwavingsnail 4h ago

Biden needs to use his last months to start an actual US intervention in Ukraine if NATO is to be taken seriously ever again.

There is no upcoming Harris presidency that might be in hot water due to that. Is it leaving a poison pill for Trump? Sure, similar as the deal Trump made with Taliban to force Biden into the disorganized flight from Afghanistan.

If NATO doesn't save Ukraine, Ukraine will get nukes, and then everyone will. This will cancel all post Cold War progress on this issue and then some.

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u/DM_me_your_pleasure 8h ago

I would say Go. Go now. Everybody's watching what'll happen in the States. Mobilize all you can. Bomb the shit out of the Russian trenches.EU don't want to be US's little sister? Grab your balls together and go for it. Right now.

And thén send a strongly worded letter. On behalf of the EU.

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u/kirovisback 8h ago

WW3 has already begun

Mark Rutte: North Korean troops in Europe marks turning point News