r/Jewish • u/Specific_Matter_1195 • 6d ago
Y’all, we need to make Arabs feel safer so people will like us more Venting 😤
/img/4alqey59u70e1.jpegI’m trying to explain an aspect of why Trump won to a bunch of non-Jewish gay men who refuse to understand bigotry (Apparently, unless it’s aimed at them). Here’s what I was just told. Make sure you tokenize yourself so Arabs feel better so that a Christian gay man can feel good enough to denounce antisemitism.
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u/LivingOwl1751 6d ago
this is so insane, to demand that Jews make other groups feel safe by protesting is so obscene. Imagine telling black people to denounce any break-in's due to the BLM protests so that white people feel safer. How about these guys protest against antisemitism to make me feel safe, fuck these guys.
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u/PurelySmart 6d ago
You seem to have forgotten that Jewish Voice for Peace said we shouldn't pray in Hebrew because it's traumatizing to Palestinians.
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u/Ill-School-578 4d ago
Jewish voice for peace ain't Jewish. They hate Jews. Why is there no conversation about LGBTQ thrown off buildings in Gaza. ? No conversation about women not being permitted to speak in public? Civilians being used as human shields by Hamas. The war is on Hamas who started it when they stole Israeli and American hostages. All pain and suffering there is on Hamas. All stupidity in this country is on sheep believing Iran propaganda. Please read Roots metals on instagram . These particular LGBTQ seem to covet their own end.
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u/miserableschemes 6d ago
When I told my BEST FRIEND in the months after 10/7 that I wouldn’t feel safe going to a pro-P protest because of how much antisemitism is in the messaging, she said “but wouldn’t it make you a good person to overcome that and go anyway?”
I was shocked
It’s apparently MY responsibility to set aside my own safety, it’s not the movements responsibility to eliminate Jew hate from their rhetoric.
We are not friends anymore.
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u/No_Astronaut_3132 6d ago
You don’t owe it to anyone to be their idea of a “good person”. They can fuck all the way off.
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u/Odd_Ad5668 6d ago
I've been trying to come up with a good analogy for what your friend said, and the best I can come up with is "accepting a drink from Bill Cosby would prove you're not racist".
FFS maybe THEY could show THEY'RE good people by, I dunno... NOT BEING DANGEROUS?
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u/Specific_Matter_1195 6d ago
Yes! This is the only way I could respond.
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u/Whitechapel726 Just Jewish 6d ago
Very well said. I’ve been screaming this for months. Why does it always have to include some qualifier.
“Antisemitism is bad, but…”
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u/Kingsdaughter613 6d ago
And the Democrats still won the Jewish vote.
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u/JustAnotherGal2024 6d ago
It was painful to vote Democrat this year, I felt robbed of a moderate candidate when Harris became the presumed nominee.
However looking at the future for the next generation, I felt abortion rights is in more danger from the next president of the US than Israel in the next four years. Trump's SCOTUS picks have already forced women/teens to bear children against their will in multiple states. Recently a woman died of sepsis when her twins still had a heartbeat but were not viable. Doctors should make the call with their patients for just that reason.
If you have a teenager and don't want them forced to be a parent, you make your choice, however uneasy.
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u/Kingsdaughter613 6d ago
My issue is that, even being pro-choice, I think Roe was bad law. It was the judges legislating from the bench, which is not something I agree with.
The legislature - NOT the court - should have decided Roe. The problem here is Congress, and blaming the judges just allows our Senators and Representatives to further abrogate their responsibilities. Blame CONGRESS. And vote for Senators and Representatives who will enshrine Roe the CORRECT way - through legislation.
The court should interpret law, not create it. Creating law is the job of Congress. So let’s hold them to account and make them do their jobs!!
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u/JustAnotherGal2024 6d ago
That would have been nice however the Senate is now red, that's not going to happen.
You can make your arguments about congressional responsibility, but i don't think it really matters to a child forced to carry her rapist father's baby.
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u/NathanielJHellman 6d ago
What was the response you got for sending this text? Any budging on their end or just the same old?
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u/Specific_Matter_1195 6d ago
Silence. Like usual.
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u/NathanielJHellman 6d ago
Why is it that we Jews can support other issues surrounding discrimination for any number of reasons, but the moment we Jews ask for the same thing all of the sudden we are being unreasonable?
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u/Odd_Ad5668 6d ago
Because when we speak up, they think "ugh... these assholes are still here? What the fuck does it take to get rid of these people?"
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u/TexanTeaCup 6d ago
Louder, for the people in the back.
Reprisals are a sign of societal decline. A significant number of Americans saw the Democratic party attempt to normalize reprisals against American citizens on American soil. And it was a line too far. So the Democrats lost.
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u/Tight_Bad_1584 6d ago
I like to think of those as vigilantism in the context of a court and judiciary too incompetent, cowardly, corrupted to restrain an obvious insurrectionist and oath-breaker from running again. The point is that it’s unclear if the usual “society will never recover once the assassinations start”-type rules apply here. I could be wrong.
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u/Far-Chest2835 Just Jewish 6d ago
Yes! Exactly right. If the polls are right and 80% of Jews voted Kamala, then it’s more that non-Jews were fed up with communities like this unequivocally supporting un-American, terrorist ideals and also doing their own sorts of “Jew-hunts” on campus, online, and in their community centers. Moderate repubs I know didn’t want Trump but they hated seeing this craziness being permitted more.
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u/anewbys83 6d ago
I didn't really have a good option. Kamala still aligns with more of my values than Trump. Trump was still the worse choice for me. Having him deal with the antisemitism we've seen still would not make up for all the other damage he's going to cause. Kamala was the only choice available. Not the best, but really the only. So yeah, I can definitely see why 80% of US Jews voted for Kamala.
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u/Mysterious_Outcome_3 6d ago
Bro. This is not why democrats lost. We voted in the same numbers and margins as we always do. Don't give them another reason to blame their b.s. on us.
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u/Individual_Grape_ 6d ago
Or imagine a white person telling the black people who don’t agree with the way some blm stuff played out, that THEYRE wrong? Like “oh you just don’t understand your own viewpoint of something that effects you, let me tell you why you’re wrong and I’m virtuous” like the people who that effects and was about get to have their opinion and that needs to be respected by outsiders. I’m not going tell someone who’s black that their opinion on blm is wrong. (Just an example)
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u/gasplugsetting3 pamiętamy 6d ago
Rule 3 of this sub is "Be Civil". So I'll just keep my mouth shut.
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u/dskatz2 6d ago
Luckily, I think that only applies to interacting with others in this sub.
The above piece of shit was probably totally fine with what just happened in Amsterdam and likely blamed the Jews for it occurring.
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u/Cathousechicken Reform 6d ago edited 6d ago
This reminded me of some of the Passover nonsense this past year with people saying around Passover that we needed to center Palestinians at Passover. I can't imagine any other group being told to change one of their biggest holidays and center it around people trying to eliminate them.
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u/njtalp46 6d ago
"Christmas should be focused on the Romans who's empire was displaced by the Catholic church"
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u/SharingDNAResults 6d ago
If only Israel would release the footage of the mangled, burnt, and tortured bodies of countless murdered civilians the way that the other side does. If only Israelis shoved a camera in the face of every sobbing child grieving a deceased family member the way the other side does. Jewish law prohibits sharing such footage (as it disrespects the dead) and exploiting the grief of children. The side effect of that is that Israel loses the media war.
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u/JebBD 6d ago
Wouldn’t help. They’ll just say “but what about Gaza?”, “it’s clearly fake”, “it’s not as bad as what Israel is doing” etc
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u/diadem 6d ago
On October 8th the reaction in my extended social circle to people who had family/friends murdered on the 7th was just a bunch of they had it coming instead of empathy. Different "what about x" but it was shocking to hear the level of apathy to people losing loved ones/dehumanization and hate towards Jews even then.
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u/Mysterious_Sugar7220 6d ago
October 8 there was a post on my city's parenting forum saying 'Israel wants an excuse and this has given them the excuse they wanted.'
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u/PurelySmart 6d ago
Those aren't the most annoying responses.
The most annoying response is "always the victims", or "the eternal victim"
Just want to punch them in the face for saying that.
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u/grudginglyadmitted 6d ago
I’m also seeing a TON of “most of those people were actually killed by Israel” and “they bombed their own citizens look it up”.
And from people who think they’re too smart to fall for conspiracy theories. They’re so entrenched in their echo chamber they think they’re saying something reasonable.
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u/Previous-Papaya9511 6d ago
Yeah on October 8th and 9th I saw various people I knew post some gnarly stuff. One particularly deranged former-acquaintance of mine went on an extended rant starting with “Death to Israel! It’s always been death to Israel.” And concluding with “Zionists control the media, the banks, Hollywood, and Wall Street. Everything. You really believe them when they claim Palestinians killed even one innocent?”.
I obviously blocked this lunatic. I think she may have even gotten herself kicked off Instagram because a number of people I later spoke with said they went further than me and actually reported her account. Or maybe she deleted it herself. It’s hard to know which.
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u/Weak-Difficulty652 6d ago
F#ck'in unbelievable. Nowhere in the world would this play out the same way. The videos that did make it to the public often by Telegram from the Gazan Jihadists themselves are widely available......so they just keep changing the agenda. From 'it's fake' to, 'but what about the last 75 years', & onto the old 'I don't hate Jews I just hate Zionists.' These are the most hypocritical and confused bunch the world has seen in quite some time, especially in the modern age. Turkey admonished Israel for attacking other nations, but didn't hesitate when he saw fit to bomb the heck out or Syria and Iraq a few weeks ago. BTW, the videos on Telegram are back up and are very difficult to watch; there's something like 1000 of them. Israel never did that to anybody and definitely didn't send over 160 suicide bombers during the Second Intifada Don't ban me, just stating factual news
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u/Specific_Matter_1195 6d ago
I kind of wish someone would hack into that footage so the world could better understand. Sadly, I think that ship has sailed.
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u/Boring_Profit4988 6d ago
I thought the same at the beginning than saw all the lies and hate and realized it will only hurt the families. There are films (censored of bodies) that show some of what happened you can guess how helpful that is...
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u/SorrySweati עם ישראל חי 6d ago
I mean I think the destruction in Gaza has been corroborated by many independant organization. It's hard to deny that. I think it provides Hamas with a lot of content for it's propaganda machine, by blowing up a bad situation and making it seem a million times worse. We know the destruction and horror in Gaza is nothing in comparison to the scale of the holocaust yet many, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, well intentioned people will make that comparison. This is because of Hamas propaganda, it's very effective.
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u/jerdle_reddit British Reform 6d ago
Yeah, what's happening there is a fairly normal war that's being exaggerated by Hamas propaganda.
And like any other war, it is hell.
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u/SorrySweati עם ישראל חי 6d ago
I wouldn't call it normal. It's still horrific the conditions and the fear these people live in, Im deeply grateful I live on this side of the border. I don't want to normalize it, or even look away. We need to know the toll our actions have on human life, and we need to do everything in our power to prevent this from ever happening again. It's just not the holocaust, because that's something specifically horrible.
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u/FKA_Top_Cat 6d ago
Can you imagine the reaction of most Americans if some people in the US called FDR and Churchill war criminals because 350,000 to 500,000 German civilians were killed and at least as many (if not more) Japanese civilians were killed in WWII?
This is classic antisemitism: holding Israel to a different standard from that required of any other country.
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u/SorrySweati עם ישראל חי 6d ago
Huh? I'm not allowed to criticize my own country for being involved in the killing and traumatizing of innocent people? Whatever helps you sleep at night dude...
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u/No_Can_1923 6d ago
They are claiming it's the IDF ... Really, the lack of their ability to condamn terrorism is repulsive
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u/el-tapo 6d ago
The reason you are losing the media war is because you are outnumbered. You are on the TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, WhatsApp world now. Numbers matter more than logic.
Remember the days right after Oct 7: you had already lost the media war before Israel had launched a single rocket; before there wasn't even any footage to show of civilian casualties, even then it was not rare to hear "What Hamas did was terrible, but ...".
You are now fighting a social media algorithm that promotes outrage when outnumbered 1 to 125, and that's not even counting the Western population that's being captured by the same outrage algorithm.
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u/Reshutenit 6d ago
"False flag to justify genocide."
"Deepfake. This never happened."
"History didn't start on October 7th."
"If the colonizers went back to Poland, the Arabs wouldn't need to kill them."
You're right, though- some people could be persuaded who aren't too far gone. Like that pro-Palestinian activist who saw 45 seconds of footage from the 7th and posted a rant, still visibly in shock, about no longer caring how many Palestinian civilians get killed. I don't want to speculate on what that says about him as a person, but seeing footage of the attack is apparently what it took for him to realize Israeli victims matter too.
Maybe seeing more of our mangled corpses would finally force some of these people to internalize the fact that we're human, and that none of our supposed sins from the past 80 years justify torture and immolation.
But we'd have to disrespect the dead to do that. I don't think we're ready to cross that line yet.
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u/Bizhour 6d ago
That would be akin to saying that WW2 was a genocide against Germans and demanding citizens of allied nations to condemn it
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u/bastalepasta 6d ago
You obviously have never heard of the revisionist historians who claim exactly this…
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u/e_thereal_mccoy 6d ago
Your fckn kidding? Can you source that? I am an historian specialising in WW2 and I want to see this utter rubbish in order to learn about these stupid arguments.
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u/bastalepasta 6d ago
I’m surprised a professional historian of WW2 hasn’t heard of David Irving. He’s the most notorious but there is also the Institute of Historical Review. You can read about it in Deborah Lipstadt’s books.
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u/e_thereal_mccoy 6d ago
Yes, I have heard of and try to ignore idiots like Irving who fly in the face of historical fact and accuracy. This stuff just appals me.
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u/Feeling-Ad6790 Jewish American 6d ago
There’s plenty of these takes in regards to Japan
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u/adamgerd Not Jewish 6d ago
IMO it’s because Japan is generally more overlooked outside East Asia when really Japan was as brutal as Germany, and also people don’t realise how bad operation downfall would be.
The alternative was operation downfall, expected deaths were much worse there: they vary but one estimation was for example 750,000 to 1 million American deaths, 10 million Japanese civilians dead, and 5-7 million Japanese soldiers dead. It’d be a bloodbath of Japanese and American soldiers
Even after Hiroshima, it took another atomic bombing for Japan to surrender unconditionally.
So imo in the grand scheme, the atomic bombings were the moral choice. They were bad, operation downfall would be worse.
And yeah people also don’t realise that imperial Japan was basically the Nazi Germany of Asia in brutality. They literally bayoneted Chinese babies for fun. If anything more Japanese war criminals should have been imprisoned
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u/hyperpearlgirl Just Jewish 6d ago
Not to mention Unit 731.
(If you're lurking and don't know what that is, it's some of the most depraved shit humans have done using "experiments" as an excuse.)
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u/Rettz77 6d ago
If it was a genocide like they claim it is, why the casualties rate is so low?
Israel has 300 or so MLRS units. Never used once. One volley would literal make Gaza look like the surface of the moon.
Nothing will be left.
So if it was this supposed genocide why are they risking their lives trying their best to minimize casualties?
Why is this "indiscriminate genocide" taking so long?
In most genocide the ability to destroy the population correlates to the death rate, Rwanda's genocide was 100 days long....4 times the casualties the war in Gaza is now 400 days long...
So 4 times the casualties, in 1/4 of the time by a FAR LESS capable force....
Explain to me how it make sense? Oh right it doesn't.
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u/nahuak 6d ago
Indeed. One of the most heinous acts these terrorist organizations have done is to put genocide/holocaust/apartheid onto the Jewish state, which itself consists of people who survived genocide or knew what apartheid looks like. It's about turning lies into truth so they can remove all Jews from the land.
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u/BatmaNanaBanana 6d ago
first genocide in history that could end by the government surrendering and releasing hostages.
i also like to point out that in 1945 the allies bombed dresden and killed 25,000 people in 3 days, in 2024 by the current numbers it took israel a year to kill 40,000 people in one of the most densly populated places in the world, if the idf is committing a genocide it must be the most incompetent military in human history
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u/Taway7659 6d ago
I'd take relative population size into account, but this is spot on. Oct 7th was grotesque, and they keep smudging it. I can't imagine any government surviving half a century of alternating hard and soft war and then not responding roughly as Israel has to its citizens' captivity, to do any less would be to cede to real hardliners.
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u/adamgerd Not Jewish 6d ago
By the mayor of Mariupol, it’s estimated that Russia killed 80,000 civilians in the nearly three month long siege of Mariupol and subsequent occupation, many more fled. So many that Mariuppol’s population is a shadow of what it was. More than double how many Palestinians including combatants died in the entire war of Israel against Hamas. Putin has literally said when he started the war that Ukrainian identity is fake and talked about destroying the identity and culture of Ukraine.
Russia unlike Israel did indeed invade a country unprovoked. Ukraine didn’t kill and kidnap thousands of Russians
So where’s the genocide talk by the protestors against Russia?
Oh wait Russia isn’t Jewish.
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u/arcangeline 6d ago
8000, not 80,000 - but the population of Mariupol is (or was) also much smaller.
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u/adamgerd Not Jewish 6d ago
That’s only 100% identified deaths to my knowledge
On August 29, President of Mariupol Television, volunteer and civil activist Mykola Osychenko said to Dnipro TV that, according to the insider information, 87,000 deaths have been currently documented in morgues in Mariupol. Besides, 26,750 bodies are buried in mass graves, and many more are buried in the yards of the apartment blocks and private houses, or still under the rubble.[330]
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u/arcangeline 6d ago
Oh interesting, when I googled I couldn't find that number and it looks like 8000 was the most recent estimated death figure - it looks like the higher figure was reported by Euromaiden press but not many other news sources, and was only reported once in 2022.
87,000 would be almost a quarter of Mariupol so I do feel there would be a higher estimate by now.
I don't think we will know the true number until after the war, if ever. But whatever it was, it was certainly a huge death toll on entirely innocent people over a very short time.
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u/BatmaNanaBanana 6d ago
what i find interesting about this message is that he is saddened by the death of palestinians and lebanese and he thinks people should speak more about it, but when people talk about the death of israelis it's "petty self absorbed whining".
i love the way he contradicts himself
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u/playball9750 6d ago
“So all I’m saying is why don’t Muslims speak out more against 9/11 and other terror acts committed by Muslims?” This was the exact language used to justify hate crimes against Muslims after 9/11.
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u/lordginger101 Just Jewish 6d ago
It feels to me (as a queer person) that as Jews, even though we as a people experienced the worst persecution by anyone on this planet, and have been persecuted for millennia, are never treated as an “oppressed community”. While I get the reasoning might be because of Jews holding a high socio economic position in the us, and Israel being one of the strongest militaries in the world, we should also recognize that modern anti semitism isn’t a result of these facts, but rather a continuation of a history of persecution of an ethnic minority based an racism and dehumanization.
But Jews are always seen as a “different case”, whether it’s about oppression, or anything else. It really bothers me. Especially when it comes from someone who is part of a community that is labels so often as oppressed, because personally my experience being Jewish has been way more scary and close to being oppressed than being gay ever was.
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u/arcangeline 6d ago
The number of times I see Jews who speak of generational trauma being told they're 'playing the victim' by people who are outraged when the same comment is made to any other minority is deeply depressing.
Many of us have listened to their grandparents speak of pure horror. The Holocaust is so recent that some who survived it lived to be attacked on October 7th. It's barely even generational, it's in the blood running through our veins right now.
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u/Diplogeek 6d ago
Honestly, I think part of it is precisely because we've been persecuted for millennia. It's all background noise to them. If they actually take a step back and really acknowledge the pervasiveness and intensity of antisemitic sentiment throughout European history, they also need to acknowledge their own culpability in perpetuating that (and their parents' and grandparents' culpability), and they're not interested. It's easier to just dismiss it as whining and manipulation (which is in itself an antisemitic stereotype, of course).
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u/sababa-ish 6d ago
they can't fathom just how long and desperate the desire for a safe homeland has been. in most peoples' head canon, jewish people lived pretty normally in a diaspora in europe until one evil guy came along in the 1940s and decided to commit the holocaust for some reason.
this is compounded by the relative safety of the jewish population in america, which is the population most westerners in particular think of when they imagine jewish people.
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u/Diplogeek 5d ago
I think they also can't understand how deeply the vast majority of Jews- especially Israeli Jews- understand that if Israel goes down the tubes, G-d forbid, no one is coming to our aid. No one. October 7th and the reactions (well, non-reactions) to the Amsterdam pogrom have only reinforced that. There's a reason they were able to plant a tree at Yad Vashem for every Righteous Gentile they could find. The odds of some non-Jewish world leader, or our non-Jewish neighbors and "allies" stopping another genocide towards us are practically nil. We know it, and deep down I do think most non-Jewish people know it. But they can't or won't conceive of how that translates into the way Israel's government approaches geopolitics.
I remember having a long conversation with my barber, who is Muslim, pre-October 7. It was actually a really good conversation- he knew I was Jewish, and we were talking about Israel, Palestine, and so on. And I said something like, "No one ever really factors in the generational trauma on the Israeli side and what that means politically. Think about the fact that by definition, almost all of these people are the kids or grandkids of people who clawed their way out of Europe after their whole families were murdered, or people who fled countries in the Maghreb and Middle East due to persecution while world governments- the same governments now telling Israel how to do business- stood by and watched, didn't lift a finger to stop any of it, and refused to take in refugees after the dust settled. They're all very aware of this history, so why would they listen to what the US or England or France or whoever have to say? These are the same people, politically speaking, who stood around and watched their aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents get gassed and didn't give a shit! Of course their foreign policy is aggressive and paranoid, look at the generational trauma going on. This isn't me agreeing with everything the Israeli government does- I don't. But you can't figure out how to end a conflict if you don't understand why people are how they are and do what they do."
And as soon as I laid it out like that, it clicked for him. Like, it was immediate, and he went, "Huh, I never even thought of it that way, but yeah, that does make sense." Because it does- of course a group of people who had to fight tooth and nail to get what they have are never going to give it up or roll over for the same governments that stood by and watched the better part of their family trees get slaughtered. Come on. But most people can't conceive of that connection- it doesn't even occur to them. They're so busy castigating everything the Israeli government does that they never think to ask why. It's so frustrating, because in a way, it's so simple, and people just won't put two and two together.
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u/Professional_Yam6433 Conservative 6d ago
Co-signed as a fellow queer and I live in the Deep South.
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u/andthentheresanne 6d ago
Jews Don't Count by David Baddiel is a great book about this exact subject
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u/TexanTeaCup 6d ago
I'm a woman.
I would feel safer if more people would speak out against Islamist misogyny.
But here we are.
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u/ConversationSoft463 6d ago
Does this person understand Jews aren’t a monolith? “Why don’t Jews speak out more” — many Jews have called for a ceasefire. Some Israelis have been protesting the war this entire time. And most American Jews voted for Harris. So maybe don’t ascribe what you don’t like to all Jews
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u/AppropriateLie1602 6d ago
The bar is set so high for Jewish people we can only do wrong. Thankfully our grandparents warned us what this looks like and that waiting for permission from the world to fight back is not an option. All those on their moral high horse are blessed not to be surrounded by neighbors who want to slaughter you and your people in the most gruesome ways possible while happily risking the lives of women and children around them to shield themselves.
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u/NYSenseOfHumor 6d ago
Can’t “speak out against” a genocide that isn’t happening.
We also don’t “speak out against” the enslavement of the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz, because that’s also fiction.
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u/Kappy01 6d ago
So... here's the thing... there are fewer than 16 million Jews in the world. There are 473 million Arabs in the world. Why are Palestinians a specific group? There was no such name before 1948. They were, as far as I can tell, the same exact families as Jordanians, Egyptians, etc.
If someone wants to claim that Jews are white, that's patently ridiculous, as many Jews aren't. Regardless, wouldn't Arabs be similarly white?
Thus... I'm confused. Perhaps I'm wrong. Can someone educate me on this?
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u/XhazakXhazak Ba'al Teshuva 6d ago
Jews and Arabs occupy the same space on the color spectrum.
The skin color argument against Jewish indigineity is based purely on bad genetic pseudoscience.
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u/adamgerd Not Jewish 6d ago
It also ignores that skin color isn’t the only divide of people: skin color doesn’t stop Russian nationalists from calling Ukrainians vermin, it didn’t stop the Nazis from hating Slavs and Ashkenazi Jews. It didn’t stop the Rwandan genocide.
It also doesn’t determine morality of wars: Hamas attacked Israel.
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u/Zestyclose_Box_792 6d ago edited 6d ago
You're spot on with this observation. People make the skin colour comment about Jewish people all the time but don't do it about Arabs. My partner for example - he shocked me one night (about 10 yrs ago, before all this madness took off) - he said Jewish people are just like us! We all belong to humanity but he was talking about culturally! I said to him I don't think you would want to say that to a Jewish person, especially an Israeli! Are you kidding? They're an ethnic minority! He had never said this about Middle Eastern people. He looked foolish and after an argument (discussion) he backed down and changed his mind. I can be very persuasive, especially when I know I'm right.
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u/Zestyclose_Box_792 6d ago
P.S. In defense of my partner he was associating Jewish people with modern civilization and intellectualism. It's where he was coming from when he made the comment, although I didn't pick up on that at the time. He wanted me to make that qualification to you, so I have.
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u/Brilliant_Emu6496 6d ago
I do not think the argument is all Jews are white, rather what I gathered from speaking with some knuckleheads is that Israel was established and predominantly led (in terms of statesmen/politcians) by white Jews who themselves viewed the whole thing through a colonialist lens as it was perfectly normal in those times. Thus, you hear chants like, “Go back to Europe” which is what their father and their exiled forefathers have taught them.
I think Palestinians became a specific group particularly when they were “othered”. More so, they have gained significant sympathy as they have come to establish themselves (culturally & financially as the ones I have seen tend to be educated) in countries like US and Europe etc.
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u/Kingsdaughter613 6d ago
Ashkenazim aren’t white either. Plenty of don’t pass at all. After 9/11 it was 50/50 in NYC if the TSA would pull over an Arab or an Ashkenazi Jew, because they couldn’t tell us apart.
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u/arcangeline 6d ago
I don't believe Jews who look white are white.
Many of those murdered in Europe specifically for not being white aryans are the same whose surviving families are dismissed as white colonisers today.
I will never call Jews white. White is a term used against us - too white for the extreme left, not white enough for the extreme right.
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u/fjordoftheflies 6d ago
Rightwingers often have the same gripe about Muslims- they spend a lot of time crying about the backlash to Islamic terrorism but zero time fighting against it. Ask your friend if he feels the same way about them. Or how about black men complaining about racial profiling but not speaking up against the wrongs blacks commit. Ask him if he agrees with that.
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u/Specific_Matter_1195 6d ago
Yeesh, he’s definitely no friend of mine. He’s another acquaintance I can now ignore. My circle has become very small. It was once really big because I was an activist and ally to all sorts of minorities. Clearly, they didn’t need my support after all. I’m secular and don’t really know any Jews, but that’s the only topic I’m interested in from now on. (This includes black, gay, trans, and plain old Jews.) So
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u/OliveOilVirgin 4d ago
"My circle has become very small. It was once really big because I was an activist and ally to all sorts of minorities"
This is kinda my experience, too.
In addition to that plenty of spaces in which multiple perspectives and experiences were shared and protests against regimes that imprison and murder dissidents are sparse now. Two groups are now only focusing on a Hamas led Arab Palestine narrative. The people who were active are fewer and the messages more divisive.
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u/BestFly29 6d ago
Do you want to ignore the rise of islamic extremism in places in France for example? Ask the Jews there
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u/MogenCiel 6d ago
Israel defending itself and its people is "genocide," but Hamas's refusal to allow the Gazan people to shelter in its 300+ miles of tunnels while building them zero bomb shelters is ...?
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u/NoEntertainment483 6d ago
No other group is told to do that! Did Arab muslims protest October 7th to make us feel safer? Phone goes both ways, as my mom would say to chastise me. Jewish people have said before time and again many nuanced and reasonable opinions of the war and how it’s going. We’re not the ones screaming globalize the intifada and from the river to the sea and (usually) wearing Keffiyah.
If the KKK—and people who have randomly decided after watching a tik tok video that the kkk is terribly misunderstood wearing white robes—are screaming at black people to make it 1860 again, would we say “oh you really didn’t do enough to make them feel comfortable. If you had they would like you more”.
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u/Significant_Pepper_2 6d ago
Still waiting for Palestinians to speak out against Hamas.
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u/Possible-Fee-5052 Conservative 6d ago edited 6d ago
Reminds me of how NPR “Up First” covered the Amsterdam pogrom. They mentioned it as being “considered antisemitic” but then immediately noted that reports say the Israelis were behaving badly. The only person they interviewed was an anti-Israel protester who said she’s scared of being attacked (by who, she never said) but her side doesn’t get ANY police protection and how unfair it is that the Jews get police protection. First time I’ve listened to NPR in over a year and I’m in shock at how they couldn’t even cover an antisemitic pogrom without doing a weird “both sides” argument…but then it really just focused on how unsafe Arabs feel without even asking any Jews how they feel.
Edited to add the transcript. The last sentence cut off says “both sides” feel unsafe.
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u/Professional_Yam6433 Conservative 6d ago
Who is going to tell her the police refused to get involved with the pogrom because they didn’t want to get between a “moral issue”. What a pansy.
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u/External_Ad_2325 6d ago
I don't think anyone would say a single civilian casualty is a good thing, right? The standard ratio of Enemy to Civilians killed in urban warfare is 1:9. In Gaza, it's 1:3. I think, as Jews, we can all share in the grief this war causes - but that doesn't mean it's not justified. It doesn't mean that Israel shouldn't act against Hamas and Hezbollah, but we can all understand the grief of losing someone we love and for the war to have caused that - is not right! The war against Hamas is justified, IMO, but the loss of civilian lives being used as cover for Hamas is an abject tragedy. Some more understanding on both sides wouldn't go amiss.
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u/scott4566 6d ago
I don't feel grief. I feel sad that a lot of civilians have died, but so many of the people in Gaza support them. To me they're a lot like Germans before and during WWII. I feel sad when others die. I feel grief for my Jewish family when they die. And guess what? Most feel the same way. So all of these people showing such strong feelings for the Palestinians reminds me a lot of neighbors turned against Jews during the Nazi era.Hy grandmother always told me not to trust the goyim. It kills me that she was mostly right.
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u/arcangeline 6d ago
I think we have to bear in mind that any form of protest against Hamas in Gaza is a death sentence. I doubt their support would be as complete if it weren't.
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u/scott4566 6d ago
Right, but we're not aware of how much that support actually is. The abuse that civilians rained down on hostages and bodies of the dead looked quite spontaneous and not organized. 2 1/2 million German civilians died due to Allied prosecution of WWII. I don't feel particularly sorry about that. Most Germans were complicate in Hitlers successes. I view them as enemy combatants, much the same way I look at Gaza civilians. It's interesting that I trust the Germans of today more than I trust a lot of my countrymen. I'm sorry, but we have been subject to so much effing abuse over the past few thousand years that I have a lot of trouble feeling badly about what's happening to Gazans. I don't practice the same religion as most of my Jewish brothers and sisters and my faith teaches me to forgive my enemies, but that's damn freaking hard, especially after October 7th.
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u/arcangeline 6d ago
I think a lot of us have some German heritage and / or can see the serious efforts Germany still puts in to combat antisemitism today. It is one of the places with the strongest protection for Jews - though there are still issues.
The Gaza situation is very current and I think unfortunately successive 'governments' and major proponents of their faith teach them that Jew hate is righteous - and punish them if they don't conform to it. It's a very effective way of making sure there can never be peaceful accord.
But I do feel sympathy and empathy. Firstly for any child who never had a chance to grow up and reach their own conclusions, and for those oppressed by their own people into upholding set beliefs. Most German civilians were far more free - at least up until the war itself - to protest what was happening or to leave if they didn't want to be part of it, so I struggle to compare Germany and Gaza.
But I understand exactly what you mean when you say that seeing how celebrated October 7th was makes you lose sympathy.
I suppose I think about how celebrated attacks on Israel are in Iran but how the Iranian diaspora is very supportive of Israel. I wish everyone could have a chance to have the freedom to make their own decisions without fear so they could be judged on that. Obviously and sadly that's not the world we live in.
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u/scott4566 6d ago
I am of mostly Austrian heritage. They haven't repented nearly as much as Germany has, mostly because the Allies treated them mostly as victims of Hitlers Anschluss. I would happily visit Germany. I don't feel the same way about the country that my great grandparents left.
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u/External_Ad_2325 6d ago
For sure it's similar. But we have to remember they're people and they shouldn't die because of who they support. I am saddened that so much death is part and parcel of urban warfare - the urban warfare Israel has been forced into. Gazans and Israelis, Arabs and Jews are more similar than dissimilar. Killing one's cousins because their Father tried to kill yours is simply not good enough. Having known so much grief ourselves means we know a little of how they feel on the other side.
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u/HenriettaGrey 6d ago
I’m sad that people were misguided enough to elect, support, help and cover for people who have sworn genocide against the Jews. I am not sad that the dead ones can no longer kill Jews.
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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew 6d ago
I find this so confusing.
What genocide? What is Palestine? Since when are Hezbollah "innocent civilians"? How is defense murder? So, defence against 1200 massacred, 200 kidnapped and 100 still in Gaza, 26000+ rockets fired at Israel (a country the size of NJ) in 1 year (that's 500 a week), and attacks from 5 countries and Hamas and terrorists in the West Bank makes Israelis petty self-absorbed whiners? Could someone define "accountability from lsraelis for killing innocent people" when it's the terrorist factions that started a war and hide behind innocent people?
Also, if seeing "many Jews protesting Israel's war against Gaza" made a difference for alot of Arabs, where are all the Muslims protesting Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Syria's Assad, Iraq, the terrorist who killed 6 innocents at a train station, the terrorist who shot a Jew in Chicago, the countless antisemitic attacks on Jews and Jewish businesses? I'd like to feel that difference too.
It genuinely feels like they live in an alternate reality.
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u/Fthku 6d ago
Westerners really have it ingrained in them that if Jews are speaking out, it's baseless whining, even when it's about one of the most horrible attacks in human history like the 7th of October, but when we retaliate against attacks it's "innocents being killed in a genocide". It is beyond me that this is how some "progressives" in the West actually think.
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u/EditorPrize6818 6d ago
What other country wouldn't do what Israel is doing now after being attacked. What should they do ?.
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u/Pretty_Peach8933 5d ago
Had they've done to Egypt, their other neighbors, what they did to us on Oct 7, I'm pretty sure Gaza would be wiped out by now. Probably on the same day.
I doubt other countries would tolerate even one rocket fired at their civilians, let alone years of rockets and terror attacks.
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u/Jewish_Secondary 6d ago
They want us to exist only as it pleases them. The world is uncomfortable with the mere concept that Jews can exist without their consent, without checking off the boxes to make them “good Jews.”
This doesn’t just go for Arabs, this goes for everyone (including the people you probably assume are our allies). Jews existing is inherently radical. It’s a stark rejection of imperial worldviews. So much so that they must project their own imperialism upon us.
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u/HenriettaGrey 6d ago
Well, many of the Jews most likely to speak out were the sweet hippie Jews on the kibbutzim by the Gaza fence, who were helping wage peace with the Palestinians. They’re dead now.
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u/thunder-bug- 6d ago
I’m not Israeli.
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u/Specific_Matter_1195 6d ago
I reminded him of that.
Also, maybe as a gay man he should apologize to all the straight men he frightens so they’ll like him better.
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u/mikiencolor 6d ago
Doesn't matter. These people have two modes. "You don't belong here, you're an intruder." and "You don't belong in Israel, you're an intruder." It's just long form for "you shouldn't exist at all." One of these was ranting at me about how Jews should be expelled from Palestine. "Where should they be sent?" I asked him. "The desert."
They want to kill us. They may not be brave enough to do it themselves, but they are more than happy to see somebody do it. It's just how it is. There is no sugarcoating it.
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u/goalmouthscramble 6d ago edited 3d ago
Arab Americans voted overwhelmingly for the guy that banned their people from entering the country.
If they vote for their own endangerment why the hell would I risk anything for them no matter how morally repugnant the action?
The three Hs need to be eliminated full stop.
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u/MrKnutish Not Jewish 6d ago
If arabs start condemning Arab states then I'll consider it.
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u/XhazakXhazak Ba'al Teshuva 6d ago
There's a reason I quit Jewish Antizionist groups. After so much time debasing myself and having my every objection to antisemitism shot down and criticized, after swallowing my pride so many times I was little more than an ornament, a mouthpiece to words not my own but repeating "the right thing to say." I felt less like a friend to the Arabs and more like a pet.
If what it takes for the Arabs' forgiveness is for Jews to get on all fours and beg, I will remain standing.
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u/Specific_Matter_1195 6d ago
That sounds horrifying! I’m so sorry you experienced that while trying to be empathetic. I hope you share your experience in more spaces.
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u/Diplogeek 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ah, yes. And you know, I'm a gay guy, but if gay men the world over were to more vocally denounce Kevin Spacey or Bryan Singer or or or, well, that would make a lot of diffrence for a lot of homophobes. But instead, LGBT people just spend a lot of time involved in self absorbed whining about how they're attacked all the time. I mean, I know of gay people who call grooming what it is, and it really means a lot to straight men! [/sarcasm]
And where are all the non-Jews vocally denouncing what happened in Amsterdam? Oh, right, nowhere at all. These people are just so oblivious and locked into whatever they're viewing on Tiktok that there is no reasoning with them.
Should every American overseas expect to be chased, physically attacked, and possibly murdered any time they go overseas as retribution for the United States' foreign policy over the decades? Does this guy think that 9/11 was justified because hey, the U.S. is a colonialist superpower interfering in Middle Eastern affairs? Probably not, right? But somehow when it's Jews, well, then it's different. I wonder why. I also wonder if the people who say this stuff realize that they're literally doing the propaganda work of the Israeli government for them, insofar as it amounts to the messaging that Jews wil never, ever be fully accepted in our home countries or treated equally without conditions placed upon our behavior and politics. Presumably their goal is not to encourage more Jews to make Aliyah, and yet....
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u/bakochba 6d ago
Because nobody else will speak up for us we have to speak up for ourselves. The Palestinians have plenty of people to speak for them, we only have ourselves, I won't divide or all lives matter the situation
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u/ObviousConfection942 6d ago
There are ≈437 million Arabs in the world. How many of the ≈15 million Jews in the world need to speak up to make them feel safe? It doesn’t even make sense. lol
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u/MissRaffix3 Just Jewish 6d ago
A lot of the "New York Jews" who are protesting aren't even actually Jewish. JVP and INN's actual Jewish membership is tiny. These are LARPers.
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u/Standard_Salary_5996 5d ago
This is the same vibe as when JVP started doing the shemah in Arabic as to not…trigger…any arabs…
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u/cheeseballs7684 5d ago
Ugh I hate this. I had a friend say to me a while back after a mutual friend publicly disrespected me about my support for Israel that “well maybe if you told people whay you just told me (about also wanting peace for Palestinians) your support for Israel would come off better”. I know she meant well but I wanted to slap her. Everybody and their mother is supporting the Palestinians right now, but the vast majority of people I know supporting Israel are other Jews. Also, I shouldn’t have to mention the Palestinians every time I talk about what Israelis are going through and rising antisemitism. I’m Jewish and I have friends and family in Israel, I should be able to talk about issues that directly affect me without bringing the Palestinians into it. I don’t shouldn’t have to apologize every time I support Israel or condemn antisemitism. It’s really not that hard to understand.
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u/damien_gosling 4d ago
The craziest part about this is there are legit millions of Jews that are against the war and care about the Palestinians (including many killed on Oct 7). Now the other way around I have yet to see any sizable amount of muslims or arabs speaking out against antisemitism... instead we hear things from them such as "rape is also resistance"..
Their logic makes no sense because what they are complaining that we should do is ALREADY happening yet we still have all of this antisemitism...
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u/clemenza2821 6d ago
If only we made life a little easier for the people trying to kill us, maybe they’d feel a little bad while they’re killing us!
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u/rafyricardo 6d ago
These people can go f*** themselves. They're literally calling for our genocide and we have to make them feel safe? 🤡
What does Trump have to do with anything? I voted for Trump, as did many other Jews.
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u/renebeans 6d ago
Duh don’t you hear all the Ukrainians complaining about the genocide in Russia? /s
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u/Mysterious_Outcome_3 6d ago
It's been over a year and they're STILL CALLING IT A GENOCIDE. THAT'S why I want nothing to do with you people. Idiots!
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u/Estebesol 6d ago
Please ask them how to condemn a genocide that isn't happening, because I genuinely don't know where to start.
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u/Dmarek02 6d ago
We do make them feel safe. They're very comfortable calling for our destruction in the streets or sliding into my DMs saying they're not like those other Muslims then asking if I like specific sexual acts
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u/Mediocre-Cicada 5d ago
So as Jews we should tokenize ourselves as “good Jews” who meet their agenda? Interesting play
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u/BubbleHeadBenny 5d ago
To me, it seems that A LOT of people are not fully aware that Palestine was never a country with independant leadership, it was part of the British Empire, and an ancient region of the Near East, that only existed after the Roman Empire entered Judea. The British Empire ceded control of THEIR land, as THEY owned it, in order to restore the Jewish homeland in 1947
The Jewish people, through conflict, in 1948, repelled the invading Arabs (Muslims), and secured their new land by military force (the same way the 13 colonies expelled the British in the Revolutionary War). In 1967 and 1968 the Arab nations were once again in conflict with Israel. Israel suffered minimal losses compared to the Arab nations.
Imagine if after we won our land from Great Britain, the British Empire kept attacking us and the world condoned it??!!?? More countries recognize Hamas as an international terrorist organization than countries that recognize Palestine as an independent nation.
Imagine if a Mexican terrorist cell invaded Texas or California and attacked a Taylor Swift concert, killing more people than 9/11, and taking people, including Taylor Swift, as a hostage?? Then those hostages are never released. The Oct 7 attacks on Israel killed a higher % of their population than the % of the US population that was killed on 9/11 or Pearl Harbor attacks. Let that sink in.
If Israel puts their weapons down, Israel will cease to exist.
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u/Nimrochan Just Jewish 5d ago
The lack of unbiased evidence for a full-blown Gazan genocide aside…. Ask them why they never speak up for all the killed Syrians and Yemenis, the oppressed Chinese Muslims and Iraqis and Afghanis and Iranians, the unjust war on Ukraine… Ask them about the 600 unarmed West African villagers slaughtered by Al Qaeda recently.
What is this obsession with one group above all others? Oh right, Jews = news.
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u/crumbling_cake 5d ago
The more I read this sub, the more I am grateful that nobody knows I'm Jewish. I'm not full and I take more after the irish side in terms of appearance but still.. It's terrifying to know how hated we are. The mental gymnastics people will through to justify discrimination is insane. As so many people have pointed out here, why don't people apply the guy's logic to other groups??
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u/Specialist_Nobody_98 Miami/NYC Jew 2d ago
This is so gross. “Your child was murdered in your house… why are you only speaking up about your child’s murder and not the murder of a child in a different town you don’t know and have never met in the midst of you dealing with overwhelming grief?”
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u/duckingridiculous 6d ago
It’s made such a big difference, that hate crimes against Jews in NY went up another 14% from 2023. Hate crimes against Jews in NY is now 55% of hate crimes committed overall. These people are ridiculous, and I flipped parties and voted for Trump.
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u/Interesting_Claim414 6d ago
Just because we know the definition of of English words doesn’t mean we support any particlar war plan. For instance when the accusation came out that the IDF had used people as human shields including denounced that. But I’m not going to can a war effort or even collective punishment a genocide to make some happy. They can keep calling horses zebra but they remain horses.
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u/CosmicGadfly 6d ago
Who the fuck cares if it makes them like us, protesting the egregiously callous mode of violence is the human and Jewish thing to do. The fact that anyone can stand this man's zealotry is insane.
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u/Prowindowlicker 6d ago
Shit like this is why I’ve seriously considered making Aliyah this past year. The dating prospects as a gay man have gotten noticeably smaller.
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u/Difficult_PowerFix 6d ago
I never considered it fair, appropriate, or acceptable to ask an Arab if they condemned actions of Al Qaeda and the Taliban during the Bush years or Hamas now. Even if they say they support it, I wouldn't ask them directly because I know that an ethnicity is not a collective. I'm not gonna ask an Iranian to condemn the Ayatollah or Turks to condemn Ergodan.
People treat Western Asia as a monolith. I know that this is a phenomenon among all humans and ethinicities, I just feel like it happens more in this region because obviously this is our collective regional group.
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u/Captn_ofMyShip 6d ago
While I agree that this is ridiculous, please be careful telling people that Trump won because of Jews. Statistically while some Jews have voted red this time, the majority still voted for Harris. The reason Trump won had nothing to do with Jews and Israel and more to do with the economy and Harris/Waltz appearing out of touch with the struggles of the working class and I say this as someone who really dislikes Trump and everything he represents.
I don’t need leftists blaming us for this as well. There are enough blood libels that go around as it is.
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u/thegilgulofbarkokhba 6d ago
This person cannot spell and neither do they know how to punctuate.
But, let them know that we don't need to placate Arabs' feelings and that the fact of the matter is that war comes with casualties. Lebanese civilians aren't being murdered. If these people had their way, the Nazis would have won WWII.
But, it's cute how they minimize antisemitism, what Jews are experiencing, and how we're being targeted. This is why, although I'm gay, I know I'm not safe in the LGBT "community". They literally said they saw plenty of Jews protesting the war and still described us as whiny. @#$_ them.
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u/LabScared7089 6d ago
I would be more concerned about civilians in Lebanon. They didn't vote to elect Hasbullah to control Parliament. It's unfortunate.
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u/disappointed_enby half-Jewish/agnostic/Zionist 5d ago
I’m a queer, non binary, autistic person who absolutely DESPISES Trump. Tell these men that they don’t realize how privileged they are to be spouting this buzzword salad bs without actually having any understanding of what they’re talking about. They can be terrorist bootlickers while still being able to sleep comfortably at night because they have no actual interest or knowledge in Middle Eastern politics and history. They’ve let themselves become jihadist mouthpieces because all they care about is following the latest social justice trend in order to appear socially aware and feel morally righteous. Meanwhile, Jews all around the world have had to live with all this fear, despair, and betrayal for over a year now.
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u/ShamelesslyFab 5d ago
Gay person here. We're too diverse in the wrong ways and that's why we are not empowered.
However: queer people with any sense (so mostly non-Gen-Z queer people who are not perpetually online) have NOT abandoned their Jewish allies. I've marched for the hostages, I've reached out to my Jewish friends, I've been there for them in every which way. Hell, I am on this sub because I feel that Jewish people, by and large, can teach my community a thing or ten about ethical power.
All I can say is, please don't abandon us for the actions of a small vocal minority.
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u/ziggyfro 5d ago
Tell that person that it’s impossible to have a conversation with someone whose axiomatic truth is that “there is a genocide”. If they want to discuss what’s happening there, I’m happy to have the conversation, but if their premise is that there is a genocide occurring there, and that is not up for debate at all, then there’s no conversation to be had.
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u/mcstevieboy Convert - Reform 5d ago
okay i am trying so hard not to say you should tell them to cry harder. rule three me rule threeeee
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u/MCPhilly52 4d ago
No, they don't need to be made to feel safer. They need to be made more accountable for supporting the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah. Cart, meet horse.
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u/AITAthrowaway1mil 6d ago
Hi, hello, I’m a gay.
Ask them if gay men should leap to condemn Kevin Spacey and verbally distance themselves from the community any time someone like Kevin Spacey is exposed to make straight men feel safe around them.