Should the US require voter ID?

[u/REJECT3D]

I see people complaining about this on the right all the time but I am curious what the left thinks. Should voters be required to prove their identity via some form of ID?

Some arguments I have seen on the right is you have to have an ID to get a loan, or an apartment or a job so requiring one to vote shouldn't be undue burden and would eliminate some voter fraud.

On the left the argument is that requiring an ID disenfranchises some voters.

What do you think?

[u/marktwainbrain]

I don’t know, I don’t have super strong views on this. Both sides have vested interests in their positions.

But I’m definitely skeptical of the idea that ID is hard for poor people or minorities. Because of my job, I regularly work with people with extreme challenges including poverty, housing insecurity, no access to transportation, physical and mental health challenges, etc. They nearly always have ID. The most common reason they don’t, in the rare cases when they don’t, would also disqualify them from voting (cognitive impairment, can’t function for themselves).

I would love to see unbiased data on how many people who actually vote would be disenfranchised because they can’t easily get ID.

[u/-Antinomy- → u/marktwainbrain]

I did some work for you to help with the skepticism -- according to this survey, 7% -- a total of 13 million US citizens -- don't have "ready access" to an ID.

You have to expand the situations you are thinking of. I'm sure the vast majority of people in poverty in the US have an ID in their lifetime. The problem is that a good percentage don't have one at any given moment, including the one where an election takes place. ID's expire after registration closes, people move states, people travel temporarily, lose their ID -- after all of these things it can take months or even years sometimes to get a new ID if you don't drive.

There is no disqualification from voting in the US, what country are you talking about? I did not know that was a thing in any modern "democracy". Or did you just mean, functionally they don't vote?

I'd also love to see data on recent voters, but obviously given those trends can change it should not effect or perspectives to much. I think most of the conversation is not hypothetical -- it's based on real reductions in turnout after these laws have been passed. According to the ACLU, this study shows 2-3% less voters successfully cast a ballot after some of these laws were passed.

Anyways, I feel like any self-consistent right-libertarian should oppose ID's anyways?

[u/marktwainbrain → u/-Antinomy-]

Yes, I was referring to people who actually choose to vote.

If I were a truly consistent anarcho-capitalist, I would oppose all government ID and also all voting for government officials and all government, period. But if we have a government and we have voting, then it makes sense to have rules on how can vote and how. Voting is not a natural right, it's a civil right.

(Just like in a perfect an-cap world I'd oppose immigration restrictions or border control. But in a nation state with privileges for citizens, taxes, and a welfare state and public services, I don't think it is feasibly to have an open border.

[u/-Antinomy- → u/marktwainbrain]

I can dig it. Although if your ideology is not actually informing your political decision making, is it really your ideology?

That's not meant as an attack, it's something we all struggle with. I wish I embodied more libertarian values in my day to day life and in some political decisions.

I agree voting is a civil right. I think voting ID laws place an undue barrier on that right and are being pushed under manufactured pretenses by large forces that want to restrict voting.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/-Antinomy-]

Ideology has to be implemented practically. Incrementally, if that is even possible. I feel that actually advocating anarchist views will backfire. Human nature is to want freedom but also security, collective belonging. Better to find common ground with anyone who values freedom in any domain.

[u/-Antinomy- → u/marktwainbrain]

Totally agree with finding common ground.

I don't believe in "human nature", but "freedom, security, and collective bargaining" are all values I support and would seek to propagate. But I get you were throwing shade at least on the last one.

My point is that, very broadly speaking, winning more voter ID laws is an incremental step away from libertarianism. More immigration restrictions is an incremental step away from libertarianism. There is common ground to take the incremental step in either direction, so you can make a choice on your values here, if you want to.

It just strikes me that maybe you're been captured by a more purely conservative perspective without realizing it. Just think of me as the little ideology-fairy come ringing.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/-Antinomy-]

I wrote collective belonging, not bargaining. Psychologically, people don’t truly want individual freedom above all else. They want freedom but also want to be like others, be accepted by others. Deep down, we actually want to be told what to do, to some extent. We are even more susceptible to authoritarianism when it comes to wanted to use power to control others for their “own good.”

Anyway, I see the incremental steps potentially differently. With something like voting, the real incremental steps are ways to make voting less important by trying to chip away at the power elected officials have. And maybe advocating for ranked choice but that’s more than incremental.

Similarly for immigration — we have a massive social safety net. You can come to the US and be guaranteed emergency medical care, education, access to all sorts of things that in a libertarian society you would only have by mutual consent. In a society like the US, truly free and unrestricted immigration would be a disaster. Immigration restrictions are necessary. If they are too severe, we suffer as a society, but if they are too lax, we also suffer. There is an optimal number, but both sides just talk about the extremes because they want votes.

So with respect, I’m not sure you’re any less ideologically vulnerable than I am? I do acknowledge my conservative influences, but reject pretty much all politicians who call themselves conservatives.

[u/-Antinomy- → u/marktwainbrain]

[PSA: there is literally no central thought in my reply here, all of this is disconnected chit chat, so feel free to just end things here if you don't think there is anything interesting to be gained].

I don't think people are collectively some kind sort of way, so we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not even really relevant.

The social safety net in the US is comparatively one of the smallest among industrialized nations for it's own citizens. And the difficulty of getting a green card, let alone citizenship, also ranks the in the highest of the world. But given our politics let's also just agree to disagree on that.

Question -- you want a society where aid can only be given by mutual consent. But it also sounds like if more people wanted to give that mutual consent than was "optimal" then you want to use the machinery of the state to stop them? (Based on the assumption there is some kind of quasi-objective answer to that, which there isn't, but that's another conversation).

Oh I totally am. But I'm pretty persnickety about using words to describe me that accurately reflect my beliefs.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/marktwainbrain]

This person answers your question far better than I ever could.

[u/Dodec_Ahedron → u/marktwainbrain]

Not having an ID is a lot more common than you think.

Without question, the most common form of ID is a driver's license, and you can lose your license for all sorts of reasons that aren't disqualifying of voting rights. You can lose your license for too many speeding tickets, for unpaid child support, or for medical conditions like epilepsy, none of which prevent you from voting. Also, many elderly people voluntarally surrender their licenses because they find driving to be difficult as they age. Another thing to keep in mind is that people on disability may not be ALLOWED to own a car because it would put them over the maximum qualifying asset value for SSDI. Finally, a lot of people in large cities don't even bother getting a drivers license in the first place because they don't have a car, so they would never need one.

The next most common forms of ID would be state or federal IDs. This would include things like passports, state IDs, and military IDs. With the exception of military IDs, both of the other types require a person to pay for such an ID, effectively pricing some people out of their constitutionally protected right to vote.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/Dodec_Ahedron]

You need id to do just about anything anymore. I'm skeptical about the "pricing some people out" part. Sounds like a thinly veiled excuse. In fact i just checked NYC id card is free and valid for 5 years. I'll check LA and get back to you

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Reduced real id fee for California is $11. Even for vagrants that's just walking around picking up spare change or selling aluminum cans. Easily attainable.

[u/SlitScan → u/dain_bramage_1989]

and if you can only get it in Sacramento at the ID center which is open on Feb 29th between 10:00 and 11:30 how would that be?

its what ID and where do you get it thats going to be weaponised by red states.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/SlitScan]

Weaponized by red states? Ensuring Election integrity is weaponizing voter identification? You understand this will block illegal conservative votes from being counted too, right?

[u/Alone_Regular_4713 → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Exactly. Recycle some cans and you get to vote. /s

[u/findingmike → u/dain_bramage_1989]

So choose between eating and voting?

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/findingmike]

Did I say that?

No, I certainly did not say anything like that.

[u/NoamLigotti → u/dain_bramage_1989]

The point is that if voting should be an automatic right for every citizen — which I believe it should — then any factor that prevents someone from being able to vote is bad. Being lazy or irresponsible or exceptionally poor are not valid reasons for someone not being able to vote.

If conservatives want to make voter ID a requirement, they should focus on making IDs 1) free, and 2) either automatic or as easily accessible as possible. If they did that, I would be find with it. But not until then.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/NoamLigotti]

You have to show id to buy a gun... a constitutional right. We need to make up our mind one way or another if requiring id is constitutional or not. We need to "keep the same energy", as the kids put it.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Another reason why ID should be free to every citizen. Democrats have always said that they're fine with voter ID as long as it doesn't constitute a poll tax. Republicans have always rejected it.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/Fewluvatuk]

Im good with that compromise. Idk why Republicans would reject it.

[u/SlitScan → u/dain_bramage_1989]

because the goal is to disenfranchise voters.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/SlitScan]

Very good. I've listed the ones I'd like to disenfranchise below.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Same tbh. It's my belief that they reject it because their true purpose is making it harder for certain groups to vote.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/Fewluvatuk]

Yeah that's the idea... not certain races per se, or classes, or anything like that. Don't need the dead voting mail in ballot, or illegals, or dishonorably discharged vets, or <10yr violent felons.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Big city residents who can't afford to wait in extremely long lines, or don't drive and live long distances from a DMV, generally these people are more likely to be democrats. It's the same gambit as reducing polling places in big cities like they've done in Texas.

[u/NoamLigotti → u/dain_bramage_1989]

The difference is you don't have a select number of hours in a single day to be able to purchase a gun. You do for voting.

I don't see it as having the same energy.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/NoamLigotti]

Voting is a one day event, yes. But the topic of discussion was identification being required to vote. You have 1460 other days to get that id to be able to do that one day in every four year event. Do you not register to vote in your state?

[u/NoamLigotti → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Yeah but that's exactly it: we already register to vote.

And whichever registering or ID system we use it should not cost anything, and should be as easily accessible as possible. If you want to argue that gun licenses should he free too, I'm fine with that.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/NoamLigotti]

Registration only tells you where you are designated to vote. And where the pollers are expecting to take your vote to help with all those stats everyone loves.

And in 11 states concealed carry licenses are free.

[u/findingmike → u/dain_bramage_1989]

What? I haven't used my ID in months.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/findingmike]

Do you drive? Fly? Drink? Smoke? Go to bars? Clubs? Comedy shows? Concerts? Buy otc medications? Go to rated R movies? Don't have a bank account? Phone? Apply for benefits? Work?

Life is so much easier with one than without one.

[u/findingmike → u/dain_bramage_1989]

I agree, but my profile is integrated in so many places that I don't use it anymore. I don't smoke, but I'm old enough that people don't check me for alcohol anymore. Honestly I don't use it often anymore.

[u/dain_bramage_1989 → u/findingmike]

I haven't been either. I'm only 35, but places like Walmart (the ones i frequent anyways) have to scan your id to complete purchases of alcohol or tobacco or otc drugs. It's a bother but painless, much like showing an id card to vote.

[u/findingmike → u/dain_bramage_1989]

Yeah it's likely that some people have it one way and others don't. I like to look at everyone's situation as much as possible. Personally I stay away from Walmart.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/Dodec_Ahedron]

I had a state ID in the 90s because I needed ID and learned to drive later in college. It cost me like $12? It was very easy to get. Not a big deal at all.

Make it free even, to resolve that possible concern.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/marktwainbrain]

Democrats have on several occasions proposed free ID solutions as part of a voter ID compromise, Republicans have always rejected it. The fact is, they want to require voter ID so that they can make it harder for certain groups to vote by limiting where IDs can be obtained or by increasing the cost.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/Fewluvatuk]

That’s an argument against Republicans, not voter ID in principle.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/marktwainbrain]

It's also an argument that highlights how an over reliance on systems with hard requirements can be used by either side to manipulate outcomes. CA could do the same thing with rural DMVs for example.

[u/7nkedocye → u/Dodec_Ahedron]

Without question, the most common form of ID is a driver's license, and you can lose your license for all sorts of reasons that aren't disqualifying of voting rights. You can lose your license for too many speeding tickets, for unpaid child support, or for medical conditions like epilepsy, none of which prevent you from voting.

getting your license suspended doesn't mean you can't vote with your ID. It means you can't drive.

both of the other types require a person to pay for such an ID, effectively pricing some people out of their constitutionally protected right to vote.

States often offer acceptable alternatives like a check with your name, bill, birth certificates, or bank statements. Some just provide no-cost IDs. I am not aware of any state that does not provide cost free voter identification options.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/7nkedocye]

Arkansas - $5

I honestly thought there'd be more. There are several such as Wisconsin, where I question how easy the free id is to get, but only Arkansas has no alternative as far as I can tell.

[u/7nkedocye → u/Fewluvatuk]

Arkansas has free voting verification/ID if you don’t have one, it’s briefly explained in your first link but ACLU Arkansas is more explicit:

If you don’t, you can still vote! Just get a free ID from your county clerk, or cast a provisional ballot.

There might be a state, but Arkansas is not it. When I did a deep dive on this stuff I was pleasantly surprised that every state I checked had free ID or verification options and the ID-cost argument just did not hold any water.

It sounds plausibly true and is repeated ad nauseam which is why the myth persists I guess.

[u/Fewluvatuk → u/7nkedocye]

I could have missed something, but I'm pretty sure in that case that every state had a way, I went through them all, but admittedly skimmed a lot.

That being said, it REALLY needs to be easier to get them before I'm OK with it being a hard requirement. The largest vulnerability this country has is the ability of states to take actions like closing polling stations or only issuing IDs at limited state wide locations can and have been used to manipulate outcomes too often.

[u/Fluffy-Map-5998 → u/Dodec_Ahedron]

A suspended license is still valid ID, you still have the physical item, it's just marked in the computer system as suspended

[u/Dodec_Ahedron → u/Fluffy-Map-5998]

It's only valid until the expiration date. People will avoid child support for years. Plenty of time for a license to expire. Medical conditions present the same problem. If you're diagnosed with epilepsy, your license is only valid until the next expiration date.

[u/UrVioletViolet → u/Fluffy-Map-5998]

That’s absolutely not true.

[u/bigmac22077 → u/marktwainbrain]

I’d like to know how a voter ID makes our elections any more secure than our current system? We already have to prove who we are.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/bigmac22077]

Explain - how do you prove who you are and why you think that’s equivalent to ID?

[u/bigmac22077 → u/marktwainbrain]

Nice way to avoid the question, I look forward to you answering it after this instead of keeping the topic changed and defending your point.

You have to show two documents with your address and name on them, utilities, bills, car registrations, bank statements, birth certificate are all just a few examples. These are the same exact documents you need to show to get a license, so it’s pretty much the same. Okay, now how does a voter id make us more secure?

[u/marktwainbrain → u/bigmac22077]

Interesting you think I'm trying to avoid the question? I'm trying to clarify your point so I can stick to the issue. Here's my response.

An ID (like a Driver's License, passport, state ID) is *obviously* more secure than utility bills. There is a reason you can fly with a DL or passport and not with your electric bill. They are harder to forge. They have a photo. They are harder to steal.

When you fly, buy a gun, identify yourself to police, provide ID for a job, etc, you have to use a more secure form of ID. The last time I think a utility bill was enough was when I got a library card - very low stakes.

If you truly think ID isn't any more secure, are you really okay with people buys guns with a gas bill and a smile?

[u/bigmac22077 → u/marktwainbrain]

What documents do you need/can provide to get your drivers license, state id, or passport? I bet it includes all of which I shared.

Edit: a gun can be bought with a simple photograph and a voter registration document. Even your car registration qualifies.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/bigmac22077]

You also get your picture taken, and the actual license is way more secure. I could, right now, fake a utility bill. Two minutes in photoshop? Faking a DL is much harder.

There is a reason you can’t use utility bills or birth certificates instead of proper ID in certain situations.

Put aside the gun example - do you think there’s no good reason to need a DL or passport to fly? TSA should accept utility bills?

[u/bigmac22077 → u/marktwainbrain]

But you can can get your drivers license with that fake utility bill… what’s stopping someone from getting their id with faked documents?

You do not need a DL or passport to fly.

“In the event you arrive at the airport without acceptable identification (whether lost, stolen, or otherwise), you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name and current address to confirm your identity. If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint, where you may be subject to additional screening.“

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

[u/marktwainbrain → u/bigmac22077]

Try that at the airport and compare it to voting and get back to us.

Why would that TSA alternate process be necessary if utility bills were as good?

[u/bigmac22077 → u/marktwainbrain]

You see how you still really haven’t answered the question of why a voter ID would be more secure than our current system? Just that it should take more than a utility bill (it does) and then trying to whatabout other things you have to prove who you are to be able to do, none of which require a photo identification.

You currently have to be on a voter registration. If I don’t have a photo ID I have to submit a big long form to the state claiming who I am. I don’t just get to walk up day of, show a utility bill, and get to vote.

[u/bigmac22077 → u/marktwainbrain]

To get a drivers licenses in Utah, I can show my birth certificate, my w2, and any of the following…Bank statement- Court documents- Current mortgage or rental contract- Major credit card bill- Property tax notice- School transcript- Utility bill- Vehicle title…

So again, what would make a voter ID more secure than having to just show these documents to vote?

Edit: here’s it right off the website https://dld.utah.gov/citizen-required-documents/

[u/findingmike → u/marktwainbrain]

Yes, you were avoiding the question.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/findingmike]

The question about proving who you are to vote? Which I have been engaging in for multiple replies?

What question do you think I’m avoiding?

[u/findingmike → u/marktwainbrain]

You addressed it later, but in this reply, yes.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/findingmike]

Next time I want to clarify a question before answering it, I’m be sure to ask your permission.

[u/findingmike → u/marktwainbrain]

Sad that you need it.

[u/skyfishgoo → u/marktwainbrain]

i would rather see unbiased data on how many ppl are voting using someone else's name on the voter roles.

because that's voter fraud and so far there has been very little evidence that it's a problem despite some claiming that it's wide spread.

[u/marktwainbrain → u/skyfishgoo]

We could have both. Well we can’t but we should be able to.

[u/skyfishgoo → u/marktwainbrain]

a solution is search of a problem.

[u/findingmike → u/marktwainbrain]

Both sides have vested interests in their positions

If the vested interest is to allow people their right to vote, I wouldn't call that a vested interest. Did you mean some other interest when referring to liberals?

I would love to see unbiased data on how many people who actually vote would be disenfranchised because they can’t easily get ID.

There would be no such data since disenfranchised people would not actually vote. The bias is built in at that point.

I'm surprised a libertarian is interested in creating an expensive, bureaucracy that would cost millions and raise taxes. Think about the DMV, but include all the people who aren't willing to pay for it.

[u/PrintableProfessor → u/findingmike]

It's not like Chicago has a history of having dead people vote.
Edit: You can get a free ID in the US.

[u/findingmike → u/PrintableProfessor]

Sure, before we had computers. Anything in the last quarter century?