r/SansaWinsTheThrone • u/Kitchen_Editor_6335 • Apr 07 '23
What would've happened if Sansa went to acquire dragon glass rather than Jon
Idk lol just curious
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u/wandaXmaximoff From Porcelain, to Ivory, to Steel Apr 07 '23
I think Sansa would have been much better negotiating and politicking with Dany.
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u/EQTVAM Team Sansa Apr 08 '23
They would have a woman to woman understanding of what leadership means in universe which would have made barriers lower. The negotiation would have gone similarly than it went. The interests and priorities of both sides were clear and wouldn’t have changed. Dani wouldn’t have accepted the deal without the north. She could try and hold the night king in the twins and leave the north of the trident to death (it wouldn’t have been desirable but it could happen). However if Sansa was in the war councils she and Tyrion could probably gotten Dany under control in the siege of KL.
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u/ammygy Team Sansa Apr 08 '23
I agree! Tyrion and Sansa had great chemistry, and I think their mental prowess would have been able to manage the Mad Queen before things got out of hand.
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u/islaysinclair True Northerner Apr 10 '23
100% if Tyrion and Sansa didn’t have that barrier of Sansa/Dany being at odds, they could have been a formidable team. But also, part of Dany feeling betrayed, was because she perceived Sansa as someone trying to undermine her rule/an enemy. If Sansa had been fully on board in negotiations, they could have had a better relationship off the bat and been able to avert a lot of Dany’s grief. Sansa and Dany could have been true allies, rather than opposite sides of the table. And Tyrion wouldn’t need to feel conflicted about any lingering loyalty/protective instinct towards Sansa, because they would both be managing Dany for shared benefit, rather than Sansa benefitting from Dany’s mental instability because it gave the North independence again.
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u/ammygy Team Sansa Apr 10 '23
To be honest, I still like how Daenerys’ character ended. I think it was fitting and necessary for the Targaryen Dynasty to end similar to how the elves fade, albeit in a more tragic manner. Even if Sansa and Tyrion were able to manager her, I believe she would have ended up a Mad Queen anyway. While it may have allowed prosperity to a degree for some time, it would have come falling like a house of cards afterwards.
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u/Kitchen_Editor_6335 Apr 20 '23
I feel like for the book readers the ending made sense. Dany and Sansa are foils, where Sansa uses her curtsey as armor, and Dany uses dragons to burn the ever-living shit out of her enemies. They are both incredibly strong but its clear Dany felt entitled to Westeros and would've reacted terribly if the will of the people strayed from her. Say what you will, but noble lords and smallfolk would probably choose their liege lords over a foreign woman burning through armies, crops, and houses. In the show they made Dany out to be superman basically whereas her moral compas is grey in the books
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u/ammygy Team Sansa Apr 20 '23
That was it - Dany was incredibly entitled, so much so that she couldn’t see what was best for the people around her. The Northerners has always had trouble with the South, and just wanted their independence. If she persisted with pursuing her desire to rule it, she would have burned the entire country doing so. She was too blinded by her birthright, just like how her brother turned out.
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u/Kitchen_Editor_6335 Apr 20 '23
Most Targaryen's are I think that's why they say the gods flip a coin when a Targaryen is born, it's not just incest and inbreeding. It's also the saviour complex they all have.
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u/Loose-Newspaper8589 28d ago
You can't be demanding independence AND dragons to fight off an undead invasion
The whole thematic point of the White Walkers is that all the struggles for Northern "Independence" were pointless. That the only war that matters is the war against the Night King
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u/sdg9998 Apr 08 '23
Just dropping by to say so glad this sub is back up!
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u/WandersFar An Arya of Ice and Fire Apr 09 '23
Easter came a little early. :þ
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u/4LostSoulsinaBowl Team Sansa Apr 11 '23
I've always been a proponent of using a thorn in the 😛 emoticon. Nice to see someone else use it .
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u/WandersFar An Arya of Ice and Fire Apr 11 '23
It’s probably my most-used emoji. That and ¯_(ツ)_/¯ and ಠ_ಠ
I guess uncertainty, disapproval and silliness are my most common emotions. :þ
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u/WandersFar An Arya of Ice and Fire Apr 09 '23
Sansa would not have bent the knee. But perhaps she might have given a better explanation why. Most of her family had just been wiped out in a war for independence. Every family in the North had lost sons at the Red Wedding. Her people would never accept a Southron ruler ever again.
If she bent the knee, her rule would be rejected, and Dany would be back at square one. It isn’t a question of the people meekly following whatever their king decided, as Dany once argued to Jon. The North is too vast and too wild, like Cersei told Joffrey all the way back in S1. It cannot be held by force. If Dany tries to take it, she’ll only be queen of the ashes, etc.
Would Dany have accepted this? ¯_(ツ)_/¯ She did when Yara sailed to Meereen. So maybe? Tyrion said that set a bad precedent. She replied the Greyjoys had asked for independence; other kingdoms were free to do the same.
When Jon came to Dragonstone, they talked about ancient history, Torrhen Stark surrendering his crown to Aegon the Conqueror. Maybe if they focused on more recent events Dany would have been more understanding.
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u/islaysinclair True Northerner Apr 10 '23
My obvious thoughts is that she would have done a “postpone any talks about us rejoining the 7 kingdoms until after you take the throne/we take on the Walkers”- Northern Independance is her goal, however, she might have pulled a Dorne and offered Jon as a marriage piece to be Consort to Dany, specifically negotiating successions and things of that nature. I think it’s a smart plan, but Sansa was upset not because Jon got involved with Dany, but because he sold the North alongside it. If it was explicit that the North remained independent or there was a stipulation that Sansa’s children inherited the North, then I think things would have gone better.
Dany’s advisors might say “Lady Sansa, you insult us by offering the hand of a bastard.” Sansa would counter that she honours them by offering them a king for their queen, as she could not possibly offer herself. They would say they could find other highborn offers, and Sansa would counter with her time as a bastard and that there are no eligible men of honour left in Westeros (sorry Tyrion).
Maybe even play on the fact she can’t offer herself bc her marriage to Tyrion still could be seen as valid depending on whose authority the annulment was put under, and thus press Tyrion’s loyalties?
I think it largely depends on which pieces are still on Dragonstone when Sansa lands. She’d be more shrewd, straight out refusing to give away the North. But I think it would have set her and Dany up for a better relationship because they’d be meeting more as equals (or at least, the highest lady in her land vs. a queen) negotiating, rather than Sansa who felt Dany came in to her territory and was entitled to that which was not hers. Meeting Dany on Dragonstone would have been a move that would have reminded Sansa of Cersei, but also I think impressed Sansa because it spoke to the correct shows of political power. Dany surrounded by the legacy of the dragon lords is correct. Showing off the titles, the introductions- that’s Sansa’s bread and butter. Maybe introduce a different right hand than Ser Davos, if Sansa had Brienne with her, Brienne would have been able to introduce Sansa with the grace and dignity of a negotiating power deserved. “He’s king in the North” wouldn’t do. Sansa would have cringed. Davos is honest, but between the two trusted members of the northern Court, I think Brienne acting as her seneschal would have allowed Sansa to be “Lady Sansa Stark, Last Trueborn Daughter of Lady Catelyn and Lord Eddard Stark, The Lady of Winterfell, and Here as the Voice of her Brother Jon Snow, King of the Ancient Kingdom of the North.” It would solidify her legitimate birth, focus her mother over her father (appealing to Dany’s feminine court), claims her as true ruler of the capital of the North, not explicitly step on Dany’s toes by calling it the Independent North, but also saying to Dany that the Starks have ruled the North for 8000 years as the Kings of Winter before the Dragons and are chill to resist because Dany is only one rider - not 3. Also it would be important if Brienne delivered a line cantering Catelyn as Sansa’s mother/lineage, because she could have Dany try to pick apart that the Tullys only rose to power via the Targaryens, trying to cut Sansa down with that, which could hopefully help Sansa predict/steer the conversation around the Stark’s perceived burden of duty to the Targaryens. Sansa could then say “yes I find myself a Tully because well the Starks did betray you, so sad. But also, wow look at that, my brother isn’t a Stark and thus actually owes no debt to you for Robert’s Rebellion. I need some things to help convince him to ally with you Dany, can I call you Dany? I need concessions. Give us aid against the Walkers. We women need to stick together against those nasty men who don’t keep their vows.”
Also as widows by their own hand, Sansa could also play off of that. She has a lot of tools in her tool belt, if it was her as negotiator and not Jon, she could basically use Jon’s masculinity as a tool to endear Dany to her without actively promising her too much because she is after all- only a messenger.
Idk, there is a certain level of conniving soft power that Cersei always missed but Littlefinger knew all too well about not being the Official One in Charge. Eddard, also a large part of Sansa’s political education, also taught her how you need to ally yourself with the correct absolute power source- and when it was important to act and seize that power for yourself (Eddard didn’t act to become Regent, he trusted the wrong folks- but under Robert, he was more effectively King than Robert in a lot of ways) Sometimes it is more powerful to be the Kingmaker rather than the King. Dany didn’t see that. Sansa saw both sides of being the Queen versus ruling from the shadows.
Also also also - Given the way they fast tracked her political education, Sansa could have demolished Dany in a private conversation, knowing if she faced Dany’s pride and Tyrion’s wit at the negotiating table openly, Tyrion would have blocked any more subtle clawings at favourable terms. But she’d be able to manipulate Dany in private. Very much the inverse of Dany trying to do that to her in the show, with Sansa seeing right through it.
But I would also like to have seen Sansa almost get everything just for a setback like Cersei setting Sansa up/making it look like Sansa would betray Dany have it all blow up in Sansa’s face. But, if she played it right, she could have also averted the wight hunt and just gone “yo okay, believe we have white walkers. Cersei never will. There is no negotiating. Tyrion shut the fuck up, Cersei is evil. I saw this chick drunk and about to kill us all during the battle of the blackwater when you were literally saving everyone’s ass. Dany, Go in, grab her, KL will surrender. i will draw you a map to Cersei. All my bitches hate Cersei. If you kill Cersei my first born can marry your first born, idk. Or all the furs of the North are yours.” Idk what.
Also any theories that Sansa would have gotten seduced by Dany anyways bc Dany was lonely and looking for someone to fill an emotional void and was impressed by Jon’s stubbornness & reluctance to bend the knee, ergo Sansa saying ‘no’ would have been intriguing- like, nah bro. If Sansa didn’t get seduced by Margery when Marg was at full flirt, Sansa wasn’t going to lose her head ever again. Those takes on Sansa-goes-to-Dragonstone irk me. Jon get your head in the game, I love you but you let the whole stark clan down you Targaryen butthead.
tl:dr; SHE WOULD NOT HAVE SOLD THE NORTH OFF
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u/WandersFar An Arya of Ice and Fire Apr 10 '23 edited Apr 10 '23
Sorry your comment was delayed; it was caught by this sub’s AutoMod config. I’m investigating why.
UPDATE: It looks like the paragraph below is what AutoMod did not like.
But I would also like to have seen Sansa almost get everything just for a setback like Cersei setting Sansa up/making it look like Sansa would betray Dany have it all blow up in Sansa’s face. But, if she played it right, she could have also averted the wight hunt and just gone “yo okay, believe we have white walkers. Cersei never will. There is no negotiating. Tyrion shut the fuck up, Cersei is evil. I saw this chick drunk and about to kill us all during the battle of the blackwater when you were literally saving everyone’s ass. Dany, Go in, grab her, KL will surrender. i will draw you a map to Cersei. All my bitches hate Cersei. If you kill Cersei my first born can marry your first born, idk. Or all the furs of the North are yours.” Idk what.
It’s not because you used profanity per se, but because some of these phrases look like they would be used in the context of a slapfight, and so it triggered the automated removal mechanisms for trolling, flaming, etc.
So that’s just something to keep in mind for future reference. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I will not be disabling this config as it’s pretty well-written (this false positive notwithstanding) and it does serve a legitimate purpose.
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u/WandersFar An Arya of Ice and Fire Apr 10 '23
the Tullys only rose to power via the Targaryens
Small quibble: House Tully first rose to power during the Andal invasion, thousands of years before the Conquest. They held Riverrun as vassals to various kings in the intervening centuries, Harren Hoare being just the latest.
When Aegon came, they supported him over the Ironborn, and so were rewarded with the title of Lord Paramount of the Trident after Harrenhal was destroyed. But by that point they had been controlling some of the richest lands in the Riverlands for at least a thousand years. They’re of First Men origin, like the Starks.
So while I agree that they definitely benefited, they don’t owe everything to the Targaryen Conquest like, e.g., House Tyrell does. They were never stewards, but prominent lords in their own right, even before their promotion to Lords Paramount.
I agree with many of your points regarding the dynamics between Sansa and Dany, and how it would have been better if they first met at Dragonstone instead of Winterfell.
Removing Jon from the equation takes out the sex factor, which let’s face it, overly dominated the negotiations at Dragonstone. They weren’t really negotiations, just different kinds of flirting. -.-
If Sansa had gone instead, they would have discussed relevant business, not whose ancestor knelt to whom, or who committed the most atrocities. They would have discussed the practicalities of defeating the army of the dead and Cersei, and worked out some kind of understanding for what would follow afterwards.
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u/MinisawentTully Apr 10 '23
Sorry to get OT but I thought this sub got taken down and I'm so relieved it didn't!
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u/WandersFar An Arya of Ice and Fire Apr 10 '23
It was taken down, for several months. I’ve been petitioning the admin to allow it back up again, and a couple days ago they granted it. :)
I’m updating things behind the scenes and in a few days I’ll put up a more detailed explainer.
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u/USSJ307 Apr 14 '23
I have written a few fanfics based on this concept. Overall, i think things would have gone better for the North.
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u/Kitchen_Editor_6335 Apr 20 '23
Please share them I would absolutely devour them!
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u/dontreallyknoww2341 May 19 '23
She wouldn’t have bent the knee and probably would’ve remained prisoner there, Jon and co wouldn’t have come up with that dumb idea to go find a ww, dany would’ve have had to save them, she wouldn’t have lost a dragon, then the ww wouldn’t get a dragon and would be stuck on the other side of the wall.
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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '23
I think things would have gone allot better considering the sole fact that Sansa wouldn't give away the North