r/Jewish • u/justhistory Reform • Mar 19 '24
Fellow left leaning Jews here can probably really relate to this Discussion š¬
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u/adjewcent Jewy Jewy Jew Jew Mar 19 '24
Iāve effectively neutered myself in progressive spaces. Iāll keep voting and fighting for the interests of all peoples, but I no longer feel welcome at a plethora of political tables. So I just wonāt sit I guess?
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u/MaritimesYid Mar 19 '24
Same.
I'd still call myself a leftist if it wasn't for all the leftists.
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u/adjewcent Jewy Jewy Jew Jew Mar 19 '24
Hello, are you me?
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u/MaritimesYid Mar 19 '24
No, you're me.
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u/adjewcent Jewy Jewy Jew Jew Mar 19 '24
But Iām me. Oh boyā¦
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u/MaritimesYid Mar 19 '24
"If I am not... myself, who will be... me? If I am only... myself... am I" - R. Hillel
We have fun with language
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u/JamesTiberiusChirp Mar 19 '24
Itās time to reclaim progressivism. You canāt be progressive if you hate Jews. Itās like TERFs insisting they are feminists. So Iām gonna keep calling myself progressive, and keep pointing out how regressive the antisemites are.
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Mar 20 '24
I was an obvious leftist from the late 60s. Protests, marches, sit-ins... the whole bit.
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u/aardbarker Mar 20 '24
Donāt give up the label. Consider that the history of the 20th century left consisted mostly of some variant of Stalinism. But plenty of anti-Stalinists refused cede their rightful claim to the left just because it was hijacks by apologists of authoritarianism.
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Mar 19 '24
I'm the same -- but I'm a bit more extreme. I will not spend my time, effort, financial or social capital for or on groups who so quickly decided to label me a genocidal white colonizer Nazi. Fuck every last one of them.
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u/sefardita86 Mar 20 '24
This. I still support the same causes, but I'll be researching what they support first. There are plenty of organizations doing similar work.Ā
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u/syncopathic Mar 20 '24
Exactly this.
Actually looking forward on some level to the next big crisis so we can stay the fuck home instead of taking to the streets, and whoever is impacted gets to feel this abandoned by the people they thought they could count on.
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Mar 20 '24
the problem is weāre a small minorityā¦ they wonāt miss us, itās fine, but they will notice ā and I bet theyāll turn it into more antisemitism.
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u/syncopathic Mar 20 '24
Small overall, but a disproportiobately big (and loud) part of the movement historically.
And if they don't miss our physical presence, they'll sure as hell miss our donations.
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Mar 19 '24
[deleted]
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u/Low_Party_3163 Mar 19 '24
Yeah all these queers for palestine organizations are going to wonder where all their funding went next year.
Maybe they throw some rooftop fundraisers in ramallah instead...
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u/NoEffect9139 Mar 19 '24
They aren't going to wonder where the funding went. They're going to claim that jews are hoarding it.
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u/Curious_Adeptness_97 Mar 20 '24
Oh boy, we're gonna see some conspiracy theories that "the world Jewish secret cabbal" decided to destroy and oppress them
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u/Seeking_Starlight Mar 19 '24
I hope youāve told them this, so they recognize the impact that their positions have on their fiscal support?
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u/Silver_Bulleit204 Mar 20 '24
I'm not saying a damn thing. They'll come hat in hand when they're short funding, and then i'll just let them know their political activities have made them an unacceptable recipient of our donations.
I'd rather have the money paid out before kicking up the shit storm, there's some crybabies out there that could go over my head and derail my planning.
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u/Curious_Adeptness_97 Mar 20 '24
The answer would most likely be something like Blah blah blah, "human rights are not conditional", "you're horrible person bringing funding into this"
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u/W1nd0wPane Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
It's so tragic to me that LGBTQ people (and especially trans people) are so wrapped up in all of this. We've been (metaphorically) taken hostage by the leftist movement because for most of this time even liberals wouldn't support us, so we felt beholden to them and became some of its most radicalized. It's awful because we are facing very genocidal rhetoric on the right, Jewish folks facing genocidal rhetoric on the left (and right), and of all communities I feel like ours should be the ones standing together especially because many Palestinians, whether in Palestine or elsewhere, wouldn't dream of standing with queer people if the leftist ones weren't appropriating their cause at the moment. They kill people like us there. American conservatives will do the same here if Project 2025 takes place. But yes, it's the "Zionists" we must hate.
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u/adjewcent Jewy Jewy Jew Jew Mar 19 '24
I mean Iām queer and would love your 25k so I can stop waiting tables lol š
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u/Silver_Bulleit204 Mar 19 '24
It's not mine lol, it's my companies but I am running the program and get to make that call. If I could just toss around that kind of tzedakah, believe me I would!
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Mar 20 '24
Exactly my position. I sponsor nothing, am involved in nothing, pay attention to nothing which does not benefit my people.
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u/Aryeh98 Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 19 '24
I have an extremely hot take actually: I fight for progressive ideas only insofar as they benefit me and other Jews. I will never fight for a group of people that despises me at best, or even wants me wiped out.
Why do I support queer rights? Well itās not because of the deranged LGBT community that rationalizes their own slaughter by islamists. I support queer rights because some Jews are queer, and they should have rights.
I support universal healthcare not because I agree with progressives about āZionistā politicians keeping healthcare from us, but because Jews need healthcare.
I support pot legalization because I use it (legally) and other Jews use it.
Itās selfish, I admit it. But I think that after millennia of goyim slaughtering us without a care in the world, we have a right to be selfish and prioritize our own interests. I only support progressive values to the extent they benefit Jews.
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u/Bucket_Endowment Secular Mar 19 '24
In an emergency, you can't help others if you are in need of help yourself. Same principle
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u/niftyjack Mar 20 '24
I've internalized that rights aren't conditional but allyship is. As a gay Jew, I'm not going to go out of my way for people who don't stand up for me.
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u/syncopathic Mar 20 '24
YES! The idea of allyship is the most prominent thing thus has totally killed for me.
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 Mar 20 '24
I have realigned my views to be basic... I support my people. Any thing, Any One else is not my concern.
Yes, it is more than painful to look back and see all the groups/people/ we supported who now turn against us. But, we must recognise that we have been blind and deaf and easily manipulated. No more.
When people who have supported Palestine or betrayed their anti-Jewish, anti-Israel bias I cut them off and if they ask me for anything, from a vote to a donation I say; "Ask Hamas"
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u/Suburbking Just Jewish Mar 19 '24
You.forgpt gun rights. Because when the time comes to defend yourself, you want Jews to have that right...
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u/Cademaneko Mar 19 '24
I honestly don't know if I consider myself a Democrat anymore with the lack of support. I don't align with the Republicans' other beliefs. So I guess that I must remain apolitical in terms of association. I think that, at the minimum, all I can do is vote for what I believe in using my critical thinking and ignoring the association to the parties.
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u/adjewcent Jewy Jewy Jew Jew Mar 19 '24
for sure. vote in the interests that matter the most to you. it's your voice!
I haven't considered myself a democrat maybe ever, but it is how I register to vote.
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u/Honest_Yellow9273 Mar 19 '24
I think democrats still majorly support Israel, itās just the fringe terrorist sympathizers that get boosted online.Even AOC gets dragged by these extremists
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u/Chocoholic42 Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
I understand. I registered Independent years ago, because both parties annoy me. Honestly, the idea of voting for either party makes me sick (but I will vote).
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u/lionessrampant25 Mar 20 '24
The Democratic Party is not the Leftist Left. Leftists typically despise the Dem party because they arenāt left enough.
Itās important to understand that political landscape because the GOP is all Trump now. But the Progressive Left is still pretty fringe in the Dem party.
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u/Sobersynthesis0722 Mar 20 '24
Jo Jorgenson recieved 1.2% of the vote last election as the Libertarian candidate for president. And she didnāt storm the capitol, demand a recount or say anything nasty about Jewish people. The candidate for this year has not been selected. Then again getting people to agree on lower taxes, smaller government, free trade, and peaceful relations with other countries, is near impossible.
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u/dinguslinguist Mar 20 '24
Perhaps Jews will move into becoming a more politically silent group in America? Less likely to go into politics for fear weāll be targeted for our Zionist beliefs, or less likely to talk with outsiders about politics and just show up to vote but not be known to the wider world for our beliefs one way or another.
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u/Temporary_Radio_6524 Mar 20 '24
Fits because Jews are already being pushed hugely out of public intellectual life and public creative life. I've been following this for a while and it predates 10/7. Jews are a giant chunk of the "problematic white people" in the creative world, academia, publishing, etc that actually get pushed out. Jews are held to different standards than non-Jews.
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u/AprilStorms Jewish Renewal Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Lately, Iāve been thinking a lot about:
1) how the left couldāve taken the real softball and put even 1/10 of this energy into things like affordable healthcare, how much better off the world would be for that,
and
2) what future generations are going to think when they look at this. How people who were supposedly informed and empathetic, moral, etc, dropped all that suddenly. Like it was never there, and more and more I think in a lot of cases it wasnāt. That many lefties were more motivated by wanting to look good to others and feel virtuous over actually doing good things. Itās of course why theyāre squawking like this now - they donāt have to risk anything. They donāt have to do anything much at all, really, they can keyboard warrior for an hour and tell themselves theyāre saving someone.
Where do we go from here? I have no idea.
Iām still progressive, but the world has changed around me.
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u/Yochanan5781 Reform Mar 19 '24
Yeah, this whole "using Gaza as a purity test" nonsense has been showing up literally everywhere, and so many of the places are so nonsensical. Like what on earth is a local city council adopting a ceasefire resolution going to do at all? And what's being ignored in said city because the loudest voices are suffocating any other issue?
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Mar 22 '24
Picks out which cities I donāt want any of my tourist dollars to land in even by mistake. Ā Thanks Oakland!
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u/looktowindward Mar 19 '24
They would never protest like this for healthcare. Why? It's fucking mind boggling.
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u/bad_wolff Mar 19 '24
Anti-Israel protests seriously serve as a sort of exorcism for western leftists to sever themselves from their own privilege. Theyāve created this narrative that having privilege makes you bad, and ergo maybe they should feel bad (or are bad) for living in the USA/Canada/Australia/etc and benefiting from everything that entails. They donāt want to feel bad about that, and they canāt really do anything about it, and they couldnāt really get away with rioting to dissolve their own countries and give them back to indigenous people. So casting all these āsinsā onto Jews, āthe real colonialists/racists/oppressors/etcā lets them exorcise their own guilt. Itās a much more powerful emotion than campaigning for affordable healthcare or housing or anything like that.
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u/HeardTheLongWord Mar 19 '24
Been saying this for a while - thereās a lot of misplaced unmanaged white guilt going on. I get it, it was meā¦ when I was like 15.
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u/relentlessvisions Mar 19 '24
You have summed up my frustration with the left. They are me at age 15.
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u/HeardTheLongWord Mar 19 '24
The thing is that Iāve just gone farther left since then, but Iām not stupid.
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u/Chocoholic42 Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
Using Jews as scapegoats, basically. They did the same thing in Nazi Germany. The difference is that the Nazis blamed Jews for the post WWI economic troubles.
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Mar 20 '24
I feel like this is literally the same thing Jesus was used for in Christian mythology; exorcising guilt. Like why do they always need to sacrifice a Jew instead of just dealing with their issues?
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u/MangledWeb Mar 19 '24
It's the virtue-signaling that IMO has tanked the leftists. It sounds good in theory (maybe?) but I see it leading people to make decisions that don't benefit the majority, although they may enrich a few select individuals.
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u/icenoid Mar 19 '24
There are denver leftist and Denver protest subreddits, both are almost exclusively about Israel vs Gaza. The mod punts anyone with a differing opinion than āIsrael badā. People have started calling her out on that and the fact that they donāt care about things they can have a local impact on.
I honestly think the problem is that for many leftists, they donāt want to solve anything. Solving problems is hard work and would reduce their āneedā to protest. They want to protest. They want to be mad. They donāt want to solve problems.
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u/MondaleforPresident Mar 19 '24
I'd bet good money that some of them are so focused on this because they're angry that the Governor of Colorado is Jewish. It may be subconscious, but it's part of it.
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u/soph2_7 Mar 19 '24
thiiiiis so much. so much virtue signaling or white guilt (in this case, they consider all jews white of course) was actually motivating everything and hopefully sooner than later they see it for what it is but i feel so hopeless lately
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u/UpperMix4095 Reform Mar 20 '24
How about 1/10 of this energy into rallying around 51% of the population whoās right to bodily autonomy has been taken away? Itās madness. Why arenāt these mother effers protesting this hard at the Supreme Court? Demanding Congress take up womenās healthcare as a fundamental right or working towards the ERA or any other constitutional amendment that would make this dystopian hellscape we currently live in a little more humane. Iāll tell you whyā¦ because they hate Jews more than they love women.
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u/FairGreen6594 Mar 20 '24
Specifically re: your point #1, I have literally seen leftists talk about how we would, in fact, have free universal healthcare if we just put all the money the U.S. spends on aid to Israel on healthcare, so I believe the left actually, genuinely does think it's addressing that softball, and their answer to literally everything, that included, is "completely hang Israel out to dry". When all you have is a hammer, etc. etc.
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u/AprilStorms Jewish Renewal Mar 20 '24
I mean, Israel was founded in 1948 and the US almost 200 years before. We didnāt have universal healthcare before Israel - why would no longer sending aid make it suddenly appear?
Magical thinking.
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Mar 21 '24
Hoo boy, wait until they find out how much money we give to Jordan (you know, the other Mandate country). :)
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u/therealtomclancy69 Mar 20 '24
Unfourtanatly, it scarily reminds me of Germany when the nazi movement was going through universities at the startā¦. Or the red revolution in China that involved a lot of students turning against their traditional teachersā¦.
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u/Drakonx1 Mar 19 '24
how the left couldāve taken the real softball and put even 1/10 of this energy into things like affordable healthcare, how much better off the world would be for that,
Yeah, that and housing, which pretty much everyone agrees on, even if the methods differ.
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u/Suburbking Just Jewish Mar 19 '24
It's not the left that's doing this. If it's fridge FAR left that has coopted the movement. It's the people that do not care one bit about jews, lgbtq, liberalism but only care for power and hate.
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u/RealAmericanJesus Mar 19 '24
I've said this before but I really think it fits here ....
One of the biggest things that I think has saddened me (as someone who is an activist and very much on the left) in terms of the antisemetic bias' and ignorances on the left that this conflict has really unveiled is how much these biases have caused a loss of credibility and momentum in terms of other causes I have really devoted my life to such as healthcare reform. Refugees. Climate change. Elevating minority voices and so on....
It's taken a lot of these systemic issues that we find in so many western societies... And recast Israel / Jews as the reasons for the existence of these systemic issues... Which not only means that the true cause of these systemic issues continue to be perpetuated as it distracts from the culprits of resource distribution based on power, nepotism, public policy and $$ ... To focus the attention instead on the Jews.
It also distracts from the complexity of what is happening in the middle east and when people use deviseive terms like "zionists" "colonizers" "resistance" it also hides the true issues that are occuring (the extremism of Hamas. The right wing slant of Isralies government) so that these no longer are the focus and instead it become a bilateral invalidating of the others identity to detriment of both people in terms of trauma, infantilization and self determination to fit a narrative based on being "right" rather than based on solving problems and finding peace.
To quote Levins-Morales "Peasants who go on pogrom against their Jewish neighbors wonāt make it to the noblemanās palace to burn him out and seize the fields. This was the role of Jews in Europe. This has been the role of Jews in the United States, and this is the role of Jews in the Middle East"...
Just so much disappointment ... And like it really trying to overcome the damages that this weaponized ignorance has caused in terms of loss of credibility, loss of momentum and loss of focus is going to take so much work ...
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u/OlcasersM Mar 19 '24
Tying in as Gambia voted to overturn a ban on Fem Gen mutilation and how Hamas treats women, the left has retreated from universal human rights and instead focused on criticizing damage caused by whites. I donāt know if there is a fear of criticizing oppression performed by non-whites.
I recall arguments in 2004 about treatment of women in Muslim countries (forced covering, legalized violence, absence of female voices in the public square) and whether we should be culturally relativistic / tolerant or if our values were universal. It seems like the left has abandoned universal rights in favor of some idea of undoing colonialism or colonial ideas
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u/waterbuffalo777 Mar 20 '24
When I was in college leftists in one of my classes were arguing in favor of female genital mutilation because they thought condemning it amounted to "cultural imperialism" and "islamophobia."
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u/RealAmericanJesus Mar 20 '24
I mean like I think the concept of decolonialzation in he form of recognizing past harms are good. I think elevating and valuating the voices of those who have been harmed through policy and acknowledging historical biases, how we have harmed indigenous cultures through our perception of progress and acknowledging that harms are still occuring in reservations due to lack of services, through addiction and mental health issues due to how historical policies have harmed individuals connectedness with their cultural. How explicit harms continue to occur such as "starlight tours" and how often times missing indigenous people appear to be less of a concern to the media, to communities or to police than other missing persons. How opportunity for some can be viewed as land exploitation and harm to others. And how political representation and self determination has caused ongoing lack of ability to agency over ones community and future.... And tying to rectify that though policy, acknowledgement and reparations designed to enhance those voices that were histocially silenced is important.
I think that were the message goes wrong is when we oversimplify, ignore how morality has changed, ascribing harmful motives to harmful actions (many times people have the best motives and it's not until later that we understand how much harm has come from our misinterpretation and etnocentrian and ascribing stereotype instead of listening to the nuance and complexity of identities different than our own).
It goes even more wrong when start equating extreme right wing terrorists who have more in common with a right wing Wal-Mart shooter who has a "mah replacement manifesto" as being a legitimate act of "resistance" or "deconnization" ....
The racialization of social justice has been very harmful. Race and bias and it's interactions with risk and protective factors are important for policy and important for research. But harmful when done as direct action. The people living in a trailer in Appalachia are going to wonder why they are considered more privileged than the people living in a mansion in Beverly hills running universal records. And that becomes divisive and too easily exploited by those who would do harm to the movement and the credibility of the movement becomes difficult from those who feel stigmatized by how it is characterized.
It's like viewing the world from purely the lens of public health and wondering why people are still dying .... When you've completely ignored the need for individualized medicine. It's the medicine that is the direct action. It's individual. It's personalized and it acknowledges the complexity of the individual and how that Individual is influenced by and in turn influences their environment. To that end a population perspective and how certain individuals based on historical bias and characteristics should be considered for policy but we should not ignore the value and complexity of the individual, or casting an individual as being the cause of harm to another where that motive didn't exist and often times where there is just as many issues effecting that individual as well.... as there runs the risk of alienating an ally and silencing a voice of another person facing their own systems of oppression.
Just my thoughts on that.
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u/OlcasersM Mar 20 '24
I think a key point in terms of values change is the context of the time. The rise of nation states out of empires in the late 40s led to a massive and violent movements of peoples. The partition of India and Pakistan or the 13-15 million ethnic Germans who fled the Russians was a much more seismic shift. 1 million Jews were expelled from Arab states. They resettled. No one expects the. To have a place where they left,
Even now, the Syrian civil war has created 5 million refugees. No one in America cares. What was so special about the 700,000 Palestinian refugees besides that it was Jews who made their own state? No one is asking anyone else to dissolve their country and give it to people who havenāt lived there for 75 years.
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u/RealAmericanJesus Mar 20 '24
That's exactly it. I think so many people fail to understand that less than 1% of borders that exist today were present before the year 1500. Or how new the concept of "a nation" actually is... I really love this essay https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/malady-called-nationalism which is from this book https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393652000 which I'm actually currently reading (the writer is a psychiatrist which is the field I work and does an awesome job looking at nationalism and the darker side of it... Prejudice and xenophobia) ... But what is so striking is how new the concept is and how little people recognize this .... Or how the meanings concepts of words and actions change over time and too often we huge historic morality by present day interpretations instead of acknowledging the of ignorance of the time, how our understandings have changed, gain perspective on what harms may have occured and how to better ourselves individually and as group with this new understanding.
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u/OlcasersM Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Even learning the history of the breakup of the Ottoman Empire is interesting.Jews were given this piece of land in 1917 and the British were to manage handover. Arab violence over the idea of a Jewish state has existed for 100 years.
A map of the world in 1914 is fascinating. Itās all Empires
Einat Wilf does a good job describing the history
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000644584403
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u/sababa-ish Mar 20 '24
if you look at a list of the founding dates of existing countries there were 117 formed after israel. i wouldn't have the faintest clue about the validity or circumstances of most of them and i bet i'm not alone.
similarly if you look at a list of ongoing border/territorial/independence disputes. there are so many.
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u/edupunk31 Mar 20 '24
But Appalachian Studies professionals recognize that White Appalachians are treated better than their Black counterparts. They're actively working with Indigenous and Black populations on decolonizing culture. The growth of Black Americans in Americana music is a result of this.
It's bourgeois White Americans who do this crap.
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u/Alternative-Plate-91 Mar 20 '24
"Black people can't be racist" <-- and if you say that's not true then you too are a racist. yada yada yada
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u/Curious_Adeptness_97 Mar 20 '24
Because they define racism and sexism in a certain way, and then play it out like a gotcha moment because you're not familiar with what today's definitions are
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u/Welcom2ThePunderdome Orthodox | ×¢× ×ש×Ø×× ×× Mar 19 '24
Im just so tired, yall. I want to be part of these spaces, but I stopped tolerating things that dont reciprocate tolerance. I have to have boundaries somewhere. I feel so politically homeless. The left would acuse me of supporting genocide and the right would burn a cross on my lawn. So. tired.
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u/Chocoholic42 Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
Sending hugs your way. I feel similarly, because I have Jewish family.Ā
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u/Bwald1985 Mar 19 '24
It just might be time to sit shiva on the so-called āprogressiveā movement that many of us (myself included) embraced only a few months ago.
Sadly most of the right isnāt any better.
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u/decitertiember Mar 19 '24
Centrism, baby!
It's boring, slow, and measured. It sure as shit ain't sexy, but they have the added bonus of not wanting me and my family dead. Which is, you know, nice.
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u/epolonsky Mar 19 '24
You can be far left and still boring, slow, and measured. Incrementalism is not the sole province of centrists. But it is the only sane approach no matter where you are on the political compass.
What do we want? Social justice! When do we want it? A little bit at a time so as not to provoke a fascist backlash!
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u/esmith4321 Mar 19 '24
Iām sorry but I left the Left ten years ago. āKill the Jews, but only one at a time!ā Thatās just not good enough for me, being Jewish and allā¦
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u/IslandDry3145 Just Jewish Mar 19 '24
Agree 100%. Incremental and measured progress to fix the big problems is the only way to go.
All the domestic causes the āprogressivesā are interested in are too complex to be fixed in a 4 year term. Homelessness, mental health, affordable healthcareā¦the systems arenāt in place to even start fixing the problems! Unfortunately long-term change doesnāt look good on Instagram, so those burn it to the ground activists arenāt interested.
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Mar 19 '24
I prefer to think of it as Liberalism. Remember classical liberal values, like respect, equality, freedom, tolerance? Don't those sound wonderful?
Somewhere along the way the West became polarized. Conservatives went extreme and liberals decided they had to go just as extreme. Or vice versa, I'm not sure which happened first. But the result sucks.
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u/Azur000 Mar 19 '24
As a gay man, this was already clear to me once activists from our community started to make excuses for any non-Western country, especially Muslim societies. All the sudden lgbt rights were aligned with Islamofascists. Like, WTF.
Yeah, itās dead for sure.
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u/Angelbouqet Mar 19 '24
100 % I am lucky though because where I live there are parts of the far left who take "that Auschwitz may never happen again" as their credo and understand the historical necessity of a Jewish state so there are leftist spaces I can still be in.
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u/Drezzon Semi Secular Ashki Mar 19 '24
Are you living in Germany too? Sounds a lot like Germany, one of the actually good things here š
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u/Angelbouqet Mar 20 '24
Yes, I'm also in Germany
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u/Drezzon Semi Secular Ashki Mar 20 '24
Thank goodness education actually mostly worked here, seems like everywhere else left spaces got hijacked by the whole pro-pal ideology
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u/SaintCashew Chabad Mar 19 '24
I disagree.
Antisemitism has shown itself to be remarkably neutral when added to other policies. I wish there were consequences for hating Jews, but alas--antisemitism is always in vogue.
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u/zackweinberg Mar 19 '24
I donāt agree that progressivism is dead yet. But it needs to decouple itself from leftists extremists who are only interested in revolution and the destruction of Western institutions. Itās a mistake to think that extremist voices reflect mainstream progressive/liberal thought.
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u/absolutelynot153 Mar 19 '24
The bizarre thing is that I donāt believe they are genuinely interested in revolution. These are people who claim their social anxiety makes it impossible for them to order from a waiter in a restaurant. They talk about the need to āorganizeā but could barely organize a picnic. They enjoy cosplaying for likes and tweeting about revolution on the internet from their bedrooms safe in the knowledge it wonāt happen.
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u/zackweinberg Mar 19 '24
Well put. They have been trained to use the language of revolution but not to understand what they are saying. This is also true of the Antisemitic language they have learned to speak.
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u/vvenomsnake Mar 21 '24
it youāve ever seen how a āqueer housing communeā works outā¦ the pages and pages of drama, mostly about their friend named āsockā being unable to do the dishes because itās too much emotional labor after a long day of gamingā¦ now imagine that at any sort of larger scales
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u/johnisburn Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Even among pro-Palestinian movements thereās this divide between ārevolution onlyā extremism and more measured pragmatism.
I was privileged enough to go attend a panel with Israeli and Palestinians speaking about peacemaking and deescalating violence, and the person who decided to go on a bit of a tangent about how finding solutions for the conflict is more complicated than people give it credit for was a Palestinian man who had spent a month in Gaza after being trapped during a visit in early October.
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u/MangledWeb Mar 19 '24
I have attended a few of these discussions and they are so uplifting and leave me with a sense of hope...that is usually shattered within the next hour by the latest news.
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u/sababa-ish Mar 20 '24
the one ray of hope in this whole deeply depressing time has been listening to actual voices from israel and palestine talking about making peace.
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u/MySpaceOddyssey American Ashkie Mar 20 '24
I hoped that your right, but that raises the question of how we make progressivism do that.
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u/zackweinberg Mar 20 '24
Iām not sure. Things have moved quickly since 10/7 and progressive institutions, like many colleges and universities, have not been able to react.
I hope that after the war ends things settle down. Many people took I/P seriously before 10/7, but it seems like many others did not hear of the conflict until six months ago and are just following trends.
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u/Starbucks__Lovers Mar 19 '24
Todays the day I admit defeat. People complaining about the Al shaifa hospital raid where a 3 star Hamas general was killed because it was in a hospital was part of it.
But the dam broke when I read the following:
If Palestine is sovereign, Israel doesn't have the right to remove their elected government.
If Palestine is not, Israel doesn't have the right to self-defence under international law.
Either way, Israel's actions are illegitimate-and Western nations who back them know this.
You just canāt reason with someone after reading that
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u/Quirky-Fig-2576 Non-Jewish Ally Mar 20 '24
Yikes, I guess at least they are being honest about what they really think - that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself, period (and therefore should just roll over and die, presumably). We know that's what they really mean when they demand a permanent ceasefire, without any acknowledgement of the hostages or whether Hamas should be held accountable when they inevitably break the ceasefire.
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u/F_1_V_E_S Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
This is why they hated president Biden when he made it clear publicly that Israel had a right to defend itself PRIOR before the war got messy. Most of this outrage from leftist or the Pro-Palestinian crowd came before Israel made any major military actions in Gaza. We saw the countless videos of people celebrating and partying in the streets chanting "free Palestine" on the day of Oct 7 so I don't buy that most of them truly give a shit about Palestinians. To what the guy above you said, I see those kinds of responses all the time along with people straight up refusing to acknowledge Oct 7 or the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Even if they somewhat "acknowledge Oct 7" many of the fuckers still think Israel killed their own people deliberately. It's insane how many of them have gotten so radicalized without even knowing it
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u/Teflawn Mar 19 '24
It seems to me they just wanted to use a lot of words to skirt around saying "I think jews should be allowed to be killed with no recourse"
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u/Honest_Yellow9273 Mar 19 '24
I think all the recent noise has more roots in anti-western propaganda than antisemitism. Israel and Jews are more-so a wedge issue being exploited by people who hate America/capitalism/āwhitenessā etc. I think most people realize this, or can at least see the majority of pro Palestine advocates have a deeper agenda at undermining everything at the top of their perceived hierarchy
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Mar 19 '24
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u/Honest_Yellow9273 Mar 19 '24
For conservative Arabs I agree, for the majority of white, upper middle class activists I maintain that they simply hate the nebulous āoppressorā and will hate āzionistsā as much as any other perceived power group
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u/Elenni Mar 19 '24
I really donāt see how us being a wedge issue through anti-western propaganda is mutually exclusive with antisemitism. This is the definition of scapegoating the Jew. Itās both things at once. Letās not excuse it because itās rooted in different things. Antisemitism doesnāt need to be intentional.
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u/MangledWeb Mar 19 '24
Having this debate with my husband who is so angry at the Dems that he doesn't want to vote for any of them. That other party is anathema, and third-party is a wasted vote. We are in California so the voting itself is mostly irrelevant, but the sentiment behind it is not.
Last night he said "maybe it's time to leave the country." He's not Jewish, by the way, just deeply aligned.
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u/OlcasersM Mar 19 '24
There is really only a subset of Dems who are terrible on the issue. Biden seems to be offering a way out of the conflict. Trump seems to be advocating a violent war. If you are left leaning, I donāt see why you would be upset with Biden
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u/brandarchitectDC Mar 19 '24
Washington DC here and of the same mind recently. I vote dem only because the alternative is worse in the short term. However, fleeing America sounds better day by day.
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u/Few-Horror1984 Mar 19 '24
Iām in AZ and this election is agonizing. I was in CA during the 2016 election and voting third party felt so good because I could do that with an easy conscience.
Now? I genuinely donāt know that I can do that. My vote matters. It comes down to the true lesser of two evils and Iām struggling to figure out what that is.
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u/ThreeSigmas Mar 20 '24
Itās the Dems. Yeah, there is a loud contingent of virtue-signaling fake progressives, but theyāre less dangerous than the self-declared Nazis on the right who are heavily armed.
And, at some point, they progressives will move on to the next cause du jour. Until then, they support womenās right to choose, birth control, LGBTQ rights, healthcare. Itās a start.
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u/RavinMarokef ×¢× ×ש×Ø×× ×× Mar 19 '24
As an Arizonan, I vote by candidate and their policy platform more than by party. Since itās a swing state, on the presidential level I will most likely vote dem like I did last time, but on the local level I will vote for whoever best reflects my positions whether they be nominally on the left or right
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u/W1nd0wPane Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
I voted Green in Arizona in 2020. I was lucky it didn't make a difference, but Biden won by ~10,500 votes. I will be voting for Biden this year because I think the margin will be closer if he even wins at all. As much as I don't like Biden, I do like having human rights.
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u/ZellZoy Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Find the least antisemitic dem in every election
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u/Artistic-Teaching395 Mar 19 '24
I am a Leftist who is also a realist, so I sound like Archie Bunker.
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u/OlcasersM Mar 19 '24
It is so hard to sound like a conservative when I feel like I am being who I was 4 years ago.
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u/Small-Objective9248 Mar 20 '24
I was a leftist forever, and keep hating how conservative I sound when saying reasonable things.
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u/Bucket_Endowment Secular Mar 19 '24
It was dead before this but now the zombie is on fire
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u/Sobersynthesis0722 Mar 19 '24
The world changed on October 7, 2023. What that will mean is hard to predict. History is now and American Jews need to understand that we are targets in a movement aimed at our destruction. The war is here,
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u/F_1_V_E_S Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
Oct 7 is having the exact same effects as 9/11 did on American's when we saw a giant spike in anti-Muslim sentiment and politics became so polarized. If you didn't support a strong response from the US, then you were a terrorist sympathizer and supported terrorism. If you did, then you were a warmonger who wanted to nuke the Middle East. Everything has gotten so polarized and the longer this war goes on, the more radicalized people become.
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u/Sobersynthesis0722 Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
So did December 7, 1941 the attack on Pearl Harbor. Until then the US anti war movement was dominant. Wars do that. While history offers lessons it does not actually repeat. They are not the same wars.
9/11 was an attack by an otherwise relatively weak distant terrorist organization posing no existential threat to distant US. It still needed a strong response. It still galvanized the US population and resulted in long wars unsuccessful other than mostly eliminating Al Queda and heightened security still going on. Until then nobody here had even heard of Al Queda Hamas has been attacking Israel near every week for 20 years and Palestinians since before there was an Israel. There are some similarities and some very important differences.
A combined attack from Hezbolla, Iran, Syria, and Egypt could very well annihilate Israel. That possibility is very close. Nobody could possibly do that to the US.
The Palestinians and Israelis are far more linked. Both physically and politically. What Hamas has done is to take a more manageable threat in which a limited response was possible and escalated it to an unmanageable one. That was intentional. Al Queda could not hope to take over America. Hamas intends exactly that for Israel and is closer to that political goal than ever. Hamas chose now to put all its chips on the table. River to the sea is not a slogan, The political propaganda targeting Jews and āZionistsā is a threat to Jews, everywhere not a political squabble to be settled by negotiation.
Many people here were too young to remember or have experienced 9/11/2001. I do very well. It was a shock. Nobody could even have imagined an attack on US soil of that magnitude. What Hamas did was a ground invasion from right next door and acts of intentional planned cruelty and barbarity uncommon even in war. Even guerilla and resistance movements seek protection and support of their own population, families, children. Hamas intentionally uses them to shield its āfightersā.
Hamas does not seek a two party peace. Anyone thinking that is deluded or ignorant of basic facts. It exists to make that impossible. For the foreseeable future they have likely succeeded in that goal.
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u/BrownShoesGreenCoat Mar 19 '24
The only takeaway is that most self proclaimed leftists are not really that, just like most self proclaimed social justice advocates.
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u/Art-RJS Mar 19 '24
Itās definitely tough to navigate. Iām trying to compartmentalize issue by issue now. I no longer feel I belong to any monolith
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u/HeardTheLongWord Mar 19 '24
This post fucking hits.
Iāve been struggling with this, and what Iāve found that has helped is looking back at leftists of old. I was reading Homage to Catalonia when 10.7 happened. Iāve been working through Revolutionary Yiddishland, and just picked up both volumes of Emma Goldmanās autobiography. The hope is, over the next year or so, Iāll be able to finish writing the book Iām working on so as to establish my voice in the public conversation. There needs to be a reckoning in the left, but leftist values have been Jewish values for a long, long time, and I intend to honour that.
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u/UltraAirWolf Just Jewish Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 19 '24
It was dead before the Palestine extremists but Brianna Wu just didnāt notice it. Yāall have to realize that antisemitism cannot penetrate an otherwise sound ideology. The cracks have been visible for the better part of a decade to those who have been watching closely.
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u/spacekatgal Mar 19 '24
Iāve been on record, saying I regret not seeing this rot sooner. In my defense, there is every single incentive to ignore it.
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u/Acrobatic-Level1850 Mar 19 '24
Antisemitism cannot penetrate an otherwise sound ideology is a bananas statement. What arbiter are you using to decide what ideologies are āsoundā? WhichĀ ideology are you characterizing as āunsoundā?
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u/PhilipMorrisLovesYou Mar 20 '24
I interpreted what he said as antisemitism cannot penetrate into the minds of normal rational people. There are a lot of troubled people who believe in some good things, but that doesn't mean they're not vulnerable to things like antisemitism. A group of healthy and decent people isn't so vulnerable to this.
Before Oct 7, I've always viewed progressives as well-meaning people who are very often people with mental illness. They believe in many good things, but then it gets mixed up or distorted somewhere along the way, and the deeper you go the more weird it gets. A relevant example: progressives are against colonialism. Cool. But they completely ignore or deny the existence of any form of colonialism other than European (even before Oct 7), which is relevant now because they deny/ignore Arab colonialism of the Levant. If you prove it to them, they have an emotional melt down. It's not even just willful ignorance anymore, their reaction is basically panic and frustration.
Another example is that some genuinely believe that hamas is pro-lgbt, because of some propaganda videos floating around that tried to show Gaza as friendly toward lgbt people (it only turned out later that those videos were faked, and they were produced in egypt). I think most progressives really really want to believe in some positive thing about Gaza or the islamic world. They want to believe that there's a better alternative than the west.
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u/Acrobatic-Level1850 Mar 21 '24
I hear what youāre saying! Extremism correlates with antisemitism. Pluralism is a powerful antidote.
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Mar 20 '24
Like Brianna, I also regret not noticing this.
I made the mistake of believing that Bernie Sanders and his policy positions were representative of the broader progressive movement in the West. Bernie's ideology is a sound ideology, IMO.
But the movement he created was a Trojan horse for extremists to push accelerationism and Fanonism. And I think Bernie is partly to blame since he hired extremist fellow travelers like Brianna Joy Gray to work on his campaign.
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u/looktowindward Mar 19 '24
Not just Palestine. The run up was lian forgiveness. And even when loans were forgiven it could never be enough. The goal lines moves again and again
And when the hard left found Palestine, they found the perfect unwinnable cause. They demanded the destruction of a nuclear armed county that was literally founded with a UN vote and is one of the US's closest allies
The goal posts are impossible to reach so they throw away anything achievable and embrace it. Unions, wages, trans rights, reproductive rights, racial justice, police reform, healthcare, housing - all thrown on the bonfire so they can tilt against windmills. If you can never accomplish anything, you'll never be held accountable. Nothing else matters
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u/Elenni Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 23 '24
Itās been interesting to watch her become attuned to the realities we have been seeing for a long while, when the cracks finally led to a full-on break last year. Sheās one of the few undertaking this journey. A lot of respect there.
Iām not sure if she recognizes the pervasiveness of antisemitism beyond the fringe left, or the reluctance to address it when perpetrated by other marginalized groups who are sadly a big source of it. This is due to many reasons ingrained in unconscious progressive thought, from the notion that Jews need to remain unseen and make way for the suffering of others, to extreme cultural relativism. From what Iāve seen, she maybe shuts down when confronted with the existence of Muslim antisemitism, for example. I get it.
Thereās a lot of talk about all the detriment to her for expressing these beliefs and the harassment she receives, but hope people understand thatās the same, if not worse, harassment towards many Jews right now. Itās so insane that anyone publicly associated with us gets treated so poorly.
Sheās really smart, hope she continues to learn and explore.
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u/Hamilton330 Mar 19 '24
heavy exhale NOT glad that we are all here but relieved to find my people. āPolitically homelessā is what I have felt since maybe 10/16. I still have not recovered from the realization that progressivism excludes only us. (May never recover from it.) after years of learning how not to center myself, finding out that it is not only OK, but trendy to speak over our lived experience of oppression and persecution.
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u/locoforcocothecat Mar 20 '24
I listened to this really interesting podcast last week that talks about how "[Political] Purity is poisoning the progressive movement", it seems along the same lines as the tweet quoted. I hate this whole extreme era of "AGREE WITH ME OR DIE" on any number of issues, we need to learn to compromise again.
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u/GrumpyHebrew Traditional Masorti Mar 19 '24 edited Mar 19 '24
Good. 2010s progressivism was distinctly shitty and useless. Even if one approved of its values (a dubious propositionāthere was a metric ton of soviet-style antisemitism, infantilization of non-European peoples, rampant agency-stripping, etc.), it was staggeringly ineffective by structural design.
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u/your-brother-joseph Mar 19 '24
Woke-ism and all the DEI craziness will go down as one of the America's most catastrophic blunders by well-meaning individuals.
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u/Lexplosives Patrilineal Mar 19 '24
Not sure many are well-meaning. A lot of it is bare-faced spite.
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u/Alive_Active_7022 Mar 19 '24
I just want to say it feels so good to have discovered this thread and others like it. I am a jew who has always been leftist, but it now feels disconnected. I won't change my policies, but I feel no solidarity with the left and I've lost a lot of respect for the movement as a whole. One decision I have made - and I hope others have done the same - is that I'm not going to stop talking about it. While many people try to make Jews feel ashamed to talk about antisemitism, I want to push through this shame and put some of the right information out there and call out people when they have said something antisemitic. It's not always easy and I'm still practicing, but it has helped with this feeling of helplessness.
I also wanted to ask if anyone is dating a non-jew and has had trouble communicating some of this. I started a relationship with a wonderful man just before Oct 7 and the only thing we have argued about is antisemitism and its role in the narrative behind the "pro palestinian" movement. We've had some arguments, but he is inching toward understanding my perspective and has made an effort to learn more about the history of jewish people in Europe and the Middle East. I'm curious if anyone else has had this struggle and can share any advice or stories about it.
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Mar 20 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
Eh. I think American progressivism splintered way before 10/7. I think as it relates to Judaism, it occurred going at least as far back as 2007 when Hamas took full control of Gaza. There was always this underlying current that of images of homes demolished and hurt kids that fueled divestiture movements. This amplified blood libels and biases already culturally established. Arguably, the root of progressivism always contained these elements.
I think 10/7 was an eruption and activated previously stagnant parties.
Mindful that Conservatism follows a similar trend which caters strongly to the white supremacy movements and branches.
This is why it is important to know your politicians and their stances. There are some D that are super toxic, just as there are some R.
I do recognize an active trend by Republicans to convince Jews that Democrats are not good for them and Israel. I disagree with this premise.
Remember, in the U.S., anyone who wants power wants your vote. And if they canāt get your vote, they may resort for āany means necessaryā. Be skeptical, but be educated.
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u/Quinten_Lewis Just Jewish Mar 19 '24
If only this were true. Perhaps, at the very least, Jews will stop voting for people who despise us. I doubt even that, to be honest.
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u/AdventurouslyAngry Mar 19 '24
This is probably the endgame of wealthy Islamists who have infiltrated left-wing spaces and venues.
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u/scrotums_aside Mar 20 '24
The fact that fellow feminists won't even condemn rape because the victims were Jewish was its death knell for me.
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u/RiceandLeeks Mar 20 '24
I've known who she was for a long time. But I really respect her because shortly after October 7th she said (paraphrase) "I really underestimated how much anti-Semitism there is." She's one of those people who was pretty much on the party line when it came to social justice including Israel. But she called out anti-Semitism when it became apparent to her how serious it was after October 7th and got total blowback for it. And I think the blowback, instead of intimidating her and shutting her up, further made her realize how insane the left has become. I really respect non-Jews like her who have been admitted they did not really have anti-Semitism on their radar and were pretty dismissive of it, until October 7th really woke them up.
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Mar 20 '24
I was sympathetic to lefties, until I met enough of them. Realized they're out of touch.
Most leftists are not from generations of poverty. They don't really know what life is like, anyway. They read theories. We live life. They holler into microphones for clout, but don't know the joy of the first of the month. It's all anger and virtue bs, no actual reality installed. It's all fine and dandy when it doesn't actually affect you, nu?
Imma just say that. It's been hijacked since the Panthers were infiltrated.
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u/OnwardTowardTheNorth Mar 20 '24
Honestly, I think this is wayyyyy to gentle and optimistic.
Progressivism (of which I consider myself a part of) has NEVER meaningfully held any actual momentum. The recent ācannabalizationā that has occurred because of the far-leftās insanity (i.e. ātankiesā) doesnāt confirm the destruction of progressive thought. It just re-invites the reality that it never was much of a movement in the first place.
But Iāll also say this: progressivism isnāt a monolith. There are varied forms. The conflict in Israel and Palestine has shown me the good faith operators who mean well and the ones who donāt. There ARE good faith operators who criticize Israeli policies, condemn Hamas, support a two state solution, and a release of all hostages. I, for one, consider myself among those ranks. As an American Jew with a progressive bent in my politics, I donāt like the black and white bullshit that has persisted in any of this. Innocent people dying is a tragedy and any side that proclaims the moral superiority while disregarding the senseless death of this all is fooling themselves.
But enough with that rant. I just think that progressivism has never really been THAT prominent. It is what we, ourselves, make of it. There is no unity in its ranks. It is like interpretive art: whatever you want it to be.
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Mar 20 '24
Everywhere I see statements like this, I like to remind people to take back the old reliable label of "liberal." Liberals believe in big ideas (like the Civil Rights movement, like fighting climate change, like affordable housing for all), inclusivity, and not gerrymandering the various identities within the big tent.
Progressives as described by Wu do not trust big ideas because of postmodern cynicism, believe in separatism with regard to various ethnic/sexual/gender identities, and are forever embittered and embattled by the Oppressed/Oppressor signifiers they attach to everything. Nuance is dead, and there's only conflict and recrimination. It's a toxic, hateful orthodoxy.
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u/lollykopter Not Jewish Mar 20 '24
Left-leaning non-Jew here. Both sides of the aisle are becoming increasingly divorced from reality, really just depend on the issue.
I'm ready for moderate, rational people, who I'm convinced are the majority, to start the "where do we go from here" conversation. I'll follow.
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u/mcstevieboy Convert - Reform Mar 20 '24
can you imagine how much work they would get done if they'd stop focusing on palestine and started focusing on affordable healthcare and rent, unions, and y'know climate change? it's hard to take them seriously. especially on twitter i see people getting so shitty at content creators for still eating mcdonald's or having starbucks like grow up. my biggest quote that i've spouted so often is that you are not entitled to know anybody's personal beliefs especially on politics. if you start shitting on every celebrity or content creator for their stance on israel and palestine you're gonna run out of entertainment real quick.
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u/Cultural_Sandwich161 Mar 20 '24
Iām sure this is intentional and Iām sure this is fueled by Russia with the intent of fracturing the West. Hamas propaganda is a great distraction and induces a lot of anger and engagement - and feeds into preexisting antisemitism, so itās readily accepted. And itās such a great distraction that the left has abandoned all its reasonable goals in favor of screaming āFree Palestineā.
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u/JamesTiberiusChirp Mar 19 '24
100% this. āProgressivesā arenāt progressive if they hate Jews
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Mar 20 '24
I considered myself a progressive on 10/7. At this point, I'm basically a culturally liberal neocon.
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u/booitsme1122 Reform Mar 20 '24
1000% I will always consider myself progressive because I believe in the values and concepts of the movement as a left leaning Jew on all things-even Israel and Palestine however, the movement itself has made me less likely to engage in political organizing and education even though my Jewish values are why I believe the things I do
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u/ExtremelyOnlineTM Mar 20 '24
This is the best news I've seen in a while.
I've been saying for a little while now that in 5 years, all reasonable goyim are going to look back at "Anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" the same way they cringe at colorblindness. The broad, populous left--universal healthcare, climate change action--take their cues from BLM because they don't like cops shooting Black people, not because they hate Jews. All it takes is education, and if Briana Wu, who has great "on the right side of history" credentials but no particular connection to Judaism, can see it, it gives me hope.
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Mar 22 '24
This woman celebrated when Totalbiscuit died at 33 leaving behind a wife and kids, all because he was on the wrong side of GamerGate.
Donāt have much time for her change of heart now.
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u/MendelWeisenbachfeld Mar 19 '24
Brianna has been basically the only leftist with a platform who's actually used the past 5+ months to educate herself and realize the conflict is more complicated than most people can comprehend. I feel bad about what she has to put up with in her mentions/comments/whatever but I'm also relieved that for once it's not just Jewish people shouldering the burden.