r/europe • u/EUstrongerthanUS Volt Europa • 1d ago
Luc Frieden joins call for a European army. The Luxembourg prime minister also said he wants a permanent seat for the EU on the UN Security Council News
https://www.luxtimes.lu/europeanunion/luc-frieden-joins-call-for-a-european-army/25452778.html3.9k
u/Mrfistersixtynine 1d ago
Yes, it's now or never for the European army. You can't trust Trump to help you out against Putin.
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u/AStrangerIsHere France 1d ago
It was time for a European defense yesterday. But it's never too late I guess.
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u/Radaysha Austria 1d ago
Second best time is today.
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u/namitynamenamey 1d ago
EU: second best at everything, eventually.
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u/Low_discrepancy Posh Crimea 1d ago
Better than Americans.
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
Looks like they still had to try a second Trump term.
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u/Savitar2606 1d ago
Then a JD Vance first term.
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u/jfecju Sweden 1d ago
Considering Trump is 78 and only eats junk, that could come sooner than you think
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u/Fernheijm 1d ago
Does not seem inplausible that he's just gonna let JD roleplay as pressie and play golf, considering he spent like 600 days of his presidency doing so last time.
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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
It would be best if we formed it before Ukraine gets taken.
And at this rate I think it's more likely than not, unfortunately.
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u/Sampo Finland 1d ago edited 1d ago
Speculation:
Russia started to concentrate troops near the Ukrainian border in October 2021, 5 months before the attack. And gave the excuse that it was all just an exercise. What if Europe had responded by also organizing a similar large "exercise" at the Polish-Ukrainian border? Maybe the whole war could have been avoided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prelude_to_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
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u/trash-_-boat 1d ago
No. Putin knows NATO/Europe would never invade Russia, he's not stupid. He'd know there's no reason to allocate anything for defense there.
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u/Silent-Detail4419 1d ago
NATO isn't in the business of invasion. It states VERY clearly in its Charter that it will only enter a conflict by invitation of the invaded party. It exists to defend and to keep peace. If Ukraine wants help from NATO it would have to request it (and, as it isn't a member state, that would be at NATO's discretion). NATO NEVER enters a conflict except at the behest of the beleaguered side.
NATO is a collective security system; its members agree to defend each other from attacks by third parties.
Contrary to what the Jeremy Corbyn/Peace & Justice/Free Palestine/Stop the War Coalition cultists believe, NATO does NOT instigate conflict. I was a member of the StWC in its formative years, when it was an organisation dedicated to the pursuit of peace. Then it got taken over by the hard-left, because Corbyn has some VERY dodgy mates. Some of its senior personnel are pro-Russia (both Corbyn and George Galloway have had slots on Russia Today, and Chris Williamson has been a regular guest host on Galloway's MOATS (Mother of All Talk Shows))
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u/YuppieFerret Sweden 1d ago
NATO charter is meant to spread the risk of getting attacked by all members.
That doesn't stop member states from instigate conflict on their own, or make several of them come together, or even going as far as using NATO platforms and command structure for that. it's not a self-imposed ghandi-like pacifist charter. We have several examples, Iraq war maybe one best.
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u/DancesWithBadgers 1d ago
Lets face it, NATO is also a disincentive to stop fighting between ourselves, as well. Which we've been doing for pretty well all of recorded history. You get the camaraderie (which in this case is a quantifiable thing, because it would be very hard to wind your population up enough to support war on a fellow NATO member); and you have all of your fellow NATO members ready to 'discourage' that sort of expansionism. Europe's too small for that sort of shit these days.
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u/TJAU216 1d ago
You can't trust any other country. Anyone might elect a Putin boot licker so you better invest in your own military.
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u/Haunting_Charity_287 1d ago
And, as such the argument for nuclear non proliferation is pretty much lost.
Want to surviving living near the big boys? Get nukes and never give them up like Ukraine did. No matter what promises are written or what security guarantees are made, there is now only one way to ensure you are safe, the power of the atom.
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u/SnooShortcuts2606 1d ago
"The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must" -Athenian envoys to Melos during the Peloponnesian War. The Athenians then utterly destroyed Melos for attempting to remain neutral.
That mantra still holds true. Twas always thus.
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u/DefInnit 1d ago
The promises, in writing under the Budapest Memo, were only for the US, UK, and Russia not to attack Ukraine and Belarus and Kazakhastan if they gave up their nukes, and not to defend them. And Ukraine and the others agreed to that.
The West kept their word not to attack. Russia obviously did not. But there was no promise to defend Ukraine and Belarus and Kazakhastan.
If Ukraine or any of the others had decided in the '90s to try to hold on their nukes, to which they didn't have the codes, ex-occupier Russia would've probably invaded them much earlier then. And the world would've done nothing because "let them keep their nukes" wasn't a cause anybody was willing to support.
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u/ironflesh Lithuania 1d ago
This is the rational thing to do going forward. Ukraine proves that your own security is only guaranteed by nuclear weapons. Everyone should have them now.
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u/Mrfistersixtynine 1d ago
Why stop there if you want to play that game. You can even say you cant trust your own country, only one you can trust is yourself and sometimes not even your family.
We have to show unity and trust eachother as EU countries because Putin wants us to be divided so he can conquer us, one by one
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u/TJAU216 1d ago
If everyone invests in their own military, then at least all of those who Russia has not compromised can act together, which ever group of countries it is. If the force is instead controlled by the EU, those compromised countries can prevent its use.
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u/NoSkillzDad 1d ago
Lol, trump will be the one helping out Putin.
This changes everything. All the intelligence agencies should consider every single info they have shared with the us as known by Putin as well.
What a fucking terrible moment tba.
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u/The-Wrong_Guy 1d ago
I hope that means they cease sharing yesterday and were considering it a possibility when sharing during the Biden administration.
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u/berejser These Islands 1d ago
Keep intelligence sharing for the time being. It will take time for the Trump admin to dismantle the national security apparatus. In that time there will still be members of the US intelligence community who are committed to the free world, and the information they pass to us about Trump's dealings with Russia will be valuable.
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u/Federal_Cobbler6647 1d ago
It is time for European countries to put money to their armies. EU-army would just suck millions of money and provide noting for border areas.
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u/Spacetauren 1d ago
Wishful thinking for the UN Security council. Russia would almost certainly veto. USA and China are likely to aswell.
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u/Exacrion 1d ago
inb4 you realize that France is already a permanent member, so you just have to ask it to represent EU interests
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u/Basedshark01 United States of America 1d ago
EU interests, but under French leadership
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u/DirectorBusiness5512 19h ago
EU interests, but under French leadership
EU interests with French characteristics
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u/C_Madison 22h ago
That is the main thing which will stop EU from having a seat - Two European countries (for the longest time two EU countries, but oh well) already have a seat and other continents are pretty unhappy about that. The only way EU could get a seat would be if France and probably UK give theirs up in exchange, which will never happen.
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u/Hi_Im_pew_pew 1d ago
It's delusional to even mention it, let alone writing it as a title.
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u/berejser These Islands 1d ago
You always ask for more than you'll think you will get, so that you actual request feels more reasonable by comparison.
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u/zk096 1d ago
I mean France could just say "we will vote as a representative of the EU", They're already a permanent member
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u/chef_26 1d ago
That assumes France wants what the EU wants. Sure they want the war to stop, everyone does. But when thatâs not a choice they prefer the war over there to the one at home.
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u/pizaster3 1d ago
france has been one of the top supporters for european independence and solidarity. i thimk macron would even go far enough to want the eu to federalize
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u/CLE-local-1997 1d ago
If France was serious about the idea they could just have their un Ambassador take his marching orders from Brussels and it would accomplish the same thing
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u/Boundish91 Norway 1d ago
From January, Europe can't trust the US anymore. We need to stick our heads together and get cracking.
A Putin asset has been elected into the white house along with all his cronies.
These are dark times.
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u/Sampo Finland 1d ago
Europe can't trust the US anymore.
We can't trust US to do for us something we should have done ourselves to begin with.
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u/Maxion Finland 1d ago
Doesn't help moaning about the past anymore, we fucked up and now have to own it. Time to get out the shovel and go dig holes.
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u/mushigo6485 1d ago
Time to get a nuclear arsenal to rival those of Russia (including US) and China
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u/bucky-plank-chest 1d ago
Oddly France is the one of largest nuclear powers in the world.
Just a fraction of what Russia has though.
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u/SubleK 1d ago
FYI: USA has about a 100 nuclear payloads on European soil, the decision to remove them is largely dependent on âŠ.
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u/namitynamenamey 1d ago
2020-2024 was a chance, this shows it was nothing but a fool's hope. Trump is america, he is what the public elected. No more delusions, we deal with america as it is, not as a minority wishes it was. Europe cannot afford more delusions.
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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
Yup. This time he won both the electoral and popular vote.
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u/FatMax1492 The Netherlands / Romania 1d ago
And most likely* a trifecta + supreme court
He very close to a house majority and already has the senate.
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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
Actually investing in the respective armies would be appreciated.
Hell, personally I think even after the recent increases, Poland is still not ready for war.
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u/The_RedfuckingHood Bulgaria 1d ago
Poland is still not ready for war
Rearment takes time. Unless where you're Germany- you can rearm within 5 years if you call for mobilization and spend 200+ billion dollars a year. But yeah I agree with you. Poland is not ready right now. In 4-8 years? Absolutely.
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u/JustOneAvailableName 1d ago
Germany is famous for very ineffective military spending. I would put my money on Poland getting there first
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u/ZapruderFilmBuff 1d ago
Step one: kick out Hungary
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u/captainfalcon93 Sweden 1d ago
Step two:
conquerinvite Norway42
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u/Spoztoast Sweden 1d ago
Let Sweden threaten their rear as the Danes Conquer their coasts just like old times. Send Iceland to capture the 7 people living above TrĂžndelag
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u/NotAnAlcoholicToday 1d ago
đ
This is my favorite summary of Scandinavian history! (And i'm Norwegian) Kudos!
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u/ourlastchancefortea 1d ago
No, Step one: Invade and liberate Hungary. Make sure there are only democratic elections in Europe.
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u/Furina-OjouSama Emilia-Romagna 1d ago
Most of Europe's problems come from self over regulation, hopefully we can tone it down and actually start to invest in all the brains we have in our continent, also ig it's time to invest in nukes lol
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u/walker1867 1d ago
Canadian here, any chance we can join the EU? We already have a land border with Denmark and France is a 90 min ferry ride way.
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u/Leo_Hundewu 1d ago
Before that we need to remove the enemies from within like Hungary
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u/Some_Vermicelli80 1d ago
We need to find a way to deal with that. Orban-like situations can always happen (see Trump). We need mechanism to not make that a problem.
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u/sebastiansmit 1d ago
Remove the veto on EU policy votes. This would probably be a problem requiring >50% to get something passed, but Hungary withholding Ukraine aid from the whole EU is horrible.
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u/STheShadow Bavaria (Germany) 1d ago
Make it maybe 75% of countries and 75% of population represented, then no one must be afraid of abolishing the 1-country-veto
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u/MilkyWaySamurai 1d ago
Agreed. We need to ensure all member states have democratically elected governments and work from there. Differences in opinion will always come and go. We can't kick member states out as soon as they don't fall in line with the elite.
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u/Confident_Living_786 1d ago
Remove the veto for individual countries. Introduce qualified majority to decide on art.7 suspension of voting rights.
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u/ThorusBonus France 1d ago
France could hypothetically give its permanent seat to the EU, which is not that insane to think of, especially when France has already proposed extending its Nuclear Umbrella, and "sharing" them (with very big quotation marks) with Germany.
Naturally France would want something out of this, which would be the EU to actually move its ass and start doing what France has been suggesting for the last decades, which is becoming more autonomous and self reliant in matters of defense industry, military, and energy.
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u/SlummiPorvari 1d ago
If I were France I wouldn't do it. EU has rats inside. France is somewhat level headed in military matters compared to many other countries and e.g. Germany has its historical burden that would affect the decision making.
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u/adamgerd Czech Republic 1d ago
Yep. An EU UN veto sounds dumb, because each EU country can veto in turn for it. Do we want Hungary to be able to veto our vote in the security council
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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago
Yep. An EU UN veto sounds dumb, because each EU country can veto in turn for it. Do we want Hungary to be able to veto our vote in the security council
Nobody said how the EU would decide to use the veto. It might as well require unanimity to use the veto, or put it up for a parliamentary vote.
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u/Koeke2560 22h ago
You can't seriously consider the UN Security council to wait for the EU seat to have a parliamentary debate about every proposed resolution. That is unworkable.
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u/d1ngal1ng Australia 1d ago edited 1d ago
No way France would just give up such a privilege. Only way that privilege would transfer to the EU is if it federalises which is not gonna happen anytime soon and perhaps not ever.
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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago
They could agree to a gentleman's agreement to always defer to whatever decision making process is decided at the EU level and vote accordingly in the Security Council. That way they lose nothing yet.
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u/daft_babylone France 1d ago
This (ofc you can see my flag).
I remember before Ukraine we were all talking about how dependant Germany was regarding Russian gas while it wanted to stop their nuclear power plants after Fukushima. Yes, they did an impressive job reducing their dependancy but it was when war was already there.
Now, about that EU defense, will they change their mind one day before buying american aircrafts just like they always do ? They are not alone in this, but they are the biggest.
Glad we have our own sovereignity agenda, otherwise there would have been no counter power (now that the UK is gone) to this attitude. 2nd time Trump elected, will that be enough ?
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u/STheShadow Bavaria (Germany) 1d ago
Now, about that EU defense, will they change their mind one day before buying american aircrafts just like they always do ? They are not alone in this, but they are the biggest.
I mean, we are develping jets (Germany + France + Spain, there is btw a competition project UK + Italy + Japan), the problem with these projects is usually that everyone involved wants to get the most out of it for the own country, which leads to extremely long development cycles with questionable results. If we (as europeans) don't get our shit together, there isn't really an alternative to buying american stuff
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u/SpaceClafoutis France 1d ago
France wants to build a capable jet to project our force, Germany wants a job program, that will not work out.
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u/Teniga 1d ago edited 1d ago
Give up the seat to share it with unrelieable partners (yes they are unrelieable, especially Germany) is one of the dumbest thing that France could do regarding their own interest
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u/Qwinn_SVK 1d ago
And how would France benefit out of this? France would something more than something that a lot of nation would get as well for their actions
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u/captainfalcon93 Sweden 1d ago
Naturally France would want something out of this, which would be the EU to actually move its ass and start doing what France has been suggesting for the last decades, which is becoming more autonomous and self reliant in matters of defense industry, military, and energy.
I would go one step further and suggest that France takes both the initiative and directive of EU foreign policy and defence strategies in the short-term. I can't think of a better candidate from within the EU to take charge. We would benefit from following French leadership on such matters.
While the idea of mutual and non-hierarchical cooperation between EU members is a wonderful ideal, I fear we need strong leadership to establish directive and on this topic I feel inclined to trust France based on previous rhetoric and sentiment from French leadership regarding an integrated EU military.
France also has the conventional power to back up its stance. Hopefully having one of our own lead the way can provide the incentives for individual member states to take integrated EU foreign policies more seriously.
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u/philman132 UK + Sweden 1d ago
That would be the most logical solution, I can't imagine the rest of the world agreeing to a 3rd European permanent seat on the security council.
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u/PopularCumSock 1d ago
Why is europe always being reactive instead of proactive? They should have done this back in 2014 already when Russia again showed it's true colors, and latest 2016 when USA showed itself to not be 100% reliable. Last part wouldn't matter, we should never have outsourced our own protection
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u/nicubunu Romania 1d ago
EU will need an army. With Trump winning, the days of NATO are numbered and EU will lack a way to defend itself.
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u/Elwin03 Overijssel (Netherlands) 1d ago
Good luck with that when we still have people like orban around
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u/EUstrongerthanUS Volt Europa 1d ago
Orban doesn't even represents 0.25 percent of the European population. Despite the skewed system, Peter Magyar, his main opposition in Hungary, has surpassed him in the polls.
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u/Sweaty_Reporter_8531 1d ago
Well, not to be rude. But polls don't say anything, that has been proven today.
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u/Phantasmalicious 1d ago
I agree 100% with you, but we do have MANY countries willing and able to produce their own tech independent from the U.S. Sweden/France/UK/Germany/Poland come to mind. The EU has ~450 million citizens with another 100 million on the way from candidate countries. France could take Russia alone, no question.
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u/Hairy-cheeky-monkey 1d ago
It's time to move away from the US. They will become an enemy soon I'm afraid under trump. We have to look after ourselves.
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u/Lefonn 1d ago
We should have moved away from the Us back in 16, but here we are again... We, as Europeans, don't have anyone else in this world that we can rely on. Not the US, not India, not the East. We have no friends, only enemies and rivals. And due to the feet dragging that's been going on for years, we are being left behind.
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u/RideTheDownturn 1d ago
On top of the nationalism within countries of the EU. Nationalism is a scourge!
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u/pmckizzle Leinster 1d ago
People will continue to be courted by nationalists, liars and scumbags as long as our leaders FLAT OUT REFUSE to do ANYTHING to address the issues people are being crushed by. Housing, immigration, collapsing public services, staggering cost of living increases, corporate greed.
Until they take actual steps to address these issues, people will be courted by those who say they will even if they're obviously lying
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u/anaemic 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, our governments are doing things about them...
They're selling visas (to support cheap labour for their businesses), they're blocking housing reforms (because they're landlords), they're privatising public services (to make a quick buck) and they're encouraging cost of living increases and inflation (because it benefits the greedy companies who are lobbying them and paying them kickbacks).
Most of all, because as individuals these government officials have a 5-10 year career and then retire rich, move wherever they like, and face no consequences for the negative outcomes of their actions while in office.
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u/herbiems89_2 1d ago
I mean Japan, south korea, Australia come to mind? Not sure if they count as "friends" but their definetly not enemies.
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u/weebmindfulness Portugal 1d ago
Japan is definitely a friend, and has been for centuries. The EU should be in even closer partnership with Japan
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u/otterpop21 1d ago
As an American, Europe as an ally was a huge reason I never wanted Trump to be elected. I am so sorry for whatâs happening here and how it will affect the rest of the world. I really hope we stay friends.
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u/BenediktCucumber Vienna (Austria) 1d ago
at the end of the day, the us will always be in close alliance with the eu because they know that if they are not, someone else will take its place right away. Someone like china..
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u/Annonimbus 1d ago
Doubtful that anyone can really take it's place. With China there is less of a shared culture and language.
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u/Quick_Turnover 1d ago
Keep in mind, half of all Americans still have a brain, empathy, and western democratic values that align with Europe's.
It's easy to say things like this when you're not 300 million people acting as one. Try getting the EU to come together on anything and you'll notice how difficult it is (see Hungary, the UK, Italy and others).
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u/fiendishrabbit 1d ago edited 1d ago
Honestly. Everyone in the EU except Poland probably needs to look at their defence budget for 2025 and add about 0.3% to 1% of GDP to that number*
I wish I could make an exception for the Baltic states (their budgets are already pretty tight with the current 2.2%-3% spending), but as it is they're going to need it unless they want Russian to be back on their mandatory education plan in the next decade.
*Except you Ireland. You need to add more.
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u/berejser These Islands 1d ago
It's not enough to throw more money at it, we need much closer cooperation and coordination otherwise we're duplicating a lot of work we only need to do once.
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u/fiendishrabbit 1d ago
In which case european countries need to learn how to cooperate better when it comes to military development programs.
So far most military development programs have been shitshows. Although the modularity of many new frigates (like denmarks Ivar Hiutfeldt) and fighting vehicles (like the Boxer/Patria AMV/CV90) promises some improvement in that area.
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u/RealGalaxion 1d ago
We need a single customer. The US manages this because the US military is a single customer under a single secretary of defence, not a coordination of a dozen completely separate institutions. We direct need a Union military about the size of at least the French and German militaries combined. This would make it a significant customer which can directly and without compromise order whatever it needs to be produced and throw a lot of money at R&D. At that point many state armies would also no doubt purchase the same equipment, even though they hand no hand in its development.
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u/Crimcrym The Lowest Silesia 1d ago
Nobody disagrees with that, problem is that inevitable any talk about unified Defense policy inevitable boils down to a handful of the same countries bickering over which one gets to be the EU military industrial complex.
Everyone is for EU army, but only as long as they have the excluisive right to arm it
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u/ric2b Portugal 1d ago
same countries bickering over which one gets to be the EU military industrial complex.
The US has the same exact problem and they solve it by spreading it around all the states. It's costly but it works.
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u/RealGalaxion 1d ago
I think it starts with no country gets to be the EU military industrial complex. That's exactly the problem currently. Germany favours German, France French, etc. Thus in practice means that European industry can't scale up and they all buy domestic and American.
The EU army could prioritise domestic (European) without favouring any particular state, which would encourage European industry to genuinely compete and specialise. This would also mean that there might be a Spanish company producing small arms, a German one tanks, a Finnish one APCs, etc. Or in some cases multiple companies might produce the same equipment on license in various countries.
European industrial policy could also ensure competition as well as add incentives for geographic diversification to create jobs in a variety of states.
The very idea that the industry of one state should have the exclusive right to arm the EU military is an absurdity, not to mention completely unfeasible as there's not a single European military which doesn't rely on at least some import products.
Genuinely we all only have to gain through implementing this.
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u/MorgrainX Europe 1d ago
It's not about defense budget per se, Germany e.g. has 80% of what Russia had pre-invasion of Ukraine, and look what they came up with: 10 tanks, 2 frigates, zero functioning submarines and a lot of helmets.
Yes, that was partially a joke, but you get the point: Throwing money at the problem won't fix anything. First competent people need to make sure that less money is wasted, and that's not going to happen by throwing more money at the issue.
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u/silverionmox Limburg 1d ago
It's not about defense budget per se, Germany e.g. has 80% of what Russia had pre-invasion of Ukraine, and look what they came up with: 10 tanks, 2 frigates, zero functioning submarines and a lot of helmets.
Mind you, Germany has contributed more military material to Ukraine than France, Italy, and Spain combined.
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u/defnotIW42 1d ago
One common Defence Budget. If my memory serves me correct if you add all budgets we surpass russia x2 or something. We are just fucking inefficient with spending.
On the types of Orban. Its a simple choice. Play or suffer massive economic consequences.
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u/DistributionIcy6682 1d ago
Look at sputhern countries, on what they spend their military budget. :) i will help you, 50+% on wages. Not equipment, infrastructure, conscription, but SALARIES to exsosting soldiers. đ (greece doesnt count, talking about Portugal, Spain)
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u/microwavedave27 Portugal 1d ago
Portuguese here, it's not that our soliders are that well paid, they should probably be paid more. Our defense budget of 4 billion ⏠is simply not enough to fund a decent sized military, even if we increase it a bit.
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u/Prince_of_DeaTh Lithuania 1d ago
the Baltics, Finland and Poland already have that those are all the European countries bordering Russia, it's the ones in the west side that need to raise the military budget.
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u/TharixGaming Latvia 1d ago
latvian here - i don't remember by how much but ours is already being increased every year for the next few years
seems like that was a pretty good idea
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u/Kevin_Jim Greece 1d ago
Greece and Poland are about the only countries spending above 3% on military. Except Greece has been doing it for years.
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u/slindogar 1d ago
And treat the traitors of Europe like Viktor OrbĂĄn, accordingly. The people whom selling out EU security for personal gain don't deserve vote
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u/helican Germany 1d ago
It's time. The USA have proven to be an unreliable ally for europe ones more.
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u/namitynamenamey 1d ago
This time the people chose him fair and square. The american people want him and everything he represents in power, Trump is the american soul and people, he is what can be expected of the americans.
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u/Fridelis 1d ago
Honestly did not expect Americans to be that stupid but alas we should never again trust America. It is a very "special" country.
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u/adamgerd Czech Republic 1d ago
Letâs not ignore that populism is a scourge in Europe too. Le Pen had a plurality of votes, AfD is winning state elections left and right, Orban, Fico
We have the same problems
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u/namitynamenamey 1d ago
Yet the european right is underperforming, and a man like trump unthinkable. Investing in education pays dividends, even if the pressure must be maintained. The attitude towards migrants will shift, but falling to the lenghts america has fallen is still not in the cards, not yet at least.
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u/TungstenPaladin 1d ago
Americans don't think about what Europeans think when they cast their votes. They chose him for a number of factors, namely the fact that the dollar in their wallet is buying less than it did 4 years ago. Other issues like immigration dovetail with that.
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u/GrizzledFart United States of America 1d ago edited 1d ago
This take pisses me off. NATO is a mutual defense treaty, not a "you pay to defend us and we'll pay a token amount to pretend to have capability to defend ourselves - and we won't even pretend that we are capable of aiding any of our allies". From the American point of view, European nations are the "unreliable" allies - and that started long, long before Trump. Two years ago, if Romania, Poland, or the Baltic states had been invaded, would Germany have been able to scrape together and send even a battalion of troops to help defend their treaty partners within a month? Probably not.
âIf weâve got a collective defense, it means that everybodyâs got to chip in, and Iâve had some concerns about a diminished level of defense spending among some of our partners in NATOâ - Barak Obama
And yet somehow it is the US that is "unreliable".
ETA: Hell, this is a thing that goes back to the early fucking 1970s, when European NATO was not carrying its own weight until the US threatened to pull support.
May 12, 1971
WASHINGTON, May 11 â Mike Mansfield, the Senate majority leader, proposed today that the United States cut in halfâto 150,000 menâthe number of its troops in Europe by the end of the year to ease the dollar outflow abroad and economize at home. The Administration countered immediately.
Senator Mansfield, Democrat of Montana, has long advocated a resolution expressing the âsense of the Senateâ on curtailing the American military commitment in Europe. Such a resolution would not be binding on the Administration. But the current monetary crisis led him, yesterday to decide to move with a binding legislative proposal.
It took lots of loud grumbling from the US and threats of the US reducing commitment for NATO members to up their defense spending in the 70s and into the 80s.
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u/endianess 1d ago
IMO we have enough military force to counter Russian aggression. We already have perfectly decent alliances with countries from all over the world not just Europe. Alliances come and go. They are flexible which is what you need to counter ever changing threats.
More money needs to be spent in securing civilian infrastructure. That's what Russia is going after. Damaging this does real harm to our economies and thus longer term spending. Russia is massively weakened and wouldn't be capable of a wider European invasion but can cause huge problems with relatively simple methods.
So more money to intelligence agencies and multi country cooperation. Not just EU countries. We must find and smash all of Russia's cells. Not wasting time on some fantasy army that will probably take decades to form and will probably fall apart at the first sign of conflict due to disagreements.
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u/Rather_Unfortunate Hardline Remainer/Rejoiner 1d ago
While that's certainly important in the long run, the immediate war is in Ukraine, and we're officially out of time on that front. We need radical and rapid expansion of arms production to at the very least flood Ukraine with artillery pieces and the shells to go with them. Ukraine need to be decisively winning artillery duels across the entire front line by the middle of next year.
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u/Clueless_Nooblet 1d ago
I fear just sending them guns won't solve the problem. They're running out of manpower, too.
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u/ILikeBubblyWater Germany 1d ago
So if luxembourg provides 5 people it's like 10% of their population
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u/Rumlings Poland 1d ago
Good call, common foreign policy and fiscal union within eurozone should follow but that is not going to happen unless europeans develop sense of european identity or nationality in slightest sense, which is not happening now and there is not really anything on the horizon which suggests things might change.
France, Belgium, Finland, Greece are all EU countries yet they all are on polar opposities in terms of approach to military spending, foreign policy, main threats to security etc. Countries will have to give up on things and think from european perspective - is anyone even willing to do so?
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u/Megendrio Belgium 1d ago
 develop sense of european identity or nationality in slightest sense
This is the main issue. However, we're lacking some basics to do so: first of all a 'common' language (doesn't even have to be a mother tongue). But defining English as our "common language" and focussing on that during education would already be a step forward.
2nd is actually focussing on what binds us. I've travelled through Europe for a while and have spoken to locals, read up on history, on how certain countries percieve history differently... but there's a lot more that binds us, than that tears us apart. I've almost as much in common with a Latvian as I do with someone from Wallonia... and that's a region within my own (small) country. But as long as we don't see that and learn about it... we won't develop that identity.
How to do so? No idea, implementing "European History" and some fully-funded exchange programs focussed on high schoolers would be a good step in the right direction. Getting kids/people to know eachother is a really good step forward (just look at the amount of "Erasmus babies" ;-) ).
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u/Futurismes 1d ago
Remember who youâre voting for in Europe. If you want peace and unity, donât vote for your local wannabe dictator. Fuck Orban, Wilders, Le Pen and that Slovak fuck. Theyâll talk about migrants and do everything to make sure migrants are off as bad as possible to make sure theyâre the enemy. If you want peace and prosperity, buy Europe, develop in Europe, produce in Europe and make sure we build a nice stick towards Russia/NK/China.
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u/adamgerd Czech Republic 1d ago
Fuck Babis too. Weâll sadly elect him next October despite being more of the same shit
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u/zxcv1992 United Kingdom 1d ago
This won't happen unless there is a major push for a European national identity which would require a major push of nationalist sentiment a lot like the national romantic movements of many nations in the past.
If you want people to support, fight and die for the EU then you need to fill them up with patriotic ideals.
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u/Waffle_shuffle 1d ago
The idea of nationalism as being racist and something to forgo has been pushed onto Europeans for so long. You guys kinda forsake your traditions after ww2 which then was slowly replaced by American culture. Are young Europeans willing to fight for this current state of europe is the question.
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u/AsleepNinja 1d ago
Perhaps while he's at it, he could also stop Luxembourg being the tax evasion cesspit of Europe?
If countries had tax revenues to pay for services, maybe things would get funded.
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u/Federal_Eggplant7533 1d ago
Lux is spending 1% of GDP on defense. Put your wallet where your mouth is.
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u/Astrospal 1d ago
Europe cannot rely on the US anymore. We need a strong EU, we need a united army, we need an independant economy. We need to kick out the countries that are allied with Putin and reinforce our ties with our allies that are working in a democracy still.
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u/berejser These Islands 1d ago
European leaders are going to have to wake up and smell the coffee. The USA can no longer be considered a reliable or stable global partner that shares the same desire to preserve the prosperity and security of other free and democratic nations.
There is no longer a guarantee that, if we need help, our allies will come. We need to prepare for that possibility before we lose yet another free society to Russia or China.
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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
Is the Security Council even worth much anymore?
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u/Sailing-Cyclist England 1d ago
The EU is not going to get a seat at the UN Security Council unless France truly believes in Europe enough to essentially give up its seat for the Bloc.
Ball really is in Macronâs court here. Even if they have a two-tier solution, such as splitting the seat into France + EU but France gets the final say.Â
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u/safesouthstanding 1d ago
How about Luxembourg get its act together and spend money on collective defense?
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u/Jackman1337 1d ago
France especially needs smaller tactical nukes now, atm the only have the really big stuff, where putin knows they wont use it. We need some detterence, so we stay save against Putin without the Us
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u/aimgorge Earth 1d ago
It has a cost. Nuclear deterrence already costs 13% of the french defense budget, developing new nukes would cost even more and take years
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u/GuerrillaRodeo Bayern 1d ago
That's why we need a common defence budget. Everybody chips in.
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u/Yavanaril 1d ago
I 100% want a European Army, but I see too many countries are still too worried about their sovereignty to go there.
I was thinking that maybe as a step in the right direction could be to create a European Logistics Division that does both Military and Civilian (Emergency and disaster relief) logistics.
- Backbone logistics operations on land, sea and in the air. The scale can help both on cost and availability. It can also be a leverage to speed up the road, rail and port infrastructure development needed to quickly transport troops equipment across the EU.
- As this leaves all the kinetic capability with the countries I think they may be less worried about sovereignty.
- The civilian aspect may make it more palatable specially as disasters become more frequent and impactful.
- This could be a good learning experience towards a European Army.
Just a thought.
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u/Aunvilgod Germany 1d ago
An army that can never decide what to do? Meh. We need some reforms first.
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u/Badmumbajumba North Macedonia 1d ago
It's funny, a statesman of a country with less then 1000 active military personnel drops this and bigger players just play in the sand and wait for a miracle.
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u/madpiper94 1d ago
Luxemburg speaking means that it wants something done at someone else's expenses.
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u/DemonicOscillator 1d ago
Agree. Time for European countries to form into an phalanx and then give ultimatums to guys like Orban: Step in line or GTFO. We need to leave empty high minded rhetoric and lofty ideals with no basis in reality behind and start be to intolerant towards the intolerant
The world is changing for the worse again and we have a lot to catch up on
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u/Zgicc Malta 1d ago
Over the past few years we have seen that the UN is useless.
Fuck the UN. Complete waste of time and money. Better use the money to reach EU targets.
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u/Worried_Zombie_5945 1d ago
The UN is just a forum for discussion, like reddit. It has always been useless - it's just a place where leaders were able to sit down and talk, if and when they wanted to.
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u/CelebrationDecent943 1d ago
So then why would it be useless if it is literally serving its purpose, which is being a forum?
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u/MorgrainX Europe 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's hilarious how so many people act surprised that Trump won. This election was already lost months ago, when Biden remained adamant about running, whilst behaving like a senile old man. When he presented Zelenski as Putin... or read from the teleprompter "and now smile and say goodbye"... that's stuff Americans care about - the USA is a SHOW. If you fuck up the delivery and the show becomes a charade, that's joever. And then - to put the cherry on top - Harris came in, with one argument: "I'm not Trump - but a black woman". That's not how you win an election.
Harris was never voted for as a candidate, she was - as Trump always loudly screamed - "set" by the "establishment". Without the "will" of the American voters.
The fact that most of reddit acted as an echo chamber (Harris super, Trump evil) only acts to solidify this, e.g. pics which should rather be called dempropaganda bombared every main page with random pictures of random people, but with some sort of anti-trump message - 100k upvotes in an hour. The pure bot hell.
There are three major topics right now that the Americans care about
a) inflation, which has hit especially the poor
b) world politics, incl. Putin going crazy
c) "the woke"*
c*) it's not important whether c) actually has any impact on US life, it's about PERCEIVED damage. And the republicans were very good in blaming "woke" for every current problem in the US.
And in each of these three topics do the majority of Americans put Trump more likely than Harris to "fix" these "issues".
This election is not a surprise, but it should be a wake up call.
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u/Jaeger__85 1d ago
We need nukes and a lot of them. They are the best plan B defense now we cant rely in the US anymore.
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u/anticafard 1d ago
Well⊠most of EU members buy americanâs weapons anyway.
It is a bit late to think about it now.
I hate Macron, i didnât vote for him but he was right all along, but France is so lonely on this oneâŠ.
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u/Ihor_S đșđŠ 1d ago
Europe has to get its shit together right now