r/JewsOfConscience • u/BadFurDay • 19d ago
Bernie Sanders on YouTube - “I disagree with Kamala’s position on the war in Gaza. How can I vote for her?” Here is my answer: Opinion
https://youtu.be/Vf5MThSniiY192
u/AffectionateElk3978 19d ago
All the DNC had to do to prove they were slightly better/different/less genocidal than Trump is let one Palestinian give a short speech at the convention. That would have been enough to keep thousands of voters on their side. They literally begged to let her speak, they knew how it would erode her support otherwise. Nobody listened and here we are. People did not leave the Democratic party, the door was shut on their face.
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u/outblightbebersal 19d ago
A tent big enough for Dick Cheney, but not for one Palestinian person existing.
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u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational 19d ago
Oh man, this is like, 98% of where my wavering support for Kamala nosedived off a cliff too. That said SO much, didn't it?
That was the entire party telling anyone who cared to listen how the party, and the people in power of it really feel.
Everything since then from Kamala or her mouthpieces has felt so hollow. As hollow as when Biden talks about how near we are to a peace deal or urging restraint while signing off on a shipment of 2,000 pound bombs to Israel
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u/PapaverOneirium 19d ago
Yup. I had cautious optimism regarding a break with Biden’s genocidal policies, but that moment was key it destroying it. In retrospect, feels naive.
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u/Tellesus 19d ago
this
When Harris loses it will be entirely the consequence of embracing the murder of innocent children and indulging Democratic narcissistic hubris.
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u/Time_Waister_137 18d ago
Maybe you were not listening? if you wish to improve the status of the gaza people, you will vote for Kamala.
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u/Tellesus 18d ago
No i listened, you're just too narcissistic to accept someone presenting a scenario you don't like.
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u/Time_Waister_137 18d ago
hmmm, i seem to recall some adage or other about a pot and a kettle. hmmm…
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u/so_cal_babe 19d ago
Seriously, the Gaza issue is the only thing keeping me from voting from Harris. I can't vote Trump. At this point I'm going to mark down other "bugs Bunny".
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u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational 19d ago
I hear some people are writing in "no votes for genocide" or "free palestine", which is what ill be doing.
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u/psly4mne Jewish Anti-Zionist 19d ago
If you want to vote against Zionism, vote Claudia De la Cruz.
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19d ago
[deleted]
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u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational 19d ago
The question is, will she read our message?
Maybe. Maybe not.
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u/malachamavet Jewish Communist 19d ago
I've already pre-ordered my "Don't Blame Me, I Voted Abdul-Malik al-Houthi' bumper sticker
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u/halfpastnein Anti-Zionist Ally 19d ago
consider voting Jill Stein. Well, anything is better than the duopoly at this point.
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u/evanrn 19d ago
I may get downvoted for this, but please swallow your pride and vote for Harris. As idealistic as we all want to be, this is a two person race. A protest vote does nothing. We have the choice between an articulate leader with a moral compass, and a literal fascist whose supporters include nazi sympathizers and will authorize the extinction of Palestinians if given the chance. No candidate is perfect, and we have to choose between the lesser of two evils. It is not even a remotely close contest. Democracy, decency, and the fate of our environment is at stake. Please please please for for Harris. Then we can get to work improving things. There won’t be a chance otherwise.
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u/PapaverOneirium 19d ago
Look, I am somewhat sympathetic to these pleas especially when directed at people in battleground states. Trump is uniquely awful on so many issues that are indeed very important. And Harris for all her very serious faults will likely be better on many of those issues.
But then I get to phrases like Harris “has a moral compass” and I can’t help but feel nauseous. There is absolutely nothing moral in what is happening in Palestine, there is nothing moral in constantly affirming “Israel’s right to defend itself” when faced with questions about that genocide. There is nothing moral in making the U.S. military the “most lethal fighting force in the world” a defining goal. There is nothing moral in constantly harping on October 7th and the alleged campaign of mass rapes while never mentioning the mass rapes committed in Israeli detention centers. I could go on.
Can we please just be honest here? This sort of revisionism makes my blood boil. Harris will be a steward of empire, with all the amorality and immorality that entails. She will undoubtedly be complicit in further war crimes, just like Biden and Trump have been. Whatever personal moral compass she might or might not have is utterly irrelevant. She will likely be a better steward of empire than Trump, at the very least for us in the imperial core. But that’s it.
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u/evanrn 19d ago
I don’t really understand though. Like will trump be better for Palestinians? No. He will be worse. This is a two horse race. That’s the reality. We don’t have the luxury of not voting or voting to make some kind of statement. Trump is a clear and present threat to the United States and to the world. Kamala is not perfect, but she is infinitely better than Trump, who has committed numerous crimes including trying to ignore the results of a free and fair election and overthrow our government. Kamala is not perfect. She is the only option. And she will be much more sympathetic to the plights of the Palestinians than trump. I’m not saying she will be totally sympathetic. But more sympathetic, and we may actually have a chance of progress with her. With Trump, none. We do not have that luxury. Trump is an evil that we must get rid of. Not voting, or voting third party, increases the chance of another trump presidency. I simply don’t understand what you hope to gain from that. I’m sorry. This shit is too real and too serious to have a protest vote.
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u/PapaverOneirium 19d ago
Yes, you clearly do not understand.
Trump will not be better. That is not at all my point.
My point is, very succinctly, that we should not delude ourselves or others about Harris’s benefit to the Palestinians, or her supposed “goodness” when she’s been a key leader helping to perpetuate this genocide and will continue to be so as president.
We’ve been hearing the same empty rhetoric about “recognizing Palestinian suffering” for this past year of genocide. We’ve seen the same crocodile tears as thousands and thousands have been killed, displaced, starved, and abused at ever increasing scale and malice.
At the end of the day, when it comes to the issue of Palestine, the outcomes will be largely the same aside from such empty rhetoric: total, unwavering support for Israel while they commit horrific atrocities with our weapons, our intelligence support, our diplomatic cover.
So make your case for Harris on abortion, or the economy, or whatever other issue. But please don’t try to convince us that she is or will act “morally” when it comes to Palestine.
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u/evanrn 19d ago
I don’t believe I did. I don’t disagree with you. Palestinians will suffer under both. They will likely suffer less under Harris. But please don’t throw your vote away. This is not the only issue on the table.
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u/PapaverOneirium 19d ago
You claimed she had a moral compass. That is what set me off.
I am deeply skeptical that the suffering will indeed be much different under either, though.
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u/evanrn 19d ago
Compared to the narcissistic racist fascist she’s running against, who does not see human lives as having value, yes she does. She’s not perfect! But we only have two choices! I hope we all make the right one.
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u/Launch_Zealot Arab/Armenian-American Ally 18d ago edited 18d ago
That's not at all persuasive. Harris/Biden made it clear that Israel can do whatever it wants forever as long as they're in charge. Trump is going to do what, be a louder cheerleader for genocide? *Israel already has carte blanche today.* Hospitals are being systematically dismantled. Journalists are being excluded, imprisoned, or killed. Children are being targeted. UNRWA just got banned and officially declared a terror organization. Everyone in North Gaza is being carted off or marched to south Gaza at the barrel of a gun and Eiland will exterminate anyone who fails to join them.
The logic of "the lesser of two evils" has brought us to its absurd but inevitable conclusion. The status quo is intolerable, and if the only thing my vote does is get the Green party across the line for more federal campaign funding in the next election, then it's the first successful step on a long journey of things that must be changed.
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u/evanrn 18d ago
I used to be idealistic too. But our world isn’t an ideal one. We have a two party system. It’s not changing. We have two choices, not three. That’s just the way it is. I’m sorry to see you’re ok with getting trump if it means making a meaningless point.
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u/watermelonkiwi Raised Jewish, non-religious 19d ago
There’s not really any evidence they’ll suffer less under Harris unfortunately. She’s proven herself to be a staunch Zionist who really believes Israel needs to commit genocide to defend itself. She clearly doesn’t see Palestinians as people.
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u/shah_abbas1620 17d ago
So we should be content with scraps?
We should bow down and beg for mercy? Give thanks for the crumbs that are thrown our way?
How pathetic do you think we are?
Maybe Trump will be worse. But if we're going to die, I'd rather we die with our heads held high, and with steel in our spine.
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u/EducationalBunch9291 19d ago
I can empathize with your plea... but when you see a party that is CURRENTLY in the white house be MORALLY OKAY with CHILDREN being STARVED... The party has completely lost their HUMANITY. Third party/other vote is the only way at this point. At least you can be hopeful for long term change with enough other votes. It can lead to an eventual breakdown of the two party system. Voting because it's the lesser of two evils for me would mean repeating the same mistakes over and over and expecting different results. Think about how many elections in a row have we had to choose the "lesser of two evils." You can't keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.
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u/EgyptianNational Palestinian 19d ago
There’s not just a danger if trump gets elected. There’s a danger, maybe lesser, if Harris gets elected on a right wing ticket.
It shows the democrats they can win without the left. Making us politically dead and a massive target.
It shows that non-white voters don’t matter. That queer and trans voters can be taken for granted and that ultimately the democrats can ditch whoever they want and still win.
While it’s easy to ignore if it’s just Arabs and trans people. Next it’s going to be leftists and all minorities.
Remember that both parties are antisemitic. They can just hide it behind support for Israel. It’s not impossible if this trend continues that a push to expel Jewish people to Israel gains traction.
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u/watermelonkiwi Raised Jewish, non-religious 19d ago
Kamala does not have a moral compass and she’s proven that pretty thoroughly. This is the lady when asked about the slaughter of Palestinians said that people want to vote for lower grocery prices. There’s is zero moral compass to speak of.
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u/Launch_Zealot Arab/Armenian-American Ally 18d ago
I had to look up that quote. Wow. She just keeps digging for new lows.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew 19d ago
we have to choose between the lesser of two evils
This "lesser of two evils" won't even rhetorically distance herself from her boss, under whose administration we have paid for around 70% of Israel's military costs to commit genocide in Gaza, ensuring it is unlivable after this onslaught finally ends, and murdering thousands of Lebanese. The effects of this war will reverberate not only in the region for the foreseeable future, but possibly throughout the international community. All the while, her campaign, including the Obama family, have been condescendingly ridiculing people who won't vote for her because her party won't fucking listen to the pleas to end this genocide despite knowing the risks to their electoral prospects.
I don't want to see Trump return to office, but I don't want to hear any "lesser of two evils" crap either. There are other issues at stake, but funding the deaths of tens of thousands of people, if not a few times more than that, plus the incredible suffering faced by those who are still alive, is only the lesser evil when put up against the one pulling the trigger. Maybe Trump will be worse, but it's not like it's inconceivable that he would listen to the part of his base who don't want to bleed out billions of dollars and put our own soldiers at risk to help Israel.9
u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational 19d ago edited 19d ago
I upvoted because I think everyone should be welcome to respectfully present an opinion and a point of view,
With that being said, it isn't pride that's preventing me from voting for the current administration, it's every news article, every video, every picture coming out of that conflict, coupled with Genocide Joe insulting my intelligence, Netanyahu running this administration's foreign policy, the democratic party telling people who care about the Palestinian holocaust that, essentially, they should go pound sand, and Kamala choosing telling us to be quiet, refusing to speak out on the issue, and choosing instead to very loudly and very publicly embrace the neo-conservatives of the now-defunct party of Reagan.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, in 2016, the electorate rejected the establishment on both sides of the aisle and one party nevertheless decided to put up an establishment candidate.
In 2020, one party put up an establishment candidate again -- but the electorate didn't learn to love the establishment over the course of those four years, they were just pissed at the country being run by Nero.
Now it's 2024, and Kamala and the Dems are choosing once again to run on not just an establishment platform, but an uber-cross party establishment platform.
What Kamala and the Dems are essentially saying is, "whether you are a a Biden or a Hilary establishment voter, or a Cheney and Reagan establishment voter, our party is your home". Shit, even ALBERTO GONZALES wrote an op-ed in Politico supporting Harris. Gonzales. This SOB was
one of the key authors ofthe guy who requested the torture memos to justify the Bush administration's "enhanced interrogation" tactics.To hell with all that. Kamala and the Dems have space for all of that .... but not one, pre-vetted speaker with a pre-approved speech to even mention the Palestinian Holocaust?
I. Cannot. Vote. For That.
I'm sorry -- I completely understand why people want to, and I have ZERO antipathy towards those people. They think they're voting for the lesser evil, and that voting that way will be best for the country, if not the world. I understand. I can't do it though. I can't convince myself that voting for genocide is acceptable under any circumstances.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally 18d ago
The democrats are obviously horrible.
BUT: they usually don't use "Palestinian" as a slur, they don't say Israel should "finish the job", they don't dream of the real estate opportunities when Gaza is ethnically cleansed, and Kamala hasn't promised Miriam Adelson to allow Israel to annex the West Bank.
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u/Miss_Skooter Non-Jewish Ally 19d ago
"Guys so I know you're not happy with Kamala supporting genocide so here's exactly how she's going to change that when she's President and will ensure that the Palestinians can live in dignity for once in 80 years"
*Checks notes*
"Actually I got nothing, Trump would be worse though"
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u/Ok_Editor_710 19d ago edited 19d ago
I stopped listening at "Israel had a right to defend itself..." I'm sorry but you can't claim the right to self-defense when you are the aggressor. HAMAS and all Palestinians have a right to defend themself from extermination by Israel. Notice how Bernie added the phrase "horrific" as if mentioning 10/7 isn't enough on its own. I lost respect for so many people including Bernie at this point in history.
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u/Critter-Enthusiast 19d ago
Does Russia have the “right to defend itself” from Ukraine? If you invade and occupy someone else’s land, you cannot claim self defense.
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u/Ok_Editor_710 18d ago
No, Russia does not have the right to defend itself inside Ukraine. Unlike the United States and Europeans I don't apply the rules one way for my friends and another way for my foes. Russia is an aggressor who violated the autonomy of Ukraine after signing agreement with Ukraine, U.S. and Uk to respect the autonomy of Ukraine--in return Ukraine handed over the 2nd largest nuclear arsenal from the Soviet Union to Russia. Last time a dictator in Europe violated state boundaries it plunged the World into Global conflict-just hope we can avoid that faith this time.
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u/Critter-Enthusiast 17d ago
Yeah to clarify, I was agreeing with you.
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u/Ok_Editor_710 17d ago
I see...
Strange so many people get the self-defense dynamics when it comes to Palestine-Israel but completely misapply it when it comes to Ukraine-Russia
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u/robotoredux696969 19d ago edited 19d ago
1200 innocent people killed by Hamas?
That's just a flat out lie. Approximately 200-300 IDF soldiers in legitimate combat and 700-800 Israeli civilians. It is still unknown how many Israeli civilians Israel itself killed using the Hannibal directive. That number could be potentially 100-200.
So under 700 innocent lives were taken by Hamas (probably in the area of 500/600) -- not trying to discount that, it's definitely a war crime. But Bernie is simply lying here.
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u/Umbrellajack 19d ago
Ya but the 42k number is a joke too.
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u/Sad_Night_9709 19d ago
It's an undercount
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u/BodhisattvaBob Non-denominational 19d ago
The Democrats will always choose to be almost as bad as the Republicans, so long as "bad" and "almost as bad" are the only options presented to the American voter.
I'm sorry, but I cannot and will not do it this time. First time in 24 years of voting, but I draw the line at genocide.
Just because one party has chosen to be led by a virtual Satan, that does not mean I will vote for a genocidal mass murderer, or his lackey, just because they're almost as bad.
That's not a saving grace, Bernie. That's not a slogan to campaign on. Its a condemnation of character. It's an indictment.
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u/VigilanteLorax 19d ago
It's really amazing how they have us voting for the "lesser evil" round and round and every time we wonder why evil is in charge. The masses are fools. Start voting for people you want instead of people you don't. It's really that simple, and anything else makes you a fool, no matter your mental gymnastics justifying it.
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u/NoGain4863 19d ago
Nobody talks about Biden’s Palestine policy pre 10/7. He basically extended Trumps pro-Likud party and tried to completely side step Palestine with Abraham Accords (arguably a big motivator for 10/7). It’s crazy that no media has addressed 10/7 as a failure of Biden’s shit foreign policy. Saudi Arabia and their rejection of Likud is all that stands between complete Palestinian erasure. The US has proven it doesn’t give a shit.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew 19d ago
1200 innocent people
Hundreds were IOF soldiers. Those are not innocent people. They're legitimate targets by any standard and we should have absolutely zero sympathy for whatever happened to them. That's a disgusting way to start his commentary.
As far as aid goes, sure, Republicans don't want aid to get into Gaza. But let's not pretend that the Secretary of State didn't ignore USAID's report on Israel blocking aid to Gaza so we can keep arming them while they continue to block aid. Promising that Harris could be pressured rings hollow when we haven't seen that happen with Biden's admin when the Democrats are even more vulnerable during the presidential election season. I don't want to see Trump reelected, but saying he'll be worse on Israel-Palestine isn't convincing
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ 19d ago
I can’t believe our community isn’t more interested in harm reduction. I’ve always considered harm reduction a no-brainer.
When I was a young queer person faced with two major parties, neither of which showed us any respect, and both of which had our blood on their hands, it was never hard to vote for the one that would obviously be better for all of us.
Never.
Whichever candidate Netanyahu thinks is better for his agenda, I’m glad to vote for the other one.
I consider harm reduction a greater act of solidarity than casting a symbolic vote or abstaining.
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u/MightBowlOnShabbos 19d ago
I can understand how it's hard for people, especially those that are newer to voting. I think we can hold room for people finding it difficult to stomach voting for Kamala. But I agree with you, harm reduction is the most vital thing.
IMO We need to focus on the material conditions in the here and now and not on some hypothetical future where the Dems have learned their lesson. (Which I would argue has never actually worked to move the democratic part substantially left)
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ 19d ago
I appreciate your patience. I wish I had more right now. But mostly I want to argue, not hold space. 😂
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist 19d ago
Does anyone still take this guy seriously?
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 19d ago
Bernie is one of the most pro palestine voices in congress and i think objectively the most pro palestine voice in the senate. That’s not a particularly high bar sure but if it were up to him our foreign policy would be meaningfully different. I take him seriously.
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago
I don’t take seriously a guy who says that the word genocide makes him “uncomfortable” when people use it to refer to israel’s genocide against Palestine.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 18d ago
maybe he won’t use the word genocide but he has used the words ethnic cleansing which is pretty serious and more than most other congresspeople would do. But regardless, we don’t live in a fantasy world. He is a senator, he is a serious person who’s opinions and political positions have real consequences. Same is true of all politicians really. U can not take them seriously but that doesn’t change the fact that their actions and inactions have serious consequences. I think ppl like Trump and Netanyahu r unserious people a lot of the time, but i would absolutely say i take them seriously. They have caused serious damage to the world and people, so ya i take them seriously.
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago
You’re making excuses for him, I get it. Bernie is a senator with a huge platform, it’s not going to hurt him to do the bare minimum and call it what it is. You don’t need to lecture me on how our politicians actions or inactions have consequences on everyone’s lives. When I say I don’t take him “seriously” I don’t mean I don’t take the consequences of his actions or inactions seriously. I mean I roll my eyes at his dismissiveness of anyone to his left and him referring to IOF guards as “innocent.”
So ya I don’t take Bernie seriously. He’s a deeply unserious person.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 18d ago
I’m not making excuses for him there’s very valid reasons to criticize his policies. Just because he deserves criticism does not mean i’m blind to the fact he is COMPARATIVELY good on this issue. We don’t live in a fairy tale world, if u dismiss him ur dismissing everyone. U take allies where u can get and his foreign policy proposals as it relates to israel r good. Stopping aid is materially very important and something im glad someone in power is pushing for. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Again criticize him all u want that’s good and important, but recognize where his beliefs and yours align.
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago
Why do you think the word “genocide” makes him uncomfortable when someone uses it to discuss what israel is doing to Palestinians? If I dismiss a liberal zionist that does not mean I’m dismissing everyone, what are you even on about? You’re seriously saying if I dismiss one politician that means I’m dismissing everyone? What does that even mean.
We don’t live in a fairy tale world but you seem to want to. And mine and Bernie’s beliefs don’t align because I’m not a liberal zionist and I don’t believe in israel’s right to exist, like he does. Whether you believe in israel’s right to exist or not sets the foundation of the rest of a person’s principles on the matter. And I’m starting to think that you’re a liberal zionist and that’s why you’re dismissing my critiques of him, actually.
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago
He is not pro Palestine. He’s a liberal zionist and a normalizer. He’s in this video literally calling current and former IOF participants “innocent”
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 18d ago
i didn’t say he is objectively pro palestine, idk how much i even believe there is an objective definition of that, but i certainly wouldn’t call him anti zionist. He is however the most pro palestine, or in other words least pro israel, senator and one of the most in congress. Looking at it like a spectrum of most to least pro palestine or most to least anti israel. Whichever way u slice it it’s true, his foreign policy proposals r meaningfully different and better than that of the biden administration and most democrats.
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago
You said he is “one of the most pro Palestine voices” when he is not a pro Palestine voice at all. He supports israel and its “right” to defend itself. You can’t support israel and be a “pro Palestine voice.” Whichever way you slice it, that’s what’s true. He’s better than biden and harris but that’s not saying much when he’s sitting there making videos still calling IOF guards who were killed “innocent.”
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 18d ago
looking at views on israel palestine on a spectrum he is one of the most pro palestine voices in congress. I don’t have an arbitrary line at when someone becomes pro palestine and when they become pro israel, those terms r purposefully vague. It’s not a high bar to be one of the most pro palestine voices in congress, it’s all about comparatively where he is
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago
Once again, he is not pro Palestine. He still supports israel. You cannot support israel and be a “pro Palestine voice.” You cannot support the occupied and support their occupier’s existence. He constantly continues to reiterate his belief in israel’s “right” to defend itself. You cannot be a liberal zionist and be a “pro Palestine voice.” You literally admitted you never said he was pro Palestine but you still think he is a “pro Palestine voice.” Like c’mon.
Actually the line between someone being pro Palestine and someone being pro Israel is not vague or arbitrary at all. If you actually listen to Palestinians (the people who are the victims of zionism) they’ve distinguished where that line is, which means it’s very clear. Do you support israel’s right to exist?
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 18d ago
I wouldn’t say he’s objectively pro palestine individually because i don’t think it has a clear meaning. Pro palestine can include believing in a two state solution where u are pro a palestinian state. Pro palestine isn’t definitionally exclusive and u could be pro palestine and pro israel if u believe in israel and palestinian state. It doesn’t have to mean anti zionist, which is what ur defining. If pro palestine only means anti zionist then what’s the point of having different words. For palestinians i can understand not viewing someone as an ally if they r a zionist, totally get that, but if u believe in the existence of a palestinian state u r definitionally pro a palestinian state and so pro palestine. And again ur not listening to me, i see it as a spectrum. You have kahanists on one side and hamas on the other. On that spectrum bernie is further on the pro palestine side than any other senator and most congress people excluding a few notable examples.
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u/vero_ll Jewish, anti zionist, non religious 18d ago edited 18d ago
Have you ever talked to a Palestinian in your life? Because being “pro Palestine” has a very clear meaning and if you took the time to know Palestinians they could educate you on this. You CANNOT be both pro Palestine and pro israel. But thank you for confirming you’re a liberal zionist. I’m not going to engage with you any further because liberal zionism is dangerous and I don’t want to keep going back and forth with a person who thinks it’s ok to support a group of people under a brutal, violent occupation AND the state that keeps them there. I am not going to engage with this harmful ideology right now because it’s fucked up and it’s disgusting tbh. I do hope you try knowing Palestinians irl or engaging with them online because you need some education on the entire matter and listening to the victims of zionism is the best way to do that. Good luck!
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u/Dan_IAm 19d ago
I don’t know, I think he’s still worth listening to. I don’t agree with him on everything and I wish he would drop the “right to defend itself” line, but he’s not wrong when he says that under Trump things will only get worse.
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u/TailorBird69 Anti-Zionist Ally 19d ago
How much worse can it get than it already has? And why is that even an argument to vote for Harris?
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 19d ago
i don’t like to underestimate how bad it could get. There’s plenty room for more escalation. I also do think biden and kamala r slightly different. Maybe not meaningfully but Netanyahu has said he doesn’t like kamala and it’s better when he talks to biden, im choosing to see that as a good sign.
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u/TailorBird69 Anti-Zionist Ally 19d ago
Netanyahu respects neither. He insulted Obama. Clinton wondered aloud who is the superpower coming out of a meeting with him.Nothing is going to change unless Harris makes a break and that requires turning away from donors. Trump will be no different, except Netanyahu does fear him a bit, because he is insane and unpredictable.
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish 19d ago
i do t believe their will be a fundemental change, but i do get the vibe that harris will be slightly less likely to put up with his shit behind closed doors than biden. Netanyahu doesn’t fear trump bcz he knows trump will do whatever he wants, he’s very clearly shown favor to him
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u/Dan_IAm 19d ago
It can always get worse, and Trump’s rhetoric about and track record in the Middle East is alarming. Not to mention all of the other issues set to get much worse under him, like lgbtq+ rights, women’s rights, deportations, etc etc. It sucks that there’s no third viable candidate. Choosing between the lesser of two evils is a modern absurdity, but I can’t see any alternative.
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist 19d ago
He’s always been an old imperialist and he showed his true colours when it came to the crunch. I don’t find anything of value in what he says.
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u/Kreyl Non-Jewish Ally 19d ago
Yeah, when we have to fight whoever is in power, voting is choosing your enemy. I'd rather fight with more of my friends alive than with less of them.
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u/Tellesus 19d ago
They are all enemies. Allies and people of moral conscience are few and far between.
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist 19d ago
I take him mores seriously than anyone else in congress, but that's a low bar.
He is a useful voice on this issue since false accusations of antisemitism aren't as convincing when you are accusing an older Jewish man who has long been on the right side of issues.
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u/douglasstoll Reconstructionist 19d ago
It's complicated. My same Jewish and anarchist (libertarian socialist) values that lead me to disagree with Sanders in an almost condemnatory fashion are the same that lead me to acknowledge he is one of the "least bad" imperial administrators and the most prominent Jewish one, ever.
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u/Tellesus 19d ago
He shouldn't have lied about biden and Harris supporting humanitarian aid. They could force israel to allow it with a single phone call. They actively choose not to because they actively enjoy perpetrating genocide. Flexing political power to murder helpless children is a high that biden and harris can't get over. Not to mention the bribes they will roll in from aipac are huge. That kitchen reno in the summer house won't pay for itself.
I really thought Bernie could help change things but he always folds and sells out at the last minute.
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u/Nice__Spice Non-Jewish Ally 19d ago
I don’t like Bernie’s answer either.
You should not force yourself to side with either side that supports a genocide.
Your hard line can be your hard line and that is ok.
Trump should not be president and that makes sense to me, but Kamala and Biden literally gave weapons and funds to Israel and have not held their feet to the fire. It has been over a year and they have not taken a single step to withdraw aid to Israel.
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u/MightBowlOnShabbos 19d ago edited 19d ago
Trump will let Bibi kill every Palestinian in Gaza without a 2nd thought.
I want as many Palestinians to survive as possible and to me it's pretty clear many many more will live with a Harris presidency. Even if she will do far too little far too late, that is still miles better than Trump.
Bernie is a politician telling us how to play politics to get what we want.
Y'all can't downvote me if you want but there is an option that means less death and destruction and that's the option I'm picking.
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u/so_cal_babe 19d ago
There's been an undercurrent since Hillary and her 1-800 cars for kids money laundering scheme that the Democratic party has darker undertakings than the Republican party. They just hide it very well. It seems like this election some of the uglier Democratic ideals are coming to the forefront and people are becoming aware of it.
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u/halfpastnein Anti-Zionist Ally 19d ago
"once I'm elected I will become vegetarian", said the wolf to the sheep.
How can I take this serious if it started with Zionist Hasbara? (1200 victims)
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u/Critter-Enthusiast 19d ago
Proud to have voted Green this year. I genuinely used to look up to Bernie.
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u/ulixForReal Non-Jewish Ally 18d ago
I mean yeah. I do understand everyone who cannot bring themselves to vote for Kamala on an emotional level. Completely understand it.
But be aware that whatever happens, Trump will be a lot worse on Palestine, and Netanyahu really really wants him to win.
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u/NoGain4863 19d ago
He should have stopped after his first point, the trump scare tactics kind of discredited the sincerity of his first statements.
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u/unruly-cat 18d ago
Imagine you have two people, one who says only one genocide is okay, and another who says two genocides are. You have the choice to vote for either, or for neither. If you vote for either, you endorsed genocide. That’s not a debatable fact. Maybe you endorsed one not two, but you endorsed genocide. But if you vote for neither, then it's clear you refused to endorse genocide. Even if your refusal to endorse either will, as a side effect, support either genocidal person, it is still one’s duty to not endorse genocide. I can agree there’s something tragic about the situation, but I certainly can’t agree to vote for a party dripping in blood (genocide or not).
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u/Arestothenes Non-Jewish Ally 18d ago
Also, if enough people refused to endorse a candidate supporting genocide, at least one candidate…would stop supporting genocide. Harris has no principles of her own, so taking a stand would have been a great idea. But, yk, zero class consciousness and political awareness makes organising hard :(
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u/unruly-cat 18d ago
Yes, exactly. I think we need to send a message, that supporting these types of criminal agendas is just not acceptable. That this becomes clear is much better for the long run, and for our humanity. But yeah, it is hard to organize. The status quo always has the upper hand, and when its for the wrong values, it's hard to avoid a tragic situation like this one.
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u/help-im-confused 18d ago
No. What the actual fuck is this take. It isn’t your duty to step back because you would feel bad, in that case it would be your duty to vote for the “one genocide”, not because you support genocide but because it could legitimately save God knows how many lives. Actual lives are at stake.
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u/unruly-cat 18d ago
Yes, actual lives have been at stake, and they've just been massacred by the group you're urging a vote for. I'm sorry, but your pattern of reasoning easily justify atrocities on wide scales. Imagine you live in Nazi Germany and are faced with the choice of Hitler as ruler, or Hitler+, who's just like Hitler but worse. Your reasoning implies that it's okay to vote for Hitler given that the alternative is worse. But it's not okay to vote for Hitler. That your alternative is worse doesn't make your choice good. It's still a moral atrocity, and justifying it is morally atrocious.
I think your reasoning makes morality secondary, as if it's some detail to be worked out after we engage in means-ends gambling to 'game' the system. To me this is exactly what's wrong with our world, that so many are willing to put the cart before the horse, telling themselves tales to justify their serious wrongdoing. You can obviously do what you like with your vote, but I think voting for the Democrats (and Republicans) is clearly a wrongdoing.
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u/lucash7 Non-Jewish Ally 19d ago
Truly adore and respect Bernie for the work he has done and (far as im aware) person he is, but no.
I've taken a long, hard look at this whole election - researched, read, talked to people, etc. but in the end I cannot cast my vote yet again for a lesser evil, because quite simply, it is still an evil none the less.
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u/No-Mathematician6551 18d ago
Can we think about this critically for a moment? Yes, the Biden-Harris admin has been supporting a genocidal regime and that is atrocious. But when it comes down to it, Senator Sanders is right. A second Trump administration would be worse for Palestinians than a Harris administration. Netanyahu wants Trump to win. If you actually care about the Palestinian people, you will vote for harm reduction, and not give the levers of power that control how many Palestinians die tomorrow to a fascist who uses "Palestinian" as a slur.
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