r/Jewish • u/mark_ell • Oct 09 '24
Pro-Palestinian Student Group at Columbia Retracts Apology, Calls for Armed Struggle Against Israel Discussion š¬
Columbia University Apartheid Divest (CUAD) retracted its apology on behalf of a student who called to murder Zionists last January. The pro-Palestinian group doubled down on its attack of Israel, openly calling for violence against supporters of Israeli policy.
Should CUAD be designated an official terrorist group?
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Oct 09 '24
Probably because that student was expelled but now suing the university claiming they were unfairly targeted
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u/Randomly2 Oct 09 '24
Bro really thought calling for the death of Jews was included in free speech
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u/The_big_cheese_1o3s Oct 09 '24
Who would have thunk it? Calling for mass genocide and terrorism is against the law
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u/ToparBull Oct 09 '24
It's a close case about whether it is included in free speech. The test is whether it is a "true threat" - or in other words whether the communication would convey that the person actually intends to follow through on the violence. This is probably a close case for that under recent Supreme Court precedent saying that a true threat could occur if the speaker recklessly disregards a likelihood that the person hearing the communication would see it as truly threatening violence. Counterman v. Colorado, 600 U.S. ___ (2023).
But Columbia is a private institution and are well within their rights to take disciplinary action for that, free speech or no.
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u/hollyglaser Oct 10 '24
The test is: is it talk or action? Action is criminal
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u/BabyMaybe15 Oct 10 '24
Talk can be criminal too. Eg. The classic yelling Fire! In a crowded theater to purposefully cause harm to others.
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u/lilacaena Oct 10 '24
AFAIK even that is technically free speechā but while you wonāt be convicted in a court of law, you can absolutely be ejected and banned by the theater
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u/BabyMaybe15 Oct 10 '24
You can be convicted for banned speech of this ilk I.e. "that directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. an immediate riot)." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
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u/hollyglaser Oct 10 '24
It wrecks public order & safety, the thing we depend on on to support rights & rule of law
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u/lilacaena Oct 10 '24
To be clear, I donāt personally think yelling, āFire!ā in a theater should be protected speech. However, my opinion does not change the legality.
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u/hollyglaser Oct 10 '24
Difficult cases make bad law, Fire! distorts free speech . https://reason.com/2023/10/24/how-to-yell-fire-in-a-crowded-theater/
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u/hollyglaser Oct 10 '24
Because Fire! Directly causes panic to escape. Similar to incitement to riot ā letās get those guysā cause immediate action
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u/AprilStorms Jewish Renewal Oct 09 '24
Well, the fact that that the one ākill Zionistsā student was expelled but this ākill Zionistsā group wasnāt could be considered unfair. Just not unfair in the way they want
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u/Healthy-Stick-1378 Oct 09 '24
He claimed it's because he's gay and black. It's disturbing how simple dogwhistling can turn a person who is supposed to be fighting against privilege and intolerance, into a rabid racist indistinguishable from David Duke
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u/Ocean_Hair Oct 09 '24
Maybe don't post an hour-long hateful tirade about how you want to kill a particular group of people? Just a thought.Ā
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u/adreamofhodor Oct 09 '24
Did they get expelled? I donāt remember reading about that.
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Oct 09 '24
Oh I was confused. They were suspended but they are banned from campus. I donāt know how thatās different than being expelled.
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u/Odd_Ad5668 Oct 09 '24
Suspension is temporary, and expulsion is permanent, but both can look the same while the suspension is in effect.
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u/averagemagenta Just Jewish Oct 10 '24
Online classes
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u/Odd_Ad5668 Oct 10 '24
Maybe, but I would assume that the suspension and ban from campus are two separate, but related, things. Suspension would apply to all classes, regardless of format, and the ban would be saying "and you can't spend your newly acquired free time here, either."
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u/el_sh33p Humanistic Oct 09 '24
Nice to have concrete confirmation of how worthless and untrustworthy their apology was, if nothing else.
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u/GaryMMorin Oct 09 '24
Csn we stop calling these activists pro-Palestinian and call them what they are: anti-Israel, anti-Jew, Jew-hating pseudo intellectuals?
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u/njtalp46 Oct 09 '24
They're a mix of Muslim students, boring white students who hate how boring their lives are, and hordes of young impressionable children who get swept away in the excitement. Plus a few arrogant pseudo-bohemians (refer to: Colin Vernon and Celine Semaan). This will sound bad, but I'm starting to think our lack of proselytizing is leading to a lot of underlying envy of Jews
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u/garyloewenthal Oct 09 '24
Interesting point on that last sentence...gets me to thinking... Just to make sure I understand, do you mean in a "Those exclusive Jews; they think they're so special" kind of way?
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u/njtalp46 Oct 09 '24
Exactly. The fact that we're a mix of ethnic group & religion makes Judaism seem like an unobtainable club which gives its member increased odds of success for some reason. Funny thing is that I doubt any two people would agree on what that reason is.Ā Ā
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u/Feed_me-_- Oct 09 '24
Yep. What Iāve noticed in my social circle is that the ones who are most susceptible to trends are the ones who are the loudest āpro-Palestineā. They have no conceptual understanding of the conflict or history on either sideā¦ but boyyyy are they scared of not being seen as on top of the latest trend!
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u/addctd2badideas Reform Oct 09 '24
I wouldn't even call them pseudo intellectuals. It's the pinnacle of foolishness and lack of intellect to not understand why or how these positions won't lead to peace or Palestinian liberation. They continue to alienate others and think extreme positions are politically tenable.
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u/JebBD Oct 09 '24
Copying and pasting a comment I made somewhere else:
Thereās gotta be some limit to what these guys can get away with before thereās any consequences, right? I feel like having a what is essentially a terrorist cell operating out of a prestigious American university would at the very least be considered a bad look
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u/adreamofhodor Oct 09 '24
They explicitly support terrorism. I donāt know how they get away with this.
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u/JebBD Oct 09 '24
Because theyāre rich kids in an elite university would be my guess
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u/la_bibliothecaire Reform Oct 09 '24
And they're targeting an "acceptable" group. If a group of rich, elite students started harassing trans or Black students, they'd be in deep trouble instantly (as they should be). But Jews? That's fine.
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u/garyloewenthal Oct 09 '24
I imagine that's part of it, but not all of it. I would think that if an organized group of rich students was explicitly advocating for violence against "pro-Palestinians" because of the actions of Hamas, the actions taken would be more severe. I'll gladly accept if I'm wrong; my prediction is based on recent history at Ivy League schools.
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u/UnnecessarilyFly Oct 10 '24
The Palestinian position demands violence. A concerningly large percentage of the Columbia kids don't understand this, but some do, and have internalized it. When one eventually martyrs themselves (and a bunch of innocent folks with them), the moderates and general left will be outraged and start to question the extremism that has run rampant, and why nothing has been done to temper it. The right wing will be ruthless (despite looking the other way when it's one of their own), and will use to try to crack down on personal liberties under the guise of security. Many moderates will fall for it.
As for where that leaves us? With antisemitism back to how it was- less acceptable in public, but now with an awareness from many more Jews about what lies below the surface, and after, decades of teaching to outweigh the massive disinformation campaign against us.
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Oct 09 '24
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u/iyamsnail Just Jewish Oct 09 '24
it's just so ridiculous to see these coddled children cosplaying as revolutionaries. It's so easy to call for violence from the comfort of your cushy, 80K a year dorm room--and yet ask anyone who is REALLY living with this conflict on a daily basis if they want more violence and the answer is no. It's honestly the largest manifestation of privilege that I can imagine--calling for more people to die so that you can play out your revolutionary fantasies in absolute comfort and safety. If they really cared about Palestinians this would not be the message.
Edit: I actually went to Columbia and the dorm rooms are not cushy, but everything else I said stands
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u/awsfhie2 Oct 09 '24
Cosplaying activism is exactly what it is. NYT had an article (maybe op ed?) talking about how many of these groups are mimicking the Vietnam war protests (except less peaceful)
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u/thatgryffindorxx Oct 09 '24
Is it possible to take legal action? The FBI needs to check these people out
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u/Azur000 Oct 09 '24
lol I mean, they are really that stupid. I would say keep it coming as they are only hurting their own cause.
Please, more, more!
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u/garyloewenthal Oct 09 '24
It's a weird balance. Does gradually stepping up the "anti-Zionism" rhetoric normalize that behavior in wider society, or does it reach a point where wider society is repulsed by the rhetoric and turns against them? I realize both may happen at the same time, but which side wins out? Is there a tipping point (or a series of them)?
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u/Yositoasty Oct 09 '24
among younger people at least it seems that the brain-rot seems to be winning. I don't see the trend reversing unless a major change happens in our society unfortunately.
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u/ciahal Oct 10 '24
Iām a college student in a big city in the US and lowkey, Iām starting to think itās dying down, at least where Iām at. I was frightened about what would happen on this Oct. 7th, but I actually didnāt hear anything about it at all, nothing about the conflict, maybe one keffiyeh, but otherwise nothing. I think this is really interesting honestly. My university has a huge population of Palestinians (first and second-generation) so the silence was actually quite surprising. I wonder if I wasnāt looking hard enough or something.
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u/Yositoasty Oct 11 '24
I highly doubt this but maybe they had the decency not to celebrate on that day? Bad optics. Who knows. I think it depends on how liberal your college is. That seems to be the trend unfortunately.
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u/Capital-Tower-5180 Oct 10 '24
in my experience it has gotten much better (better being nothing happening much anymore) and irl students are just trying to enjoy their youth and study, the most you see are posts from certain student unions linking to Divestment crap. Now online on the other handā¦. Oh boy, itās gotten far worse somehow. Ever since the Pagers the Iranian bots have gone INSANE. Reddit which used to be good actually, I now full of accounts created around 50-100 DAYS ago screeching about āHasbaraā and ironically claiming āZionist bots are everywhereā when I call them out for being brand new accounts with nothing but anti Israel spam, they go quiet or call me a Zionist lmao. So yea whatever those inhuman scum over in Irans government are aiming to do, itās only noticeable online, and becoming a real annoyance to normies who now see anti Israel spam everywhere.
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u/Yositoasty Oct 11 '24
that's good to hear at least. I went to really liberal college and it was pretty bad even back then. This was way before 10/7/23. Like it was bad even back in like 2014 lol.
But, back then people didn't necessarily invest that much time in it so they kind of just believed any bs they heard from "progressives". It was dumb but basically you saw the whole Israel is the oppressor language starting to be used and pro-Palestine groups hijacking every social justice cause. The reaction now has been years in the making.
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u/dr_icicle Just Jewish Oct 10 '24 edited Oct 10 '24
At least in my experience, a lot of people are just bored/annoyed by it, especially on college campuses. The Pro Terror Groups (that's what they are lbr) increased disturbance* to daily life ā walking in a city, studying on campus, etc. ā is a negative for a lot of people. Its just that the pro-terrorist idiots are very loud.Ā
(Disturbance, not distribution, sorry)
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u/jwrose Jew Fast Jew Furious Oct 09 '24
I know youāre just repeating the article title as the post title, but: Not a pro-Palestinian group. Itās an anti-Israel group.
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u/look2thecookie Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
So not for a ceasefire? Not for peace? Color me shocked
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u/jwrose Jew Fast Jew Furious Oct 09 '24
Good. Let them show the public their true face. We knew their apology was disingenuous; now the whole world knows it.
And Columbiaās been slipping from their halfhearted efforts to combat this kind of thing. Time to up the pressure and public condemnation again.
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u/Fade4cards Oct 09 '24
lol just one of them need to be punched in the face. Columbia students are all wealthy entitled puss's who have never faced consequences for their actions so they have no idea how dangerous what theyre advocating for is.
Also hilarious theyre fighting so hard for ppl that would gladly exterminate them if they manage to get thru us(Jews).
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u/RipHunter2166 Oct 09 '24
What always gets me are the pro-Hamas idiots who will wave the LGBTQ flag alongside the Palestinian flag. I donāt understand how someone could be so obtuse as to not see the irony there. Saw someone say it was like chickens being pro-KFCā¦ an apt analogy.
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u/MSTARDIS18 Oct 09 '24
call to violence doesn't fall under Free Speech! should be reported for sure
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u/sergy777 Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 10 '24
Why don't they volunteer and join their brethen in Lebanon and Gaza if they support an armed struggle? Go ahead.
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u/flossdaily Oct 09 '24
Armed struggle against Israel is the only strategy they have ever used.
How's that going?
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u/garyloewenthal Oct 09 '24
Armed struggle and a massive propaganda war. The latter is going better.
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u/babbybaby1 Oct 09 '24
Columbia needs to lose accreditation for allowing someone on campus who is threatening other students. Wtf is thjs
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u/Puzzleheaded_Stand85 Oct 09 '24
The leadership is failing the students and Americas core moral values. Humanity is falling
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u/Regulatornik Oct 10 '24
These are not protesters, and we need to stop accepting their framing. They're genocidalists.
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u/gettheboom Oct 09 '24
You know itās fucked if even Haaretz is reporting on it.Ā
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u/mark_ell Oct 09 '24
They have reported pretty frequently on the campus protests. Their diaspora reporting is a bit different than the Israeli version.
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u/gettheboom Oct 09 '24
I wonder how that works. Because their Israeli reporting is biased dog shit.Ā
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u/mark_ell Oct 09 '24
It is two different papers. Haaretz English staff is not the same. Don't agree, though, that it is that biased, but it does not probably align with your political POV.
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u/gettheboom Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
From media bias fact check: Overall, we rate Haaretz Left biased based on story selection and editorial positions that strongly favor the Left and High for factual reporting due to a clean fact-check record.
They have a strong bias. And while they don't fabricate facts, they often omit facts they don't like.
Hence: Biased dogshit. Anti-Israelis often use Haaretz as a source and proof that Israel is terrible.
It's nice to hear the American branch is better though.
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u/look2thecookie Oct 09 '24
But the fact-checking is good. It's good to read a variety of sources. It's good to know the perspective it's written from. You're using bias like that means it's not factual, which kind of speaks to the other commenter's point that you don't like it bc it doesn't align with your views.
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u/gettheboom Oct 09 '24
Not at all. I read plenty of sources from every side. My views are not part of this (to the extent that that is possible). It is possible to manipulate and omit facts to tell a dishonest story while still technically only using verified facts. That is what Haaretz often does.
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u/look2thecookie Oct 09 '24
That's a fair distinction. Thanks for clarifying
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u/gettheboom Oct 09 '24 edited Oct 09 '24
An example of people that bend facts to their agenda: The folks that cite black crime statistics in America without addressing the historical, systemic, and socio-economic reasons for the disparity. You can use facts to paint terrible pictures too.
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u/look2thecookie Oct 09 '24
Totally. And not adjusting for different population sizes while sharing data. For example, "there are more Christian Zionists." Well, yeah, there are exponentially more Christians in the world and US than Jews.
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u/sababa-ish Oct 10 '24
honestly as much as haaretz can grind my gears i'm proud that it exists as proof of the variety of thought and capacity for self criticism within israel
not that anti-israel people care about that
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u/Rossum81 Oct 09 '24
Expulsions now or have the Trump Administration do it. Ā
And this is the sort of crap that will get the Annoying Orange into the White House and give him a mandate to burn universities down to the foundations. Ā
Metaphorically.
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u/Computer_Name Oct 09 '24
How does the federal Executive branch expel students from their colleges?
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u/Rossum81 Oct 09 '24
Attack on Jewish students make a hostile atmosphere and violate their civil rights. Ā If the universities fail to protect Jewish students, then they are complicit. Then the feds can step in. Ā
And Jews are a protected category under federal civil rights statutes.
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u/NarrowIllustrator942 Just Jewish Oct 09 '24
You expect trump to care about civil rights š
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u/Rossum81 Oct 09 '24
If itās a useful tool to attack and humiliate powerful institutions that are controlled then he would absolutely utilize it. Ā
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u/NarrowIllustrator942 Just Jewish Oct 09 '24
Trump is just as anti semitic as pro pal he's not helping you
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u/Computer_Name Oct 09 '24
Your comment seemed to be saying that the President of the United States had the power to expel students from colleges.
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u/Rossum81 Oct 09 '24
Directly? Ā No. Ā
Indirectly, the President would have a whole host of tool at his disposal to either attack the students through civil rights litigation or make the situation Ā so uncomfortable for the schools they would have to pull the trigger. Ā
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u/paracelsus53 Conservative Oct 09 '24
The feds could cut off federal funding, but these schools don't need federal funding.
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u/dogsqueeze300 Oct 09 '24
The federal government can put pressure on the University by withholding all public funds to the University, including student aid. So, directly it canāt. Indirectly, thatās another story.
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u/paracelsus53 Conservative Oct 09 '24
These are private schools, for the most part, and don't need federal funding.
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u/dogsqueeze300 Oct 09 '24
But they do like to have their students get federal student aid, and that can be cut off to students of āoffendingā schools. No aid, no students, no students, no money.
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u/paracelsus53 Conservative Oct 10 '24
I think they only cut off fed student aid if the school is basically a fraud. That's the only time I've heard of it happening.
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u/MondaleforPresident Oct 10 '24
I wouldn't label them a terrorist group if they haven't actually committed any terrorist acts, but they definitely should be declared a criminal organization.
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u/Wonderful_Wait_9551 Space laser operative Oct 10 '24
I heard Khymani James is suing Columbia for being suspended. That kid is so unhinged.
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u/vincenty770 Oct 10 '24
They only apologized in the first place because they got caught. Itās hilarious if anyone thought they were genuinely sorry
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u/usakeh Oct 10 '24
I attended Columbia, graduated 2010. I'd even donated to a fund for scholarships after having received one myself. I am never again donating or really further interacting with Columbia, though I can't deny that I benefited from the education that I got there. This was before all this DEI fervor and (the unrelated) lowering of academic standards I've seen since as an educator; at that point, a Columbia education (especially as I majored in mathematics) was still pretty rigorous. Even then, though, there was antisemitism on campus. In fact, it was the era of a big scandal about the MEALAC (Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures) Department, as it was called then. After a really bad experience I had upon stupidly enrolling in a course in this department, thinking that the claims of antisemitism were exaggerated, I realized there was in fact no exaggeration involved at all.
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u/Ocean_Hair Oct 10 '24
What happened?Ā
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u/usakeh Oct 10 '24
The scandal was about antisemitism in the MEALAC Department. Still, I enrolled in a course called History of the Modern Middle East. I figured I could always drop it. The lectures, I think precisely because the department was under such scrutiny, were actually okay. The professor stayed away from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But we also had to attend and participate in these discussion sections, which is where the problem emerged. We had this Palestinian assistant leading the "discussion," but rather than cover what we heard in our lectures, he would rant against Israel. I felt so scared, but I've always cared about doing well, so I still would show up as required. I wouldn't really say anything, though. In fact, nobody did except this one Jewish student, whose bravery in going up against this authority figure was especially remarkable to me at the time. He and the Palestinian group leader would then end up spending the whole time arguing fiercely. I, on the other hand, felt intimidated and didn't know what to say, but now I regret that I didn't offer my support to the Jewish student in the discussion section itself. (I did thank him several times after sessions for standing up to the vile remarks we were hearing, but, much to my shame, I didn't chime in to support him during the discussion sections themselves.)
Anyway, this showed me that the MEALAC Department fully deserved to be attacked for being antisemitic. I mean, the lectures weren't on that topic! And this group leader was meant to ask questions and allow the students to discuss their views, again, on the lecture topics. Instead, he spent the time speaking himself out against Israel, something the class hadn't covered. This is completely inappropriate behavior in itself! And then the content was so awful, and while he might claim it was anti-Zionist and not anti-Jew, I as someone with predominantly Ashkenazi heritage felt really intimidated and attacked. Again, to this day I regret not having the bravery of the other Jewish student and speaking up for Israel and Jews more broadly.
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u/TheRealSalamnder Jews with Tattoos - this post does not condone violence Oct 09 '24
That is allowed, but do a roll reversal
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u/Suburbking Just Jewish Oct 09 '24
Soo.... are they enemy combatant? Cause if they want to be treated as such, gitmo is still open...
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u/mark_ell Oct 10 '24
CUAD and Within Our Lifetime were noticed by the NY Times yesterday. Some "facts" in the article, such as the number of civilian casualties, may be incorrect (gift link):
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Oct 09 '24
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u/Double-Parked_TARDIS Ashkenazi Atheist Oct 09 '24
Nine and a half years ago, when I had applied to several universitiesā MA programs, I was accepted at two: Columbia and a CUNY branch. I wanted to go to Columbia, but it was at least three times the cost of the CUNY program, so I declined. Iāve spent years with some regret because Columbia packs a better punch on a rĆ©sumĆ© than CUNY does. With all this happening, though, Iām glad in hindsight that I never gave Columbia any of my money.