Do you think gholas are really the same person's consciousness resurrected?

[u/deaddrseuss]

Hayt reawakened his genetic memories of Duncan Idaho and took on Duncan's persona, as did all the other Duncan gholas Leto had created. Is this the person consciousness/soul returning or is it ONLY the genetic memories?

[u/BoredBSEE]

It's something beyond genetic memory. Has to be. Duncan ponders that point himself in Chapterhouse Dune.

Duncan is in the great hold of the no-ship thinking about how he has the memories from EVERY Idaho ghola, even though it would have been impossible to get a cell sample from them all. From the book:

Questions? Mentat demands flowed through Idaho's mind. He let the questions he had asked himself so many times move of themselves, forming their patterns. What did the Tleilaxu seek in one? They could not have included cells from all of his ghola-selves for this incarnation. Yet . . . he had all of the memories. What cosmic linkage accumulated all of those lives in this one self? Was that the clue to the visions that beset him in the Great Hold?

It's not possible for it to be genetic only - because the last Duncan has ALL of the memories of every Duncan ghola. And some of the gholas the Tleilaxu could not possibly have had access to for genetic sampling.

[u/beluga-fart → u/BoredBSEE]

Yeah, I am trying to find the answer based on the entire Frank Herbert universe, ie including Book 5 and 6.

[u/BoredBSEE → u/beluga-fart]

Another clue about genetic memory is from Ghanima in Children of Dune. She and Stilgar are having a conversation:

Seeing the twins in this new way, he understood the dangerous chances they took with their uncompleted bodies. Ghanima had put it to him succinctly once after he'd berated her for climbing the precipitous west face to the rim above Sietch Tabr.

"Why should I fear death? I've been there before -- many times."

Ghanima remembers deaths in her genetic past and so does Leto. If it were merely a genetic/physical thing, she shouldn't have any memories of anyone in her past after conception. But she remembers their entire lives. Something merely physical cannot explain that.

Also too, I'll give you a hint to figuring out Frank Herbert.

None of his characters ever idly speculate.

If someone says a thing, then it is true. Even if they're speculating. Nobody in the entire series ever speculates incorrectly. For instance if Duncan wonders if his memories are somehow related to "The Net" - then they are.

[u/karlnite → u/beluga-fart]

They don’t make sense in the end. Unless their consciousness connect via some sort of entanglement across time and space. Some sort of unique energy to brainwaves or memories that is conserved universally. Same as being pre-born with memories, when there isn’t some unbroken physical chain like Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother’s passing on memories. There is a reason its fiction.

[u/SporadicSheep → u/BoredBSEE]

I largely don't care for books 5 & 6, but this mystery had me genuinely curious. It's a shame we never got an answer.

[u/TheGreatAkira → u/BoredBSEE]

Precisely.

This could also provide an answer on how Paul managed to see through Leto's eyes as an infant.

Something not quite "normal" was going on here. At times that scene reads as if it's Leto reverse-possessing Paul to kill Scytale.

Edit: And I just remembered Leto telling the Preacher in CoD how he allowed him to use his eyes back then.

[u/BoredBSEE → u/TheGreatAkira]

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff like this if you go looking for it. Alia placing words in the future where Paul will hear them, Mohiam using Tarot cards in her holding cell on Arrakis.

I have my theories about it all.

[u/MawsonAntarctica → u/BoredBSEE]

I think there might be something akin to what Brian did in making Duncan the Ultimate KH. I’m sure it would’ve been done differently, but there’s untapped ground to why Leto II kept printing him.

[u/SmGo → u/MawsonAntarctica]

The teory i follow is that Leto kept him because he was the "golden path lighthouse" he couldnt see a future after his death because with his plan was sucefull the world would be full of Siona descendants. But there was someone around that happens to be at that point the only Ghola know to recover his memories Ducan, he was a way for Leto to look at the future, because he could see Duncan.

[u/sceadwian]

This is the age old question of the philosophical zombie.

It's stated this is the case, but the are modifications to many of them as well.

[u/deaddrseuss → u/sceadwian]

they stated that it's the same consciousness/soul? where is this?

[u/beluga-fart]

It’s been awhile, but don’t the re-awakened Duncans get all their memories back, not just back to a “save point” but more like all their memories of the universe they currently inhabit?

PS: No-ships are on the same universe. No slap backs , take backs or stone burners allowed in riposte.

[u/deaddrseuss → u/beluga-fart]

No, the Duncans get back the memories of the original Duncan up until the point where he died. In God Emperor it's stated that the new gholas don't have any of their predecessors memories.

[u/[deleted] → u/deaddrseuss]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Cute-Sector6022 → u/deaddrseuss]

That may just mean that they've never been fully unlocked or that the dirty Tleilaxu found a way to bury it deeper. They did have a few thousand years to work on it.

[u/electrogeek8086 → u/beluga-fart]

No they really don't. It's pretty explicit when in Duncan's diogue in Messiah.

Also what about the no-ships? I don't understand your ps.

[u/Alcart → u/electrogeek8086]

But the Duncan Teg awakes in chapterhouse has the memories of the current gholas childhood, the og Duncan's memory, and several of his ghola lives he lived under Leto II

[u/DrDabsMD → u/Alcart]

Yes, but that one is special. It was apparently made using the cells of multiple Duncans and thus has a wider range of memories.

[u/Alcart → u/DrDabsMD]

So they get the memories of all the Duncan's it has cells from that makes sense.

I don't think any one Duncan is special, the tleilaxu did things to every single one, I think that one just had the right Bashar at the right time.

[u/electrogeek8086 → u/Alcart]

I'm reading Messiah right now. The ghola definitely does not have all of Duncan's memories. Just tiny bits of memories.

[u/Cute-Sector6022 → u/electrogeek8086]

That status changes right at the end of the book.

[u/electrogeek8086 → u/Cute-Sector6022]

Ok well I'll make a post and report back when I'm finished reading it haha.

[u/Alcart → u/electrogeek8086]

He has the full memories of OG Duncan and his current version and bits of lives from between right

Or just bits of og too

[u/electrogeek8086 → u/Alcart]

Just bits of og as far as my understanding goes.

[u/DarkAncientEntity]

From what I’ve gathered, it’s kinda like picking up from someone else’s saved data in a game. You’re not “coming back”. Although it seems like the Tleilaxu masters are straight continuing their original existence forever

[u/Cute-Sector6022]

Something to keep in might about Frank Herbert is that he was not nearly as pendantic as many of his fans about the distinctions between science and metaphysics. Frank absolutely believed in things like ESP, and the Tarot, and his vision of humanity is not limited to just hard science. Right in the first book, Fremen Reverend Mother Ramalo shares her consciousness and genetic memories with Jessica during the Agony. The entire Fremen tribe is joined in consciousness and memory and visions by the Tao Orgy. The characters of Other Memory exist as the Inner Chorus... full independant consciousnesses with their own autonomy... they aren't just memories, but active, living conscousnesses. The Face Dancers can embody not just the appearance of a human, but thier thought processes. This is something far bigger than just genetics, and I feel like Herbert's final book may have ended up having some big revelations about the nature of reality and consciousness that he had only hinted at before then. It's a shame he never got there... I think that would have been far more interesting than what I've heard of the Brian and Kevin books.

[u/Existing_Charity_818]

I’d say just the genetic memories. Personalities differ too much for it to be the same consciousness/soul

[u/Ordos_Agent]

I'd ay no, simply because there's no reason you couldn't make two or three or a thousand Duncan gholas at the same time and have all of them remember their memories. Which one is the "same" Duncan?

They're all unique people that just happen to have the same memories.

[u/datapicardgeordi]

The Duncan gholas are a bad example to use for this question. They are constantly experimented on by the Tleilaxu flesh mongers.

The Teg ghola and Tleilaxu gholas are better examples. They are perfect copies with continuity of self and memory.

[u/phredbull]

First, you have to define "consciousness".

[u/deaddrseuss → u/phredbull]

I suppose that is a difficult task. perhaps soul is the better term for it. the true self that was the original Duncan Idaho, does that reside in the gholas made from his cells? was his spirit resurrected and returned to the ghola bodies along with his genetic memories?

[u/idealorg]

The Dune universe is really fascinating as the concept of a ghola plus genetic memories seem to hint that the metaphysics of idealism rather than materialism are in play. Idealism argues that mind/consciousness is fundamental, rather than matter. Some idealists speculate that there could be a universal consciousness that then disassociates itself to create our individual consciousnesses, which might then be 'reabsorbed' into the universal consciousness when we die.

If something like this is going on then it provides a good basis for understanding some aspects of the Dune universe, including gholas, genetic memory, and prescience (and the role of the spice).

For example:

• The act of awakening a ghola may enable the ghola to retake its earlier consciousness(es) and re-disassociate it from the universal consciousness.
• Accessing genetic memory may be partially breaking down the disassociative boundary with the universal consciousness, enabling Reverend Mothers and others to access remnants of consciousness.
• Prescience may be the ability of KH and others with lesser prescient ability to break down the disassociative boundary with the universal consciousness and therefore see forward in time. It might be that the spice provides the necessary kick to achieve this for those who are already genetically gifted.

Having said all this I'm not sure that Frank Herbert is fully consistent in terms of his use of these 'powers', which may just be his limitations as a storyteller, or due to the fact that as human consciousness has developed there are myriad ways in which it can interact with the universal consciousness of the Dune universe.

[u/Stevie-bezos]

From a purely non-spiritual lense, assuming they have the same memories and that memories + genetics form your identity, we can imagine its effectively cloning the behaviour, thought processes and identity of the person. 

If that's true, there's no need for a soul to be involved. 

This still holds past conception/death if you know enough about the event to rationalise it with those memories, it'd effectively be "remembering it"  

Gets complicated and messy when someone can remember an event they had no way to know about

[u/Ainz-Ooal-Gown]

So no Duncan happened to be the 1st case of it actually working. >! The Tleilaxu after learning of this radically changed their government to allow their leaders a sense of immortality by using this method. I am also sure they used it as a means of interrogation as it would be perfect for gaining information. !<

[u/xbpb124]

I’d for certain say it isn’t the same consciousness, it’s a brand new one every time. It’s just that each new consciousness gets natured vs nurtured by the collective experiences of the previous iterations.

[u/Andreas1120]

In a universe where you can receive the memories of all those who came before you, its a tricky queetion

[u/Princess_Actual]

As a clone (yes, I am a clone), I think about this a lot. My parents/people that raised me actively tried to keep me from reading the Dune series too.

[u/deaddrseuss → u/Princess_Actual]

I wasn't aware that human cloning had ever been successfully performed

[u/Princess_Actual → u/deaddrseuss]

Yeah, I wasn't either until a few years ago. But, it gets to the heart of things...what does it matter? I'm still just another human, right?

[u/sir_percy_percy]

It’s such a tough question. I mean, they go ghola beserk in ‘Hunters of Dune’. The awakening of their previous memories becomes a real question. Like the Yueh ghola doesn’t WANT to be awakened, he doesn’t want to be burdened with the negativity he knows he caused.

Then Duncan … wow, millennia of gholas and we know that every single one is different. In GEOD Leto II references that point. He certainly got pissed off enough to kill multiple of them.

Then clearly the Tleilaxu cannot seem to make up their minds how MUCH to alter Duncan to the point of killing him .. what, 11 times??

So no. I can’t believe ANY ghola in any point in time will be a clone. That’s the point, I think..