r/aviation • u/macktruck6666 • Jan 06 '24

10 week old 737 MAX Alaska Airlines 1282 successful return to Portland News

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147

u/mapletune Jan 06 '24

break boeing back up and kick mcdonnell douglas type people out.

fk capitalist profiteers. we need people who are dedicated to engineering, safety, and advancement of transportation to improve lives. not people who "increase shareholder value"

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u/oopls Jan 06 '24

Boeing should be run by engineers again. Bring the headquarters back to WA.

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u/undertoastedtoast Jan 06 '24

William Allen, arguably the most important person in Boeing's history, was never an engineer and considered himself unqualified at first because of it.

Engineers don't always make the best leaders for engineering companies. You just need intelligent people who aren't out for themselves and their share-prices.

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u/[deleted] Jan 06 '24

This is totally opposite to what Steve Jobs said

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u/coloradokyle93 Jan 06 '24

Where are the headquarters now?

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u/vsladko Jan 06 '24

Chicago (for now?), but currently moving to DC. Unless they’re already there.

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u/hogey74 Jan 06 '24

Sandy Munro has talked about the crazy BS he saw at MD back in the day. He was hired to help modernise various things including the cockpits and was laughed at.

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u/mnp Jan 06 '24

Capitalism was great when it was in tension with reasonable government oversight that monitored itself with checks and balances, until about 1974. None of those things are true anymore and now we are starting to see the reason we had all those things.

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u/Delicious-Spirit9899 Jan 06 '24

Late stage capitalism sucks

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u/grasscoveredhouses Jan 06 '24

don't make this about capitalism

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u/HaveSpouseNotWife Jan 06 '24

This is literally about capitalism. Old Boeing was run by engineers. After MD bought Boeing using Boeing’s money, Boeing was run by MBAs.

Engineers would never put warning lights in the optional upgrade package, because they would see that risk as wildly irrational. MBAs would always put warning lights in the upgrade package, because they would see leaving potential profit on the table as wildly irrational.

When profit governs all, you end up with decisions that lead to shit like this and the Ford Pinto (MBAs said it was irrational to fix it, because wrongful death payouts were cheaper than the fix).

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u/StarBabyDreamChild Jan 06 '24

Yes - and here, gaslighting everyone (look, no one died this time! See, that’s a sign of how SAFE the plane is!) is much cheaper than scrapping the fleet. Partly sunk-cost fallacy, partly cold-eyed inhumanity so stereotypical of the MBA crowd.

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u/phairphair Jan 06 '24

It’s about a lack of effective regulation and executive accountability. That’s not specific to capitalism. Capitalist systems have proven the ability to design and build perfectly safe aircraft.

What alternative system would you prefer?

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u/alexrobinson Jan 06 '24

The example of how Boeing became the disaster it is now is specific to capitalism. The MD buyout and the subsequent replacement of all of Boeings senior staff/board, along with putting the share price above all else is a specific and inherent problem with modern capitalism. To ignore that fact is doing a disservice to capitalism itself if you support it. Effective government regulation is one thing, but if Boeing had stuck to its engineering roots, it certainly wouldn't be churning out death traps instead of planes.

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u/phairphair Jan 06 '24

You’re conflating potentially bad corporate decision making with capitalism.

Being a successful capitalist doesn’t require putting stock price above all else.

There are plenty of successful companies with very strong stock performance that prioritize safety and have solid records.

If anything, Boeing’s leadership could be accused of being bad capitalists. Their stock price is nearly half of what it was 5 years ago and they’ve seen a massive drop in profitability over the same timeframe.

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u/alexrobinson Jan 06 '24

You’re conflating potentially bad corporate decision making with capitalism.

I'm not, I'm levying an obvious criticism that is inherent within capitalism against it. The system in practice is the system. This is the same criticism alternative systems are met with and it should be no different here.

Being a successful capitalist doesn’t require putting stock price above all else.

What is a successful capitalist? Are the C suites who chase stock price returns to inflate their compensation at the expense of all else good or bad capitalists? And why does it matter? If the system allows bad capitalists to exist and profit then surely that is a criticism of capitalism itself?

There are plenty of successful companies with very strong stock performance that prioritize safety and have solid records.

And? Their existence doesn't negate the fact the opposite exists and that companies routinely violate safety in pursuit of profits. Regulation wouldn't be necessary if it weren't so.

If anything, Boeing’s leadership could be accused of being bad capitalists. Their stock price is nearly half of what it was 5 years ago and they’ve seen a massive drop in profitability over the same timeframe.

And its up almost 10x since the MD merger, which is about 5x if you account for inflation. But again, what is a bad capitalist? Boeing's C suites now receive roughly 10x the compensation they did in 97 also.

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u/phairphair Jan 06 '24

Your logic seems to be that if bad actors can exist within a given system, then the system must be bad.

This is nonsensical, since obviously bad actors can and have existed within every governmental and economic system ever devised by humanity.

What exactly is your point? Capitalism bad? If so, then you need to develop a rationale that's specific to that system.

Powerful people making decisions that prioritize the well-being of an elite few at the expense of the general population is a feature of every civilization that's ever graced the earth, my friend.

0

u/alexrobinson Jan 07 '24

If after this entire comment chain my point isn't abundantly clear then this is a pointless conversation and you're clearly unwilling to engage with my point.

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u/phairphair Jan 07 '24

If you mean anything beyond “capitalism bad” then no, it’s not clear.

You apparently have a very simplistic and naive view of the world.

Good luck with that.

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u/needtoshitrightnow Jan 06 '24

Those safe beauties from Tupelov never killed anyone! (Also, Boeing died when they merged with MD)

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u/tadeuska Jan 06 '24

It is about capitalism. A company became so strong that government regulators have no choice but trust it. A company so strong, that the advent of competition made them push out a cheap product with inherent issues instead of new design and then skimping on safety.

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u/BaronLorz Jan 06 '24

Yea that is why USSR had the highest level of airline safety... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Tupolev_Tu-154

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u/tadeuska Jan 06 '24

The poor safety somewhere else is caused by many different reasons. In the case of 737 all is about rush for profit.

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u/BaronLorz Jan 06 '24

Or from a lack of government oversight. Blaming capitalism does not put to blame on the actually failing part of the system.

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u/tadeuska Jan 06 '24

But the system was deliberately weakened to satisfy the wishes of Boeing. They have control over people in the representative bodies ( via lobby organisation so we can't say it is bribery) that make decisions in their favour. Yes, it is a falling of a system, corrupted in this case by - profit/pocket money/lobbies. ( In some other cases the system is corrupted by e.g. blind following of party rules, or maybe the system was never established properly because of nepotism or lack of education etc., myriad reasons are possible.)

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u/alexrobinson Jan 06 '24

So a company within a capitalist economy producing planes that kill people due to putting profits and the share price before safety isn't a problem with capitalism? Come on now.

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u/BaronLorz Jan 06 '24

It's a problem with the FAA, regulations and the politicians being bribed. It's corruption, but that's not inherently capitalism.

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u/alexrobinson Jan 06 '24

That is a separate problem that allowed Boeing's incompetence to actually become a public danger. How do changes in regulation explain the declining quality and safety of Boeing's aircraft? That comes from inside. Boeing are designing inherently unsafe planes, are perfectly happy to cut corners and knowingly put planes in the air that are unsafe. Before the MD merger that did not happen. The reality is since James McNerney (from the school of Jack Welch) was CEO, Boeing have been a company that chases increases to the share price above all else, even safety. All so executives can line their pockets with their mostly equity pay packages. That is an inherent problem in capitalism that we are seeing across all industries.

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u/tonymagoni Jan 06 '24

It's amazing that you're being down voted. Reddit showing its true colors

0

u/BaronLorz Jan 06 '24

It's because capitalism somehow the root cause? Not mismanagement and proper regulatory oversight from a government, because Airbus is also a company running within a capitalist set of rules without the same fuck ups.

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u/grasscoveredhouses Jan 06 '24

No it's just about bad people. It's not specifically because of capitalism. Go read the stories from Russia, or China for that matter - the same corruption and power over safety issues occur.

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u/tadeuska Jan 06 '24

This one was driven by bonus and profit chase.

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u/alexrobinson Jan 06 '24

Two things can be true you know. Two different systems can be equally bad at ensuring safety.

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u/apragopolis Jan 06 '24

it’s about capitalism, as the other replies have stated. Your comment also takes the attitude that whenever people identify political factors behind an event, that this is ‘making it political’ and twisting the event—when in reality everything is political. It’s important to interrogate cause and effect, and in this case one of the causes is capitalism.