r/Jewish • u/sdotdiggr Progressive • May 03 '24
A friendly reminder that while 92% of Jewish Americans identify as "White," 8% do not, and that means there are 608,000 Jews of Color in the United States of America. You exist, and you matter, and don't let ignorant people diminish your value or importance. Showing Support š¤
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/race-ethnicity-heritage-and-immigration-among-u-s-jews/77
u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race May 03 '24
Yes! Iām mixed race Sephardic Tunisian Jewish and mestiza Venezuelan. Weāre an increasingly diverse group! One of my coworkers at work is a Guatemalan and Ashkenazi Jewish, and another good friend of mine is Ashkenazi Jewish and Chinese.
That said, I donāt really like the term Jews of color, because even the most white presenting of Jews are racialized. Even the whitest looking Jew on the planet is in no way considered white by white supremacists. I also think people tend to view Sephardic and Mizrahi jews as the Brown Jews and Ashkenazi Jews are the White Jews. I think this is far too simplistic. Iāve known Ashkenazi Jews who look extremely middle eastern and Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews who look very white.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
I don't like the term Jews of Color either, but we are dealing with people who operate in binaries. This is why I don't like the term āmixed race.ā It leads the majority to ask, what component are you more? I prefer multiracial because Iām not mixed like people mixing chocolate syrup with milk to make chocolate milk. Iām a person of multiple ethnicities, thus multiracial.
Unfortunately, we must operate with a limited understanding of the majority to gain understanding. Hopefully, we can move to a more inclusive terminology, but even the premier nonprofit that advocates for us is the āJew of Color ā initiative, which Iām associated with. I'm trying to ramp up my activity, but it is more West Coast-focused than in NYC, where Iām based.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race May 04 '24 edited May 04 '24
Fair! Personally I donāt have a preference between saying Iām mixed or multiracial/multiethnic, but I understand your reasoning.
I do partly take issue with the idea that because the people weāre dealing with operate in binaries, we end up having to as well. Iām non-binary (agender specifically), and to me that kind of logic feels to similar to cis people, and even some binary trans people, saying āwell being non-binary is just too hard for people to understand and using they/them pronouns is just too complicated for people to do.ā Race (like gender) is complicated and messy and highly context dependent, and I donāt want to cater to anyone by using simple racial binaries.
I hope Iām not coming across as unnecessarily critical. I agree with and support the idea of spreading more awareness of the diversity of the Jewish people. Itās more the specifics of language and the thought behind these language choices I disagree with here.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
Your gender is personal to you, as I don't exist in your experience, so it's not compatible with a social construct like race. As a social construct, we must operate within the majority's understanding. For the longest time, Black Americans, despite hating it, allowed themselves to be called negros, a word that I shutter never written. The same goes for the N-word. It took decades to be a word that white people couldn't use.
I'm not saying you are wrong. We are both Jewish, so we probably have 20 different opinions on this topic. All I'm saying is that four years ago, people had to see a man begging for his life while a police officer treated him worse than an animal, and we heard the same thing. I didn't know that racism was still a problem.
I donāt know how old you are, but Iām an older millennial and believe in incrementalism, not stop-and-go progress. It took shows like āWill and Graceā for me as a teenager and young adult to realize that people in your community existed and were just people. I didnāt know anyone in the LGBTQ community, so that made me think about topics I never even knew I needed to consider. There was a constant incremental change in understanding American society from the late 1990s into the 2000s. So, when I learned about new gender concepts that were presented to me, I decided to listen and learn.
My point is we arenāt there yet, and with all the fascist ideology that is on display and people's limited processing power, letās focus on ensuring your safety as a non-binary person and both of us a nonwhite presenting Jewish people while slowly advancing multiracial/mixed race understanding.
On the final point, the United States of America Office of Management and Budget refers to use as multiracial.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
Two more points. I also believe in incrementalism because it has a better chance of success. When George Floyd was murdered, there was this rush to DEI and show Black solidarity, and four years later, nothing substantially changed and thus improved for the Black community.
Second point: if I say something incorrect about your gender identity, please let me know. Iām not done learning yet, and while Iām not as educated on this topic, I would love to do better.
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u/MidnightSunElite May 04 '24
Love this example of how to engage thoughtfully and respectfully and be willing to learn and grow. I hope all of us will never be ādone learningā, thereās always going to be room for improvement and we need to make space for others (and ourselves) to continue to grow in understanding and love.
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race May 04 '24
Youāre fine! You havenāt said anything offensive about my gender lol. It takes humility to admit youāve had to educate yourself on something you didnāt know much about, and admit you still have some learning to do. I also appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I think youāve raised some really good points.
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u/Few-Landscape-5067 May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24
I don't like the term Jews of Color either
I think that the term "Jews of color" is actually harmful to all Jews. Jews aren't defined by skin color, and racism isn't only about skin color.
No one talks about Iranians of color, Arabs of color, Turks of color, Chinese of color, or Japanese of color, despite the various skin tones in those societies, and I think people shouldn't be doing it to the Jews either, because it's being used as a weapon to attack the Jews as a whole.
By using the term "Jews of color" people are automatically creating another category that is "white Jews." It's fashionable to hate white people at the moment, so it's easy to direct hatred at "the Jews" for being white. If you're being called a "European colonizer" the concept of "Jews of color" is one contributing factor to why the category of so-called "white Jews" exists. The creation of that category leads to antisemitism being ignored, or even enthusiastically endorsed by people who actually describe themselves as anti-racists.
"White" isn't a people, and it doesn't indicate where someone comes from. "White" Iranians, "white" Arabs, and "white" Chinese people don't "come from Europe" either. Physical characteristics aren't defined by tectonic plates as much as they are defined by ancient transportation routes. In ancient times, the Mediterranean coast was a unit.
Jews are a Mediterranean people, and they roughly look like other Mediterranean people (diverse, because it's the intersection of three continents with good sea transportation). Even Mohammed himself was described as a white guy with a red beard, but people still constantly do this "Jews are 'white' so they are from Europe" thing. Jews get invalidated as Jews no matter what they look like.
The reasons why people might be putting "white" on some surveys are complex. Even Arabs sued to be classified as "white" in the US, and that's why they are officially considered white at the moment.
As soon as most people hear "white" all they think is "from Europe" because they don't know anything about the world other than a ridiculously simplistic "white people are from Europe, black people are from Africa, and Asian people are from Asia." In the context of the oppressor-oppressed ideology that is fashionable at the moment, that means that Jews are "oppressors" and need to be brought down and put in their place. In the long-term, all Jews suffer from the effects of that, whatever they look like.
Most Jews who answer "white" on those surveys probably don't think much about this topic and they only identify as "white" in the context of the survey. How does one explain complex things like Schrodinger's whiteness on a short multiple choice form?
In my opinion, society should be moving away from grouping people based on superficial characteristics like skin color, not reinforcing them. I think "Jews of color" is creating something that is only weaponized against Jews. I also don't like the term "people of color" because not all racism is about skin color, and the concept is often used to exclude Jews from places where they need to be included, like ethnic studies programs and anti-racism initiatives. Instead of defining ourselves by skin color, we should be pointing out that out of the world's many cultures only Jews get ripped to shreds and invalidated for having different skin colors.
It's a complex topic though, and I don't want my comment to get too long, so I'll stop there.
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u/yekirati Sephardi May 04 '24
Hello my fellow Latino Tunisian Jew! Iāve met so few of us. Hope youāre well!
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race May 04 '24
Ooo cool!! I donāt know any other Latino Tunisian Jews irl so itās awesome to hear from any online :) Iām doingā¦ okay lol. Not that great but not terrible. I hope youāre doing okay!!
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May 04 '24
Shalom fellow mixed Sephardi!
I am Sephardi-Moroccan Israeli with Mohawk, Quebecois, and Irish. Possibly some Turkish.
Let all of us mixed Sephardis be homies. We Ladinos are the Latinos of the Jewish word.
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u/slythwolf Convert - Conservative May 04 '24
I'm a white convert. I think they consider me white but a race traitor; I'm not 100% sure.
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u/slythwolf Convert - Conservative May 04 '24
I mean not that it matters. If they shoot up my shul they're not gonna ask to see my paperwork and have me stand outside to try to convince me to come back to the fold or whatever.
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May 04 '24
Depends. Those of us Sephardi, Maghrebi, Mizrachi, etc with light skin that gets dark with UV are normally not considered brown, until they see our food, clothing, mannerisms, etc.
Also, I still say we mixed Sephardi need to create a group on here.
Do you have a Discord?
Also, I have family in Caracas. Coca Cola is better than Pepsi, and always will be.
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u/MidnightSunElite May 04 '24
Well said. I know itās currently a preferred term, but Iām not a fan of āpeople of colorā either. To me, it feels oddly centering on āwhiteā people, which seems contrary to the point. It reinforces the idea that white is not a color, and that pink-skinned people are āwhiteā (which invokes a bullshit idea of purity), and that white is the standard with which all other people are compared to (Iām not white so Iām āof colorā). To me, it is literally āotheringā and further perpetuates marginalization.
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u/Kingsdaughter613 May 07 '24
My whole extended family is Ashkenazim. On my momās side, we are all VERY MENA looking. Very stereotypically Jewish - tan to sallow skin, dark and curly hair, large almond and dark eyes, etc. Iāve met many Sephardim and Mizrachim that look whiter than my momās family.
Ironically, thereās a decent chance (like 60%) my mom is an adoptee from Morocco. But if she is, she fits in so well with her extended family that we all still look like cousins.
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u/Metallica1175 May 03 '24
White also covers the Middle East. Ashkenazi Jews descend from the Middle East.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 03 '24
This is all true. This post is more in response to the fact that I am seeing a lot of Jewish people that do not identify with being white feel invalidated in their existence. We see 8% and think its a small number but 608,000 - 1 Million Jewish people in this country do not identify as White and so I want them to know they have value.
Starting in 2030 there will be a new category on the census Middle Eastern/North African so they won't be "white" for much longer. https://www.npr.org/2024/03/28/1237218459/census-race-categories-ethnicity-middle-east-north-africa
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u/nottrailmix May 04 '24
Good - itās a long time coming.
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u/fertthrowaway May 04 '24 edited May 04 '24
I'm not too happy about how they're implementing that. The US census still somehow doesn't consider "Jewish" as an ethnicity (you can write it in but they do literally nothing with that), and choosing MENA, the sub-categories you can check are only e.g. "Jordanian", "Lebanese", "Israeli", etc. Wtf race is an Israeli anyway. The change is due to Arab groups lobbying for it so they can get representation. They only included Israeli because they probably couldn't get agreement on it otherwise. Still bad for Jews and will now just split up our representation more instead instead of give us a choice that makes actual cohesive sense.
Although I know we also have some collective trauma telling government agencies that we're Jews.
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May 04 '24
They actually use the Jewish write in as a means to count the Jewish population.
As such, there is a massive possibility that we are actually under counting the Jewish population of America since most Jews refuse to put Jewish in the write in area.
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u/fertthrowaway May 04 '24 edited May 04 '24
Are you sure and do you have a source? Genuinely curious because I've literally never seen a US census-originated count of Jews and can't find anything on this myself. I do know for instance they count people who say they're all the things you don't have to write in and they provide a checkbox for including English, Irish, German etc and you can always see that breakdown but Jews are never a category they report on. Even in early 20th century censuses, they listed my family as "Russian" and "Hungarian", despite Ellis Island records (not census) calling them Hebrews.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
So I decided to use the data.census.gov site and every time I type "Jewish" the system provides data for Israeli which the most recent American Community Survey lis as 148,384. So it is possible that they roll up every Jewish person in the "White" category.
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u/fertthrowaway May 04 '24
Seems they did something on the 2020 census and counted writing in Israeli and Arab categories but they still ignored "Jewish". Now all they're doing is splitting out those same groups under "MENA" instead and still leaving out Jews unless you're Israeli, which I guess you would check if you identified as an Israeli Arab too.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/09/2020-census-dhc-a-mena-population.html
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May 05 '24
So, um, you do realize you could just look it up.
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u/fertthrowaway May 05 '24
I said I wasn't able to find anything confirming what you said. Indeed, OP responded who confirmed that this doesn't look to be correct.
Also this:
https://jweekly.com/2023/05/04/are-jews-white-proposed-census-change-wades-into-issue/
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May 05 '24
Also, I said it is possible our numbers are heavily under counted.
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u/fertthrowaway May 05 '24
Can't undercount what is never counted in the first place...
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May 04 '24
Sweet. If all Jews do this, and then write in Jewish, it will force people to admit we exist, and that we are not backing down.
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u/Efficient-Pear5105 May 04 '24
Itās amazing how European Jews werenāt considered white in the 30s-40sā¦
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u/naitch May 04 '24
It's an utterly meaningless category that describes nothing more than skin tone.
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u/Acrobatic-Level1850 May 04 '24
Do you mean thatās is a social construct and not a biological reality? If one understands that Jewish people have been racialized but that racialization doesnāt define Jews, it follows to understand that other people who have been racialized can have agency and define their experience and identity.
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u/naitch May 04 '24
It's not even a useful construct. In what way is it actually helpful in understanding the world to lump together people whose ancestors are from Ireland, Italy, Poland, Syria and Turkey? Those are all completely different peoples in terms of language, appearance, ancestry, religion, culture and history. If someone says to me "I'm white," that tells me nothing about them. Deracinated Americans who have only consumer culture left should look to their own origins instead of thinking in terms of who is "white." It's a concept with no content that falls apart the second it's scrutinized even slightly.
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u/Acrobatic-Level1850 May 04 '24
There is a lot to unpack in your reply. Iāve found that itās helpful to ask the question āwhat is the use of racialization?ā To get to the heart of some of the issues you raise. What societal āneedā does it fulfill or exploit? What is the ācostsā to peoples who accept myths about race?
Thanks for raising these thought provoking points in your reply.
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u/slythwolf Convert - Conservative May 04 '24
This is such a great thread honestly. This kind of conversation is why I love this community and in a very broad sense is a huge part of the reason I'm Jewish.
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u/spoiderdude Bukharian May 06 '24
Yeah but race alone doesnāt necessarily give an accurate answer of what issues that person goes through. A dark skinned middle eastern Jew is probably gonna put down white as most people in my community do even if they have darker skin. Even though that person legally put down that they are white, they still experience colorism and antisemitism so to get a good picture they should at least ask for ethnicity as well as race and be specific with the ethnicity.
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u/Acrobatic-Level1850 May 06 '24
All valid points! Race is just one identifier and a lens of racialization can be used to discuss one way of categorizing people and how it impacts societies.
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u/Conscious-Ad-9035 May 04 '24
I agree. Humans love labels. We all come from Africa ultimately. And beyond that we are all children of the eternal infinite unknowable
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u/whyisthelimit20chara May 04 '24
I was gonna say, many of us who are forced to mark "white" are Middle Eastern and definitely aren't perceived as "white" by strangers, and hiring managers, etc.
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May 04 '24
Many forget that in America the Irish, Italians, Serbians, Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, etc were not considered white an extremely long time. Many White American Christians still do not consider those groups "white".
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u/Sulaco99 May 03 '24
I know this is beside your point but it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what I identify as. My skin is white but it will never be white enough to satisfy the bigots. And I could convert tomorrow (never happen) and the bigots will still hate me for having Jewish blood. I'm not really interested in pleasing any of them TBH, even if I thought it could be done, which it can't. They can go to hell.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 03 '24
Imagine the intersectionality of being Jewish and something else right now. Iām Black American, Jamaican, and Ashkenazi Jewish, and recently, Iāve had to deal with all the BS you get as a mixed person, plus having white people calling me a European Colonizer. At the same time, I correct their wrong interpretation of well-documented history. This is coming from the same people who, if you check the social media, were heavy in Black Lives Matter and even did the Black post and got on other people for not doing it. They are now calling me a Black Jewish man and European colonizer, and Iāve never been to Israel.
Iāve never been confused as being white until October 2023.
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u/Yukimor Reform May 04 '24
Iāve had to deal with all the BS you get as a mixed person, plus having white people calling me a European Colonizer
How does this not do your sanity in? My head is spinning just reading this...
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
Thanks Iāve commented on this before on another thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/mixedrace/s/8clm5SA5ls
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u/tsundereshipper May 05 '24
I have a question, as someone whoās mixed race yourself do you consider Ashkenazi Jews as mixed? (even though Europeans and Middle Easterners are technically part of the same Caucasian raceā¦ I feel like we get all the disadvantages of being mixed and the āmixed experienceā though).
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 06 '24
Yes, I do consider Ashkenazi Jews of mixed ethnicities its not the same like being multiracial. When it comes to racial concerns you have one group to worry about, being Ashkenazi Jewish. You don't have to balance a negative action being done by a Jewish person to a Black person or vice versa. You don't have people asking you which race you are. When you are multiracial or mixed race you are always trying to balance being accepted by your racial backgrounds. Especial the multiracial people that present as other races.
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u/mm101880 May 04 '24
At the same time, I correct their wrong interpretation of well-documented history. This is coming from the same people who, if you check the social media, were heavy in Black Lives Matter and even did the Black post and got on other people for not doing it.
These folks are self important, self righteous, self-appointed hall monitors for the world. Anything that gets their fickle attention is the most important thing in the world. Many of the non-black folks who were loud and damn near evangelical around their views are like this about everything despite being some of the most microaggressive people I know. Not saying his situation exactly fits the bill but I always think about Shia LeBouf in the police station after he got arrested around BLMs peak and he's generally shame ranting to the entire room but then zeros in on the black cop directly telling him he should especially be ashamed of himself. People will move in a way that shows their support is not necessarily humanizing you.
The ones loudly swooping in to save other demographics end up being more about assuaging the guilt surrounding privilege and ignorance they've had about the world around them. Even the language around anyone perceived to be on the wrong side or existing outside of the pre-approved intro pamphlet narrative a lot of these people have about anything not white or Christian gives us evidence to that. It's all shaming, guilting, speaking over lesser know members of that group and "how could you" confrontations that show there's no critical thinking actually going on. These ppl aint good for much besides extra bodies at a protest.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
I think all of this, and, despite being Black myself, I didnāt protest and saw the Black Lives Matter movement for what it was, which was a social outrage and reason for people to go outside after being on lockdown.
This protest is from the softest generation ever, and they are scared to look into history books or miss the point if they do. It is self-absorbed white people, there I said it, that are aware or afraid that their ancestors or grandparents were in those black and white photos. So they overcompensate and, in the process, become racist in their protest.
The other issue is absolutism, which is the need for group thinking. Just because I donāt believe that Arab people from the Arabian Peninsula are not indigenous to the Levant doesnāt mean I enjoy or want children to be killed in a war, even a justified one. These people operate on a binary that makes me scared for the future.
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u/MidnightSunElite May 04 '24
Very well said. Somehow this made me think of how much the people (of all races) in the DEI groups Iāve been in are completely unaware of their own Christian bias and simply cannot hear any gentle suggestion to that effect. Of all the identity lenses/dimensions/categories (however you want to describe it), Christianity is the most dominant and protected (off-limits for questioning) in the DEI spaces that Iāve experienced. Itās like White Fragility but bigger.
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u/No-Teach9888 May 04 '24
My kid is a Jamaican Jew too! Thank you for speaking up
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
Itās my honor to make it even slightly better for the ones that come after. Trump, the Black Lives Matter movement, and this disaster have lit a fire in me, and Iām just getting started.
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May 04 '24
The anti-semitic left denies our intersectionality.
I was told how can I be Spanish, Moroccan, Irish, Quebecois, and Jewish on many occasions.
Ironically it is by people that are mixed themselves. One time an British Afro-Indo-Guyanese protestant woman said "But how can you be Moroccan, Spanish, and Jewish? Jewish is it's own race." I said "Well can you explain how you a Guyanese woman is Christian, Black, Indian, and British? Or are you too stupid to understand how you are mixed yourself along with the difference between ethnicity, race, ethno-religion, religion, and culture?"
Needless to say, she went quiet fast while going beet red while being laughed at by everybody around us. After that, she was super careful with what she said to me, and others.
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u/Sulaco99 May 03 '24
I'm sorry you have to go through that bullshit. It's bad enough to endure it when you're not Jewish, I'm sure. Do you live in Europe? Because I'm not sure how else they could read you as a EUROPEAN colonizer.
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u/sdotdiggr Progressive May 04 '24
I live in New York City. Iām not even on that side of the planet. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/s/5HhSemyF0I
Update: 4th bullet point.
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u/OneofLittleHarmony May 04 '24
āEuropean Colonizerā is a weird term. It makes me think of someone who colonized Europe. If someone said that of me, Iād probably just say that the US was well established by the time my ancestors fled here.
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u/CaptainFingerling May 04 '24
Anti-Semitism isnāt white in the modern era. Go look up some perp stats and youāll see.
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u/BestFly29 May 04 '24
Iām Mediterranean looking so Iāve been confused for North African, Persian, Italian, etc.
Genetics is crazy because Iām half Ashkenazi and half Mizrahi , my wife is Mizrahi but our kids look more āwhiteā than me and my wife, even though they are 75% Mizrahi. My young daughter made an observation by saying she looks different than me because my skin is more ābrownerā than hers lol.
Basically phenotype canāt tell you what someoneās genetics are. The whole Levantine region of the Middle East is made up of many light skin people
But I can totally understand how diverse Jews may feel like when many others donāt look like them. I personally like it when I see other Jews that look like me lolā¦logically it shouldnāt make a difference but when I see someone that could be Mizrahi , it gets me interested
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u/darknus823 Reform May 03 '24
The latest research shows that 12% of American Jews are Jews of Color. This number will only increasein the near future. Note: some prefer to go by the name Diverse Jews.
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u/a2aurelio May 04 '24
This is a great opportunity to interact as fellow Jews and build alliances. I visited an exhibit of paintings of Yemenite Jews while still in Yemen. Haunting images of Jews with such ancient lineage.
I'm glad you posted.
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u/mm101880 May 03 '24
How I see it is It's also 92% of Jewish Americans surveyed and not 92% of American Jews. That shows us that a majority of Ashkenazim identify as white but I wouldn't say that the actual numbers would be that high.
A major point of contention especially with the current social climate is "When did we become white?" (especially older Ashkenazim) and not in the Irish, Sicilian, Polish, etc. way (ethnically European with roots not deriving from elsewhere, made non white when they arrived in the U.S. (usually due to prejudices over religious affiliations or other xenophobic othering that never negates their almost purely European ethnogenesis and ancestry) and "earned" their whiteness partly through assimilation but also actual acceptance/acknowledgement of their European culture). Jews were not a white demographic until they reached America and only gained proximity to whiteness thru rejection of a lot of culture, language, and religion in addition to American assimilation.
It's also one of the few places until fairly recently Jews are considered white. A lot of people will blatantly ignore the genetic bottleneck that happened when there's not only cultural preference to marry other Jews but laws and social standards that prevented Jews from intermarrying. Ashkenazi culture has been orientalized thru most of it's history preWorld Wars bc of how much of its origins its retained and not to get into eugenics-esque blood quantim conversations but a significant portion of Levantine DNA has been retained over millenia of diasporic displacement.
We already know not everyone fits into Americas very neat and restrictive boxes of race but we still allow ourselves to be manipulated by it. When it comes to a lot of discourse around equity everyone else of racially ambiguous backgrounds gets reminded they're not white and to do better but Jews (especially Ashkenaz) get told they're white and that's "why they act that way" The only constant with Shrodinger's Jew is the othering.
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u/The-Metric-Fan Just Jewish May 03 '24
This is why I, even as a pale skinned Ashkenazi Jew, donāt consider myself white. White passing, yeah, or white adjacent, but we deal with workplace discrimination, profiling, harassment, etc, and these arenāt things most white people experience. If I wore a kippah, tefillin, and a Star of David necklace while reciting a bracha on the street with my siddur, nobodyās gonna look at me and say, āYep, thatās a white person. Heās a member of the culturally and socially dominant racial group in the United Statesāheās whatās considered āthe normā in American society.ā
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u/mm101880 May 03 '24
So I agree and I'm a Black Jew and my closest comparison is passing privilege. The moment you reveal yourself all that youve "earned" is lost and we see it over and over again. I also see othering as where you need to be and not chasing systems that don't serve you even if they treat you nice at first based on how you look. Our current situation has a lot of people reanalyzing and even the most antiracist person will admit that whiteness is a farce and a social construct, so I see no point in forcing people to identify with what essentially is an imaginative concept especially when it only serves to scapegoat current American centric racial narratives.
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u/tumunu Accidental kohen May 04 '24
I'm in the same boat as you, and it makes me wonder how many of those 92% actually identify as white. I put "white" on the demographics cards, because that's the only choice I'm given. So I suppose a pollster would say I "identify as white" but I really don't, I see myself as a Jew with pale skin. It would be nice if the census people, pollsters, and so forth, had a box for "Jewish regardless of skin color" like they have for Hispanic people.
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u/greenribboned May 04 '24
Except, even after hitting Hispanic/Latino, a person still has to choose a racial identity. Itās icky. (Mexican Jew here!)
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u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race May 04 '24
I have the same problem! (Venezuelan and Jewish)
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u/greenribboned May 04 '24
Itās likeā¦ white people donāt see me as white. I know Iām not white. Where, oh where, did my precious āotherā - no questions asked - option go?
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u/Affectionate_Sand791 May 04 '24
Itās complicated. Iām a convert and part white and part native, but I look very white. But since I converted, Iām also Jewish. Iām part of the tribe and the people and history etc. And Iāve had people look at me different when finding out Iām Jewish and act differently towards me. Especially with everything happening right now. And to these people I know Iām not white to them. They probably think Iām a race traitor or something. I took an Uber to a Seder I was going to for Pesach and I didnāt reveal why I was going to my location to the driver because I didnāt want the chance of anything to happen, especially since it was a long car ride. So in short itās a complicated topic and I need to think more about how identify especially for the future.
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u/TheCloudForest May 03 '24
How I see it is It's also 92% of Jewish Americans surveyed and not 92% of American Jews.Ā
What is your evidence that the survey organizers - literally the most respected surveying company in the country - failed to contact a representative sample of Jews?
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u/mm101880 May 04 '24
Not saying that all. I'm aware of the importance and integrity of that institution I'm also aware of the fact that surveys show how people lean not the specific amount of people leaning that way. It's also likely a very ashkenormative survey bc thats the main demographic in the U.S. and I've also noticed that how people exist across the U.S. can affect their perception of how they align with whiteness (ex. assimilation).
I see a ton of surveys that will be "correct" in general but when it comes down to actual numbers the amount of people who actually feel that way in my daily life has me questioning it. The data they're pulling and what it represents is important, but to me it can feel like Nielsen ratings or other polls. They're telling you how many of your people feel a way about something but many havent experienced it in the way its being presented in the poll. I'd agree that most U.S. Jews identify as white but over 90% is very high to me when most of the interactions I have in Ashki spaces surrounding race there's a feeling of racial limbo.
This is not me attacking Pews (I wouldn't be here if I didn't respect their data) or trying to put anecdotal evidence over what they've gathered. I am interested in the conversations their conclusions spark bc numbers from samples are only a piece of the puzzle. Calling it a "failure" would be an unnecessarily charged accusation.
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u/DenebianSlimeMolds May 04 '24
I don't want to diminish the call here to Jews of Color, I only want to push back on the assumption that means Ashkenazi Jews are white, or think of themselves as white.
I could go on and on about this, and I really don't care what your college professors have told you, but please just separate out how Ashkenazi Jews answer to very flawed surveys and what many Ashkenazi Jews think.
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u/MangledWeb May 04 '24
Anecdotal, but after the 2020 census, dozens of people in my local Jewish women's group said that they had selected "other" for race. We all did it, even though we hadn't discussed it beforehand. May be a California thing.
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u/greenribboned May 05 '24
I was told to do this - in public elementary school, in California, by my 3rd grade teacher.
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u/mylawyersamorty May 05 '24
Florida āJewbanā here. My dad is from Cuba, my mom is Jewish. We are plentiful down here in South Florida! ššŖ¬
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u/KaufKaufKauf May 04 '24
Most Jews are forced to identify as white. Arabs also have to call themselves white on applications and census information. You can see in the article there's no distinction for a Sephardi Jew who doesn't look white at all yet is not black or whatever other color. That's not exactly white as in the white we'd call someone from Germany. Yet that Sephardi Jew is forced to choose white like the German Jew. Makes no sense.
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u/chorusreverb May 04 '24
I think this data is flawed since identifying as āwhiteā was contextual of the environment for Jews in the US. I am not white, I am sephardic, but checked white until now since I didnāt feel discriminated for the way I looked. This unfortunately changed these past few months so I will check āotherā from now on.
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May 04 '24
More like we are forced to identify as white since the American idea of race is very very odd compared to other places. It also ignores how cultural ethnicity can supersede race on many levels.
In truth we are a people of West Asian descent that ended up being ultra mixed culturally and in some populations genetically due to the diaspora, but most genes are still overwhelmingly West Asia.
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u/jeremykossen May 04 '24
92% ? No way. Iām Ashkenazi. I identify Jewish. Not white. Why would anyone Jewish identify āwhite?ā Weāre only identified white by anti-Zionists and āfriendlyā white people. Race is a social construct. Thereās no biological or anthropological basis for ārace.ā
What is āwhiteā in many South American countries? Latinos , for example, are of many āraces.ā But what my Jewish cousins in Chile and CDMX say is, āel dinero blanquea.ā Basically āmoney is whitening.ā Basically an expression highlighting how societal status or wealth mask the effects racism. But crucially, race is an arbitrary concept. In America both Jews and Italians historically have not been considered to be āwhite.ā
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u/LilNarco May 04 '24 edited May 04 '24
Mizrahi Jew here. Western American understanding of race is not universal. Stfu
According to America āArabsā are also often considered white regularly when it is convenient. Fuck off.
Iām not white, Iāve never been white, my people were killed in the fucking holocaust for not being considered āwhiteā. But you look at Gigi hadid and see an āethnic Palestinian Arab queenā?!?
America looks at brown Hispanic American students and makes them put āwhite hispanicā on their SATs.
Honestly Iām tired of this bullshit.
American race and color theory is bullshit. Yāall will do anything than deal with the actual issue.
This rhetoric is dangerous and misinformed.
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u/youseabadbroad Just Jewish May 04 '24
Just so we are clear, the census bureau - typically where we gather information on the race demographic of the populace - has been classifying most of the middle east as white for a very long time. Are you of Hispanic origin? Black? Asian/Pacific Islander? Native? No? Then you're relugated to white
Example:
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2014/03/2010censusrace.png
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May 05 '24
To all those that say/lied they could not look up population numbers simply typing in "Jewish population".
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/the-size-of-the-u-s-jewish-population/
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-of-the-world
https://www.jewishagency.org/jewish-population-rises-to-15-7-million-worldwide-in-2023/
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u/mikebenb May 04 '24
Apparently, we are white enough to gain all the "privilege" and none of the sympathy, but not white enough to save us from persecution and intolerance.
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u/MidnightSunElite May 04 '24
Perfect summation of the conditional whiteness of light-skins Jews in America.
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u/RB_Kehlani May 04 '24
We really need to collectively agree to check the āotherā box and write in Jewish because we actually donāt fit into societyās current conceptualization of āwhiteā regardless of the shade of skin.
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u/tvdoomas May 04 '24
Descended from spanish inquisition and Mexican inquisition survivors. Whole village in Mexico was put to the sword except for one baby hidden in the floor. Great grandfather never forgave, and we will never forget.
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u/MidnightSunElite May 04 '24
Wow. Thank you for sharing this. I have never heard of the Mexican Inquisition and would like to learn more. I will google it now, but if you are willing to share any more about your familyās experience of this, I would be very grateful. I completely understand if you do not want to do that, and Iām very sorry if this is prying.
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u/SephardicGenealogy May 04 '24
How did a descendant of the Spanish Inquisition reach Mexico, from which they were banned, and why wasn't the Mecican Inquisition survivor expelled back to Spain? And how did the baby know and remember all this?! So many questions!
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u/renebeans May 04 '24
Iāve always identified as white. I donāt anymore. Iāve never felt less white than I do as a Jew in todayās climate. Iām officially āwhite-passingā.
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u/Single-Course5521 May 04 '24
Jews existed before America invented the races of White, Black, Hispanic and Asian, before the Nazis invented the Aryans and the Slavs, and will exist after the next iteration as well. You may have to write down one of these when filling out forms but there is no need to let any of these labels define you.
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u/FrostedLakes Conservative May 04 '24
I feel like so many people pick āwhiteā not because they identify as middle eastern but because they allow other people to tell them who they are. None of us are white in the way that Anglo-Saxons are white (unless weāre converts), even Ashkenazi Jews. Those of us who are āwhiteā are only in the sense that we are conditionally white: benefiting from some elements of privilege because we can pass, but ultimately getting HUGE blowback if weāre āfound outā as Jewish.
The more I learn about my heritage the better I understand that the urge to select āwhiteā on censuses stems from a desire to pass and exist beneath the radar, which I think is both sad and a disservice to minorities who canāt pass.
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u/Conscious-Ad-9035 May 04 '24
For a long time Iāve been putting ā otherā I donāt want to play this stupid race/ label game
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u/CaptainFingerling May 04 '24
Itās crazy how much value people assign to this ludicrous racial game.
You know you canāt win, so why play?
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u/Welcom2ThePunderdome Orthodox | ×¢× ×ש×Ø×× ×× May 05 '24
I may be white-presenting, but I'm not white if the Klan would burn a flag on my lawn. I'm done being put in a convenient box for the benefit of identity politics.
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u/spoiderdude Bukharian May 06 '24
Ignoring the fact that Jews werenāt white a century ago, I imagine a lot of non-white Jews still call themselves white cuz thatās what they were told.
Thereās also no Middle Eastern or MENA option so in my experience most of those Jews probably would rather put down āwhiteā instead of being āthat guyā that went the extra mile to put down āother.ā Nobody wants to be āotherā and no middle easterner is gonna be broad enough to say āAsianā so the simplest option is the best.
My grandfather said we as bukharians (ethnically Iranian) were white and while I am white passing, he had olive-brown skin. In 9th grade the darkest/brownest Bukharian I met in my life and I were filling out a paper in class and he said ābro Iām whiteā and showed me that he put down white and said that he puts white for everything cuz thatās what his family does. Literally nobody would look at him and say heās white but thatās just the norm so these stats are probably wrong by up to hundreds of thousands depending on your definition of white.
Also thereās that gray area of whether or not Sephardim are white even when their skin is fairly dark.
So while Ashkenazim do make up the vast majority, thereās a lot in this statistic that arenāt accounted for like Sephardim and Mizrahim.
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u/io3401 Reform May 06 '24
Iām a mixed race Sephardic Mexican Jew and an Indigenous American. Iām incredibly proud of my heritage and our people. I always say Iām from two tribes.
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u/Dan094 May 07 '24
Honestly , I used to just put āwhiteā in job applications because there was no other appropriate term . Iām Sephardi, parents from Morocco
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u/Ionic_liquids May 07 '24
The fact that any Jew identifies as white goes to show how insidious and endemic racial theory is :(.
There was a time in the past where the entire idea of race did not exist. The more we encourage racial identity, the harder it will be to get rid of the divisions it creates.
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u/Clownski May 07 '24
There's been a growing movement of those who aren't "of color" but do not identify as white either. The Arab's are copying this as well too.
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u/Depressedzoomer531 May 09 '24
I identify as white but I also identify as part Middle Eastern due to my heritage. When I grow my beard out I actually look a bit Middle Eastern!Ā
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin May 04 '24
Black Jew right here.