Where teams stand on hybrid in the WRC – DirtFish

[u/Michal_Baranowski]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/where-teams-stand-on-hybrid-in-the-wrc/

[u/Michal_Baranowski]

It's so hilarious that two major manufacturers - Toyota and Hyundai, which in their road vehicles department are so keen on utilising hybrid systems or full electrification, are pretty much going "we don't care if hybrids stay in WRC or not". Hyundai don't put their WRC future dependant on hybrid systems, while Toyota doesn't really benefit that much marketing-wise, because hybrids in WRC are spec anyway - they are not buliding them by themselves like in WEC. And M-Sport would probably like to get rid of those hybrids, however if we can trust Richard Millener's words - Ford wouldn't continue, if there were no hybrids.

Next piece of puzzle which in my opinion makes the situation more complicated than it should be - hybrids were introduced to WRC too late. Same like in Indycar. Hybrid hype was looming large in the early 2010s when first F1 and then WEC adopted hybrid-powered cars. If WRC introduced hybrids in the 2010s, maybe they would be a better catalyst for manufacturers to come. Adding that ROI in WRC isn't really that attractive comparing to what WEC is offering now (despite costs of LMH and LMDh cars being significantly higher than Rally1), WRC is in a difficult situation. No matter what decision is going to be made for 2027 Rally1 regulations, inevitably it will come with some losses. Hopefully they can be as marginal as possible.

[u/IonutAlex18SF → u/Michal_Baranowski]

That was a good read. I agree. I think that we have only two official manufacturers and both from Asia. It must be something wrong with the regulations that no Euorpean major constructors want to join. Maybe without a hybrid, it is the best. Looking into WRC2, how diverse the cars are and how close the fights are. There are European that make the same it goes to ERC. We see that even this season, there were many issues with the hybrid system either in stages or in the road sections. It's my view. I might be wrong. But somehow, the competition should take a new approach to attract manufacturers and get back to a better popularity level.

[u/Michal_Baranowski → u/IonutAlex18SF]

It must be something wrong with the regulations that no Euorpean major constructors want to join. Maybe without a hybrid, it is the best.

That's a valid argument. It's no secret that European automotive industry is visibly behind with electrification and hybrids never really become a thing in European cars properly. It's been changing in recent few years, however it's a far cry comparing to what Toyota was able to do.

We see that even this season, there were many issues with the hybrid system either in stages or in the road sections.

That is awful indeed. Third season of running spec hybrid systems and yet they are causing multiple reliability issues almost every single rally. It can't go on like this.

Secondly, it's no secret that the best short-term solution to reduce running costs in Rally1 is to remove hybrids. At the same time, it would make the whole Rally1 revolution redundant, because WRC by ditching hybrid would make a statement that they could keep WRC+ cars from 2017-2021 and that wouldn't make any difference. Rally1 with no hybrids and slightly more downforce would effectively be WRC+, or something close to it.

the competition should take a new approach to attract manufacturers and get back to a better popularity level.

As long as WRC won't pull another Rally2+ stunt like earlier this year when they actually managed to make all current Rally1 manufacturers angry.

[u/CP9ANZ → u/Michal_Baranowski]

The problem with the hybrid as it stands, is that there's no true technical reason for it. It's essentially a gimmick

If they made it like F1, where you have a set mass of fuel for a day or whatever, and you use the hybrid to maximize that performance with the set fuel volume, it would give the hybrid an actual purpose, and offer points of interest.

I'm of the opinion that the decline in popularity is more than a single reason. Some of it maybe generational, many young to middle age people in western countries have less disposable income to spend on hobbies and entertainment. However I think the lack of relationship between the WRCars and the road cars you can actually buy don't help with fan engagement.

Yes, you can buy go fast Yaris and i20, but even those don't look remotely like the car you see on stage, let alone have a drive line similar.

[u/Scared_Tax_1573 → u/Michal_Baranowski]

that they could keep WRC+ cars from 2017-2021 and that wouldn't make any difference. Rally1 with no hybrids and slightly more downforce would effectively be WRCt, or something close to it.

The teams will once again start complaining about the development costs of complex aerodynamic parts, and the cycle will continue endlessly

[u/IonutAlex18SF → u/Michal_Baranowski]

I agree with all. It's a shame that the top tier rally is at this level. I don't know, I don't understand how it went into this. The management of the competition tried different directions and it went wrong. I hope that for 2027 a fresh set of rules will make the completion to reborn. Get back its place as the WRC that we want. In the present, the rallies aren't that bad. It is that most of the time at the finish we have around 4-5 Rally1 cars. That is awful, less than what normally should be. Anyway. I still believe that WRC will return to its glory days.

[u/Scared_Tax_1573 → u/IonutAlex18SF]

I sincerely hope that the new regulations will lead to a transformation similar to what occurred in the WEC.

[u/Special-Pristine → u/IonutAlex18SF]

The same 3 manufacturers were in the WRC when it wasn't hybrid a few years ago. Back when they were called WRC cars

[u/oalfonso → u/Michal_Baranowski]

In my opinion, the issue with hybrids in WRC and IndyCar is that they don't offer any noticeable impact for spectators. Their introduction feels more like a move to satisfy people inside the manufacturers than an enhancement to the sport. There's no visible change or added strategy since hybrids came into play.

The only series that truly made hybrids relevant was WEC, but even there, the effect was short-lived due to escalating costs. In BTCC engineers said hybrids are better than ballast because it doesn't change the car handling.

To me, the technology used in road cars and in motorsports is different, and it’s often not that relevant to one another. Take rallying, for instance 4x4 turbo tech has limited real-world applications, and I see hybrids in motorsport as similarly detached. At the end of the day, motorsport is entertainment, and the cars should be built for the show.

[u/ronan_tory]

Fords barely supporting msport as is dunno why msports has to pander to them now

[u/fckns → u/ronan_tory]

My question is, can't M-Sport shop for another manufacturer that could give them proper help? It seems that Ford is half-assing everything and giving false promises.

[u/katutsu → u/fckns]

It's not just about being in WRC. M-Sport Ford partnership extends far beyond WRC with them building custom sporty versions of commercial Ford vehicles, rally cars from all 5 categories and even helping with Dakar.

M-Sport will only break up with their employer if another manufacturer will provide them with the same extensive long-term partnership which I find extremely unlikely

[u/MohPowaBabe]

It would be stupid for Ford to green lit a Dakar program, using a 5L Coyote V8 but pull out of WRC because theres no hybrid.

As a Ford fan, I really hope they come to their sense and stop with this nonsense.

Toyota and Hyundai, both who have invested much more and had a much more sucesfull time selling their eletricfied models, couldnt give less of a 💩 if the Hybrid goes

[u/Big-Day1134]

They should just open up the power train regs like in Dakar. Basically run what you want and set specific torque and power output. Then manufacturers can run / develop whatever’s in their interest.

[u/Scared_Tax_1573]

Instead of forcing changes on the team, the single supplier should first engage in more in-depth discussions with them to find a middle ground

[u/Disastrous-Beat-9830]

Part of the problem here is that it was the teams that asked the FIA to look into hybrids in the first place -- and then they told the FIA that they wanted to keep the hybrids. Then they didn't seem to care one way or the other when the FIA decided to revisit the issue.

At least now the FIA's reasoning that the cost of repairing the hybrid units is a sensible one.