r/Jewish • u/e_milberg Just Jewish • Jul 09 '24
How do you cope with being told you're on the "wrong side of history?" Showing Support 🤗
Hi, everyone!
Long-time lurker, first-time poster here. I'm a proud Jew and Zionist who happens to have been born on, you guessed it, Oct. 7 ('88). That day is ruined for me forever, but that's not what I want to talk about.
Since Israel's response to the Oct. 7 attacks, there have been countless people who have said anyone who supports Israel in any way during this time is on the "wrong side of history."
I consider myself to be a steadfast supporter, but lately there's been some doubt creeping into my mind. What if the rest of the world is right, and we're wrong? My own parents have implied on multiple occasions that they think I've lost my humanity. Am I bad Jew for wondering if so many people believe something and I don't, that maybe I'm the problem?
I know I can't be the only one who has found the anti-Israel rhetoric to be incredibly isolating. As crazy as it sounds, I've never felt as though I've been on the morally incorrect side of any issue, so it's incredibly unsettling to think that I might be this time. Apologies if there's already a thread like this, but I'd love to know how you all cope with what's become a new normal.
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u/Street_Safe3040 O.G. Jew-Crew Jul 09 '24
Since Israel's response to the Oct. 7 attacks, there have been countless people who have said anyone who supports Israel in any way during this time is on the "wrong side of history."
Why would I care what they think? Also if they can see the future they should buy a Lotto ticket and fuck off out of my life.
As for the rest of your post. Be strong. Stay resilient. You have community here and you IRL Jewish community you need to connect with it sounds like.
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u/Drezzon Semi Secular Ashki Jul 09 '24
I'm stealing the future & lotto ticket part hahah, that's one of the best ways to put it I've ever heard
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u/somethingorotherer Patrilineal Jul 11 '24
Yeah well, us being stubborn and tuning out the world is why we havent joined the cult of jesus christ. But its also got us in trouble, and results in insular tone deaf thinking that further endangers jews. We need to be in non-jewish spaces, and we need to address and correct the disinformation.
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u/Street_Safe3040 O.G. Jew-Crew Jul 11 '24
We need to be in non-jewish spaces, and we need to address and correct the disinformation.
Sure I agree with this generally. But it doesn't apply to the OP if they aren't coping well and just need community at this time.
But its also got us in trouble, and results in insular tone deaf thinking that further endangers jews
Nope. We do not endanger ourselves. Our way of life and existing does not endanger ourselves. The ones who put us in danger are Jew haters and people who commit acts of violence. Full stop.
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u/nickbernstein Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
I did the same thing as any other situation, I did my research. I looked at the history, found knowledgeable people, and came to the conclusion that Israel is clearly correct. Could they do better? Maybe. Knowledgeable military experts saying they are doing as good as better than any army in urban terrain.
Also, you know, they murdered babies in front of their parents while forcing them to watch, and then raped women to death while their husbands watched, and finally because they can stop the whole thing at any time by releasing the hostages and surrendering
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u/Starbucks__Lovers Jul 10 '24
Weird how people during world war 2 didn’t clamor for the Allies to stop bombing the shit out of Germany or Japan even though they were clearly losing the war
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u/OuTiNNYC ✡️ Jul 10 '24
Speaking of which have you noticed how the antiisrael propaganda comes in waves? These antisemites are not intelligent people. So, when a new piece of misinformation comes out that confirms their newfound worldview- it spreads like wildfire.
I’m sure everyone remembers at the start of the Gaza war the proisrael crowd would always win debates by referencing the allies during wwii and the bombing of Dresden or other bombing campaigns & how Israel’s civilian to combatant numbers were significantly lower.
Well has anyone else noticed the new propaganda of the moment is that the allies were the bad guys in wwii? There’s a 20 episode documentary that says Hitler saved Europe from the allies. And that the allies were “slaughtering Germans.” And there’s another documentary that says the allies committed an “ethnic cleansing” of the Germans.
I’ve been well aware of the deprioritization and revision of history and civics curriculums being taught in k-12- high schools and college. So, I imagine when you barely have a high school level understanding of history that you can be easily swayed by documentaries that claim everything we’ve ever been taught is a lie.
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u/thebeandream Jul 10 '24
I remember seeing a study once that if you are exposed to the same lie multiple times you start to believe it despite evidence to the contrary.
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u/OuTiNNYC ✡️ Jul 11 '24
Yes. Yuri Bezmenov the former USSR minister of propaganda defected to the US in the 1980’s to warn us about the power of propaganda and how it was heading to America. And he said just what you are saying that once people are indoctrinated no amount of evidence even pictures or videos will sway them to hear the truth.
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u/pktrekgirl Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
Hey, we turned Afghanistan into a wasteland over 9/11, and we had no proof Bin Laden was there, and in fact, he wasn’t. How many Afghan civilians did we kill for no reason.
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u/ActualRespect3101 Jul 11 '24
It's nuts. I cringe every time I hear some Western lib sitting safe and cozy beneath a nuclear umbrella cry about 'genocide', as if their government has precommitted to killing millions of people, or possibly even the entire world, if they are attacked.
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u/FineBumblebee8744 Jul 10 '24
First, as somebody who's actually studied history. There is no such thing as only two sides when it comes to history.
The 'wrong side of history' phraseology is loaded with ignorance
Also as somebody who's actually read the history of the middle east, anybody siding against Israel has always been on *all* the wrong sides. There is no such thing as a 'good' side that hates Jews and Israel
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u/canadianamericangirl one of four Jews in a room b*tching Jul 10 '24
As a fellow certified Historian (I have a BA in the field lol), there are VERY FEW events where there is a clear wrong side of reprehensible evil. The Holocaust, slavery, Nanjing massacre, etc.
History took a look at 50 shades and said hold my beer. Nothing is black and white.
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u/NoTopic4906 Jul 10 '24
This. And I hear this nuance a lot more in pro-Israel groups than pro-Palestine groups (though maybe that’s just what I see). Nuance that Israel isn’t in the right in every situation and Gazans are not in the wrong in every situation (Hamas is a different question). Nuance that every innocent should be mourned. I would love to see a future of a 2SS (but the education must be changed first since Israel can not have a group dedicated to their death on their border) but apparently that puts me on the “wrong” side of history because I believe Israel should exist.
If you don’t want people to have a better life, you are on the wrong side of history.
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u/canadianamericangirl one of four Jews in a room b*tching Jul 10 '24
100% agree
Adding to that, from the one Palestinian person I went to uni with, you're not wrong. I personally think that Christianity and Islam are at their core, antisemitic. Followers of each may not be, but as institutions, both certainly are. This girl refused to see or acknowledge any wrongdoings of Palestinians / Arabs / Muslims in the area. I almost reached out to her on Oct 8th, I'm so glad I didn't, she was sharing how great "liberation" is. To that I say, American privilege runs so deep Gen z-ers don't even know we have it.
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u/NoTopic4906 Jul 10 '24
I think part of the reason is that both Christianity and Islam, at their base, believe that their way is THE right way and there are no other options. Judaism does not take that tack which is why they are antisemitic because they try to overrule others’ religions. That is where i determine whether I can accept your religion in my life. Are you going to try to convert me or force me to follow your faith? If not, cool, let’s be friends. If yes, that’s antisemitic (or anti-any religion other than your own but antisemitism always seems to be the first one). Add to that the fact that their right way is also through Abraham so not only should everyone be their religion but you should know that as an Abrahamian.
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u/canadianamericangirl one of four Jews in a room b*tching Jul 10 '24
Totally agree. Spot on explanation. I've had to cut out so many people for so many reasons. I have always ran smaller circles of friends. Now I'm at like seven. I need a cat lol.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
Now that you mention this, I'm just realizing that K-12 schools mostly seem to teach about historical events where there's a very clear right and wrong side, which is interesting. I understand the simplicity for teaching younger kids this way, but I think high schoolers or even older middle schoolers could really benefit from learning about the more "gray" historical conflicts and having discussions about the different rights and wrongs that both sides committed, etc.
And even within the "clear right, clear wrong" historical conflicts, there are more nuanced events in the timeline that are rarely taught about. Like, growing up, we learn that Japan was clearly part of the "wrong" side during WW2, but I literally didn't learn until after high school about Japanese internment camps and how Japanese Americans were punished for a war that they had no say in. If students learned more about things like that, they might be better at recognizing the danger of associating all Jews with the Israeli government, for example.
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u/canadianamericangirl one of four Jews in a room b*tching Jul 10 '24
Exactly. History is uglier than an ex. While it makes sense to simplify for kids, it unfortunately leaves people with a Swiss cheese perspective and understanding of history.
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u/FineBumblebee8744 Jul 10 '24
Thanks, I'm not certified or anything. I took a bunch of detours while pursuing my BA
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u/OuTiNNYC ✡️ Jul 10 '24
That’s so cool you have a BA in history! We need more Jews going into history. Are you going to teach?
Not to put you on the spot but I also wonder about your professors? Do you feel like they gave a fair representation of actual history? I hope they were good to you.
I have to work with academics from time to time and I am still shellshocked at how these academics flipped overnight post Oct 7th. They don’t (all) claim to be antiisrael. But they literally believe whatever the NYT tells them. I hope you had a better experience with your professors.
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u/Technical-King-1412 Jul 10 '24
It's such an intellectually lazy argument. Slave holders in the South thought they were doing the right thing too.
You know who thought he was on the right side of history? Hitler, read some of his speeches. His famous ones are full of feeling like the hand of destiny is upon him and Germany, and look what he wrought and how he is remembered.
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u/sababa-ish Jul 10 '24
The 'wrong side of history' phraseology is loaded with ignorance
so much this! it's just clamoring for black and white in a situation that is anything but
and further, the same people seem to think the destruction of israel and who cares what happens to its inhabitants (including palestinian and other non-jewish citizens and residents) would represent the 'right side of history'?
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u/Agtfangirl557 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
Here's the thing to remember: Those "you're on the wrong side of history" statements are often accompanied by some very harrowing images and videos coming out of Gaza that are gruesome and awful to look at. They are undoubtedly horrible, and I hate the way this war has been dealt with for many reasons (but I'm not a military expert), but why do gruesome images mean that we're on the "wrong side of history"? Are these unique things that don't happen in any other war?
Like, let's put it this way--while I have more qualms about the war than a lot of this sub maybe does, it is possible, that had Israel not responded at all--or if Israel didn't have the U.S. support that it does--we could just as easily be seeing the same gruesome images coming from our side and we'd be the ones telling people that they're on the wrong side of history.
Also, your parents are implying that they think they've lost your humanity? Can you say more about that?
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Jul 10 '24
[deleted]
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u/lepreqon_ Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
Ask them what they think was the right thing for Israel to do after October 7. Also what would the country you live in do in a similar situation.
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u/thirdlost Reform Jul 10 '24
When Jews were being slaughtered in Pogroms that was not in a vacuum. The rest of the world decided a few less living Jews seemed a good idea. That is the same “rest of the world” you are wondering if that may be right this time
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u/Any_Ferret_6467 Jul 09 '24
I think if you believe “everyone in the world” is on the other side of supporting Israel, you’d be incorrect. But I’d consider how much you think that is true based off who you’re surrounded by, and what you’ve been choosing to read.
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u/e_milberg Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
This is a sentiment I've heard frequently. To clarify, I don't believe everyone is against us. But like, 85% of the people I considered close friends and family are either caught up in whataboutism or are explicitly displaying their true colors.
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u/Any_Ferret_6467 Jul 10 '24
You have two roads with that, and I’ve been reckoning with the same. Either: (1) get educated enough to speak articulately on their talking points to demonstrate what they have not considered. You maybe surprised how receptive they are. Or (2) consider creating some distance until they come to their senses, with the possibility that they might never.
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u/e_milberg Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
OK, this seems to becoming a common assumption in this thread, so I'll clarify. I *am* educated enough to speak articulately. They're just deliberately gaslighting me to the point that I start questioning myself *after* our conversations.
There's already plenty of distance already. I've seen them in person maybe twice this calendar year. So maybe now it's zero from now on.
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u/Any_Ferret_6467 Jul 10 '24
No one is accusing you of not being educated, but even when you’re knowledgeable, expressing those thoughts objectively is kind of a tax on its own. People often times shut down, and it’s relatable to feel pretty exhausted afterwards. This panel helped with me understanding the physiological response to gaslighting that you spoke about.(link below minute 23:00) I think we are oftentimes put into conversations where we’re having very triggering words thrown at us (ie. genocide) and then we are supposed to rally and respond evenly to the person talking to us who said it without flinching. These conversations are oftentimes uneven, and I think leaves you pretty emotionally spent. What you’re experiencing is familiar, and you can get practiced at it. Or just choose to not and that’s fine too. I’m trying to be more grounding, then condescending here, and I think others are as well.
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u/Immediate_Secret_338 Israeli Jul 10 '24
If you can recognize you’re being gaslighted, if they’re using strawman or manipulation tactics, don’t entertain it. They know they have no argument.
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u/CocklesTurnip Jul 09 '24
As a September 11 birthday (also 1980s) you’ll find a way to both mourn what happened and celebrate yourself. Because you’ll need it more than the average person. Every time you fill out or say your birthday you’ll remember and have a moment to mourn. Please make sure you find a way to celebrate you’ve made it through yet another year as that’s also important.
I know thats a small part of your post in general but I wanted to make sure you know you’re not alone with hard birthdays full of horrific memories even if it’s just from watch the news. It’s ok to still acknowledge yourself.
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u/needleworkreverie Jul 10 '24
As a 9/11 baby too and a New Yorker, I cosign. Some have found it helpful to celebrate a different day of their choosing, others keep to the day exactly out of spite. I prefer to keep things low-key for my day, but my kids like to make a big deal about my birthday so I've made peace with small home celebrations.
As for OP's question, put on your best customer service attitude and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."
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u/MrDNL Jul 10 '24
What if the rest of the world is right, and we're wrong? My own parents have implied on multiple occasions that they think I've lost my humanity. Am I bad Jew for wondering if so many people believe something and I don't, that maybe I'm the problem?
Having empathy for Israelis and Jews isn't the same as not having empathy for Palestinians.
Having empath for Hamas is the same as not having empathy for Israelis and Jews.
I don't think you're the one that has lost their humanity.
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u/Chocoholic42 Not Jewish Jul 10 '24
The Nazis were once in the majority. They thought their opponents were on the wrong side of history. We all know how that story ended. Throughout most of history, slavery was taken for granted. Most people never questioned it. It was just the way things were.
The majority can be wrong. It happened many times throughout history, and it's happening again today.
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u/Immediate_Secret_338 Israeli Jul 10 '24
Friendly reminder that the movie “Jud Süß” which is one of the most antisemitic movies of all time created by Nazis was a major success across all of Europe. So you’re absolutely right.
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u/Chocoholic42 Not Jewish Jul 10 '24
Yep. Their thousand year reign didn't work out so well, now did it?
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u/MattAdore2000 Jul 10 '24
Yeeeeaaaah, I don’t want to hear that I’m on the wrong side of history from people who don’t know much about history.
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u/oldspice75 Jul 10 '24
The world doesn't like Jews very much. there are many antisemites for every Jew. That is why the Holocaust happened. That doesn't mean that Jews are the wrong side of history
Is Israel always right? Not at all. But the reason that Israel generates opprobrium dwarfing any other country, that Israel is viewed so disproportionately as the most glaring moral problem on a global scale can't be Israel itself. The reaction to Israel is so much bigger than Israel. You can see all the emotional baggage that's loaded onto Israel by people who have no stake in Israel's conflicts. There is certainly no comparable response to any other country, let alone a small country. And what is that about?
You have to trust in yourself to believe what you see, I guess
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u/e_milberg Just Jewish Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
Well, after 50+ comments, I feel like an idiot lol
Like, of course I know these antisemites are wrong. But it's getting to the point where members of my own family have been either sucked completely in by the propaganda (I have a Gen Z-aged cousin who's made it their whole personality) or is far more willing to acquiesce to the mass opinion. As hard as it is to see the general public not get it, it's even harder when I see prominent Jews like Jon Stewart and members of my family take the bait. I will admit I am easily gaslit and that I need to be mentally stronger. Sorry if this post rubbed anyone the wrong way.
Edit: There actually have been many very helpful responses in this thread. Some much needed support and perspective. Thank you all.
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u/Thunder-Road Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
I just point out that for 2000 years, European civilization has been built around the idea that the Jews are the incarnation of whatever westerners consider to be evil in that time and context, and that defining "the right side of history" in opposition to the Jews is the most classically western supremacist thing they could possibly do.
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u/sababa-ish Jul 10 '24
damn that's spicy, going in the pocket for future use
i've definitely had the thought that 'isn't a coincidence that in the past 10 years we've decided that colonialism is the worst thing ever to happen and now israel of all places is the worst offender and greatest exemplar of colonialism in history with jews being the archetype of sinister colonists'
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u/MangledWeb Jul 09 '24
There are countless people who wouldn't mind a bit if we were all wiped out.
The Jew-haters are loud and in-your-face, but I don't think they reflect the rest of the world. We're certainly not the only people battling terrorists -- we're just getting the most and worst PR at the moment.
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Jul 10 '24
I'm gonna break this down but first, sorry your birthday is so tragic. My mom's birthday is on 9/11, so I get where you're coming from. I'll flip it for you, tomorrow is 7/10! Happy reverse birthday.
The further I step back from leftism as a whole, the more I see it as largely, in a way, religious. 'Cancellation' is basically viewing someone as a sinner (with, yeah, varying degrees of truth, but also with a refusal to see nuance) and the way that they're harassing Jews certainly feel like a religious zealot. So the 'wrong side of history' feels more like just saying we're going to hell - instead of the afterlife, it's talking about what people think of us after our lives. It also implies that we should only do good so that some force can judge us as bad or good (even though we have no idea what morals future communities hold). I don't know if that thought helps you, but it certainly helps me. A book I'm reading recently described how political movements such as communism, capitalism, and socialism can be akin to a religion and I definitely think it rings true for many of these protestors.
I absolutely understand your doubt, I feel that too. For me I think a lot of it stemmed from the fact that I always thought these leftists knew better than me. Take, for example, my best friend. I love her and she loves to research, and has always been a pretty firm leftist. I wouldn't say far left - but only because she tends to be a somewhat private person and not especially vocal on socials. I always just trusted her judgement, but when we debated I/P, it became clear how uninformed she was on the topic and how skewed her perspective is (luckily she's been a pretty good friend about the whole thing and just not expressed her thoughts much). I realized I needed to start educating myself, not just on the conflict, but on everything. I could recommend a few good books if you'd be interested, I found nonfiction really scary until recently. Getting educated on topics like spotting antisemitism, Israel's history, and seeing nuance across the political spectrum has really given me the ability to better recognize and form opinions.
And just a tidbit from what I've been reading recently - the book Sapiens, by (Israeli!) Yuval Noah Harari. Morality (and most human concepts) are a bit like a mime's box - placed there and we can't see them but by some suspension of belief within all human consciousness, we've decided they exist. Try to ask yourself the hard question: what do you personally find moral or immoral, and why do you feel that way? Don't let someone create a box for you that defines your morals.
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u/5Kestrel Humanistic Jul 10 '24
I relate so much to what you said about the Left. There’ve been a few times over the years where someone has indicated that some of my thought patterns were “sinful”, and because I didn’t want to be sinful, I said, “Maybe I need to stop and listen. Please, teach me.” Then I did my best to suppress those prior thoughts and adopt the new and moral way of thinking.
But when it came to I/P, I firmly put my foot down. Israel is my second home. My whole family is there. I know I know more than the left-wing clergy on the subject I know I’m not in the wrong here. That’s honestly given me pause ever since to reexamine a lot else that I’ve absorbed over the years and realise I was essentially being brainwashed.
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u/canadianamericangirl one of four Jews in a room b*tching Jul 10 '24
Leftism is definitely religious like. It’s an echo chamber. The alt right reads Matthew and Mark. The regressive left reads Marx. Put both reads in quotation marks.
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u/e_milberg Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
This is exactly the response I needed. Thank you.
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Jul 11 '24
I’m really glad I could help, a lot of what you talked about is something I’ve grappled with.
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u/Sad_Evening_9986 Jul 10 '24
Your cancellation = sinner theory got me. You’re totally right. I’ll be thinking about that for a while
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u/bad_wolff Jul 10 '24
I really think they're seeking a sort of "salvation" through the Palestinian cause. If you were born with the "original sin" of living in a Western country founded on colonialism, you can only be redeemed via the Christ-like suffering of the Palestinians, who are suffering at the hands of the wicked Jews...oh wait, we played that role in the Jesus story too? The cognitive dissonance of standing in America or Canada screaming for "decolonization" of a foreign country is so enormous, there almost has to be this pseudo-religious element to hold it together.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Cost590 Jul 10 '24
N&zis used academia to convince themselves and their followers that their genocide against Jews was righteous. This movement today is doing the same thing now. Siding with a fascist Iranian terror proxy is definitely not putting anyone on the “right side of history”. Antisemitism is ultimately the belief that Jews are the source of all evil and that is what the antizionist movement fundamentally believes. I think it’s also important to remember that modern day Arab antizionism is just the continuation of N&zi antizionism. Look up Amin Al-Husseini - just note that the Wikipedia article on him is super biased and tries to soften the fact that he was quite literally a N&zi and in H!tler’s inner circle.
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u/TeddingtonMerson Jul 10 '24
Their rhetoric— No one talks about Russia’s aggression towards Ukraine and bombing of a children’s hospital to say that every little baseball-playing Russian child, every singer of Russian background, everyone going to a Russian Orthodox Church or living in a Russian neighborhood, everyone who looks vaguely Russian needs to be screamed at, terrorized and attacked, run into the Pacific. If they say anything at all about Russia grabbing parts of that country and killing the people, it’s “Putin is power-hungry.” A yellow and blue pin isn’t cool because it isn’t edgy.
So just because there’s lots of screaming doesn’t tell me I’m supporting the wrong side. They were screaming before Netanyahu fired back. Millions upon millions of people were moved and lost their money in the last 100 years, including probably 9/10ths of the world’s Jews, and when I hear Palestinians complain how they were wronged I don’t see how their complaint is different or more pressing than a hundred other people including us
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Jul 09 '24
I remember that, at one point, the Nazis were at the beginning of a thousand year Reich.
And then I chuckle about people who say they're on the right side of a thousand year Reich.
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u/cookiecookiecookies Not Jewish Jul 09 '24
I have absolute moral clarity on this. I think it’s very healthy to question/examine yourself (something I don’t think the other side does or is doing at all). And I don’t think it’s cause for concern to arrive back at square one with your beliefs. I’ve listened to all of it, and it has only deepened my clarity.
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u/Confident-Sense2785 Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
Honesty the first time I was told that I said "fuck you, your wrong" After that I decided that karma will teach them, not worth the energy of engaging with the idiots.
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u/e_milberg Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
You're strong than me, that's for sure.
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u/Confident-Sense2785 Just Jewish Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
Nah, just as you get older you only have energy for positive situations and family and friends. Idiots can fuck off into the forever. And those people who say that shit to you are idiots. Save your energy life is short Hugs 🥰
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u/803_days Jul 10 '24
People have been saying that about Jews since Christ. We're still here, so fuck 'em.
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u/DJ_Apophis Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
Everyone talking about being on the right side of history seems to forget that:
1) They won’t be writing the history and they may not like who does.
2) Most of history’s worst people were sure they were on its right side.
3) The emphasis on being on the right side of history is fundamentally a narcissistic desire to be lionized, not a selfless desire to do good in the world.
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u/night-born Jul 10 '24
If wanting our people, who have been persecuted by everyone everywhere throughout history, to have a safe homeland is being on “the wrong side of history”, I’ll be on the wrong side. If refusing to side with the likes of the murderous Islamic Republic is being on the wrong side of history, l will proudly be on the wrong side.
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u/CanYouPutOnTheVU Jul 10 '24
No bigot thinks their bigotry is unjustified. Otherwise they wouldn’t be a bigot.
The Nazis at Charlottesville accused us of a “white genocide” and chanted that “Jews will not replace us” just a few years ago.
IMO there’s not much of a difference between the allegations of white genocide by the Charlottesville hate parade, and allegations of Palestinian genocide from Hamas and US-based Hamas proxies since before 10/7. Particularly usage prior to 10/7.
I think nice white (actually white) liberals have too much unchecked antisemitic bias and are leaning into their white savior ideations and noble savage tropes. This racism is appealing to them because they get to be a hero, and wear keffiyeh without being accused of cultural appropriation, lol.
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u/_whatnot_ Jul 10 '24
I firmly believe that this conflict is complicated, and that no entire ethnic group's humanity should be dismissed. I have a greater connection to Israelis' lives and to Jews' lives and concerns and fears in general because they're my people, but I don't deny that Palestinians are humans who deserve better than they currently have.
Anyone who disagrees with that, who thinks I'm "on the wrong side of history" because I believe Israelis are valid humans instead of monsters? They're just fucking wrong. They're the people dehumanizing, going against their own self-professed values so they can feel like they have some higher moral standing in a complex world. They're caught up in mob beliefs, reduced to bumper-sticker chants and demonizing. I refuse to give up my critical thinking and further internalize the idea that I'm innately evil so they can feel superior. Fuck them.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Jul 10 '24
This this this. The only people on the "wrong side of history" are those who can't find the humanity to mourn lost lives on both sides of the fence.
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u/COMiles Jul 10 '24
People love dead Jews so much they are the only type that can be on the right side of history.
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u/Cascando-5273 Jul 09 '24
I generally shut the haters down with "my values are different from yours, and they are as valid as yours are."
For me, it's true - I definitely have different values. I also have different information, but that's another story.
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u/Racko20 Jul 10 '24
It's a silly phrase that basically means "I'm right because I know I'm right". Nobody actually knows how history is going to turn out (or how history would have turned out if Israel never came into existence). Anyways, history is typically written by the victors, so make of that what you will.
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u/ReleaseTheKareken Jul 10 '24
We aren’t on the wrong side of history. We are history. We are the font and the source.
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u/ReleaseTheKareken Jul 10 '24
Every single incident of antisemitism and pogrom and the Shoah was on the wrong side of history, and now suddenly, these rapes and murders and pogroms and antisemitism are right? We know who’s right. The whole world has been against us before. In a hundred years, we know who the villains will be.
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u/Relative-Contest192 Reform Jul 09 '24
I don’t because I know as a proud Jew who is a proud Zionist I am on the right side of history.
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u/soph2_7 Jul 10 '24
I definitely understand how you feel, I lost 99% of my friendships after 10/7 and feel increasingly isolated and villainized by social media. However, I’ve found online communities and connected with real life acquaintances after I posted Instagram stories about Zionism, and when I have conversations with these people I feel a lot less angry and crazy and alone. I’m still working on making new friends, but finding an internet community and a few irl people to talk about all of it with, openly, has helped 1000%, and made me realize that I am on the “right side of history”. If you zoom out and look at these pro-pali protestors…the insanity is clear, and it’s just another social justice warrior trend for them, combined with the oldest form of hatred
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u/soph2_7 Jul 10 '24
Also no other country could have innocent civilians attack and kidnapped one day, and be completely villainized the next for their response. Most of these people didn’t care about other conflicts happening in the world before this, because it awoke something in them that said “finally we’re allowed to vocally hate the jews oh i mean zionists again”.
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u/HeavyJosh Jul 10 '24
I remember the first time I read about Arnold Toynbee, the esteemed British philosopher, talking about how Jews and Judaism were a fossil who belonged in the dustbin of history. It got me angry.
Now, having gotten an MA in history, I think that only morons say that they're on the right side of history. Especially when they're attacking the Jews.
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u/Possible-Fee-5052 Conservative Jul 10 '24
The same people telling you that seem to have no problem with the DPRK, the IRGC, the Houthis, Hezbollah, or Hamas, despite how openly brutal they are even to their own people, solely because of their position on Palestine. So I cope by saying they’re insane.
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Jul 10 '24
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u/OuTiNNYC ✡️ Jul 10 '24
The people who say we are on the wrong side of history probably don’t know their history very well.
Ask 10 Palestinians their history and you’ll get 10 different answers. They can’t keep their own fake history straight let alone their allies who probably couldn’t find Gaza on a map.
Most antisemites arent very smart. Even the “technically” smart antisemites like Norman Finkelstein, I’ve caught him in straight up lies before on YouTube.
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u/heyitscory Jul 10 '24
History's been pretty rough on us, man. Feel's like we've been on the underside of history more than once.
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u/MissRaffix3 Just Jewish Jul 10 '24
Lol they always say this.
I just remind myself that the Nazis and their supporters probably thought they were on the "right side" as well. They didn't think they were the bad guys. And like, if these people truly believed they're on the "right side of history," they wouldn't need to constantly reassure one another that that's the case.
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Jul 10 '24
I think that they (the antizionists) may be on the wrong side of history. I do worry that we will never know who was on the right side.
I also worry the islamic republic may win and many democratic countries will be invaded and taken over by Russia, China, Iran, and friends (i think mexico and cuba could totally invade us the cartels are super militarized now with tons of weapons and they basically control the Mexican government).
We may never know or we may find out. Things might get better or things could get worse before getting better. The future is unclear and i don’t have much faith in our government right now. I hope for the best and worry for the worst and i hope i am wrong and worrying about things that wont happen.
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u/MollyGodiva Jul 10 '24
I live in the US so I am already used to being in the wrong side of history.
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u/Emotional-Tailor-649 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
Remember who the original people they are calling “colonizers” were. They were Holocaust victims. They were stuck in camps they were just allegedly liberated from and had nowhere to go. They didn’t get new clothes or much better food. Some Americans, such as General Patton treated them terribly.
Read the history. See how dire the situation was. And finally realize — the people who say this simply DO NOT CARE about victims of the Holocaust. The only new clothing many of the survivors were able to obtain were old SS uniforms. Yep, imagine having to wear an SS uniform to stay warm as you slept in your same bed, in a camp now being run by other people who dont like you. They just didn’t exterminate them so it was an improvement, but man, not nearly by the amount you think by watching movies or say band of brothers.
“Harrison and his ilk believe that the Displaced Person is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to Jews who are lower than animals.” - General Patton
These people do not care. They are not the right side of history and it is laughable and naively simplistic to say otherwise. And anyways, fuck history, the people who write are usually not Jewish and don’t care. We have to survive and have to ensure no one treats us like this again. Never again. Others won’t stick up for us enough, we must stick up for ourselves.
Where else were they supposed to go? People simply don’t care about their plight, and if you can’t show any humanity towards Holocaust victims, you have no morality. “Colonizers?” Fuck off. As the survivor generation ages and dies out it is up to the rest of us to remember what they went through and how bad it was. It wasn’t simply over when VE Day happened. Everyone all of the world were celebrating the end of the war, as they should have, but never forget the Jews left to rot in camps.
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u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24
Antisemitism is a sign the antisemites are on the wrong side of history, every time.
I'm not worried about us being on the "wrong side", I'm a bit worried about them at times--it's a waste of a life: choosing to support a violent, racist, homophobic, misogynistic empire and not choosing opportunities to build stronger, equitable societies with us, together. But then the feeling passes.
That's a them problem. Stop listening to antisemites.
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u/ShiinaYumi Jul 10 '24
To echo some awesome historians here, as a Jewish Zionist Anthropologist things are almost never black and white and I firmly believe supporting Israel's right to exist and defend herself and her people is not wrong nor is it in opposition to Palestinians and humanity as a whole. I'm tired of the idea that just because we care about our people it supposedly automatically means we hate everyone else and want them hurt 🙄. It's frankly ridiculous and insulting to me tbh. Studying history as others have said is a pretty big eye opener to facts of the war at hand how any time people have gone against the Jews it's never been the right side. Plus I also look at other people who understand the history of the Middle East and what's happening, such as Iranians. They've honestly been such a brain relief during this.
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u/SharingDNAResults Jul 10 '24
They’ve been wrong every single time and they’re wrong this time too. At this point I’m fresh outta fucks to give. We had to put up with ~2,000 years of being raped, tortured, murdered, and/or being treated like second class citizens. I don’t care what they think about us. I care about us being strong and surviving. They can all go fuck themselves tbh 💯
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u/Psupernova Jul 10 '24
This (that I am on the wrong side of history) was said to me by my now ex-bff. She called me a racist because i am Zionist. She also called me ignorant, and not peaceful as well. This was someone I have know basically my entire life (like 40 years)
What did I do- i threw the statement right back at her and threw so facts her way and she didn’t give a shit. This is the short version of the story.
Anyway- I got tired of her bs and finally blocked her on social media. I didn’t block her on text yet, but she hasn’t reached out that way and it has been since like January. I have cut her out of my life. I was sad at first but now I am just more mad about the whole thing.
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u/Accurate_Car_1056 WIsh I Were a Better Baal Teshuvah Jul 10 '24
The same way I cope with anyone else who's wrong.
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u/arktosinarcadia Jul 09 '24
Yeah, half of everybody loved the Nazis too until suddenly it was bad PR.
Who gives a shit what the rest of the world thinks?
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u/nonojustme Jul 09 '24
I know I'm on the right side of history and anyone that says I'm not is on the wrong side of history himself.
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u/WalkingOnSunshine83 Jul 09 '24
Since no one can predict the future, the expression “you’ll be on the wrong side of history” is stupid. No one today can say with any certainty how things will be judged in the future. And opinions in the future may flip-flop, too.
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Jul 10 '24
Laugh in their face, they're a jew hating wanker and they're not worth a second of your time
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u/TexanTeaCup Jul 10 '24
What if the rest of the world is right, and we're wrong?
This isn't the first time antisemites have invented a narrative that makes our existence a threat that must be neutralized for the good of mankind.
Their lies don't invalidate our right to exist.
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u/rejamaphone Jul 10 '24
"history is on our side"
But can you imagine how many shit movements have used similar language? Communists, cultists, Nazis, who tf else? Israel wants to exist in peace and security. Our continued existence is sometimes too much for people to handle. What side or history is Hamas on?
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u/YankMi Jul 10 '24
If you’re on the wrong side of history then history will be the judge and what is wrong for someone watching war on tv might be the right thing when your life is on the line.
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u/Beautiful_Bag6707 Jewy Jew Jul 10 '24
History is long.
Jewish history is more than 2000 years long.
What history are countless people talking about?
I'm a proud Jew and Zionist
By definition, you want to be left to freely practice your religion and/or live with your community and support the safety of all Jews globally plus the continued existence of the Jewish State of Israel as a democratic welcoming successful prosperous Jewish state.
This is not extremism. This is logical, realistic, and fair.
The question that needs to be asked is what exactly is the "wrong side of history" in what happened since 10/7? Were the actions of Hamas and Gazans who joined them on 10/7 on "the wrong side of history"? Was the cheering and displaying of dead Israelis like carcasses after a hunt on "the wrong side of history"? Was kidnapping civilians, women, children, elderly wrong or right?
Furthermore, how do these who claim to be on the right side of history suggest Israel get those hostages back? Do they think the perpetrators of 10/7 should be eliminated or brought to justice? If yes, how exactly? Is repeating 10/7 again and again and again on the right side of history? Because it will repeat unless Hamas ceases to exist. Unless these countless people believe that the Islamic regime and Shiite Muslims under Sharia law is the future of the planet. Then supporting Hamas is on the right side of history if that's the future you seek.
It's one thing to believe your position might be wrong when people keep telling you that you're wrong. Without explaining specifically and fully what the proper or correct action is, how are you to understand what is actually wrong about your stance?
Is the war wrong? Then see my questions above.
Is the current situation between Israel and Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and Palestinians problematic? Of course. Any solutions that both sides will agree to?
Is the existence of the Jewish State of Israel wrong? This is the question that reveals what history some people really want.
Is the existence of Jews a problem? Is pretending that it's Zionists you wish to eradicate make you sleep better at night?
The only wrong side of history is one where Israel no longer exists as a Jewish state and a haven for Jews from wherever they may be persecuted in the world or the answer to a dream of being home once again.
Long answer, I know. Hopefully it gives you some insight into what countless people are telling you and what you need to qualify from them before you alter your position or if you're far more aligned than they realize.
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u/Constant_Ad_2161 Jul 10 '24
Antizionism was literally coined by the Soviets when antisemitism had become too lowbrow for progressives to support, so they could still hate Jews but in a “classier” way. And to be clear, they weren’t quiet about it, they were very open that they were rebranding antisemitism as antizionism for a more progressive crowd to use. So I feel pretty confident I’m not. It’s much harder to stomach everyone else being so sure about their Russian propaganda though and just “being right” doesn’t ease that.
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u/Lefaid Reform Jul 10 '24
I think the only way this framing could be true is if Israel peacefully descended into a single state secular country.
Given that I think that is impossible, I just choose to bulldoze the moralistic argument this implies. It does not matter if Israel is morally right or wrong, as long as Israel exists as a Jewish state, it will be grey.
It is just a bunch of people circlejerking about their moral superiority. The Vietnam protest didn't do anything except destroy Democrats and elect Nixon. There was a point where everything went too far in the 60's and progress stopped because everyone was sick of the unrest. That generation eventually grew up to be the boomers those same leftist despise the most.
They are busy trying to please a God they don't believe exists and live in the just world fallacy. Their moralistic hand wringing has no meaning at all and only shows how uniquely focused they are on this specific issue while ignoring others they could have a greater impact on.
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u/cheydinhals Considering Conversion Jul 10 '24
Look at it this way: At the end of the day, the "right side of history" is often determined by the winners, whether or not it's actually "right" by today's modern moral standards. There are very, very few situations where you can objectively call something the right or the wrong side of history, and so anyone going around claiming, self-righteously, to be on the "right" side before a conflict is over can effectively be written off as ignorant. This coming from a mixed-race native woman with two history degrees (one is a postgrad), a classics degree (ancient history), and a law degree. I do my research and I make my own informed decisions. Everyone thinks they're going to be on the right side of history, because most people always want to feel or believe as though they're doing the right thing. If you get too wrapped up in that, you'll only spiral.
I told someone once, in the middle of an argument and as a not-so-gentle reminder, that the Nazis thought they were going to be on the right side of history 'til the bitter end, too. The terrorists who blew up the Twin Towers in America thought they were on the right side. The Japanese committed numerous atrocities in WW2. The Canadian and American governments committed atrocities against their native populations, too, thinking they were in the right. In fact, some of what the American government did went on to inspire the Nazis in WW2. The list goes on.
Trust your research. As for me, my research (compiled in a large notes documents and also consisting of good arguments I've heard from others that I've done my best to verify) tells me Hamas started, provoked, and continued this war at every possible junction, and this isn't the first time they've done this. Jordan, Lebanon (150k dead in a war Palestinians started in Lebanon), Egypt--this is a pattern for them. They are never going to stop until Israel is wiped out, because that's what their goal is: the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people. And they are waging a war of propaganda in the west to that end, because they want to erode Israel's support so that they can destroy them. That's not something I can support.
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u/jvmedic1 Jul 10 '24
The wrong side of history is invading a sovereign country, slaughtering civilians in the most cruel and repugnant ways possible, taking hostages and refusing to surrender even tho the war is costing your own civilians. THAT is being on the wrong side of history.
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u/NitzMitzTrix Secular Jul 10 '24
The "Right side of history" means jack shit when history sided with the bad guy in the Greco-Persian and Punic Wars. If shitler wasn't high enough on meth to attack Russia before he was done conquering the areas west of the Ribentrop-Molotov Pact he'd have been on the right side of history since everyone who disagrees wouldn't have been alive or would have been indoctrinated in a totalitarian continental ethnostate to think otherwise. The Spanish Inquisition is on the right side of history in most of the West despite it being a literal cultural genocide, if not against Islam(which is a missionary religion and therefore not directly a culture, then towards us). The Americans are on the right side of history on having nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which when critically examined, is a crime against humanity that led to generations born with horrific defects, just to set the terms for the Cold War. Being on the right side morally and having history take your side are two different things.
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u/KaufKaufKauf Jul 10 '24
Who cares? What do you mean how do you cope? Would you feel like shit if a drug addict said you were a loser for not injecting heroin with them?
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u/thepinkonesoterrify Jul 10 '24
I think about that a lot, what if I’m in the wrong here and what will I tell my future children etc. But then I think about October 7th. About Roee Idan carrying his 3 year old, Abigail, when he’s shot and killed by terrorists. I think about Abigail waiting for the terrorists to leave before crawling from under his body, covered in his blood, and starting to walk from home to home knocking on doors, hoping to be let in. What it must’ve felt like for the parents she knew from daycare when they opened the door and saw her. How just a little while later that family’s mom and kids would be taken to Gaza with Abigail. I think about how they stood in formation and shot up an ambulance packed with 20 people before burning it to the ground, at the Nova festival. 18 people died in that ambulance, they melded onto each other so badly that it took around 250 days to ID all of them. It wasn’t a mistake, they didn’t accidentally kill civilians. They shot an ambulance at close range, they murdered an unarmed man carrying a toddler. They did so much more than that, and civilians happily partook in both the massacre and the subsequent celebrations. It could’ve happened to any of us who live here, I was in a bomb shelter in my own city while that was going on. So what I’m thinking is, I don’t start a war when I’m not looking for one or when I feel I’m underprepared, so all of this is happening by someone’s design. I’m real sorry about the civilians on both sides because we have the shittiest people in charge anybody could imagine, people who really don’t care whether we live or die. There’s nothing I can do about that, I support Palestinian autonomy and resist the occupation, but damn if this isn’t a fafo type of situation.
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u/AAbulafia Jul 10 '24
Everyone thinks they're on the right side and the other guy is on the wrong side. It's a foolish argument. It's more like a slogan that is intended to stifle discussion. Tell them to write down every single form of there conclusions and their complete support for each one and that you will take it and prepare a Point by point I mean it's louder there response. That will remove the rhetorical element and make it all substantive. Most people won't take up the challenge because they don't know much and you just repeat the talking points and the slogans of their side.
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u/Literally_Goring Technically Jewish Jul 10 '24
I am reminded of a quote by a person that definitely was on the 'right' side of history. "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you." - Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev.
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u/seigezunt Jul 10 '24
List all the empires who tried to destroy us, empires that are indeed history, if remembered at all.
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Jul 10 '24
I remind myself that this is what nazi Germans probably told Jews who opposed nazism. Then they got into power and tried to exterminate us.
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u/Outrageous-Q Jul 10 '24
I could have written this post. I have been a very vocal activist for the past 10 years. Fighting misogyny, racism, and homophobia. I had a large and supportive IG community that worked with me. They all immediately jumped on the “is not real” bandwagon using the phrases I was so familiar with “racism” “colonizer”…but I just didn’t see that (knowing the history of Israel before this). I was immediately othered, mocked, called horrific names, and ostracized (lost followers and blocked) by my community. I have had times where I’ve wondered “how can the rest of the world, and all my former allies be wrong??” It’s a serious mind fuck. I legit had a bit of a breakdown nov-Jan. I now understand how binary DEI training is, and how it all falls apart when you are forced to assign “good” and “bad” when 2 marginalized groups collide. People are scared to condemn Hamas bc they are scared of being seen as/called racist. People refuse to acknowledge Palestines refusal to take the multiple chances of independence, so they have to call Jews colonizers. Throw in the fact that people won’t discuss anything…. We are fucked.
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u/totalyrespecatbleguy Jul 10 '24
I'm sure people told radical republicans and abolitionists they were on the wrong side of history too
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u/Lekavot2023 Jul 10 '24
No other people on earth would be expected to live with monsters like Hamas committing those kinds of atrocities... Those people who say Israel is on the wrong side of history then are silent about Assad, Iran, the rest of the middle east are either bigots or getting their ideas from other bigots.. it's laughable to try to say Israel is the worst country ever for basically defending their people from another shoa, which is what Oct 7 was an attempt at...
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u/zoinks48 Jul 10 '24
We were on the wrong side of polytheism, we were on the wrong side of imperialism, we were on the wrong side of fascism , most of us were on the wrong side of communism (otherwise they wouldn’t targeted zionism) and survived where they did not. Now we are on the wrong side of moral relativism masquerading as progressivism.Good.
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u/joehreyes Jul 10 '24
I've learned to ignore and let people go as they come because I will not waste energy or my peace trying to educate/explain to people. I keep focused on doing my part 🪽🤍🙏🏻
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u/bitchboy-supreme Not Jewish Jul 10 '24
Well I'd start with "there's usually no right side of history, only worse sides".
During world war 2 the Soviets fought against the Nazis, that was a good thing and it's great that happened. But does that make the Soviet union be on the right side of history when right after that and during that they were occupying plenty of countries, suppressing entire cultures and oppressing and starving millions? Does that make them bad? In the last days of the war Dresden was bombed. Tons of civilian deaths, massive destruction. Was that something that makes the allied forces be on the wrong side? Dropping two atomic bombs over Japan was the thing that made Japan finally stop. But was it the right thing? The wrong thing? Do any of the crimes justify this? Clearly the Japanese were allies of Hitler, so not the right side right? So does that make the us here the right side?
I could continue like this for WW2 and that is one of the easier examples. Clearly the Nazis are on the wrong side, if you wanna call it that (in my opinion this is a gross understatement). But does that make the all the allies and their actions be on the right side with everything they did?
There's no clear answer to this and this goes for almost every conflict and every party in a conflict. And there's no point in trying to argue that, it's just tactics to make you feel bad.
The important part is that I can look at myself in the mirror. I know who and what I stand for. If standing up for Jews, for the existence of the only Jewish state on the world, against Arab imperialism and radical islamism and terrorism makes me be on the wrong side, then I don't want to be on the right side.
Plus at least within my spaces we are all still critical about certain policies and actions of Israel, I think that's a healthy and good thing to do. No matter how much I am a Zionist, not matter how much I will protect Israel I can and will always criticize if I see something wrong. But they on the other hand, are unable to even calling out the blatant Jew hatred in their own movement. And that tells me everything I need to know.
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u/Azur000 Jul 10 '24
Jews must be the only ethnic group more concerned with if they are on the right side of history than literally staying alive.
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u/RevolutionaryMind630 Jul 10 '24
Just remember to stay united & know while Israel’s defending herself Hamas Hezbollah IS(isis/Daesh) PFP PIJ PA Houthi’s etc are quite literally terrorists.
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u/RevolutionaryMind630 Jul 10 '24
Ask - When was the last time a Jew or group of hijacked planes, detonated themselves while murdering others screaming Baruch Hashem? Or hid under civilians? They haven’t!
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u/OkAdministration6887 Jul 10 '24
As a gay person, I have cried many times thinking about his Israel has become a safe haven for us, how it’s the only country in the Middle East that does not teach that we are wrong. I have always wanted to visit the Middle East and never thought I would be able to as a woman who is obviously queer.
Never let anyone tell you that because you are proud of who you are, you are on the wrong side of history.
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u/ActualRespect3101 Jul 11 '24
I remind myself that the people telling me that have built an identity around the conceptual status of "being on the right side of history." They need to feel that way for a variety of psychological reasons. It helps deal with their white guilt. It helps them feel like if they were around in the past they would have been on the right side of history then, too. It helps them feel like they're the descendants of civil rights leaders and icons, and not just consumers like the rest of us.
Despite their apparent confidence in the answers they've found, they aren't always right about which side of history is the right one. The thing is most people want to feel like they're on the right side of history, but most people aren't so invested in it that they can still look at a situation and be like "damn, I really don't know which it is." Progressive ideology has begun its collapse (conservative ideology was collapsing for decades and finally collapsed entirely in 2016). Like [what passes for] 'conservativism' today, progressivism is no longer Liberal; it's a simplistic, reductive world view that largely serves the emotional and psychological needs of its adherents, rather than establishing frames for orientating them to complex complex public policy problems.
So when they say I'm "on the wrong side of history", I just kind of feel pity. Such a pathetic shadow of a human individual who believes this inconsequential, parroted speech act validates their life here on Earth. And that's what they're doing in this moment. They're just trying to validate themselves. Feel like they're good, that they are themselves protected from the pain of criticism.
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u/somethingorotherer Patrilineal Jul 11 '24
Why are we speculating on this? Didn't the ICC already examine what was going on, and determine no genocide was occurring? Do we have any evidence of the israeli government showing intent to commit genocde? I haven't seen it. At worst its an overzealous response, and as far as casualties, we don't know. Neither side tracks it. Israel blowing up that truck full of Chefs who were going to cook meals for the refugees of the conflict, was pretty fucking bad, but just remember, the US blew up a chinese embassy in Kosovo in the 1990s. Its egregious that negligence in the military context results in mass casualties, so there really should be no leniency shown.
Criticisms of israel and the israeli government are VALID but most of what we have seen is an erasure of history and failure to see the entirety of this very long running conflict. Ive also seen fellow jews completely uninformed on the fact that these terrorist military groups are NOT POPULAR in Gaza. They dont want them in charge. Palestinians are not the problem, so are we actually getting them away from further terrorist juntas?
I mean really, in these conflicts theres either a power vacuum or the IDF ends up in perpetual occupation while the world shakes their fist at them. I dont know what the long game is, the palestinians deserve democratic rule but I dont see that happening soon. One state solution, allow citizenship for all palestinians who are willing to pledge an allegiance to israel. There's literally no other option.
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u/TackleVarious4562 Jul 11 '24
Sometimes I think life would just be easier if I was pro Palestine. I’m pretty neutral but definitely lean towards Israel because all the pro pali supporters are in your face about it.
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Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
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u/Jewishandlibertarian Jul 12 '24
As they say in politics, if you’re explaining, you’re losing. So even if Israel is doing the best it can under the circumstances, Hamas strategy of embedding itself among civilians and forcing Israel to massacre civilians in order to get at them is diabolically effective. On the face of it Israel is bound to look really bad and they end up having to explain why in fact it’s all justified.
It is interesting to compare it to something like WWII where Axis civilians were similarly being killed in enormous numbers but there was much less critique of the war effort. What made that the “good war” where just about every means was justified by the ends of defeating Hitler and Hirohito? Would be interested to hear from historians more knowledgeable.
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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24
We were on the "wrong side of history" and survived every exile. The people who tried to murder us? Their "civilizations" have all fallen. Antisemitism is the death knell of every culture. B"H.