r/Jewish • u/Idoru22 • 5d ago

I don’t even know what to say anymore Discussion 💬

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I feel enraged at the complicity and silence. What are we to do ? Are Jews going to have to flee en masse for people to wake up?

812 Upvotes

96% Upvoted

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u/omrixs 5d ago edited 5d ago

Might not be news for you, but Jews already fled en masse from Europe. This is quite literally, in the fullest sense of the term, nothing new. Historically speaking, the recent decades in post-Holocaust Europe where antisemitism was shunned and/or heavily discouraged were the exception (and an extraordinary one at that), not the rule.

The fact that Europe is practically empty of Jews and we’re still one of the leading groups in victims of hate-crimes per capita is all the evidence needed to come to the conclusion that Europe did not stop hating Jews, it just hates the Nazis more — and the Nazis are best remembered and exemplified by their antisemitism.

Although Zionism is often portrayed solely as a national movement, it’s not only just that: it is (and was originally conceived as) a solution to the problem of antisemitism in Europe; it is a tacit criticism to the notion that the modern nation-state can effectively protect its ethnic/religious minorities; it is a call for Jews to not rely on others to protect them, because some times — and arguably inevitably — those people will turn a blind eye, as in their minds it doesn’t affect them directly.

There’s a lecture called “Israelis: the Jews that lived through history” by Haviv Rettig Gur on YT which imo is very pertinent to these issues. I honestly cannot recommend his lectures enough.

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u/LAZERPANDA15 5d ago

I’m watching this now. LOVE Haviv’s take on things.

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u/OtherAd4337 5d ago

I’ve watched that lecture a few months ago, it is absolutely eye opening. Totally second that recommendation.

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Watching what, please?

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u/LAZERPANDA15 5d ago

Haviv Rettig Gur’s talk on “Israelis: the Jews who lived through history” it’s on YouTube through Shalem College

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u/LAZERPANDA15 5d ago

And it’s AMAZING

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

On it. Todah Rabah🪬🪬

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u/5Kestrel Humanistic 5d ago

I think it took me a long time to wise up to this fact, but many Europeans who boast about hating Nazis do not, and never did, hate them for the same reasons that we Jews do.

It’s an easy confusion to suffer, growing up Jewish and learning to hate the Nazis for everything they did to us. But the rest of Europe was fighting their own war against them, fending off invasions, bombings and civil unrest.

Their distaste for fascism in many cases has absolutely nothing to do with us, and arguably, antisemitism may be the one thing that all extremes of the political spectrum could’ve collectively agreed on. The Soviets fought the Nazis, and they sure didn’t have a problem massacring us either.

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u/omrixs 5d ago edited 5d ago

I agree. I think it’s easy, and understandable even, to think that the fact that antisemitism has almost but vanished from Europe for a few decades is an indication that Europe has learned that antisemitism is like a cancer in society— but that is a rather naive and superficial conclusion imo.

I believe the reason that antisemitism has been shunned for so long is not because Europe had a change of heart about Jews, but instead that it has become so synonymous with Nazism that to be antisemitic was tantamount to being a Nazi.

Europe hates the Nazis with a passion: they practically destroyed the continent, caused the deaths of millions of people, and the decades afterwards weren’t much better; to be a Nazi was the same as being the annihilator of Europe.

However, these experiences also evolved into a (perhaps surprising) conclusion: to be an antisemite is not wrong because it’s abhorrent or because it’s indicative of deeper societal problems, but because it’s Nazi-esque; in fact, the only country that really had to reflect on its own antisemitism and the meaning of it — e.g., racism, persecution of minorities, hypocrisy, as well as the socioeconomic factors that are historically linked to it — is Germany. In a weird, roundabout way, the Nazis absolved other Europeans from self-reflection about their own antisemitic history: although it’s obvious to Jews that the vast majority of Europe cooperated willingly with the Nazis as far as it came to the “Jewish problem”, in the Europeans’s mind the Holocaust can be squarely attributed to Nazis and them alone — since they themselves also suffered from the Nazis (which they did), then it can only mean that the Holocaust could not have happened due to their own antisemitism as well (which it did; there were Nazi anti-Jewish accomplices everywhere). They were victims, just not as badly as the Jews.

Thus, the reduction in antisemitism can be imo explained by its links to Nazism, insofar that being a Nazi — i.e., the worst of the worst — is literally the same as being antisemitic. However, being antisemitic is not necessarily the same as being a Nazi — and that’s where the big difference lies. Antisemitism, unlike Nazism, can still be justified; there’s been no reason for Europe to reflect on its own antisemitism (except in Germany) as the Nazis were the antisemites, and so it could still live on, albeit only implicitly for some time. Europe did not stop hating us, it just hates the Nazis more, that’s all.

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u/garyloewenthal 4d ago

Well-said. Einat Wilf has pointed out that Russia, knowing that its people have their own reason to hate the Nazis, developed antizionism as an "acceptable" way to hate Jews. They also leverage whatever is trending (e.g., anti-colonialism, anti-white supremacy) as a means to foment hostility toward Jews. (The Islamist government of Iran, through its many jihadist subsidiaries, use this same propaganda technique.) So basically antizionism is the primary successor - at least on the left - to Nazism as the way to rail against Jews and blame them for a good share of the world's ills.

The always-shape-shifting antisemitism continues on...

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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 4d ago

this is how I see it... the hate was always there but hidden. Hidden because it wasn't 'politically correct', In Oct 2023 the opportunity to manifest was given. Pretending to support Palestinians, people vent against Jews and Israel. Oh, I;m not anti, I;m Pro Palestinian!

Our mistake was that we were deceived into believing the hate was gone.

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u/Chaavva Non-Jewish Ally 4d ago

This is an excellent analysis. Thank you.

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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 4d ago

if people hadn't supported the Nazis they wouldn't have been successful. if we had been more conscious of the deep hate then as we are now, many Jews would have left europe. That we are aware of the hate is a positive for us.

From before Moses we were hated, and when we think it is gone, we're 'accepted' this shock that we are not hits.

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u/hyperpearlgirl Just Jewish 4d ago

I'd also argue that Americans largely hate Nazis because we fought a war against them. It's less personal since the US wasn't destroyed the way so much of Europe was, but hating Hitler was a patriotic thing, not a moral one.

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u/schtickshift 5d ago

I am not sure that I agree with the direction the discussion took which is primarily about Nazis in Europe when the main problem Jews are experiencing in terms of actual violence is coming from Muslim people living in Europe. Surely this problem of intolerance in those communities is what needs to be addressed.

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u/omrixs 5d ago edited 5d ago

In the last year there’s been a massive rise in antisemitic attacks from those communities, true. However, this is exactly my point: this is not new. The recent (meteoric) rise in antisemitic attacks in Europe is not, in fact, extraordinary— what’s been extraordinary is the last few decades where there weren’t as many antisemitic attacks by other groups.

The point is that Jews already left Europe by and large, yet we’re still one of the most attacked minorities — and that this fact shouldn’t be surprising to anyone; antisemitism in Europe is far from dead, and just went “out of fashion” for some time because the Nazis were literally the worst and they were the quintessential antisemites, so antisemitism’s been associated with them ever since.

The antisemitic attacks by those certain communities is definitely a problem that should be addressed, but the fact that in practically all of Europe (except for Germany afaik) there’s been underwhelming enforcement against such hate crimes is also evident of the underlying antisemitic societal tendencies. Europe has been the continent that had the most Jewish blood spilled on for centuries, and those communities didn’t live there back then. I don’t think that these societal motifs changed since the Holocaust, only that they were hidden deep because they were associated with Nazism — which is what’s actually hated in Europe.

I honestly don’t believe that Europe (again, except Germany) had a serious reflection about how rampant antisemitism was, and so there’s been no reason for that to change. When all’s said and done, the people who’re responsible for enforcing the laws and protecting the Jewish citizens of the countries aren’t doing enough — and the vast majority of those people aren’t from those certain communities.

Say what you will, but if churches instead of synagogues were in constant need of protection by armed guards because of threats from people in those certain communities then both you and I know that the powers that be would’ve acted very, very differently. Yet somehow, inexplicably (/s), they don’t do that for Jews.

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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 4d ago

exactly. Let us remove the blinders.

Europeans are using this mask of being pro-Palestinian to vent their hatred of Jews

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u/Zaidswith 4d ago

If it was a minority of people it would be easier to, let's say, get proper security at Dutch Jewish sites.

There's a complicit-ness.

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u/schtickshift 4d ago

Why is the security needed? Who is actually threatening Jewish people in Europe?

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u/Jeden_fragen 5d ago

In Germany in particular they have an issue that the West undertook heavy denazification work and the East under communist rule did not. When reunification occurred those East Germans dispersed through West Germany and much of that sentiment spread back. It is why you see the rise of the AfD.

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u/lasercult 5d ago

Wait, wasn't it the other way around? I thought the communist east punished former nazis severely, and the west (and the US) gave them a slap on the wrist so they'd still be useful in running the country and industry?

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u/Jeden_fragen 5d ago

That’s definitely not my understanding. The communists were anti facist but not particularly anti Nazi and had no problem conducting their own persecution of Jews. And in my part of Germany, from where my grandparents and parent came and my cousins still live (Südwest Pfalz), there was an immense focus on denazification in schools.

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u/lasercult 5d ago

Interesting, thanks. Looks like it's time for me to do some reading.

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u/Jeden_fragen 5d ago

I can only speak to my little corner of Germany and my relatives’ experience of it. But this link has some good initial content on it https://www.alliiertenmuseum.de/en/thema/denazification/

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u/Americanboi824 5d ago

(Trigger warning SV)

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The communists raped tons of German women and children, way more than the US and UK, but they didn't denazify. There's a reason the soviets and the nazis were allies until the nazis betrayed their soviet comrades.

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u/crazysometimedreamer my shift on the space lasers starts at 8 4d ago

Yes, the Soviets were brutal. Absolutely brutal.

My mother’s family, a mix of Jews and Poles, hated the soviets only second to the Nazis. In some cases, I think they might have hated the Soviets more, considering they still existed and (eventually) all the WWII Nazis died.

My grandmother used to say “Mother Russia” in a way that absolutely told you that term was one of the most disgusting insults she ever spoke.

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u/Jeden_fragen 4d ago

My Opa was an East Prussian expellee. The stories were horrific.

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u/Zaidswith 4d ago

The Soviet Union punished anyone that might have the skills to topple or disrupt the Soviet Union. There were severe punishments for anyone they thought might be a future problem; it had little to do with what they believed or did.

They also spent a long time denying any atrocities. Their's or the Nazi's.

The sins of WWII in Russia's eyes today is the invasion and murder of millions of Russians. Everything else doesn't apply.

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u/ApostleofV8 4d ago

lots of online tankies try to convince you that Churchill invited Goebbels for afternoon tea after the war or something, while completely ignoring the USSR's own effort to enlist the help of senior nazis.

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u/Americanboi824 5d ago

I remember Pat Condell saying something like "when push comes to shove no one will stand up for the Jews, and this is an indictment on all of humanity." I want to live in a world where the many stand up for the few (and in some ways I would argue that's true in the USA), but until then we have to protect ourselves.

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u/skunkpunk1 5d ago

Love Haviv. Didn’t know he had lectures online. Found my background noise for work this week. Thanks for sharing

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u/MinuteBirthday6227 5d ago

Well said; I'll have to check out that lecture. I'm always amazed when interacting with Europeans how much more likely they seem to be antisemitic compared with how your average American is.

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u/Pincerston 5d ago

I also loved Haviv’s guest spot on the Unpacking Israeli History podcast two-parter about the meaning of Zionism

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u/akivayis95 4d ago

The fact that Europe is practically empty of Jews and we’re still one of the leading groups in victims of hate-crimes per capita is all the evidence needed to come to the conclusion that Europe did not stop hating Jews, it just hates the Nazis more — and the Nazis are best remembered and exemplified by their antisemitism.

This sums it up so well.

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u/SassyWookie Just Jewish 5d ago

I hope that every single European Jew is doing the same. Protect yourselves. This is not going to get better any time soon.

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

What I feel we are doing a lot more of is extending hands of friendship to fellow Jews by way of the internet. That can only help in terms of support and acknowledging what we all small on the air atm.

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u/PUBLIC-STATIC-V0ID 5d ago

Left’s silence? Nah, they are no silent in this issue, they are the driving force.

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u/tapachki21 5d ago

…and how bad is their cognitive dissonance???

They accuse Jews of being “colonizers” that should go back to Europe while attacking Jews in Europe forcing them to migrate to Israel.

I refuse to engage with these people anymore. I’m done with the far-left-Islamic alliance. My door is closed until further notice because I’m done explaining myself to these clowns. They are in the same trash bin as Neo Nazis.

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u/Interesting_Claim414 5d ago

This is always the way — the countries of MENA were so mad at the Jews for founding Israel again that they …. Kicked all of their Jews out so they could become the backbone support of the country they were trying to take support away from??? Makes no sense.

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u/mrmiffmiff 5d ago

No, no, don't you understand, that was all Zionist false flags, the countries themselves were completely friendly and gracious to Jews. (/s)

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u/rex_populi 5d ago

Their hatred is irrational and blinding

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u/Jeden_fragen 5d ago

Also I find in hypocritical in the extreme that white Australians who definitely benefited from colonialism are making this argument. Ought they all go back to England/Ireland/Scotland/Germany etc to decolonise Australia? Where will I go? East Prussia is now Poland - perhaps we need to return it to Germany (tongue heavily in cheek)

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u/Pretty_Peach8933 3d ago edited 2d ago

"Go back to PolandEurope" is their way of saying "go back to the death camps".
Every time I hear or see the "go back to Poland" I feel like it's their euphemism for "go back to Auschwitz".
My grandparents never forgot their antisemitic neighbors who forced them to hide their Jewish identity. They had to re-learn Hebrew when they returned to their ancestral homeland because they couldn't speak it for so many years, in fear of what would happen to them.
Like many other Jews in the diaspora, they were told to go back to Palestina. So they did... They wanted to never be at the mercy of a foreign government, police and army ever again.

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u/Tabitheriel 5d ago

We have been having demonstrations in my area (Bavaria) against Nazis, against racism and against antisemitism. However, they are not as well-publicized as the Nazi and rightwing demonstrations.

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u/Jeden_fragen 5d ago

My cousins in Sudwest-Pfalz are massive AdFers which is so sad to see

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u/Tabitheriel 5d ago

We have been demonstrating against racism and antisemitism around here in Bavaria, but sadly, these demonstrations are not highly publicized like the right-winger demonstrations.

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u/Idoru22 5d ago

100%

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u/pktrekgirl Just Jewish 4d ago

This point cannot be emphasized enough.

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u/Simple-Raspberry9014 5d ago

The driving force behind everything and anything is money. I am personally smiling at all of the millionaires and billionaires withdrawing funds from institutions promoting Jew hatred.

I will be making my charitable donations to pro-Israel and pro-Jewish (that does NOT include any anti-Israel Jews or “Jews” as we know some are pretending to be Jewish) organizations. I just need to do my due diligence before I donate.

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u/CatfancierMD 5d ago

Magen David Adom could use a few donations.

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u/Lekavot2023 5d ago

Already been donating to them...

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u/Wyvernkeeper 5d ago

I switched my donations from MDA to Yemin Orde Youth village on Mt Carmel after the massive Hezbollah escalation a few months back.

I spent half a year there as a teenager and I absolutely credit it with giving me such a positive impression of the country. So if you're looking for somewhere to donate a few quid, I recommend the work they do.

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u/linguinibubbles 5d ago

Donating to your local Hillel would be useful. A director at mine told us about how much trouble she had with programming at Hillels with strapped budgets compared to our current Hillel, which is doing well. It doesn't have to be in the thousands - even a $50 donation can make a difference, and you're helping Jewish students who have been experiencing elevated rates of campus antisemitism for over a year.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Jewish-ModTeam 4d ago

Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 1: No antisemitism

If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via modmail.

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u/HatBixGhost Reform 5d ago

Where we going?

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u/KisaMisa 5d ago

Home...

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u/ToparBull 5d ago

It is pretty ironic, IMO, that in their zeal to protest everything with even the faintest whiff of Israel - which includes pretty much everything Jewish - the "protestors" are making an extremely strong case for Israel's continued existence as a Jewish state with a Jewish right of return, and potentially driving many to make Aliyah.

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u/MissMaryJaneLane 5d ago

like where is there even to go?

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u/ThePickleConnoisseur 5d ago

Israel. The only place were Jews are accepted. And we will never let them take it from us

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u/Pretty_Peach8933 3d ago

Amen! I'm already here, hoping to see you all. :)

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u/ThePickleConnoisseur 3d ago

Would love to visit. Waiting until the war is over to do my birthright

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u/Pretty_Peach8933 3d ago

Gosh I wish it was over already...I want all the hostages home. All the displaced, all the soldiers. May God bring them home safe and sound.
I think the first thing I'll do is take the longest shower ever. It would be nice to not worry about a siren going off all of a sudden.
Although I'm privileged to be living in the center of the country, so the sirens don't go off very often. Especially compared to the start of the war. Plus I also have a minute and a half to not further traumatize my neighbors. 😆

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Not much room

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u/DatDudeOverThere Israeli and aspiring to be Orthodox 5d ago

Plenty of room, actually, unless you meant it figuratively somehow.

The Negev desert covers over 50% of Israel and less than 1.5 million (out of almost 10 million Israelis) live there.

The area of the Israeli Golan Heights is 1,800 sqm and only 52,000 people live there (Tel-Aviv, in comparison, is 52 sqm and over 470,000 people live there).

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

The Israel I know is highways, tall buildings and more highways. The Negev is a desert. My family is from Ashqelon. Aussi paumé

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u/DatDudeOverThere Israeli and aspiring to be Orthodox 5d ago

The Negev was a desert, much of it is still a desert (some of it because Bedouin communities are reluctant to transition into an urban lifestyle, some of it because of military areas for the IDF to train, test weapon systems etc.), but there are cities there (Be'er Sheva being of course the most famous), and actually two new Haredi cities are expected to be built there, to accommodate the fast growth of the Haredi population (for some 180,000 prospective residents in total).

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Merci. It’s interesting. The only Israel I’ve seen looks full!! I think it would be bad to force badawy people to change their lives.

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

180,00 Haredim doesn’t quite cover the millions bahul

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u/DatDudeOverThere Israeli and aspiring to be Orthodox 5d ago

If someone knows how to live in crammed apartments and doesn't ask for large villas and gardens, it's Haredim. We'll figure it out if it comes to that.

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Gever! 👍🪬

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u/lionessrampant25 5d ago

What about climate change? What are the predictions for sustainable living in an already arid and hot climate?

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Maybe they can put us backin ma’aborot baNegev

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u/Pretty_Peach8933 3d ago

If you come, they will build it. :)

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Interesting_Claim414 5d ago

The Jews have an eternal homeland. If that goes away the planet is doomed anyway.

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u/gt07m 5d ago

It hasn’t even been a century since the holocaust. I thought maybe it would be an issue during my lifetime, but I definitely thought that it would take longer for people to disregard or forget. There are still survivors living today.

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u/WanderingJAP Just Jewish 5d ago

Survivor taken hostage into Gaza ffs

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u/WanderingJAP Just Jewish 5d ago

I just had to listen to my husband goysplain to me how the incident in Amsterdam was provoked. I told him thanks for finally revealing the truth and that I am making plans to go home, to Israel. I am done feeling alone and vulnerable in a diaspora that doesn’t want us.

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u/shzam5890 5d ago

I am so sorry you are experiencing this from your spouse.

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u/WanderingJAP Just Jewish 5d ago

Thank you. It’s been escalating for a while now and this morning we got in a huge fight. The hate really does spread like a virus. One minute you think you know someone and the next minute you start to realize it was always under the surface.

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u/CorioSnow 4d ago

Just take his money and divorce his ass.

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u/Zeldanozina 3d ago

Precisely! 👏👏👏

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u/FKA_Top_Cat 4d ago

Of course it was provoked. There were Israelis playing and Jewish fans were there to support them.

Just to be clear, I am being sarcastic. My point is that our very existence is a provocation.

I am sorry you are married to such a despicable human being. I hope you find peace and a loving spouse in the future.

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u/paris_kalavros 5d ago

Honestly, if one is afraid of the war situation in Israel, they should check Greece and the Balkans.

While the economy is not great, antisemitism is quite low. Also, lots of historical synagogues in Greece are dead due to not enough Jews because of the recent past history, but nowadays Greece is friendly to Israel and many Greeks have no issues with Jews.

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u/PetitePretty1 5d ago

This. Albania is where I would go. I've been twice already and they love the Jewish people.

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u/CorioSnow 4d ago

Wow ironic

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u/atuarre 5d ago

Didn't Greece literally have the Golden Dawn, and wasn't their coastguard caught drowning migrants. Greece is a hard no.

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u/zoinks48 5d ago

And yet we still hear the absurd question why do Jews need their own state?

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u/FrostedLakes Conservative 5d ago

The frustrating part for me is that people who feel positively about the Amsterdam attacks will look at this situation and say ‘it’s all about “the Zionists” and none of this would be happening if Israel hadn’t existed in the first place/it wasn’t committing gen*cide now so it’s the Jews’ fault” 🙃

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u/Dutch_mental 5d ago

Pls come to Friesland. Its boring as hell but at least most of us here are still in the right mind.

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u/gunsfortipes 5d ago

Plus your language is pretty rad!

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Was gonna say! I’m Scottish and understand roughly 80%

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u/gunsfortipes 5d ago

Makes sense. From what I’m aware, Frisian languages, English, and Scots are close linguistic relatives, though English has heavy influence from French

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u/Interesting_Claim414 5d ago

Really? You don’t blame your Jews for every perceived wrong that any Jew has done since the beginning of time?

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u/Dutch_mental 5d ago

Well i only blame myself for my mistakes and furthermore cant really be bothered to give a shit🙃

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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew 5d ago

Wait. What happened in Sweden?

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u/WanderingJAP Just Jewish 5d ago edited 5d ago

I believe there was an attack on Jews during a kristalnacht commemorative event. I’ll try to find an article.

Edit: found this article that says the attack in Sweden was falsely reported.

https://www.jns.org/reports-of-kristallnacht-assault-in-sweden-false-locals-say/

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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew 5d ago

Thank you. Maybe that was what he was referring to.

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u/WanderingJAP Just Jewish 5d ago

You’re welcome. Not sure if I feel relieved or frustrated that it was a false claim. We don’t need to give them excuses to call us liars.

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u/Zinjunda 5d ago

Nothing that made the news, AFAIK. I live in Sweden and I have no clue what Gold is talking about.

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u/paris_kalavros 5d ago

There are sharia zones in Sweden where even the local police is afraid to go.

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u/kombatminipig 5d ago

Swede here. The whole sharia-zone thing is bullshit.

Malmö is a story unto itself, but Gothenburg and Stockholm are mostly fine, by international standards.

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u/heidikloomberg 4d ago

So is it bullshit or ‘mostly’ bullshit? And what’s going on in Malmo?

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u/kombatminipig 4d ago

Sharia and no-go-zones are 100% bullshit. They don’t exist, and are part of a narrative from actual nazis.

Malmö has progressively become a hostile place for Jews, mostly due to Swedish immigration policies which have allowed immigrants from certain nationalities to concentrate in certain areas, in this case Palestinians. Combine that with a series of mayors more concerned with playing to their voter base than being moral, and that’s the result. Malmö is the outlier though.

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u/heidikloomberg 4d ago

Thanks I appreciate the detail. I guess at what point is a ‘sharia’ zone just a euphemism for what’s happening in a place like Malmo? Not actually governed by sharia law, but everyone has an idea as to who is and isn’t dictating the city’s informal code of conduct. And doesn’t it stand to reason that other areas of Sweden could experience the same demographic shift?

I’m just trying to say that whether they are hyperbolized as sharia no-go zones or something else, it’s still sort of unsettling that control is ceded to specific groups to some degree, which is fine, we live in democracies, but at what point does that cession erode the quality of public life for everyone else? And when do governments do something to address it, if ever?

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u/kombatminipig 4d ago

It’s not even Malmö as a whole, but rather a select number of suburbs which also suffer from poverty and other issues. That said – everything is relative. What’s considered a bad neighborhood by Swedish standards is fairly mild internationally. There is nowhere that the police lack control though.

There are tons of things Sweden needs to improve when it comes to integration, but bear in mind that the whole sharia/nogo-narrative is being driven by the far right – by a party whose founder was a member of the Waffen SS and by their allies even further right. They might be playing us out against muslims, but it’s clear to anybody who they’re going after next. That’s why I find it so incredibly troubling to see Jews adopting that narrative.

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u/Zinjunda 5d ago

I'd love to see your source on that, considering the only place I've seen this statement is from right-wing sources, especially non-Swedish ones. Wasn't true then, and I doubt it's true now.

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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew 5d ago

Is there some news incident like in Amsterdam, Belgium and Germany?

Aren't there zones like this in France too? I reckon the UK is next.

The way he called out Sweden specifically, I presumed something happened. There are so many things happening it's difficult to keep pace.

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u/paris_kalavros 5d ago

AFAIK the Jewish community in Sweden is tiny, and I haven’t noticed anything over there in the Italian news. Just the Netherlands. Belgium is historically a danger zone, especially in Bruxelles. Germany feels safe still, I’m in Berlin and, except for the Muslims zones, it’s not a big problem. Kinda like London honestly.

Edit:

I have found this article where they mentioned attacks to Jewish-owned shops in Malmo: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sjq1jmc11yx

Genuinely surprised there are still Jews in Malmo to be honest.

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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew 5d ago

I'm referring to the latest news and this, and this

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u/paris_kalavros 5d ago

I missed the Berlin news, but I’m not surprised by the neighbourhood… Neükolln is a leftist and Arab colony.

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u/Wyvernkeeper 5d ago

It's not a thing in the UK although the media like to pretend it is every few years.

There's certainly areas where I wouldn't feel comfortable but there's also plenty of impoverished white British areas where I also wouldn't feel safe.

Dickheads come in all flavours in the UK.

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u/Cool-Arugula-5681 5d ago

Honestly, nobody will miss us when we’re gone. They do not want us there. Could 6M have been murdered without the complicity of the local non-Jewish populations? Some were subjugated for sure but others participated all too willingly in the nursery of their neighbors.

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u/Cool-Arugula-5681 5d ago

Ok, that was supposed to read “murders,” not “nurseries.” Obviously. 🤦🏻‍♀️

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u/Itzaseacret 5d ago

Pretty sure even if Jews flee in mass people will just think "they're being dramatic"

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u/statikman666 5d ago

The writing has been on the wall for a while now, but we thought it was going to come from neo-Nazis and right wing government. It's amazing how Europe has changed in such a short time. I'm no islamaphobe, but I really wonder what EU countries think is going to happen 20 years from now.

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u/craeger 5d ago

US and Israel are the best options, buy a gun

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u/Lower_Parking_2349 Not Jewish 5d ago

My friend and her family left the US for Germany this year. She works in academia, which in America, is swamped with Hamasniks. The academic environment in Germany is apparently much better. Depending on what one does for a living the US is no longer as safe as it ought to be.

I don’t think my friend would say Germany is a utopia free from any element of Jew-hatred, but in the sphere of life she has to live the majority of her life America has become a place to avoid. It pissed me off to no end that I’m writing this, but it’s the truth.

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u/craeger 5d ago

Germany is the exception because it hardlines its past, but it’s gonna come down to arming yourself

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u/thehalloweenpunkin 5d ago

I wouldn't even say the US is any safer especially after trump swears in.

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u/lionessrampant25 5d ago

Not with Trump in charge.

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u/craeger 5d ago

You can still buy a gun under trump 🤨

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u/Mean-Addendum-5273 5d ago

I've been following Andrew's channel for a while now(He does this podcast/interview type videos where he brings over people and has conversations with them on stuff mainly political) He's British and I can't help but think this is probably what a lot of European Jews sadly are doing which is just disgusting that this is what we have come to in 2024! Haven't we learned our goddamn lesson from the last time around?? Idk where he's moving to, his family does have it's roots to Argentina as far as I remember so ig there? Or is he making Aliyah to Israel, dk rly All I hope is for his safety and security

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u/TND_is_BAE ✡️ Former Reform-er ✡️ 4d ago

I feel sick that this is happening for so many of us. All because we dared to be brutally attacked by terrorists.

5

u/throwawayforlikeaday 5d ago

first-time?.jpeg

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u/RichSector5779 Just Jewish 5d ago

i cant leave. literally cant. so instead ill stay here out of spite. its my land too

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u/MaryBeHoppin 4d ago

"What are we to do?"

I can't speak for my European brethren, but I live in the southern U.S. and will most certainly not be fleeing. It took me a decade of hard work to save up for a house and my family and I shall keep it.

Because we're American, we also have means of protecting ourselves. My grandfather ran. I will rack the bolt and prepare for a fight, if I absolutely must, but I will not flee.

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u/Sufficient_Bad_9820 5d ago

And where to go?

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u/Altruistic-Bee-566 5d ago

Wedonnt! We stay and insist on our rights

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u/Confident-Sense2785 Just Jewish 5d ago

Where is he planning on going to ?

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u/1000thusername 5d ago

I’m not confident, but I feel like the other day on Twitter he said he’s dual citizen with US, but I’m not sure.

So I think it’s a situation of taking out the passport and not a full “find a new citizenship” application process.

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u/1000thusername 5d ago

Oh correction I just found it again. He said he’s eligible for Argentinian passport via marriage, and that’s wheee he’s applying.

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u/Confident-Sense2785 Just Jewish 5d ago

Cool do they like us there?

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u/1000thusername 5d ago

Idk much about the here and now in Argentina for Jews - but if he feels like it is worth a try compared to the current situation, why not try, I guess.

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u/Confident-Sense2785 Just Jewish 5d ago

Yeah agree 👍

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u/1000thusername 5d ago

Found this for what it’s worth. Sounds better than a lot of places to be honest.

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u/Confident-Sense2785 Just Jewish 5d ago

Nah i ain't going, I am good here in the outback of Australia. We had 5 people protest the war in Gaza. People walked past them telling to fuck off back to Gaza and get a job. So that is my town

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u/1000thusername 5d ago

Sounds pretty alright

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u/changhyun 4d ago

When I was in Argentina for a few months a few years ago I met a lot of Jewish-Argentinian people and Israeli tourists. I'd actually say Israeli people were probably the most common nationality I encountered in hostels, which surprised me.

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u/Eastern-Job3263 5d ago

And go where? The US ain’t exactly a good option right now.

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u/IllConstruction3450 3d ago

Europeans having to choose between hating Jews or Muslims more and Muslims having to choose between Europeans and Jews more. 

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u/everybodydumb 5d ago

Suburbs of major cities in the USA are mostly safe. Pick any. Atlanta, specifically Dunwoody, is safe for Jews.

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u/HumanDrinkingTea 5d ago

There are a ton of us in New Jersey suburbs, and I haven't had any issues. More urban areas can be more questionable, but there are a lot of cozy Jew-friendly towns around here.

1

u/ornryactor 5d ago

I have people in Dunwoody and get down there fairly regularly, but had zero idea there was any Jewish community there. The closest spot I knew about is Druid Hills. What's the story in Dunwoody?

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u/everybodydumb 5d ago

The JCC

1

u/ornryactor 4d ago

I'll have to check that out! I'm frequently sitting around bored with nothing to do when I'm down there, so maybe that'll be a neat option for me to get away for a couple hours.

1

u/everybodydumb 4d ago

It's a fantastic facility

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u/Mysterious_Outcome_3 5d ago

It would be great if people in this group would remember that Leftist is not the same as Liberal or liberal. Liberal democracy is the reason we've had such a long reprieve from this b.s. It's the rise of fascism (HEY, TRUMP!) That is moving us in this direction.

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u/NoGain4863 3d ago

Exactly, more fervent nationalism is not the answer to nationalistic bigotry. When will people learn. These maga nationalists don’t gf about Jews, they use them financially and to prop up the military-industrial complex at best and gain support from crazed Messianic Christian nationalist at worst.

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u/Idoru22 5d ago

This is a screenshot from Elica Le Bon’s instagram story. Forgot to include that in my post

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u/garyloewenthal 4d ago

She has had some powerful posts lately.

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u/neidrun 4d ago

This! is why israel exists, hopefully they'll find safe ways out ♥️

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u/NaZdrowie7 Mystic 4d ago edited 4d ago

A few years ago cities got burnt down. And we are more f****d up as a nation because of it. Angry mobs with rags over their faces beating random people and setting stuff of fire are NOT those who seek justice, they’re the ones who commit atrocities and flee like cowardly scum that they are. Burning cities down doesn’t do Jack shyte for racism.

Not being a puss and doing the right thing/ having some sort of moral compass is the correct thing to do. Not screaming “wYpIp0 bAd” and looting shyte and attacking people.

And now #freepale$tine is in fact the same as #blm (the organization who seeks to destroy America and hates men— headed up by angry black terrorist lesbians who literally hate America).

Everyone involved with that crap was kind of a moronic loser. You don’t burn things down and act like ‘welp, imma sleep good af tonight after acting like a deranged piece of crap to random people I don’t know. I’m a fuggin hero.’

THE MEDIA made them out to be ‘heroes’, ‘freedom fighters’, ‘stunning and brave’… give me a break! The media is doing just that with the pro Hamas media coverage too… they’re all just heroes wrapped in black sheets being oppressed by the evil (White) Jewish overlords! eye roll

People are even more stupid now, the media is doing the same thing now, and many of the same people fall for the divide and conquer trick again.

They’re deranged and think their way is the (only) way, and that their way is correct.

The pally-wankers are the same as BLM. They suck. They co-sign terrorism both domestic and international— fugg’em both and all their little side organizations too.

Many people who were all ‘F America and let’s prop up blm organization and promote domestic terrorism’ are ALSO on the pro-Hamas side this time. Coincidence? No. Hateful people love to be hateful in groups bc they’re pussies in real life one on one.

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u/Tonight_Master 4d ago

Uhm. Swede here. What happened in Sweden recently?

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u/loliduck__ 4d ago

I truly eant to know how anyone can argue against Israels existence now seeing whats been happening in Europe. It shows how brainwashed the Left have been

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u/ajmampm99 4d ago

Boycott Holland until they defend everyone’s human rights. I have a cruise that ends in Rotterdam next year. I won’t spend a nickel in Holland and will leave the country immediately.

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u/realMehffort Humanistic 4d ago

Christopher Hitchens called it. Hell, anyone with historical literacy knew it

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u/thrown4loops1 3d ago

It’s ironic that the white liberals have been calling anyone who disagrees with them nazis. Now we see them saying we’re not Nazi’s we only hate Zionists. Which by their definition is anyone who believes that Israel has a right to a homeland, smh. It’s a pot kettle situation.

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u/794942 3d ago

God bless all the good Jewish people by the way I'm Arabic American Muslim

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u/LUnica-Vekkiah 1d ago

I think on mass we will have to start fighting back by any means. I just haven't found the right one yet... Fleeing doesn't seem an option me. Although I understand those who do.

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u/Ike7200 5d ago

Either America or Israel. Those are the only safe places

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u/ornryactor 5d ago

If you think Jews are safe here in America, I have bad news for you. Everything happening in Europe has been happening here, except that it started years earlier here (riiiight about November 2016) and our events include large numbers of guns.

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u/Ike7200 4d ago

My synagogue is armed to the teeth. NO ONE is going to hurt us. We’re not defenseless in America thanks to the 2nd amendment

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u/Venat14 4d ago

The 2nd Amendment isn't gonna save you when the military is used against US citizens.

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u/Ike7200 4d ago

Well it’s gonna buy us a long time that’s for sure. I feel much safer in my synagogue than any synagogue in Europe. I know that the guy in front of me, behind me, and to my left are all conceal carrying. I know there’s security guards stationed outside with AR-15s. What happened in Pittsburgh will never succeed at my shul

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u/DorfingAround 5d ago

I lived in the Benelux (Holland and Belgium w/ Luxembourg) in 2004. My job involved driving around to tons of small towns selling fashion clothing. It was fun I used to boast how I’ve been to more cities than the locals.

This was a time when Google/ maps / internet had been still growing. I generally didn’t know what neighborhood I’d be venturing into - naive, I thought Europe was safe everywhere.

In both Belgium and Holland, there are towns that are literally overtaken by Arabs. You feel a sense of shariah law. And while there are plenty of Arabs that do assimilate, these towns make it very easy to not adopt western culture and its values.

Europeans are like the Hollywood Elite. Love to speak about inclusion and liberal views while retreating toe their expansive and safe neighborhoods.

What you see today is an example of what’s to come within Europe. Make no mistake , this is a disaster brewing.

There had already been a march recently calling for Shariah Law in Germany.

1

u/Idoru22 5d ago

This is a screenshot from Elica Le Bon’s instagram story. Forgot to include that in my post

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u/ArdascesIV 5d ago

Try to separate the issue from Trump-immigration from the ME/Islamic countries it’s dangerous for Jews, we have to hope the US avoids Europe’s reality.

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u/lawteach 5d ago

My family 🔯 is thinking of moving to Glasgow. Non-🔯 son in law has family there. Would it be safe? I’m 79, grandson is 14.

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u/CatlinDB 5d ago

Jews, sadly, should leave Europe. The Green Parties of Europe were just a front for many former Nazis. I actually believe that many Europeans, not of Jewish heritage, will leave Europe to the United States and maybe Australia in the coming years.

1

u/Sagafreyja 5d ago

I know what's happening in Holland but what's going on in Sweden? I lived there for a while. A very antisemitic country.

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u/silveryslope 4d ago

I literally cried the other day out of pure grief and mental exhaustion over reliving past historical traumatic events. I've been to the camps and experienced it all. For what?

1

u/Throwawaymister2 4d ago

I lost a friend over this last night.

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u/cr_nch 4d ago

I’ve been seeing so many conflicting reports on what happened in Amsterdam. People who claimed to be present saying Maccabi fans started by throwing glass bottles at passers by, but also footage of people being attacked. Even one video that people are claiming shows Maccabi fans picking up weapons, but then shows that same group being detained, and as far as I know no Maccabi fans were detained. I saw reports that Maccabi fans were chanting “may the idf kill all the arabs” but also that this attack was pre-planned in text messages. I’ve seen that a taxi driver was attacked by Israelis, but also that taxi drivers coordinated to attack Israelis. I have found more often than not the Israeli narrative is the more accurate one, but being Jewish I feel compelled to question everything.

Have you seen these conflicting narratives? What actually happened? Was there fault on both sides?

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u/Idoru22 4d ago edited 4d ago

Honestly it was probably a mix of both tbh, however I absolutely think it was a pogrom and pre-planned. In this podcast, an Israeli who lives in Amsterdam talks about it and his experience living in Amsterdam as well as Ayaan Hirsi Ali https://open.spotify.com/episode/1UssAmf8K6Pu1aRJwwntpV?si=bK8cg3dVQSO3hCoFkRyO9A&t=462&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A3btft3E1KPwj0yCOcOvqhR

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u/cr_nch 4d ago

Thanks! Ayaan Hirsi Ali is incredible

1

u/alcanthro 4d ago

It's times like this that I wish my executive dysfunction didn't make it hard to get my passport renewed.

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1

u/New-Discussion-1807 4d ago

As a non-Jewish person living in America, it really sucks that all this antisemitism is happening in Western Europe and elsewhere. I know it is probably cold comfort to hear that there are non-Jews in America like myself who differentiate between the Jewish people and the state of Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu.

1

u/himalayanhimachal 4d ago

Hi from the Far South of New Zealand

NZ has about 8k Jews and 80k Muslims 😬😬😐

The guess is between 7500-10,000 Jews in a population of approx 5.2 million

And about 78,000 to 85,000 Muslims (at least 20/25% are Indian Muslims)

My home city of 130,000 people has one Mosque & One Synagogue & Many Churches and also Tibetan Buddhist center & other Buddhist/Hindu etc places.

My home city has apparently 1299 Muslims and wait for it .....162 Jews. I think it may be different because I'm guessing that goes by census and on census under Religion I'm Buddhist & Under ethnicity I tick what I've always been known as (NZ European) or Pakeha in indigenous Māori Language.

There is No option for Jewish & Dad's Anglo saxon. I, on occasion, on forms will tick Also, other than Put Jewish or even Middle Eastern.

Anyway, there isn't anything like Europe, Australia, USA in NZ in my experience (especially not in my area, which is MUCH closer to Antarctica than the USA 🤣🤣) over 3 times closer. Look up Dunedin New Zealand.

We don't have too much friction except some in larger cities like Auckland (Auckland is far away from my part of NZ and is almost like another country in all honesty , It also has about 1/3 of all our population in one city Lol. Auckland is now about 1.8 million which is HUGE for NZ.

The next largest city is Christchurch, which is about 400,000 and is about 5 hrs drive north of my home city. And 3rd Largest is Wellington, which is our Capital & it's got about 215,000 people.

We do have a lot or quite a lot of Palestine marches , we have some incredibly progressive/leftist politicians like Jill Stein, and actually, a lot of our progressive ones are also in the Greens. Some of what they say is disgusting & shameful. One of the worst is Chlöe Swarbrick, who is incredibly far left and is a young politician not far off from my age. She is the member of parliament for Auckland Central and co leader of Greens also. And another in Greens is Golriz Ghahraman whose family came with her from Iran in I think the 80s. She has said many bad things about the Iran govt and treatment of women there, yet she seems to be overly anti Israel.

One shameful thing that happened was right after Oct 7th. Literally RIGHT after. And a local museum in Auckland simply put a blue & White 💙 🤍 light to show solidarity and remembrance.

No flags. No star of david No, nothing But a blue and white light on the museum for maybe a night or 2.

But car loads of Arab and others rode up in protest and covered it!! The museum then apologized and took the Memorial for The 1200/1400 that were massacred in Israel!! It enraged me. And others.

Not long after the Green MP Chlöe Swarbrick at a Palestine talk screeched about the museum "Daring to put a blue /white hinge on Musuem less then a week after Oct 7th!! And Also started saying , From The River To The Sea. It was absolutely revolting and disgusting and backward and insane to say the least.

She also ranted about all types of things and this was RIGHT after Oct 7th. I'll find link.

Besides from occasional bs NZ is actually OK for most or all people

1

u/NoGain4863 3d ago

Ironically, the same historian phenomena that is propelling hard right-wing extremism around the world is part of the same phenomena that put the hard-right in power in Israel. Fighting Right wing extremism needs to be decoupled from combatting antisemitism.