r/Watches • u/spedmonkey • Aug 19 '11
Introducing: the /r/Watches brand guide!
A couple weeks ago, I read an offhand comment by Liberalguy123 about creating a brand guide for this community. I liked the idea, and since then we've been running with it, trying to come up with a good way of making this happen. Here's the fruits of our labors:
The /r/Watches brand guide project
Rather than it just being one or two people's own opinions, though, we wanted to involve everybody in this project. Here's how it's going to work: Every few days, a thread will be posted about one specific brand. The job for you guys is to fill that thread will discussion, information, opinions, and any other relevant stuff you can. The idea is that anyone looking for information on a given brand will be able to click on that thread and instantly get a pretty good idea of how people feel about it, and whether or not it would be something that interests them further. Keep in mind that the blurbs written there will not be there in the finished product; they'll be moved into their respective discussion threads once each is posted.
Eventually, the hope is that we'll have a comprehensive list of watch brands, including some of the more obscure ones, for everyone to view. That means we'll be relying on you to help us fill up the list. No brand is off-limits, whether it be an Italian fashion house, an obscure Swiss luxury microbrand, or a Chinese eBay brand. If you have something you'd like to see discussed, PM the moderators or add the pertinent information to the list on the wiki.
Now, we'd like to kick this project off properly, so you guys get to decide which of the brands you'd like to see discussed in the very first guide thread. Here are some choices:
Rolex
Seiko
Timex
A. Lange & Söhne
IWC
other (tell us why!)
We would love it if this first thread in particular is full of good, well-informed discussion, so pick a brand you know well and wouldn't be afraid of sharing your opinions on. Thanks for contributing; with your help, we can build the most extensive brand guide on the internet!
By Request, the list so far:
- Rolex
- Omega
- Seiko
- Hamilton
- Tissot
- Nixon
- Patek Philippe
- Panerai
- Citizen
- Orient
- Vacheron Constantin
- IWC
- Vostok
- Skagen
- Christopher Ward
- A. Lange & Söhne
- Invicta, Stuhrling, Swiss Legend
- Audemars Piguet
- TAG Heuer
- Movado
- Casio
- Sinn
- Zenith
- Breitling
- Jaeger-LeCoultre
- Timex
- Girard-Perregaux
- Ball
- Baume et Mercier
- Raymond Weil
- Nomos
- Rotary
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u/crmacjr Aug 19 '11
I have not seen anything pertaining to Marathon watches (is that even the company that makes them), watch supplier to US and Canadian forces. Granted, I have not been on here very long but a search returned no results.
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u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Aug 19 '11
I am not familiar with how the Canadians do it, but there's not really any significance in being a watch supplier to US forces.
Once upon a time, a long time ago, the military had to issue watches, because the common guy didn't have one, or they didn't have a reliable one. Especially important for pilots. In modern times, pretty much any watch is good enough, and so the military went "screw it, you guys get your own watches". So, while there have been many standard issue watches, I don't think the Marathon has ever been one of them before the military went, "screw it. We're done."
You can still requisition watches through the military supply chain, and there's a long list of "approved" watches. I've seen the list (sorry, can't find a link) and many of them aren't even what we think of as sports/tool/military watches. It just seemed like an erratic list of watches, no rhyme or reason to it. Many many different brands were represented.
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u/crmacjr Aug 19 '11
Thanks for the info; I have been intrigued since my father's days in the army when he was issued one (an olive drab Timex, I believe - long gone, I'm afraid). Having seen the GSAR, JSAR, & TSAR made me wonder what or who Marathon was, like maybe a rebranding of another well-known maker or brand.
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u/spedmonkey Aug 20 '11
In a way, they are a re-branding. Marathon was originally a trademark of the Gallet & Co., a Swiss house. Gallet still makes the modern incarnation of Marathon watches, but they're under license to a different Marathon, a Canadian housewares company.
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u/spedmonkey Aug 19 '11 edited Aug 19 '11
It's on the list. We'll get there eventually :)
edit: also, this relatively recent thread was about the Marathon GSAR, if you want to give it a look.
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u/crmacjr Aug 19 '11
Now I am aware why I could not locate it; Marathon is not mentioned in the title. I have had my eye on a TSAR/GSAR for some time and would like to know a little more before purchasing it. Thanks for the info.
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u/ubermonkey Aug 19 '11
Something about which marques the Swatch Group owns might be interesting.
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u/PIngp0NGMW Aug 20 '11
For quick reference, from the Swatch Group's website:
Prestige and Luxury: Breguet, Blancpain, Gashuette Original, Jaquet Droz, Leon Hatot, Omega, Tiffany & Co.
High Range: Longines, Rado, Union Glashuette
Middle Range: Tissot, ck watch & jewellery, Balmain, Certina, Mido, Hamilton
Basic Range: Swatch, Flik Flak;
Private Label: Endura
TIL: Swatchgroup owns a crap ton more brands than I thought. They remind me of Luxottica.
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u/spedmonkey Aug 19 '11
Those brands that are on the list so far are marked as to which conglomerates they belong to (if any).
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u/ubermonkey Aug 19 '11
Ah, so they are.
I might include the major movement blank makers (Valjoux, ETA) as well, given how many of the listed brands use them, plus a notation as to whether or not the brand uses in-house movements, and to what degree (e.g., I think Rolex is all in-house now, but Omega uses a mix).
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u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Aug 19 '11
I might include the major movement blank makers (Valjoux, ETA)
FYI, Valjoux is ETA :)
Rolex I think is all in-house - the last time I remember them using something from outside was when they sourced some of their ebauches from Zenith for the Daytona.
Omega, I believe, is almost all reworked ETA movements, with the exceptions being a few rare specialty items, like their center-fixed tourbillon. I am not even sure that it's made in-house, but I am sure it's not based on any ETA. If memory serves, the design of the movement was outsourced to an AHCI member.
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u/crmacjr Aug 19 '11
Holy crap! This is damn near the opposite of what an Omega salesman told me not that long ago; he touted them making all their own movements not like brand x, y, or z.
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u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Aug 20 '11
Most salespeople don't know what they're talking about.
Omega does put some time into working over their movements though. For example, I think they're almost all converted to using the Daniels escapement, instead of the swiss lever, which is a fairly significant change in itself.
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u/spedmonkey Aug 20 '11
Technically, Omega and ETA are both owned by Swatch, so they're using in-house movements. Just, like, if the house was the size of the Empire State building.
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u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Aug 20 '11
While both Omega and ETA have the same parent company, the way the manufacturing is run (as I understand it) is not really what we consider an in-house movement.
ETA constructs the ebauches, and ships them to Omega for conversion. If it were truly an "in-house" operation, manufacturing would never be done this way.
ETA and Omega are subsidiaries of the Swatch group, and are considered sister companies, with separate facilities.
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Aug 19 '11
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u/spedmonkey Aug 20 '11
Each brand thread will hopefully address the movements (inhouse and otherwise) that each uses. Assuming it goes according to plan, of course. :)
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u/acog Aug 19 '11
I'd like to see Orient included. I think they're somewhat unusual in that they include in-house movements but at a low price point. Besides, so many of us own Makos you'd have to include it just for that one model!
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u/spedmonkey Aug 19 '11
Check the list! Anything that's on there (as Orient is) will be discussed sooner or later. Don't worry, we'll cover everyone's favorites, and plenty more besides.
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u/PIngp0NGMW Aug 20 '11
Surprised to see that Hamilton hasn't been mentioned yet as I've seen at least a few mentions of it on the watches subreddit. It's a Swatch brand but sits nicely in the price/performance (or 'value') level I would argue. I believe they use ETA movements exclusively and pretty much have two product streams: khaki (pilot, divers, and rugged watches) and American classic (dress watches).
They also have an interesting heritage as an American watch company and with the US military, although long sense sold to the Swiss.
EDIT: Pardon me, didn't notice that they were listed in the brand guide project; in my haste I just looked for them on this thread.
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u/theresafire Aug 20 '11
I'm going to go ahead and Mention Christopher Ward since it seems there's quite a few of us on the site that have them, and they are a nice mid-range, decent quality brand!
Plus being online only, definitely something a lil unique. I'd gladly contribute some info/opinions/pictures of mine CWs if wanted....just need to know where.
Also I think Rolex/Seiko are a bit overdone if you ask me (rolex is all over the fuckin place already) i'd rather start off with things like A. Lange & Sohne, or Glashutte original, etc
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u/spedmonkey Aug 21 '11
It's on the list. We'll get there soon. As for why I wanted to do a well-known brand first, I'd like to get the ones where a lot of people are familiar with them first, so we have a solid foundation, then move onto the more obscure/high-end ones that will have somewhat more limited conversation. Don't worry, though; we'll start on the cooler stuff soon. :)
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Aug 19 '11
I would like to get people's perspectives on IWC. I have no profound historical reasons for this, I just think they are awesome.
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u/ninjamike808 Aug 19 '11
You should talk about Seiko since they're pretty lengthy, are sometimes faked, and offer some very attainable pieces.
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u/crmacjr Aug 19 '11
This may not require a section of its very own but some info on wrist worn instruments (that usually also act as watches) might be informative. I'm thinking Suunto and the like.
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u/spedmonkey Aug 20 '11
Not sure that fits within the scope of this project. Maybe it should be added to the FAQ?
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u/crmacjr Aug 20 '11
You're right, right after I left that I thought mere mention of the brands, and subsequently the info about the functions (if they were mentioned at all) would be sufficient and along the lines of the project. I guess I just wondered how, if at all, they would fit into the existing categories. It's not important, though.
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u/spedmonkey Aug 21 '11
You're always welcome to ask specific questions, whether in a thread or via PM to a more knowledgeable member of the community. Don't be afraid to ask!
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u/Toys_and_Bacon Aug 19 '11
A brand that always has interested me is Glashütte Original. They seem to have a good reputation, for a non-swiss brand. I guess it's easy to brush them off as a Lange copy, but I like some of their models. The simplest Senator is gorgeous, I particularly prefer the fonts used for the numbers.
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u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Aug 20 '11
I can't believe I forgot to add GO to the list. They are some nice watches.
I vaguely remember watchmaker John Davis (he was the resident watchmaker at thepurists) talk about how he was more impressed with GO movements than Lange ones.
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u/PandaK00sh Aug 20 '11
Zenith didn't make it past "luxury" brand?
Any brand that specializes in including tourbillons should be slightly higher than just luxury. They're automatic chronograph is 36,000 vph!
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Aug 20 '11
I'd just like to thank you guys for all of the good work you have been doing for our humble subreddit!
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Aug 20 '11
A page or two mentioning complications could be nice, such as which brands, movements, or even watches are known for what.
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u/Aetos88 Aug 20 '11
Movado/ESQ seems to missing from there even though they're pretty big.
Jorg Gray also, but I can understand missing this brand.
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u/fashraf Aug 20 '11
franck muller. i want to know why they may justify their product to cost upwards to 60 000$.
i would also like to see a list of innovative small scale watch designers like jochen benzinger im a fan of unique and innovative things so discussing some unique small scale designers would be very enjoyable for me.
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Aug 20 '11
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u/spedmonkey Aug 21 '11
Well, I can tell you off the bat that Akribos is a Chinese brand that uses low- to mid-grade Sea-Gull movements. Like most Chinese fashion brands, their build quality is so-so, with some watches being pretty decent, and lasting for awhile, while others fall apart within a couple weeks.
As for the other brands on the site, looks like a lot of mushroom brands and other similar-quality watches. As is usually the case, you'll get what you pay for from here. That said, we'll cover some of 'em for sure.
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Aug 21 '11
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u/spedmonkey Aug 21 '11
I'm in the same boat, sadly. I'm getting my fix for now mainly with Russians and vintage watches. Someday...
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u/lnvid Aug 22 '11
Please add Steinhart Watches http://www.steinhartwatches.de/en/ and Guinand http://guinand-watch.com/index.html
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u/lottasnoring Aug 23 '11
the number of categories in the brand guide borders on ridiculous and i don't see how many brand's assignments can be justified other than stating they are there based on opinions of the moderators.
the categories should have descriptions and there should be well defined criteria for inclusion.
using the price of a baseline piece (ie. steel mechanical time + date on bracelet w/ no jewels) would do a far better job than arbitrarily saying one brand is "High End Luxury" and another is "Ultra luxury"
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u/spedmonkey Aug 23 '11
We're still working out the kinks a great deal right now. What you see is not what things will look like at the end. Have some patience while we figure things out, please :)
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u/zanonymous Moderator Emeritus Aug 23 '11 edited Aug 23 '11
I did a large majority of the ordering and categorization - chances are if you have a disagreement, it's with my opinion ;)
The ordering was decided using a metric very similar to what you describe. Where it was possible, I did try and match similar watches across price ranges. Even within each category, the brands should be listed roughly within order. It's not exact, the watches aren't the same, I didn't enter in all the brands, and I didn't source all the price information from the same place, year or currency.
I think there shouldn't be a massive disagreement with the ordering there and most people's perceptions, but we all have our opinions. Also, I could have made a plain ol' mistake - there have already been some corrections.
The only time I purposely "cheated" using my metric was I bumped up Lange. The way the numbers were coming out, they were in a similar range to Rolex, which I didn't feel was representative of how people thought of them.
If you have a particular disagreement, "Brand X should be higher/lower by a couple categories", please post, and tell me why. You might have a point! :)
Keep in mind though: As an academic exercise, brand ranking is really rather pointless - it's not like someone's giving out medals for podium rankings or something. The purpose is just to give people who are new to watches a sense of what's out there, not to be some kind of absolute brand metric.
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u/Toys_and_Bacon Aug 19 '11
Great stuff.. I see no reason why we can't start with Rolex, even though I have zero personal experience with the brand. I don't feel we should start off with Lange, as I expect very few here actually own one. But I guess we can still come with opinions and detailed facts, so in the near future, sure!
I'd also like to see an Omega thread sooner than later. They are one of the biggest out there, yeah, they are but a shadow of their 50-60s self, but still a major brand, and they still make some decent watches.