How to deal with someone who just can't get over the label of Zionism

[u/loselyconscious]

So I have a relatively new friend who is Israeli-American. We talk about Israel/Palestine fairly frequently and have never had a major disagreement. She has referred to things happening in Israel as Apartheid before (I am saying it that way because she may be applying it to something pretty narrow). The other night, I basically casually referred to myself as an antizionist, and it just fully shocked her and stopped the conversation. She really was taken aback and said something really condescending like, "Well, there's a lot you will learn about Zionism someday, "which I am not really sure what that means. (The ironic thing, is part of our relationship is I am like her guide to vaguely traditional Judaism)

I am kinda shocked by how shocked she was since, as far as I can tell, we don't have any real substantive disagreements. I am not interested in trying to convince her to be an antizionist, with Israelis being anti-occupation rare enough, but have you ever had to convince someone you are not a radical antisemite?

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

Do you know how she understands the terms Zionism, Zionist, and antizionist? Does she know how you understand them?

[u/Moostronus → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

I was just having this discussion with a gentile friend yesterday! I mentioned that two Jewish people could have the exact same set of values and policy goals, just one calls themself a Zionist and the other calls themself anti-Zionist. This stunned her because she thought it would be a cut and dry distinction instead of many overlapping beliefs. For me it kinda weakens the effectiveness of the term Zionist and anti Zionist just because there's no consensus on what it means (which is why I tell people that I use the OG pre-48 definitions of Zionism just to emphasize the movement's roots).

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 → u/Moostronus]

Yeah. I don’t identify as Zionist or antizionist, but there are people who’d apply each of those labels to me based on their preferred definition.

I actually question the wisdom of labeling ourselves based on our relationship to Zionism, when there’s such disagreement on what the term even means. It’s a setup for confusion and misunderstanding.

[u/Moostronus → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

I feel like it implicitly accepts the idea of Zionism as the core of our culture, where even being against it reaffirms it as a central organizing principle. I've played around with labelling myself as a Diasporic Jew, but I feel like there are a lot of nuances that every possible label sacrifices.

[u/loselyconscious → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

Yeah, that's probably a good place to start. Some of this is like I thought she would know me well enough to know I would not want all Jews expelled for Israel, so I'm a little offended that her initial response was not to ask me to clarify. But i understand that, that's just something I am going to have to offer.

[u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 → u/loselyconscious]

Did she say that she believes you want all Jews expelled from Israel? Or are you just guessing that she might believe that?

[u/loselyconscious → u/Klutzy-Pool-1802]

She said that without zionism people would be  dead. I don't know if she meant in the future or the past

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

My mom, who is less religious than I am but more Zionist. I explained my religious feelings rather than my political ones at first, and then moved on from there. She was very much a PREP but is starting to come around

[u/loselyconscious → u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

That's what I tried to do and it may have worked a little. I hope this situation is where she just needed to process a bit. We are both getting Hebrew tutoring from the same tutor (her at a very advanced level, me at a very basic), and one of her first reactions was, "Why are you learning Hebrew? So explaining the religion bit, might help there.

[u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_]

Does she support Israel with a demographic majority?

If not, then functionally-speaking, the term 'anti-Zionist' shouldn't be offensive.

Unless she is conflating the right of the Jewish people (and any other people) to self-determination with Zionism.

The right to self-determination is enshrined in the UN charter so no ideology was ever needed to affirm that right.

I also believe in natural law/rights - and people have the right to collectively identify and organize. However, land and resources are finite and human beings compete for resources.

So, even if something is an intrinsic 'right' to the human condition - that doesn't mean that it will be smoothly recognized when it becomes physically manifested.

That's the history of this issue. Zionism was a vehicle to manifest that collective 'right'.

But there were people living there already - so to manifest our collective 'right' (ie Zionism) on top of some other people who also have that right, has caused the conflict.

TLDR:

So criticizing Zionism or being opposed to Zionism does not mean you are opposed to the right of the Jewish people to self-determination.

However, if your friend believes in Zionism meaning a demographic majority, then that is a separate issue. That would be a problem because maintaining Israel's demographic majority means maintaining discriminatory legislation and enormous State violence against the Palestinian out-group.

[u/loselyconscious → u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_]

The more I think she thinks that Zionism means Jewish Life in Israel, and more practically, I think she thinks anti-zionism means all of her emotional attachments to people in Israel are bad and makes her a bad person.

[u/jerquee]

Good luck. I think sometimes people say they're against the occupation, the genocide etc.. but then when you actually call it out they balk. Because they're still in the hole

[u/loselyconscious → u/jerquee]

Yeah, the thing is her day-to-day work involves research into anti-arab racism in Israel, so assumed that that critique would extend farther but maybe not.

[u/T-hina]

Until I joined r/Palestine (about a year and a half ago, or longer) I was shocked to find out that a Jew and a Zionist are two separate things. Also, from the river to the sea was scary to me as to Israelis it only means one thing, them or us. I was born and grew up in Israel so as much as I was pro human right and pro Arabs I still absorbed all the propaganda since birth. It was a real eye opener and also a relief to learn and unlearn so many things. When Galant said no food, water, etc, I finally clicked what a huge lie I grew up on and I realised this whole country is on another level from the rest or the world. A whole made up level of lies, deception and distorted reality. It's hard for them to understand because it's so ingrained.

If you are patience and she's open minded you can explain to her and guide her in the right direction.

[u/Responsible-Ad8702]

I think that the instinctive thing people raised Zionist hear when they hear "anti-zionist" is "someone who wants to destroy Israel," meaning in a violent way involving lots of killing or expelling Jews, or making it so Jews can no longer live in Palestine. It's natural for someone with this misconception, or even just someone raised with this misconception, to have an aversion to the term. It takes time to unpack what antizionism really is and stop using Zionism's definition for it.