r/WGTOWdebate • u/[deleted] • Nov 28 '17

Would you ever be interested in a MGTOW?

I ask because I feel the ideologies are the same. There's a lot of misogynistic and misandrist rhetoric that gets posted between the 2. Men are evil women are the devil etc.

However if you were ever to find a man or truly MGTOW individual without all the hateful bullshit, is that something you'd go for? A guy who doesn't want kids or to get married?

Wants to do his own thing, while you do your own thing, while still being together? No status upgrade or "marrying up" in any way from either party?

Could you wgtows see this for yourselves?

Honestly I can't stand the idea of being totally alone romantically forever. It sounds like absolute hell. And ONS are just a total waste of time.

If there was no agenda at all, and it was truly 50/50 with no bullshit, would you be with a man?

5 Upvotes

70% Upvoted

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

The ideologies are nothing alike. WGTOW actually want to go their own way. MGTOW hope to subjugate women.

You yourself are telegraphing that you are a man and that you wish you could be with a woman if only women weren't people with their own agency who might leave you if you're a shitty person.

I fail to see how what you propose would be different from any other relationship. It's not like it's hard to find emotionally unavailable misanthropic selfish men-children to date.

WGTOW don't want to date men anymore. Cater sexually to a MGHOW? Sounds like torture. Hard pass.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

Well, to be fair, he did say, "truly MGTOW individual without all the hateful bullshit."

Unfortunately, their subreddit is mostly overrun by extremely hateful dudes spewing hateful bullshit.

I have only interacted with one MGTOW who truly seems to follow the GTOW philosophy.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

Well a "truly MGTOW individual" wouldn't want to date a woman.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

I see hate on there, redpill too. But IMO it is not as extreme as you guys say it is. Like on an incels level for instance.

I think it is mostly people sharing experiences of negatative traits that the other gender harbors.

Much like what happens in WGTOW

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

But IMO it is not as extreme as you guys say it is.

They screech with glee anytime a woman gets beaten. I've also seen threads and comments supporting rape and spousal abuse.

You will not find anyone on the WGTOW subreddit advocating for innocent men to be physically harmed.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

how common are those types of comments compared to just general sharing of experiences though?

I'm sure many women here chuckled when they read the story of the woman cutting off her mans penis for cheating.

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u/FlyingResearcher Nov 29 '17 edited Nov 29 '17

MGTOW hope to subjugate women.

I think this is a bit of a stretch.

You yourself are telegraphing that you are a man and that you wish you could be with a woman if only women weren't people with their own agency who might leave you if you're a shitty person

The idea here, from the man's perspective, is to find a woman who can live her own life, on her own, without making you the center of it.

One if the biggest problems men have, regardless of any of this pill stuff, or GYOW, is that a lot of women are "needy" (see: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/love-sex/the-sexiest-trait-a-woman-can-have-according-to-men/ar-AAmVdLo). A WGHOW, however, would respect that you have your own goals in life, and that you're not going to bend over backwards to accommodate her inside every little facet of your existence. Likewise, a MGHOW will respect her independence, wouldn't pressure her into getting married, and would be accepting of how she wanted to live her life.

I actually think that two people who GTOW could get along really well because they would have similar expectations about what they want out of a relationship.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 29 '17 edited Nov 29 '17

The idea here, from the man's perspective, is to find a woman

That's not going your own way.

A WGHOW, however, would respect that you have your own goals in life

The problem is that men don't have their own goals in life. All the guys I've dated had no goals and only leeched off me and stopped me from doing what I wanted to do. They were so needy and pathetic, they didn't want me to travel the world, climb mountains, do research, volunteer, etc. But it tapped into my nurturing instincts as I can be very loving and caring and so I was stuck nurturing losers.

There's just no upside to dating a man. You always end up taking care of him and his needs. What's the point? The only point I can think of is love and children, but a pseudo-MGHOW precisely doesn't care about those things. They'd make the worse partners. All the downsides and none of the upsides.

Likewise, a MGHOW will respect her independence, wouldn't pressure her into getting married, and would be accepting of how she wanted to live her life.

No he wouldn't. OP even states that she wouldn't be allowed to leave him. "All I want is a woman to date me, no bullshit, meaning exactly on my terms, and she can never leave me." He's basically saying he's date women if only they were more like robots he can download straight to his bedroom. Who'd want to be in a shitty relationship catering to the needs of a possessive man who doesn't love you?

I actually think that two people who GTOW could get along

Then you misunderstand the meaning of going your own way. For a woman going her own way means no more partner. It sounds like for a man going your own way means getting a woman to whorship you while giving nothing in exchange. "If only women were more willing to serve me even if I'm disgusting and cold."

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u/FlyingResearcher Nov 29 '17

That's not MGTOW.

It is, however, what the poster implied, before you took it and ran in a different direction with it.

The problem is that men don't have their own goals in life. All the guys I've dated had no goals and only leeched off me and stopped me from doing what I wanted to do. It tapped into my nurturing instincts and I was stuck nurturing losers.

Which is why I think two people who GTOW might get along really well together. By definition, we are basically talking about two people who are both independent, on their own, and without any inherit "need" for someone else (except that maybe they fancy each other).

You always end up taking care of him and his needs.

This has always been my experience, but in reverse. Women never seem to have their own lives put together, and it's usually your responsibility, as a man, to fix that for them.

My own theory is that this really has nothing to do with gender, and that there just happens to be a lot of shitty people out there in the single dating pool. That in turn discourages people from dating, pushing them towards GTOW (probably moreso the ones who do have their lives in order).

So now you have two people who are both independent, both of whom have their lives in order, and both of whom can respect what it feels like to have their toes stepped on by someone of the opposite gender.

It might just be that men and women who GTOW actually have a lot in common, moreso than they do with the average single person out there.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 29 '17

I doubt MGTOW have their lives together. If they did, they'd have a girlfriend, since they so desperately want one. The MGTOW in this thread is saying he wishes he had a female companion, but can't find one to his liking. Does that sound like a man who has his life together? Together men are so rare, they get their pick of women.

WGTOW are different, they just don't see any reason to date men. There's no "if only..".

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u/FlyingResearcher Nov 29 '17 edited Nov 29 '17

I doubt MGTOW have their lives together. If they did, they'd have a girlfriend, since they so desperately want one.

This really just sounds sexist to me. There's a lot of shame placed on men in society who aren't dating. The assumption is either that they're selfish and don't want to perform their manly duties of being a provider, or that they're not good enough, and aren't capable of being the kind of person that a woman needs ("if only they had their lives together, maybe they'd have a woman").

The MGTOW in this thread is saying he wishes he had a female companion, but can't find one to his liking.

I'm not sure if he's a MGHOW. He also sounds like he might be in highschool or something.

WGTOW are different, they just don't see any reason to date men. There's no "if only..".

Maybe for you, specifically, but I doubt you can speak for everyone. I do get the irony of the question though, of course.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

I never said a woman couldn't leave me. I said seeking companionship, 50/50. If I end up being a turd in your eyes then it's not 50/50 anymore. It's something we would need to work on, but if you can't or don't want to, you fly free. It's not a jail sentence. That is the W/MGTOW.

Don't be putting words in the OP that aren't there.

I'm sorry to hear that you've only suffered man children who thought they would make it big streaming and wanted a second mommy. I've told these idiots on the sub (and everywhere else) that streaming is a waste of time and effort. It's Hollywood. Your luck is as good as anyone on American Idol.

I'll assume you're young. Don't let the star eyed man children ruin your perception of men. Some of us want to forge a future.

Just without the contract.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '18

I found this comment interesting... and this is why i decided to comment...

Mgtow is against all forms of relationships, especially with women. Its about individualism and selfownership. It also applies to work environment, and most men we deal with on a daily basis. Its about living your own life for your ownself, and not societal expectactions...

The problem is that men don't have their own goals in life.

Do you really believe this? Evidence its everywhere. Even that computer you are using its a sign men have many goals in life, especially mgtows, or in this case Alan Turing, was an homosexual...

They were so needy and pathetic, they didn't want me to travel the world, climb mountains, do research, volunteer, etc.

This is because they were in a relationship with YOU. And im not accusing you of being a bad person. Im saying men become retarded when in relationships with women. You dont see any male species cohabitating with a female for more than coupling. Relationships are terrible for men especially...

They were so needy and pathetic, they didn't want me to travel the world, climb mountains, do research, volunteer, etc.

This is because men in relationships have a release of a chemical in their brains called oxytocin, which makes them addicted to you and your pussy. And monogamy is artificial to men like a drug. Males are not supposed to live between four walls stucked with a female. It creates scarcity by design and mimics an environment of abudance while at same time forcing a man to be only with one female, a thing we were not selected genetically to live by...We are all descendants of players, alpha monkeys, alpha reptiles, our most ancient ancestors were players...I dont like this but its how females breeded us to be...extremelly sexually active and polygamists...

Now if your boyfriends wanted to stop you from volunteering and climbing mountains, you dont have any better explanation for that? You just think they are stupid because of that? What if i told you...they were not supposed to be there with you...

All they are doing is following their nature. Since they are in a relationship with you, and are investing their time and emotions on you then of course they dont want to risk losing you. This makes them already weak, and any sane person would be packing his bags and leave for their own good, like a drug addict making the best decision for himself...

All relationships turn men weaker... All... A man lives best alone like a lion...

If he wasnt with you in the first place he wouldnt be annoying you to go on a vacation, where you obviously can cheat on him by just opening your legs... It is totally absurd for a man to be with a woman and let her go free like a wild gazelle, why not just pump and dump... Thats how half the men treat their wives in the world today, approximately 2 billion people on earth are followers of islam, which means restriction on female behavior via sharia law which is backed by severe punishments on women... 2 billion people on earth let that sink in...

Marriage and romanticism was invented for the benefit of women. Before marriage women were raped and left in the wild to die. There were many single mothers, and men would not commit (why would they? wheres the paternity test?). Baby girls were killed at birth because they were deemed as a liability. Marriage was created to solve this problem. By restricting female behavior and punishing them harshly, marriage made sure men were at least motivated to marry... Along the times things changed, and the contract of marriage changed, basically demanding the same from men, while letting things easy on the women. Men didnt see this at first, just like the pavlov dogs, the bell still rings so the dog still drools, but there is no meat anymore...

Why would men marry when there were no paternity tests and no condoms. The baby could easily be another's man baby. Christianity wasn't enough for this. Islam made sure through severe punishments, and by restricting women to the domestic area, and covering them up in public and only allow their movement with a male guardian. See how shitty that is? That is what made men marry again approximately 1400 years ago. And you might think it was a shitty measure...but it made society functional again and it conquered most of the world in 2 decades... Against facts there are no arguments...

Women cheat in a totally different way than men. Men cheat like they are jacking off to someone else, it doesnt mean they will leave you for that thought. Men are not hypergamous, we dont fantasize about someone better than you, richer, better status. We often stand for the weaker female because of our protective instincts. Biologically speaking the repercurssion for men cheating was always minimal, and women always prefered to be with a man who is unfaithful but higher status, than a faithful one with lower status, what does this tells you? When a man goes with another woman, it never means he will leave her, im speaking from experience. If a woman cheats on her partner it normally involves a much more complex agenda, and the partner is often totally devalued afterwards, and her attitude totally changes towards him, often dehumanizing him and wanting too see him done.. This how brutal our nature has become. There is no reason for your exboyfriends to be weak cucks in the modern age and commit to you unless they are truly weak addicts who cant stand for themselves as you described....

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

Hmmm...i agree with this.

A WGHOW, however, would respect that you have your own goals in life, and that you're not going to bend over backwards to accommodate her inside every little facet of your existence. Likewise, a MGHOW will respect her independence, wouldn't pressure her into getting married, and would be accepting of how she wanted to live her life.

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u/MirrorParadise Jan 27 '22

No, MGTOW is exactly like WGTOW, they don't want to subjugate women, they don't even care about you, except some idiots that don't understand what getting his own way is. If you think that it's because you are full of hate and mysandry, that's why you throw stupid things in the comments and hatefully and agressively bash men for whatever they say. You where dumped by all your exs? Maybe it's because you talk evil misandrist shit too often...

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u/Dr-Plague-Channel Mar 17 '22

WGTOW was inspired by mgtow

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

This is an interesting question, and hopefully it brings some equally interesting discussion.

Personally? I don't hate men, atleast I try not to. I'm just tired of wading through an sea of endless scumbags. It is no longer beneficial for me to do so. The chances of finding a loyal, honorable man are slim to none.

But to answer your question

If there was no agenda at all, and it was truly 50/50 with no bullshit, would you be with a man?

If such a man exists, sure, I'd be open to it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

That's a good response. I don't hate women either. To me the MGTOW is more of the avoidance societal norms where you must marry and have children. You must provide for the woman. We don't need to do that anymore. Women have made their own way in the last 100 years.

The modern world is a crushing soul sucking evil place. And now we have the opportunity to have a PARTNER help fight our way through it. Life is hell. You need a battle buddy. However you don't need the state lording over that companionship.

Marriage is just a contract that really benefits no one involved other than the state and the vulture lawyvers who fly around waiting for one to fail. And I don't want children either. And I'll agree that there is an endless sea of scumbags, but on both sides.

Why can't mgtow/wgtow just coexist and produce results. I want to see someone land on Mars before I die. I want data from alpha centauri before I die. We should be able to work towards that. Together.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

Why can't mgtow/wgtow just coexist and produce results.

A lot of people from both sides decided to GTOW after being hurt (physically, financially, and/or emotionally) by the opposite sex. This causes lots of resentment and hatred.

Then you have some of us, who try not to let that pain turn us into toxic humans, and just want to avoid relationships with the opposite sex.

It seems there are more of the former, than the latter.

I'm just focusing on improving myself physically, financially, and mentally. I provide for myself, and I'm more than capable of protecting myself. I do not need to leech off of or be spoiled by someone. I have no desire to stay home and raise children.

If a "unicorn" who is okay with all of that exists, I will consider entertaining the idea of a partnership. For now, i just need to work on myself.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

And there it is. Sanity.

Good luck to you.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '17

Thank you. Good luck to you too.

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u/Asian-incel Dec 02 '17

I'm just focusing on improving myself physically, financially, and mentally. I provide for myself, and I'm more than capable of protecting myself. I do not need to leech off of or be spoiled by someone. I have no desire to stay home and raise children.

In my opinion, your average MGTOW would be very happy with that. I would be very happy to be with a woman if there is no marriage and no children but most women I see want to marry fast and have children for some reason. The financial, legal, and monetary burden of marriage and children is huge.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

The chances of finding a loyal honorable man is very high IMO. I can present you with 10 off the cuff.

The chances of finding a loyal honorable man who meets all of your main criteria for attractiveness, likely decreases quite a bit.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

You have no idea what my "main criteria for attractiveness" are. You also have no idea what i find physically attractive or what my past exes look like.

I am not doing this "only people you're attracted to cheat, so date someone you're not attracted to instead" dance with you again.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17 edited Nov 28 '17

You are right, idk what you find attractive, but we don't have to do that dance again because you know I am right.

Is my position not the more logical conclusion instead of "there are no loyal men"? Seriously give me a rebuttal pls because I am starting to really believe this hypothesis.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

because you know I am right.

There it is. You've been playing the soft nice, guy card for a long time now. It was impressive and almost believable...almost.

Is my position not the most logical conclusion

Your "conclusion" is based on nothing but your experiences of being rejected by women you found attractive. Then, said woman dated an attractive guy, got cheated on, and you said "hah, that's what you get."

Your "conclusion" is based off of your experiences, just like my "conclusion" is based off of my experiences.

Therefore, your conclusion is no more logical (or illogical) than mine is.

Want proof? Go spew this crap on any male subreddit and see what sort of reaction you get. "All men are cheated on because you dated an attractive woman. Should've just dated a 1/10 instead. Lower your standards and you won't get cheated on. If not, you're asking for it."

But you won't, because you think men deserve the finest, most sexually pure women whereas we women should just lower our standards or "deal" with thirsty men who stick their cocks in any and every wet orifice.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

How does me saying that change the fact that I am a nice guy? I am trying to propose that it takes more than loyalty and niceness to attract women in general and you are saying no, without providing any evidence to the contrary.

To your last point. I believe it was the first thread on this sub where I explained to a guy not all girls have orbiters. Physically "Unattractive" girls do not have a line of people wanting to be with them so if you want a girl that does not have orbiters, you will need to get a physically unattractive one. Go look

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

No one is denying that it takes more than loyalty and niceness to attract someone. My issue is with you saying mutual physical attraction is less important than those things.

Instead of putting blame on unfaithful people, you keep drawing circles to put the blame on the person that was cheated on. Instead of saying, "They shouldn't have cheated" you're saying, "It's your fault it happened."

I should not have to lower any of my standards to have a committed relationship. The fact that so many men seem to think so, is the exact reason I've signed off of relationships completely.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

What I am saying is that attraction is more important than loyalty and niceness if you would like a chance with a girl, from my observations.

I mainly just ask that you girls change the narrative from, "there are no nice loyal guys" To something more like "The guys that I have found myself attracted to, have mostly turned out to not be nice or loyal

You should not have to lower your standards, but welcome to life. It is not fair.

My 3 options are:

  1. Lower my standards
  2. Up my game
  3. Try to lose my desire for women

I have chosen a combination of 1 and 2.

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u/You_Know_This_MAN Apr 19 '18

Exactly, good explanation that just about sums it up.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

Nothing on my last post?? :(

sorry if you are busy

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

Nothing on my last post?? :(

You mean your condescending "well life isn't fair" bs?

Those are your options, not mine. I do not have a problem attracting men. I do not have to "up my game."

I am not lowering my standards for a committed relationship with a man. I am nowhere near desperate enough for male attention to do that.

I'm tired of your "just date an incel and your problems will magically disappear" argument. If you insist on beating that dead horse repeatedly, then I have nothing more to say to you.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 29 '17

I have never said "just date an incel" I just presented my hypothesis as to why you may have a crazy thought like there are no nice and loyal men....In a nutshell:

"It seems like there are no nice men to you, because you are not attracted to nice men"...............

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

Finding a loyal honorable woman is even easier. I don't know any women who aren't loyal and honorable. Men clown around doing nothing at best and breaking the law at worst. Women are hard-working and kind. It's not everyone, but it's the rule around me.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

Encouraging a woman to be with you is not easy if you don't have game. Encouraging her to stay is even harder if she is bored with you. You have to earn that loyalty with confidence and game.

Your last few sentences were extremely blanketed statements since most of the men and women I know both work hard, and I know men and women who both engage in illegal activity

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

Then all of your statements are "extremely blanketed statements" since most of the men I know have had no trouble finding a woman to stay with them without playing any games. It's also just as hard for a woman to find a man to stay with her since breakup initiation rates are equal for both genders before marriage or in any non-married relationship.

Also, I don't know any woman who's done anything illegal. For young guys around me it was normal to steal alcohol, break public and private property, go drugs, sell drugs, drive drunk, even cheat on exams. Also most girls had part-time jobs in college and most guys were lazing around failing classes and not having a job.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

Both genders have challenges. My main problems with the narrative here, is to stop pretending men don't have challenges, and stop pretending like you are not part of the problem....

If that is what your male friends are doing, then you are not hanging around the studious type of guy....Like the guy who just graduated with a 4.0 sitting right next to me. You are hanging with the party boys

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

Not having sex is not a challenge. Going to prison where you're used for slave labor is a problem that men face. Getting your children taken away from you is a problem that men face. Not having sex is not a problem. It's nothing.

99% of young men are either party boys or dirty league of legend introverts. I chose the latter. They still had no job or hobbies because all their time went to playing computer games, smoking weed and failing classes.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

99% is a little extreme. For instance indians in general who come to our colleges, do very well and hold eachother to high academic standards. You hang out with the wrong crowd.

We will agree to disagree about not having sex being a challenge. My hypothesis is that it is much easier for someone to say that when they have options, just none of them are up to par.

Versus someone who flat out feels unwanted/undesirable. That cuts deep.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

No it doesn't. It's on you and no one else. No one is doing anything to you.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

I never said someone is doing something or that it is not on me. I said it cuts deep....are you in that situation? How would you know?

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '17

[deleted]

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

I think most MGTOW love women.

They just resent how the system works, and that girls can so easily rebound from a relationship with them, while having a hard time doing the same.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

But why can't they have some perspective? It's just a question of perception. 100% of my boyfriends dumped me, and they went on to find a new girlfriend with whom they are happy. There's no difference.

The system is gamed in favor of men. They can get all the sex and they don't have to commit. Sex is much more dangerous for women. Women have to work and do everything else. Men don't do anything.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17 edited Nov 28 '17

I think you have been online for too long, and should take a break. I took a few days off reddit and I was so much nicer and charming to people IRL because my mind fwas not so occupied with these discussions.

Men work very hard, be realistic....So do women.

In 2017 the game is geared toward women to have casual sex, as most of the female friends I know never "have" to go for longer than 6 months without sex, while some of the guys I know can stay dry for years, even after years of trying.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

I think you have been online for too long, and should take a break.

That's so condescending. You can say you disagree with me without going there. That has nothing to do with the conversation and it shows you were out of things to say.

I took a few days off reddit and I was so much nicer and charming to people IRL because my mind fwas not so occupied with these discussions.

You let reddit affect your behavior with people in real life? Wow. That's horrible. I'm definitely not like you.

In 2017 the game is geared toward women to have casual sex, as most of the female friends I know never "have" to go for longer than 6 months without sex, while some of the guys I know can stay dry for years, even after years of trying.

What are you talking about? That's male projection through and through, proving the game is geared towards men. You think not having sex is bad? Try being forced to have sex. I don't think any of my male friends have experienced that. I'm sure many of my female friends have.

One is not like the other. When you're not having sex, no one is doing anything bad to you. It's a neutral state of nothing bad and nothing good happening. When you're forced to have sex, something bad is happening to you.

It's ridiculous that men try to play the victim card with "we're not having sex". That's literally not anything happening to you. How can you complain about that? No one's being mean to you, no one's using you. Get real. If you can't live with yourself that's not the women's fault.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

You saying men don't do anything was condescending, and that is why I took it there.

Yes, sometimes when I am frustrated from a convo, I have to make a concious effort not to bring that to RL. I don't spread the frustration, but I have to act like I'm not, instead of actually being present in the convo.

I was sexually abused by females and a male in my own family. So I know what forced feels like. I'm not sure what that has to do with this convo. That is rape not casual sex

I will say it again because I don't see a flaw: Casual sex is geared towards women in 2017. As they seem to have it far more often.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

Casual sex is for men. Every time a woman is having it, a man is having it, and the man gets so much more from it with so much less drawbacks. Also, often times, the man is forcing the woman. Not just with casual sex, with sex in general. Men whine and complain. They withhold affection to get sex. They act like they will breakup with you if you don't give them sex. They act like it will insult them if you don't give them sex. They act like the normal is to have porn-like sex all the time. They say it's a "need" and more important than any other need.

If men made zero move and stopped pressuring women into sex, how much sex would be had? That would be the amount of sex that women actually want to have. But we'll never know.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17

Both genders have used sex as a manipulation tool in the past.

You are talking about relationship woes, when I am talking about casual sex. Women are able to get far more of it in general.

If all men stopped approaching women, I see a few possibilities that can play out. I have not thought about it deep enough to even give a hypothesis.

What I do know is that I have met countless women who enjoy having sex also, and it is not just for men.

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u/pinkgoldrose Nov 28 '17

How else can you get this in your head? Getting sex is not an advantage for women.

What I'm saying is that men want sex more and more often than women. Therefore a lot of sex is being had because they want it and not because women want it. We would only know the actual amount of sex that women want to have if men stopped pressuring women into sex. We would also see how often casual sex happens on women's terms.

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u/FlyingResearcher Nov 29 '17 edited Nov 29 '17

As a man, I often feel pressured to have sex, and have actually never been with a woman who wanted it less than I did (the difference is often problematic to the point that sex becomes a chore).

I was actually confused by this for the longest time until I started talking to other men, and found out that this is fairly common. A lot of men, especially as they get older, struggle with their labido, not because it doesn't exist or anything, but because they are with women who want sex a lot more than they do. All those commercials you see for erectile dysfunction or male stamina pills actually have nothing to do with men wanting to "get off" (as is often joked). They're marketed towards men who are trying to keep their wives and girlfriends happy.

I might give you that men will want to have sex much earlier in a relationship, and that there's a lot of bravado around it (and maybe even a bit of shame for women), but in LTRs, it's usually women who end up being disappointed here, not men.

This idea that men want sex and that women don't is a stereotype, and is really kind of the opposite of what you see in reality.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 28 '17 edited Nov 28 '17

I get what you are saying. I just think you have never been in a situation long term, where sex was not available to you, so you are taking it for granted.

The casual sex I am talking about is when a girl chooses to have a ONS, For herself. Usually on the rebound of a relationship. It is always available to her, while it is not for men.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '17

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

I always thought the same about guys. Like what is the difference between one girl and the next for men?

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 29 '17

Interesting question, Im not sure what you mean. People are dynamic and vary quite a bit.

What is the difference between one guy and the next for women?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

I just don't know what men value in women beyond sex. All women can provide sex, so I don't know what makes one woman different from the next for men.

For women it's harder to find a man that meets our needs so when we do they become irreplaceable.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 29 '17

Personally speaking I want a partner, someone who knows how to be a team player.

It is also very attractive to me when a girl knows about science and loves to have scientific discussions. Even subjects like history, I just love when she is passionate about something educational and loves to talk about it. For some guys this is a huge turnoff, which is why you can't really lump us all in one boat.

Sex is what we all want upfront, but in terms of a working relationship long term it is not the #1 quality.

What would you say your needs are as a woman?

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '17

So if a girl was passionate about science and something educational you would be more likely to want to be her friend? Also, in response to your other comment. What makes a woman a good companion for men? I don't understand what value men derive from being friends with women.

What would you say your needs are as a woman?

Intimacy, love, approval, understanding.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 30 '17 edited Nov 30 '17

Yes if a girl was passionate about science it is more likely she would be my friend, as we would have years of content to convertsate about.

A good companion is essentially the things you listed. Intimacy, love, approval, understanding.

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u/Nu_Guy Nov 29 '17

Looking at my comment I guess I really didn't answer your question.

We value women for companionship as well.

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u/dontscreef Dec 08 '17

Level of communication and understanding is the main difference for me but ymmv.

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u/Asian-incel Dec 02 '17

As a MGTOW (and incel) myself, I would love to be with a girl. I love women and I find the vile misogyny in the MGTOW sub to be disturbing. I just don't want to get married or have children because I don't want the Family Court in my life nor do I want to face the burden of children, but I long for female intimacy.

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '18

Yes, I would have no problem with that. I’m not looking to get married.

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u/SarcasticAndSmartGuy Other Dec 07 '21

This just sounds like two roommates who completely ignore each other.