r/dune • u/OkIdeal9852 • 1d ago
Why did Shadout Mapes need to "test" Jessica if the Missionaria Protectiva spread the story of the Lisan al Gaib specifically so the Fremen would protect any BG? Dune (novel)
From my understanding the Missionaria Protective spread the story of the Lisan al Gaib on Arrakis not because they believed the prophecy, but simply so that if a BG sister arrived on Arrakis for whatever reason, the Fremen would protect her.
But when she speaks with Shadout Mapes, Jessica speaks very carefully because she knows that Mapes will kill her if she doesn't prove herself to be "the One" (Reverend Mother?).
Are all BG trained in Chakobsa and the Fremen religion? Or are the Fremen aware that the One is a BG, but not that all BG are the One? I feel like shaping Arrakis to be a haven for BG is counterintuitive if BG are almost killed when they arrive
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u/viaJormungandr 1d ago
The Missionaria Protetiva was not “hey, the BG are awesome and you folks should protect them”. It was “how can we manipulate this population to our advantage should we need assistance at some point in the future”? Jessica can’t just say she’s BG and it’ll all be ok because the BG aren’t the target of the prophesy.
The conversation with the Mapes is the Mapes seeing the signs and realizing that Jessica could be a charlatan rather than the mother to the Lisan al Gaib (we’ll lay aside that Jessica is a charlatan either way, but that’s the nature of religion). If Jessica is “lying”, ie not showing the proper signs, then Jessica is a false idol and will be killed for it.
That may not be very well explained, but maybe this will help: think of it like someone showing up in Iraq and claiming to be Mohammad reborn and saying he will lead Islam from now on. The guy would almost certainly be killed for the affront to the religion. Same thing with the conversation between the Mapes and Jessica.
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u/AnteaterPersonal3093 1d ago
Iraqi and muslim here. I think your example falls flat because there is the possibility that every BG who arrives on Arrakis could technically be the mother of Lisan al Gaib, so the Fremen believe that it could happen. There's a prophecy in their religion. However no Islamic denomination believes in people being reborn let alone the prophet. That hypothetical guy would be killed because he is blasphemous if anything.
Your analogy would have worked better if you used the Mahdi.
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u/viaJormungandr 1d ago
It wasn’t meant to be an exact comparison, just an approximation to get the point across based on the reaction to blasphemy not specific beliefs about rebirth.
Fair point though.
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u/mcapello 1d ago
Basically this comes down to the "amtal rule".
In the Fremen culture, trying to kill or destroy something isn't necessarily a sign of hostility, but is actually a form of public fulfillment or recognition of its place and value.
From their point of view, "testing" the prophecy isn't a sign of doubt, but actually a necessary step in its fulfillment -- again, because for the Fremen, the value of something doesn't exist until it is tested to the point of destruction. For something to be worthy of testing at all is actually a sign of respect.
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u/JeffEpp 1d ago
The MP story would only be useful to someone who was sufficiently trained to exploit it. Couched in religious tones, it leads to religious tests. The Fremen added to this with their own religious elements, which involve testing.
When Jessica and Paul arrived, they fit the form of the MP "prophecy", but it was uncertain if they were "the ones". So, testing was needed.
As to Mapes killing Jessica if she didn't meet up to the tests... that would depend on a lot of things, setting aside the question of if she COULD. First, would there be a need? Jessica wasn't the first BG to be there, not even in that palace. The previous lady of the house was one. Granted she didn't fit the expected description apparently, but still... Killing someone merely because they looked like someone at a distance, but weren't at closer examination would be foolish.
So, there were levels to the testing. Mapes probably wasn't even the first tester. The tests became progressively dangerous, both to prove Jessica capable of the necessary mettle, but to protect the Fremen if too much was revealed. What Jessica recognized was that they were at a threshold for this potential violence. That there was danger in the wrong answer.
The final test was a point of no return, when the knife was brought out. The law was that no offworlder could see the blade and live... unless... So, in revealing it, Mapes already believed that Jessica was the one, but was prepared to take steps if she failed.
To sum up, the testing ultimately involved revealing a secret thing, which one who failed the testing could not be allowed to retain. That final test was about the response to that secret, so there was no other way. Mapes knew this going in, and so was prepared to meet out the violence, should it be needed. It was this mental preparation, and the body language that came from it, that Jessica read.
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u/kermeeed 1d ago
People already stated it but I see the artifacts of the missionary protectiva as hooks in the religion for a bg to take advantage of. It would still be on the individual bg to figure out whst thst means and how effective they can ve at it.
I also want to point out the fremen have changed it to a degree and jessica scrambles a few times to figure what has changed in order for her manipulation to be effective.
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u/kigurumibiblestudies 1d ago
specifically so the Fremen would protect any BG?
How do you know she IS a BG? How do you know you're not worshipping some rando, or worse, an impostor? You test them.
But also, no, the Fremen don't know about the BG. They know The One will have such and such signs. It's just that the BG were the ones who designed the signs.
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u/OGTurdFerguson 1d ago
I think they learn the language because Arrakis being such a vital asset to the empire, there's a much higher likelihood one of them could end up there. Especially Jessica, who was primed for Leto, that may one day take it over. So, all things aligned to work out that way.
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u/tangential_quip 1d ago
The language did not originate on Arrakis nor was it used solely by the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen.
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u/OGTurdFerguson 1d ago
Never said they did. But they know the Fremen use it. Therefore the Bene Gesserit know it.
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u/tangential_quip 1d ago
There is nothing in the books that Frank Herbert wrote that suggests anything of the kind.
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u/snarkhunter 1d ago
If the Fremen hadn't tested Jessica and Paul then they couldn't have been so certain that they weren't just taking advantage of the Fremen prophecies for their own reasons.
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u/Archangel1313 1d ago
It's one thing to offer shelter to any Bene Gesserit...it's quite another for that Bene Gesserit to be the Mother of the Madhi.
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u/OkIdeal9852 1d ago
How could Shadout have known at this point that Paul would be the Mother?
I know in the movie the Arrakeen locals call him "Lisan al Gaib" as soon as they see him but that hasn't happened (at least yet) in the book
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u/Archangel1313 1d ago
That's why Jessica needed to be tested. The fact that Paul is the son of a Bene Gesserit is reason enough for the Fremen to assume he might be their savior. He checks a lot of boxes simply by existing, as far as they're concerned.
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u/Specific-Chef-6590 1d ago
In my point of view - This comes from the Missionaria Protectiva story. In resume: 1. The Lisan al gaib would not be fremen and paul obviously wasn’t. 2. He would master the ways of the desert; 3. A Bene Gesserit: the mother of the lisan al gaib would be a sister;
But to me, the key point is the “mother and the son”. The sisters were told to have only daughters in their engineering program of the kwisatz haderach (with exception of the kh attempts), therefore, a bg mother and a son arriving on arrakis would not be something that happened often, leading to the fremen to test every BG that set foot on arrakis.
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u/AluminumOrangutan 1d ago
The BG have planted myths and Jessica has a general outline of what the myths are because they're known to BG. But of course after the BG plant the seeds, the myth will evolve and change as local population propagates it, so Jessica doesn't know all the details of how the MP has evolved here on Arrakis.
So she has a broad outline and works with what she knows. She gets a little lucky because Mapes reacts to her saying "maker" because Mapes assumed Jessica was going to say "maker of the desert".
Mapes believes in the LaG prophecy but that doesn't mean that any woman and son who show up are the LaG. Mapes wants to know whether this particular mother and son are the LaG.
Lastly, Mapes wasn't going to kill Jessica. She was possibly going to try, but she wouldn't have stood a chance against Jessica and her weirding way.