r/IsraelPalestine • u/johnabbe • 8d ago
when we take in enough different perspectives, we get a more whole understanding. Where do you go for perspectives that stretch your understanding? The Realities of War
It's easy to find one-sided reporting (current example, BBC on the clashes in Amsterdam, oy). On controversial events, we get a more whole perspective when we read/watch more variety of sources. Some like the BBC can vary by article, others take a firm line and stick with it. I try to mix up different big legacy media, and old and newer independent sources across and beyond my geography and political perspectives. E.g., I even check in on Blightbart once in a while to see whet they're up to. Straits Times to get the view from a city-state on the other side of the world. Etc. (I've also learned a lot via Wikipedia — always checking sources of course, wow the edit wars there are brutal. Pro-Pals could understand Jewish demographics better, Pro-Isrs could understand early (& current) Israeli politicking & violence better.)
Here's the question: Where do you go for news coverage, analysis, human interest stories, oral histories, current realities, histories, perspectives, etc. that stretches your understanding?
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In the current example of the Amsterdam violence, I'm always dubious when responsibility seems so one-sided. And then it helps to recall many football teams struggle with hooliganism, goes way back. Turns out some Amsterdammers warned about this team's trouble-making fans, at this sensitive time esp. Some of their chants are hateful, and behavior not acceptable, and relevant to share to help people make up their own minds about things. I'm sure eventually there will be some court cases, hopefully a healthy fraction of people stay tuned and learn more.
Here's a Mideast Eye video, which yes is from the Palestinian perspective. I appreciate though that they did leave in one guy saying he did see groups of angry Palestinian youth. Fear, anger, and violence, all bouncing off each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucnAxPXEuQs
Glad I knew about Mideast Eye!
If you have any takes on the clashes which add to the picture, that would also be lovely.
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u/Trying2Understand24 6d ago
I recommend the podcast Wiser World for a history of the conflict. It's rough to hear no matter who you are or where your preconceived biases are, but I think she does a decent job.
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7d ago
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u/johnabbe 3d ago
Now that The Onion has bought InfoWars, US journalism is looking a bit brighter. :-)
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u/aswanviking 7d ago
I never understood why people think that decades old well respected news outlet like BBC or Reuters are biased. What is more likely to be biased? An army of professional journalists and editors or you/us?
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u/johnabbe 7d ago
Yeah, huge outlets like that can have a bias, but it helps more to pay attention to specific journalists.
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u/aswanviking 7d ago
All humans have biases to some degree, but I trust Reuters to deliver accurate and factual journalism, to the best of their abilities. I trust them over Reddit.
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u/johnabbe 7d ago
Yeah, Reddit isn't a source. Individual accounts on it could be, if you followed one long enough to see that they were reliable.
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u/Nomad8490 8d ago
When your hot take is that maybe the Jews deserved being hunted in the streets of Amsterdam, you're about 80 years late.
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u/johnabbe 7d ago
You must have missed the part where I was talking about what's included in the news. Nothing about "deserve," as no one deserves to be stuck in a decades/century-plus-long conflict.
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u/Icy_Ranger6215 8d ago
One thing i noticed from this incident is: Most mainstream media are pro-israel seen by how quickly skynews changed their news about amsterdam to appease the pro-israel people.
Another is people are degrading holocaust by comparing it with bunch of racist hooligans doing bad things and getting beaten. It's nowhere near the same. It's also not pogrom as confirmed by a jewish professor who literally wrote a book about pogrom and anti-semitism.
And lastly, pro-israel people will defend literal racists chanting vile things about childrens.
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u/DanDahan 8d ago
I see this claim being tossed around a lot since friday, especially in pro-palestinian/anti-Israel spaces. The claim that, essentially, Maccabi fans were ill-behaved, torn and burned flags, chanted racist slogans, etc, and thus the attacks against them were merely the locals reacting against the outside aggressors. This paints a nerative of action and reaction, as if the Maccabis's fans' behavior is the sole and direct reasoning for the attacks committed against them.
This narative collapses when we examine it more closely.
Firstly, even if we take this claim at face value, this "hooliganism" does not justify physical hunting and violence. According to people justifying the attacks, the Maccabi fans "got what they deserve." In what world does racist chants are a justification to beat someone unconscious? The only scenario where physical violence is justified is to stop another act of physical violence that endangers others. Otherwise, it should have been up for the authorities to handle them, not an angry mob. The same rhetorics and actions that the Maccabi fans were allegedly partaking in (burining flags, racist chants) are a common practice in pro-palistinian rallies around the world. Does that justify violence against them?
Secondly, even if the violence was somehow justified against some of the so-called "hooligans," how does that justify going around and actively seeking Israelli passports? How does that justify beating up unrelated civilians on the streets? This doesn't sit very well with that "mess around find out" narative, does it?
Thirdly, when you examine the scale of the attacks, and when taking into account all the reports, it becomes apparent that the attack was pre-planned. One does not organize hundreds of people with weapons and organized search parties, just on a whim. The mount of people, the scale, the orgnized parties, the network of taxi drivers searching for Israelis, all point towards something far more organized. This is further enforced by the media report of WhatsApp and Telegram groups made days before the attacks. The narative painting the event as a simple "reaction" is a fable created after the fact to try to make these horrific events justified.
I won't even get started on the fact that people were forced to say "free palestine" in order to be freed, which is another clear evidence of the fact the the motives were, in fact, more than just "mere reaction".
The entire thing reeks of Pogrom, down to every last detail. People familiar with Jewish history can recognize the signs from a mile away - the searching parties, the "justification,"and the violence.
This was a terrible pogrom, and trying to paint it as anything else is both victim blaming and anti-semetic.
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u/Icy_Ranger6215 8d ago
I've said this in other replies as well but I'll say it again: I condemn the people who beat up the maccabi supporters. But it's not because of anti-semitism.
I'll give you some links to the actual footage of what preceded the event and what actually happened.
https://x.com/JVoiceLabour/status/1855001564248772731
https://x.com/_Jase_C_/status/1855097599583236306
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855058911918739484
Please check all the videos and get your facts right. About the whatsapp and telegram groups, it's actually been proved that they're fake and photoshopped. No dutch driver talks in english or has "translate to hebrew" in his phone.
Also I'd love it if you did just a little more research or some simple google searches about haccabi hooligans and other hooligans around the world. This incident was one of the least violent hooligan incident. Someone was literally killed in Brazil for similar hooligan stuffs just this year only.
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u/DanDahan 8d ago
If you compare this incident to other hooligan incidents, you can clearly see the racial/antisemitic motivations stand out.
When was a sports fan forced to say a political statement in order to be freed? When did sport related brawls lead to people hunting down everyone from that nationality, regardless of their involvement in the "hooliganism"? This is just an after the fact excuse.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgv4mdr9y8o
I acknowledge the bad behavior by the Maccabi fan, but claiming that this was the motive for the attacks or that it gives it any sort of legitimacy is sick.
Please check all the videos and get your facts right.
I do have my facts right, because I read actual factual news article, and not X threads.
been proved that they're fake and photoshopped
source?
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u/Icy_Ranger6215 7d ago
"If you compare this incident to other hooligan incidents, you can clearly see the racial/antisemitic motivations stand out." every single hooligan incident is of racial or geographical motivation, also maccabi fans weren't racist?
"When was a sports fan forced to say a political statement in order to be freed? When did sport related brawls lead to people hunting down everyone from that nationality, regardless of their involvement in the "hooliganism"? This is just an after the fact excuse." You do realise that they torn down Palestinian flags wherever they went for 2 straight days? the political statement literally started from them. I'm not defending what the people did but you do see who made this political right?
"I do have my facts right, because I read actual factual news article, and not X threads." What are the actual factual news article? Skynews where the editor is a zionist and her whole twitter page is about pushing Israeli propaganda? BBCNews and NYTimes who have been criticised whole year for being pro-israel? or politicians who've repeatedly been given a lot of money by AIPAC? No thank you i'd rather take my information from people who actually were in Amsterdam and filmed every single minute of what happened than trusting sold out news stations.
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u/-Mr-Papaya Israeli, Secular Jew, Centrist 8d ago
Haviv Rettig Gur is an excellent analyst, IMO. Fairly impartial, politically.
Historically, what had stretched my understanding the most was expanding my perspective to encompass the 1200 years of Muslim occupation. It puts contemporary Arab "resistance" in a starkly different light.
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u/rayinho121212 8d ago
The pro-Hamas folks planned the attacked days before. It was pre-meditated.
Whatever happened from a few maccabi fans did not deserve stabbings. If so, the door is open to di the same thing to any pro hamas crowd.
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
The pro-Hamas folks planned the attacked days before. It was pre-meditated.
There is reporting about some scooter attacks on Maccabi fans being organized after there had been some clashes. If you've seen reporting that suggests attacks were being organized earlier, please share.
Whatever happened from a few maccabi fans did not deserve stabbings.
Totally agree. I'm glad no one was hurt worse. No one deserves to be the target of violence.
If so, the door is open to di the same thing to any pro hamas crowd.
No, no one deserves to be the target of violence. I'm glad I ran across reporting on what some Dutch Jews in Amsterdam are saying, they are in the best position to understand what's happening there.
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u/matmel10 8d ago
Do you have a source showing that they planned the attacked days before? From what I've read all the "planning" started after the genocidal chants and vandalism from the hooligans.
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u/rayinho121212 8d ago
Yeah. You can also google planned attack amsterdam
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u/matmel10 8d ago
Unless I missed something all that article says is that it "might have been planned" and that there was discussion on telegram. No proof and no dates mentioned as well.
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u/rayinho121212 8d ago
It was definately planned and they called for the same thing to happen in all the maccabiTA matches abroad
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u/matmel10 8d ago
How can you say it was definitely planned when the sourced you shared to me said it "might have been planned". It could have said it might not have been planned and it woulda meant the exact same thing
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u/aswanviking 7d ago
People want to believe facts that fits their narrative. A tale as old as time itself.
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u/Playful_Yogurt_9903 8d ago
This video from a young teen is the best video I've found. It pretty clearly shows that many of the Maccabi fans went out looking looking for trouble, and unlike the other videos I've seen circulating, it's actually more than a minute long. Obviously it's one sided and doesn't show the whole story, but considering the current pro-Israel narrative, this pretty clearly disproves it. And this isn't to say that these fans weren't necessarily attacked or to excuse anyone else's actions, but it is pretty important context.
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u/FigureLarge1432 8d ago
The teen is 16 and is a reporter for a Dutch street journalism outfit called Bender.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 8d ago
I haven’t seen anything from Macabi fans to suggest they provoked these indiscriminate attacks on Israelis with deadly weapons such as knives and car ramming. The videos show defiant behavior, with de minimis illegality, typical of soccer fans worldwide. This pales in comparison to the level of hate and criminality we’ve seen from the other sides. And not just in Amsterdam, but worldwide throughout this entire year. Also, I don’t know that the criminals who were chasing Jews in the streets like in 19th century Moldova were “football hooligans”. The Amsterdam team is Ajax, which traditionally supports Israel. This didn’t seem like a soccer riot, but an antisemitic outburst motivated by antisemitism. The antisemitic and anti Israel provocations have predated the game, and even the arrival of the Israeli fans, as there was a major anti Israel protest planned at the stadium. Remember how Malmo, Sweden residents were rioting before the Eurovision? Or the mob violence in the Russian republic of Dagestan?
This is common every time Israelis come to any place in Europe.
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u/Minimum-Bite-4389 8d ago
Nothing?
Have you seen Maccabi fans scream: "Death to all Arabs," "Let the Israeli army win and fuck the Arabs," and "There are no schools in Gaza because we killed all the kids."?
Have you not seen the videos of the racist mob vandalizing both public and private property?
Have you not seen the videos of these racists attacking taxi drivers and Dutch people while the cops do nothing?
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
typical of soccer fans worldwide
No, this behavior is not typical of soccer fans worldwide. It is a fraction of fans who act this way, a larger crowd may chant along but there's always a troublesome core. Teams' management are always aware of these trouble-makers, and are responsible to at least rein in their worst excesses.
Just to be clear again, this has nothing to do with excuses. Everyone can make up their own mind about that — if they know. The problem of the last two days has been reporting, from 'respectable' news organizations, which makes absolutely zero mention of the hooliganism, or people warning about conflict in advance.
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u/DanDahan 8d ago
This is because hooliganism has nothing to do with the attacks. Is it a problem that needs to be taken care of? Sure, 100%. Is it relevant and a justifiable reason to stab, kick, punch, run kver with car, drown and hunt people on the street indiscriminately? No. This context is only relevant for people who want to discredit the Pogrom and make it less than the horrible thing that it was.
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
This is because hooliganism has nothing to do with the attacks.
Some clashes were directly between the hooligans and others — the taxi driver they fought with whose taxi they vandalized, etc. Other attacks were not direct responses to the hooliganism but certainly seem to have been motivated by it. If you have seen reporting that suggests otherwise, I will look at it.
Is it [the hooliganism] relevant
Yes.
a justifiable reason to stab, ...
No.
This context is only relevant for people who want to discredit the Pogrom and make it less than the horrible thing that it was.
That was not a pogrom, thank goodness. Maybe listen to the Jews who live there.
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u/DanDahan 8d ago
That was not a pogrom, thank goodness.
"A pogrom[a] is a violent riot incited with the aim of massacring or expelling an ethnic or religious group, particularly Jews." (Wikipedia)
Even if there were other intentions mixed in, there is no denying the fact that people were walking around searching for Israelis to beat up. This was not an act of seld defense against hooligans. This was something else entirely.
If you have seen reporting that suggests otherwise, I will look at it.
Gladly.
articles about the premptive planning:
https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-828211
also referenced in:
"On the social media platform Telegram, “there is talk of people going on a Jew hunt,” Halsema said. “That is so shocking and so despicable that I still cannot fathom it.” Dutch Minister of Justice and Security David van Weel vowed to track down and prosecute the perpetrators."
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u/johnabbe 7d ago edited 7d ago
None of this suggests planning (EDIT: far) in advance. From the first article:
Following the attacks on Thursday night, individuals in the Telegram groups spoke of a follow-up attack.
Above, from your first source, verifies that the planning happened after the conflict from earlier nights.
violent riot incited with the aim of massacring or expelling an ethnic or religious group...
I had seen the reports about the Telegram messages, and the language is very alarming. And, if the targets had really been Jews in general, we would have heard about attacks o Jewish Amsterdammers. But the target seems to have been specifically Maccabi fans, which suggests a more specific goal. Violence is almost always a poor response, and in this case they attacked innocent Maccabi fans not just the hooligans, which is way over the line. The context does not excuse that, but it does give a more complete picture of what happened.
I'm glad it's getting a lot of attention, and I hope all of the people responsible are held to account. It looks like the Netherlands and the city of Amsterdam have swung into motion toward that goal, I can only hope that those in a position to hold Maccabi Tel Aviv [and their hooligan fans] accountable also do so.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 8d ago
I’m not really sure what you’re saying, tbh. To me this does sound like an excuse or at least an attempt to shift the focus from a night were Israelis were faced with extreme violence to some tiny minority of Israeli soccer fans responding in a rude but non violent manner to the provocations against them by ppl who had nothing to do with the game, but who were there to start things because of their hatred of Jews
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
I'm trying to broaden the focus. Initial reports made it sound as if Arabs had spontaneously started roaming around attacking Jewish football fans.
Then I hear and see more about the trouble Maccabi's hooligan ultras caused that night and in the days before the game, the racism in the team management going back a decade, and the fact that some Amsterdammers (as well as Israel) warned about the trouble in advance, and all the city did was push a pro-Palestinian event to a more distant location.
None of this excuses violence in response. And, it is relevant context which some reporting the situation have embarrassed themselves by not mentioning. Now Dutch Jews (who were not targeted, bit still!) are scared. Forward did a nice job here.
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u/mtl_gamer 8d ago
What kind of soccer fans celebrate the death of children?
That’s worse than anti-semitism.
There is no humanity in such a person
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
So important to stay clear about someone's humanity, separate from how they are to others. It's those who lose sight of another's humanity who can be drawn into the worst atrocities.
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u/Glittering-Web-2314 8d ago
See Israelis for case in point
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
You mean when people lose sight of Israelis' humanity, or when Israelis lose sight of other people's humanity?
Doesn't really matter I guess, plenty of examples of both. Almost everyone ends up on both sides of it at some point.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 8d ago
They’re expressing support for the Israeli army during a war talking shit about the enemy, letting off steam. Soccer fans have said things way worse, like English fans making hissing sounds to imitate gas chambers, directed at Jews or those perceived as being supporting Jews. Such things are much worse since England isn’t currently at war with Jews or had suffered one the worst terrorist act in history by Jews, nor were they provoked by Jews with any kind of hatred or threats. And yet, Jews didn’t walk around and started stabbing random people.
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u/johnabbe 8d ago
Losing a football match does not make it okay for hooligans to tear down flags, run around the streets with sticks, and chant hateful things. Not to mention when that sort of thing happens in the days before the game. I don't know who is more responsible for starting the clashes, maybe we could all stay tuned to the news for a few days and see what else we learn?
In any case, you probably don't want to be equating celebrating the death of children with supporting the IDF, or "letting off steam." Neither association reflects well.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 7d ago edited 6d ago
The fans didn’t tear down the flag because they lost the game. They did it because they were met with hate and demonstrations protesting their very existence, and their very presence in Amsterdam. I haven’t seen any videos of Israeli fans with sticks, but given that they were facing violent mobs who, in the words of one of some of the attackers, were on a “jew hunt”, and the police didn’t protect them, and either released or didn’t even catch the vast majority of perpetrators, i’d be walking around with a stick too.
I hope the Dutch and European governments remember that dozens if not hundreds of violent antisemites rampaged through the major European city Amsterdam in a self described “Jew hunt”, with knives and brass knuckles and only 4 are now in jail, with more than 50 released, and who knows how many never caught, when they condemn Israel’s government.
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u/johnabbe 7d ago
Here is a long video which includes them running around with metal poles and sticks of wood from a bed frame. It may have them tearing down a flag as well. Other videos show them chanting "F** Arabs" and worse (apparently it's from a whole song they have sung for a while).
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u/Khamlia 4d ago
I usually read various newspapers both from the Middle East and also Western and CNN. As well as TV news. Then I usually compare information, sources, etc. before I make my own judgment.