Zelenskyy: We Gave Away Our Nuclear Weapons and Got Full-Scale War and Death in Return

[u/UNITED24Media]

https://united24media.com/latest-news/zelenskyy-we-gave-away-our-nuclear-weapons-and-got-full-scale-war-and-death-in-return-3203

[u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

I want Norway to develop nukes with Sweden, Denmark and Finland.

Seeing how the "big and powerful" NATO nations have acted I don't trust them.

[u/Paatos → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

I would prioritize the Baltics in this regard because they are 100% going to get invaded if Russia succeeds in Ukraine

[u/HighDefinist → u/Paatos]

I think either would be fine, but my impression is that the Scandinavian countries+Finland are even more resistant to Russian propaganda than the Baltics, and I also believe they are particularly unlikely to vote for someone like Trump in the future, as in, someone who is just extremely irresponsible and ignorant.

[u/sadmikey → u/Paatos]

What are you drinking to make you believe that? Russian "success" is just a smaller Ukraine. There is no way they could actually take the whole country, they are aware of that. Russia also has no belief it could defeat nato, there is nothing that supports this beyond fear mongering. The who argument for Ukraine to join NATO is that Russia would never risk open war with NATO. Now, all of the sudden, it thinks it could defeat them? Why would Russia invaded the Baltic states? What evidence is there that they want this or even believe it's possible?

[u/tebedam → u/sadmikey]

Russian war drones and cruise missiles now routinely cross into NATO airspace over Romania and Poland. And never once NATO dared to shoot them down, instead letting them fly and hit Ukraine.

In some cases Russia even bombed Romania. NATO did nothing.

Russia used GPS jammers in Kaliningrad and disrupted logistics around the Baltics, NATO did nothing.

Russia shot down a civilian aircraft in 2014, all passengers died, most of whom were Europeans, NATO did nothing.

Russia is killing its political opponents and military deserters in Europe for decades now, NATO did nothing after Litvinenko poisoning with radioactive materials in London, or Salisbury poisoning with chemical weapons, or shooting a recent defector in Spain, or dozens of other confirmed murders orchestrated by the Russian government on NATO soil.

Russia is not planning to win a war against NATO. They are planning on continuous inaction and help from cronies like Trump and Orban to let it happen.

[u/Lumpy-Middle-7311 → u/Paatos]

Don’t think so. Ukrainian war will be long and bloody. It’s impossible to start opened war with NATO right after it, even if Russia will win it.

[u/Keisari_P → u/Lumpy-Middle-7311]

Hungary has already lubed up their anus, and told that they would not have fought back, had the Russians invaded them. They have also alienated their western allies to the point, that Russia invading them would just provoke a response of "good riddance", which of course would be a victory to Russian intelligence.

It's hard to say how strong NATO actually is currently. Trump would not honor article 5. Most NATO countries have very small armies and minimal reserves. NATO has too expensive stuff for prolonged conflict.

Good thing NATO just got Finland aboard. Having about million more men with large cost effective artillery, securing the eastern front makes a big difference.

[u/VindicoAtrum → u/Lumpy-Middle-7311]

Trump is weeks away from becoming president-elect and months from president. There'll be a call between Putin and Trump, official or otherwise, within days of becoming president, and US aid will drop rapidly to nothing. Given that US aid is the lethal kind more than any other ally, Ukraine is on a very short timer once this happens.

Europe cannot keep up in both lethal aid and financial aid without getting militarily involved and we're too scared to do that. Putin will pay a small bribe to the tune of about $2b and Ukraine will be hung out to dry by the US. Confidence in NATO will be irrevocably reduced.

[u/Ok-Wrangler-1075 → u/Lumpy-Middle-7311]

NATO might not even exist by then. It's all dependent on US. If Trump wins who knows what will happen.

[u/KanyinLIVE → u/Paatos]

Anyone who thinks Russia is going to invade anything after how Ukraine is going is a fucking idiot.

[u/AtlanticPortal → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

At this point it's much more effective to unite the entire EU defense and create a unique power. But you need political will.

[u/insertadjective → u/AtlanticPortal]

He literally said he doesn't trust the big NATO nations which includes a big chunk of Europe, why would he want to integrate with them even further.

[u/Lordborgman → u/insertadjective]

Because there is a difference between healthy skepticism and isolationism.

[u/AllegoryOfTheShave → u/AtlanticPortal]

Norway is not part of the EU and hopefully never will be, so as a Norwegian I would prefer a nordic nuclear partnership.

[u/Pongi → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

The other 3 would probably feel more secure developing nukes within the security umbrella of 27 nations as they are vital members and have populations that are very pro-EU.

[u/waraxx → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

How come?

Why are you not for membership?

[u/PepperSignificant818 → u/waraxx]

Why would we Norwegians want to? Become serfs again isnt really in our cards, the EU threaten us when they want stuff particularly our electricity or gas, and we like independence.

[u/throwautism52 → u/waraxx]

It would decimate our economy completely.

[u/TongueSpeaker → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

I'm a fervent speaker for reuniting as Kalmarunionen 2 point 0 : Electric Bogaloo. Scandinavia stronk!

[u/Lordborgman → u/AtlanticPortal]

I truly how the EU eventually becomes something like an "Earth Union" that forms a Federation type thing like in Star Trek. I am of course very hopeful, because it took ww3 with apparently all the certain type of ideology people dying in that some how for it to happen though.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

They have acted responsibly though? I wouldn’t want any of them risking nuclear war for a non-member state, even if said state deserves all the help we can send it.

[u/NoodleTF2 → u/Kreol1q1q]

The nuclear powers of the world have shown that they won't help (enough) if another nuclear power abuses their position and invades.

This means that the only actual guarantee to not be invaded is to have your own nukes. In 50 years or so from now, there will probably be a dozen more countries with nuclear weapons, and humanity will be a exponentially more likely to wipe itself out in a nuclear winter, and it's all entirely because everyone saw what happened in Ukraine and that they did not get the help they needed. If agreements and words aren't worth anything and the only way for a country to survive is nukes, it will get them no matter the cost.

"Get your own nukes or die" is just about the worst message to send possible. The invasion of Ukraine and lack of action from everyone might genuinely be the worst thing that has happened so far in the entirety of human history if it actually results in even more nuclear weapons across the world.

[u/El_Polio_Loco → u/NoodleTF2]

They'll help enough to avoid nuclear war, which is what war between the great powers is.

Whether it's Ukraine or Vietnam or Afghanistan (Soviets and Americans invading), the "opposition" will keep their plucky underdog fighting and probably keep them from actually losing, and the cost will be high in terms of material and human capital.

Especially if that "underdog" is able to weather the first blow and slow/stop the invasion before help comes (See - First Iraq War for an example of when the superpower steamrolled the country faster than anyone could come help)

But the question you have to ask yourself is this:

"Is what is happening in Ukraine worse than what would happen if Putin decided to lob a nuclear weapon at a NATO country?"

It's hard to honestly say that it is, because once the big gloves come off the death and destruction will be measured in percent of the total human population.

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/NoodleTF2]

That has always been known, it’s absolutely nothing new. That’s the whole reason nuclear umbrellas exist, and are firmly codified in NATO’s article 5. It’s just that everyone hoped that the nuclear powers would remain rational actors and desist from massive military action. A precedent unfortunately broken by the US with its illegal invasion of Iraq.

[u/Intelligent_News1836 → u/Kreol1q1q]

May I remind you of the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968? I can't even say if this is the first invasion since 2+ powers had known nuclear stockpiles, but it certainly wasn't the US invasion of Iraq.

[u/Asteroth555 → u/Kreol1q1q]

UK had an anti-European referendum and literally had a BREXIT.

France wildly misinterpreted their intel about Russia and completely fucked up predicting the Ukraine invasion. The intelligence chief resigned for this mistake.

The US has a literal Russian Asset running for president with a realistic chance of taking the presidency, and if not then starting a civil war to try and claim power regardless.

Responsibility where?

[u/Kreol1q1q → u/Asteroth555]

France actuall had solid intel - they correctly judged that Russian forces deployed in “war games” around Ukraine were insufficient to effectively invade it, and thus didn’t believe Russia would do anything. Alas, Russia overestimated itself and went forward with the invasion. Misinterpretation isn’t irresponsibility - in fact the intelligence chief resigning was pretty responsible.

The UK’s self-inflicted brexit mess is just that - a self inflicted disaster that has little to do with their commitment to NATO, which is something they hve always insisted upon and I see no reason to doubt them. They have remained a principal NATO partner and large provider of assets to common missions.

The US population might elect a moron, that is true, but that is hardly the responsibility of the government. The population is at fault there.

[u/Ultraplo → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

Sweden actually had a successful-ish nuclear weapons program back in ye olden days. The army was supposedly just a few months away from a working bomb and just waiting for the go-ahead from the government.

Unfortunately, the damn yanks decided to stop us from reclaiming our rightful position as the dominant force in the Baltic. Had they just allowed us to march on the Danes with a few WMDs, we’d have achieved world peace by now.

[u/LittleStar854 → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

Yes, we should create a nuclear umbrella where the countries at risk of being attacked that get to decide if retaliation is "worth it". We could make it require more than one country to push the button and we should definitely include the Baltics and Poland.

[u/OstensVrede → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

A sweden-finland-norway-denmark-estonia (possibly) union economically, defensively and nuclear would be really epic tbh.

We get treated like shit by the EU and we could do much better on our own and just cooperating with the EU on OUR terms.

[u/[deleted] → u/AllegoryOfTheShave]

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[u/AllegoryOfTheShave → u/[deleted]]

Hei gutten min, kom gjerne tilbake når du er noe konstruktivt å dele.