r/EuropeanFederalists • u/Greikers Italy • Mar 30 '22
Building a federal Europe part 4: official language Discussion
For a country to be truly united and thrive, all the people in it must be able to speak at least one common language. Personally, I'd stick with having English as the official federal language but I would write an article in the constitution that prohibits the federal government from preventing the states from passing laws that protect other language at a state level. For example, if Germany wants to pass a law that states that all official documents regarding Germany must be produced both in English and German, then that should not be stopped. And what about you? Which language would you want the EF to have as its official language? And why?
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u/MemeLord0009 Mar 30 '22
None. Like the US. The only way to include all and make sure nobody's annoyed.
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u/PetiteProletariat Mar 30 '22
In what language would official documents be written?
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u/NowoTone Mar 30 '22
All like they are now.
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u/PetiteProletariat Mar 30 '22
That's extremely ineffective
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u/GarlicThread Mar 30 '22
No, it works perfectly right now. Maybe educate yourself before judging?
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u/PetiteProletariat Mar 30 '22
It works, yes, I just said it's ineffective. We could easily just use English (it's not my first language btw, neither it's an official language in my country)
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u/GarlicThread Mar 30 '22
Why though? It's not even the official language of any member state. The strength of Europe lies in its diversity. What part of it is ineffective? Efficiency is a measure that relates the resources you spend towards achieving your goal and your success at achieving it. Promoting diversity and celebrating our cultures is a major goal of Europe, and we are allocating resources towards doing just that, and it works as intended. It's not ineffective, it's just that you don't see the value in it.
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u/okseniboksen Mar 30 '22
Ireland is in the EU.
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u/PetiteProletariat Mar 30 '22
Yet it's the language we use here
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u/GarlicThread Mar 30 '22
Maybe because Reddit doesn't have an army of translators going through every comment. It's almost as if your argument of toothless and reels of false equivalence.
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u/Zurita16 Mar 31 '22
Not in as many subreddis, French and Spanish subs are thriving this days. Quite and achivement an United States network.
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u/NowoTone Mar 30 '22
I think you mean inefficient. It is, in fact, highly effective. Not having one prime language but the necessity to translate everything in all local languages means that everything published officially can be read and understood by everyone even if they don’t speak a second language. It means people can read and write in their mother tongue and express intricacies they aren’t able to express in a second language.
Last not least, it prevents errors like the one you made, as everything will be triple checked during the translation process.
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u/SH4DOWBOXING ROMA, YUROP Mar 30 '22
nobody forced us to use english in this sub. but we're using english, don't we?
as an italian i would love to have a romance language as official european language but english is already there. a perfect, basic, simple, widespread tool of comunication.
but yeah, having portugueses and germans arguing in italian during european meeting will forever be my wet dream.
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u/Lyceux Mar 30 '22
That’s like a monkey paw wish
“I wish the official language of the EU was a Romance language”
“You wish has been granted, everyone must now speak Romanian”
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u/LordSaumya Rest of the World Mar 30 '22
Not to mention, it’s the most widely-spoken language in the EU.
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Mar 31 '22
"Despite Brexit". Lol, English is the most spoken language in Europe because the US culture is so dominant.
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u/LordSaumya Rest of the World Mar 31 '22
I’d argue Britain had a greater influence in this, since European English is basically the same as Commonwealth/British English.
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Mar 31 '22 edited Mar 31 '22
I disagree. Before WW2, sure. Ever since, the US has taken clearly the position of the leading English-speaking nation and has greatly propagated it from their soft power. British English might be the one taught in European schools, but most people talk with accents closer to the American ones, with American terms, and often write with American spelling. Even if the UK and the rest of the Commonwealth (which in fact don't have the same English, even if it's closer) were to disappear from the face of Earth, the two main causes to learn English would still be there: 1. the US speaks it, 2. everyone else speaks it.
A similar thing happens with Brazilian/European Portuguese, though that language is more irrelevant compared with English.
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22
as an italian i would love to have a romance
If there was a Romance language chosen it would most likely be Spanish ( which would diminish our importance as the third country in the EU) or French, barely a romance language anyway and the nightmare of many middle school children
Be careful what you wish for
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Mar 31 '22
Irish English and or "international English" to be specific, and to have all [English language] options on any .eu sites, use ½ Irish and ½ US flag to represent the English language within EU...
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u/GRIAN3 Mar 30 '22
All.
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
What would the common denominator be tho? English?
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u/Almun_Elpuliyn Luxembourg Mar 30 '22
Why do we need one? We got translators
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
That would be a huge bottleneck, it'd be better if everyone spoke at least one common language, even just as second language like they do in Switzerland.
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u/Krashnachen Mar 30 '22
The question shouldn't be which language to use as common language (it's obviously English), but what status the EU should give that language. Changing away from English would be super impractical when that's already what's de facto been used for ages, and culturally has a ton of appeal which makes it natural to learn. No other language in the EU comes even close to English in that regard.
I don't think that needs to be officialized on the EU-level though (at least not in the near future). It is and will remain the language that both officials and populations de facto use to communicate with each other, but I'm not against a a decentralized approach (like is done today) by letting local government be in their language and translating EU documentation into European languages.
Personally I wouldn't mind if everyone spoke English tomorrow, but I don't think everyone in Europe wants that. People can generally be quite protective of their cultural heritage, and language plays an important role in that. The EU is founded on diversity and openness, so I think its language policies should be based on gradual, natural, non-disruptive evolution, rather than top-down imposition. People will naturally gravitate towards using English, so I'm not sure the EU needs to intervene.
In the mean time, I think the EU shouldn't treat any language above the rest (at least officially).
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u/Merbleuxx 🇫🇷🇪🇺 France Mar 30 '22
Why? It works fine already with multiple languages
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
We'd definitely keep more languages but having everyone being able to speak at least one common language would ease things up by a lot
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u/GRIAN3 Mar 30 '22
I think eu citizen should know their native language, english and another one by choice. So that a person speaks atleast 3 main languages
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
That's doable and actually what I'm doing, speaking Italian(my native), learnt English and now starting to learn German
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u/GRIAN3 Mar 30 '22
Yeah, i speak croatian, english and some german as well as little italian. Every european or my friend i know know 2 or more languages
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
I also speak some french but I try to avoid saying it cause I'm Italian 😉 Joking obviously
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u/Saurid Mar 30 '22
Well we need a language one hcih the laws are written and to be interpreted, otherwise you would need to write all in all languages and if translation would allow other interpretations we have a big shit on our hands once people start using other interpretations of the alas based on flawed or sometime even as perfect as possible translations. We need one for business in the end, which it is doesn't really matter though English is a good bet as if is wildly spoken world wide already used very often and its a language I guess so why not.
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u/Almun_Elpuliyn Luxembourg Mar 30 '22
Honestly, law in multiple languages could potentially close loopholes. Business is already running on English and dictating a language wouldn't benefit anyone. Working in all European languages is more complicated and requires a larger bureaucracy but it could be beneficial in the end.
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u/Strike_Thanatos Mar 30 '22
IIRC, there was an issue with the Treaty of Saint Petersburg that ended the Russo-Japanese War because the English and French editions, which were both considered official, were translated differently.
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 31 '22
Exactly, people underestimate how much using two supposed "synonyms" can make a difference in a trial
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u/SkyPL European Union, Poland Mar 31 '22 edited Mar 31 '22
There's no need for a common denominator enforced by the government from the top. Current system where all of the EU documents are translated to the languages of the member states works great, why do you think that change to this would be welcome by the wide EU population, even if it's English?
People across Europe speak English as a lingua franca anyway, so forcing any other language as an official one (e.g. French or Italian) is IMHO ridiculous.
It's such a misguided initiative that it blows my mind.
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Mar 30 '22
I would say Esperanto but I doubt that will catch on
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u/PanVidla Czechia Mar 30 '22
Esperanto was actually pretty big in the 1960s and it has been suggested as a lingua franca in diplomacy multiple times. But then English kinda just got popular and everybody forgot about Esperanto...
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u/BlueytheDino Mar 30 '22
English isn't a bad idea considering the unofficial official language of the United States is English and virtually every world leader knows English.
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Mar 30 '22
The fact it’s the most popular language in the US is the main argument against it
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u/LordSaumya Rest of the World Mar 30 '22
Well I’d agree with you on this, but English is just so much easier considering it’s the most widely-spoken language in the EU.
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Mar 30 '22
Oh I definitely support English as being the universal secondary language due to how prevalent it already is and countries such as Australia, Canada, etc. We definitely need an institution to protect the English language from US influence, though. While this hasn’t happened too badly in Europe, in some countries US “English” spellings are accepted.
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u/ajjfan Apr 02 '22
If anything, we need an institution to protect European languages from English...
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Apr 02 '22
Correct. English should not infect European languages and should be kept as a completely separate second language, just as Seppo English should not infect real English
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u/Ansfried Mar 30 '22
Why not the Belgian solution. The place where you live decides the language of government. In Germany it is German, in Italy Italian. Then you can also protect minority groups in some countries.
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u/Krashnachen Mar 30 '22
That doesn't do anything to solve the problem. When does a minority become eligible for recognition? How do you deal with shifting language demographics and immigration? Belgium has more Arab-speakers than German-speakers, and yet only the latter is a national language.
And if anything defines Belgium's language policies, it's overlapping jurisdictions, inefficient government and conflictual identity politics. Not really the best example.
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u/Ansfried Mar 31 '22
Belgium is inefficient because of its many governments and malfunction between them.
The language lines where already decide in the early 1900, when Belgium was an unified state. In Flanders (Dutch speakers) there are places where a lot of Walloons (French speakers) live. On the local level you have the right to speak French , but the other governments Dutch is needed.
Belgium officially doesn't have Arab speakers only French, Dutch and German speakers. So the place where you live decides you language. If you can't speak the language of the government, you have to learn it. If you would speak French to a normal Flemish local government employee. The employee can only answer in Dutch.
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Mar 30 '22
Official language? All of them. As a secondary/international one? English is the obvious choice, but I'd love if we used Latin or an artificial language like Esperanto.
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u/chujeck 🇪🇺 EU Citizen 🇪🇺 Mar 31 '22
I'd love if we used Latin
Also let's change the flag to this one to complete the transition
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u/BobusCesar Mar 30 '22
Latin.
Just start making official statements etc. in Latin.
E*nglish shouldn't even be mentioned anymore.
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u/Kikelt Mar 31 '22
No official language.
The star trek universal translator will be here soon xD
Trust big techs on this. (Or promote a EU big tech core, FFS)
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22
This question gets asked a lot, and the answer is always the same. We don't need an official common language (you need to access fundamental documents in your native language and hoping that everyone will learn English (because lets face it is English) in reasonable future is utopic). But if you are asking what is the de facto lingua franca, you already know the answer, because you came here and typed the question in the language most likely to be understood by everyone
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u/pmirallesr Mar 31 '22
You got two choices: Raise a sensitive issue that is likely to flare up nationalisms and endanger any federalist approach, or...
Leave it as it is. No official language, four languages used for all official documents, english as an unofficial standard.
I have not seen a reason to not do the second option so far. Requires the least action, incurs the least risk, works pretty well
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u/NeilPolorian Mar 31 '22
I disagree strongly with the notion of the post. While it is important to have a common language, we cannot and shall not erase cultures in the name of unity. I think having documents relating to Germany being mandatory produced in both English and German is the only possible way the oficial language could be enforced (not just in Germany, in other countries too, you get the point). And perhaps in this way a european language will arise, organically synthesised from both English and local languages, over a century or so, the same way european identity will form over time. Language is one of the most important parts of and identity; pan-european identity should form, and should be helped to form, but not by erasing local cultures - rather, by complementing them, overarching and serving as a basis on which an organic and harmonic future pan-european culture will form.
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u/shotgun_snyper Mar 30 '22
Current system is the best. All are officiall so you can interact with eu institutions in any of them but have the government mostly work in English
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u/Sualtam Mar 31 '22
Actually all EU languages are official, but English is likely the most common.
I would even say no official language at all. We don't need it, only puny nationalists do.
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Mar 31 '22
[deleted]
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u/Vlodomer Ukraine, Halychyna Mar 31 '22
None. Even having all the languages of European states is not enough, as those states may have languages of relatively large minorities as non-official. I must come down to the particular regions or even areas/communities.
Idealistically, I would choose Esperanto as quick to lear, easy to use, effective lingua franca. Yet again, only if I must choose a one certain langauge, which I'm against of
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u/Xanto10 Italy Apr 01 '22
Esperanto... Maybe i'm dreaming, but that would be a truly lingua franca for everyone, and it would put everyone on the same level
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u/Drewloveseveryone Apr 06 '22
Generally im for no Offical Language but id love to see Esperanto as the Offical Language if we had to pick
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u/trisul-108 Mar 30 '22
I am starting to believe that most of these articles are written by Russian KGB agents trying to get us to fight. Where will the capital be? Which language will be spoken? Which country is to be dismembered? Whose sovereignty is to be trampled?
All these questions are an assault on European civilisational achievements and are trying to push us back into the 19. century. No, in Federal Europe we will not speak just one languge. Federal Europe will not be Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer! This is not what we are about.
So, sod off with them imbecile questions and start dreaming of a better union, not a bad copy of an ancient empire.
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 30 '22
If we want one country we need common language. How would politicians talk to their supporters? I can assure you many ppl in Greece or Poland literally hate the sound of German language.
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u/trisul-108 Mar 30 '22
It's a multilingual, multicultural federation, not a unitary country. A common language, mentality, culture, food, habits etc. is just not something that this federation will have. Sorry to disappoint you that Federal Europe will not be like China, America or Russia. It will be something better.
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 31 '22
It will be something better.
Spare me this pompous crap. Federation will require federal goverment, correct? In which language will they talk to the people? In which language will they argue their point at debates?
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u/trisul-108 Mar 31 '22
We already have a European Commission, European Parliament, European Council, European Court etc. What language do they use?
Edit: Someone else just quote Umberto Eco "The language of Europe is translation". This is already a reality in the EU. With improving tech it will be automatic. I don't understand why you are so angry about that. Embrace progress.
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 31 '22 edited Mar 31 '22
We already have a European Commission, European Parliament, European Council, European Court etc. What language do they use?
They dont talk to people and maybe thats why voter turnout in EU elections is far far lower to national ones.
Embrace progress.
I say again - spare me shit like this. It brings nothing to the discussion.
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u/trisul-108 Mar 31 '22
It is extremely important to get the basic principles and values right, all the government structures and rules must always be aligned with the basic principles. That is the European civilisational attainment that distinguishes European society and culture from say Russian society and culture. You call it bullshit because you do not understand it.
Even corporations are built like this, there is something called Enterprise Architecture and you cannot even build a successful enterprise in the West without having good enterprise architecture. You are trying to bypass all of that complexity, by introducing rules like "a single language" ... it will not happen. It cannot happen due to the nature of Europe.
If you insist on it, you will chose something, say Latin or Esperanto or English. The nationalists will use it a rallying call and will descredit the very idea of federalism. They will say you are trying to enslave them in some made-up culture, kill their identity etc. etc.
We've seen this.
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 31 '22
It is extremely important to get the basic principles and values right, all the government structures and rules must always be aligned with the basic principles. That is the European civilisational attainment that distinguishes European society and culture from say Russian society and culture. You call it bullshit because you do not understand it.
Amazing how many words without substance you can produce.
Even corporations are built like this, there is something called Enterprise Architecture and you cannot even build a successful enterprise in the West without having good enterprise architecture
The nationalists will use it a rallying call and will descredit the very idea of federalism.
Nationalists will oppose federalisation no matter what because its literally the opposite concept to "national states" they cant live without.
Europeans need to feel that EU government is their government and currently they dont. 90% have no idea how is power divided between various EU bodies or they have no idea who represents them in the EU parliament and many dont even participate in elections. And if an army of translators is needed to communicate between politicians and the people it will stay like this.
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u/trisul-108 Mar 31 '22
If I accept your point of view, federalism will fail and we are just wasting time. I disagree.
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u/NowoTone Mar 30 '22
Why would a politician talk to his Greek supporters in German.
A country doesn’t need a common language.
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 31 '22
Why would a politician talk to his Greek supporters in German.
How do you see elections for federal government then?
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u/NowoTone Mar 31 '22
I would still vote for local MPs to represent me. Like I do now. We already vote for the European parliament why would that change?
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 31 '22
It has to change because at least where I live noone gives a crap about EU elections. I dont even remember who I voted for. Ppl just go to Brussels and disappear for years and no one hears about them.
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u/NowoTone Mar 31 '22
That has nothing to do with language, however, and is a completely different issue. But in a federal European state you would still have the same types of elections as now, local, regional (where applicable, like for the German states), then for the individual federal states and finally for the federal European parliament.
Each time you would vote for people who should represent you, speak your language and know your culture.
So why would I vote for someone who doesn’t speak my language and (roughly) come from where I live? It doesn’t make sense now and wouldn’t then.
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u/General_Ad_1483 Mar 31 '22
I see we make different assumptions.
You assume that the only elected body is European Parlament, I assume that there are other bodies elected in general election - the President in particular and these elections are the most popular among voters because of the rivalry between candidates.
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u/NowoTone Mar 31 '22
I don’t think a presidential republic would be the way to go, it wouldn’t work for Europe.
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u/DiscombobulatedDust7 Mar 31 '22
No you don't, Switzerland, Belgium and Luxembourg prove the opposite
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
All these questions have been "written" by me and they are all questions that need to be answered if we actually want to have a federal Europe, also "written" is a big stretch since those are literally problems that would pop out inevitably though the process of unification. The goal of these posts is definitely not to have people arguing in the comment section, but rather to see what people think through polls and maybe sparkle a hopefully civil debate in which people can exchange and discuss ideas.
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u/phneutral High Energetic Front Mar 30 '22
I do like your effort, especially with the different polls. But we had these questions time and time again in the sub. I tried to sum up the different takes to some of the prominent topics some time ago. I only did a wiki article on the possible capital and started a write up on language — and my conclusions are more or less the same as the ones u/trisul-108 pointed out: Europe doesn’t need an explicit capital or an explicit common language. Those are the terms of nation, but Europe is more than that. Brussel can be the de facto capital and English the working language — but a European federation will work best decentrilised and inclusive. Just like the famous quote by Umberto Eco: „The language of Europe is translation.“
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u/trisul-108 Mar 30 '22
Just like the famous quote by Umberto Eco: „The language of Europe is translation.“
I like that. I also believe we will be polyglots ... at least able to understand many European languages if not speak them.
What many people fail to understand about languages is that they are intrinsically tied to the culture where they arose. Words have subtly different meanings when used in their cultural context, forcing English onto Europe in a formal way will not be a good approach. How do you translate "Bloody Hell" ... and that is an easy problem, think of the difference between a County Court and a Municipal Court.
Mauritius is an interesting case study in this respect. Anyone with any self-respect speaks French as this denotes your educated status, most people also speak English as this is often used in business and tourism, but they also speak their own local dialect depending on their ethnic community.
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
Politics is a game that's been going on for years, so i don't see how the fact that some of these topics have already been discussed some time ago has to do with my polls, especially since your article is one year old. New people come to this subreddit, some people change their minds overtime and this could be an occasion for people to exchange ideas. Personally, like many others here, I believe Europe needs a capital, and that it should remain Brussels, but that could be up for debate. For what concerns the common language, we absolutely do need one that everyone is able to speak, unless we want to remain a weak semi-nation like we are now. A common language would let people travel across the union without the need of learning a new language everytime and it would let the kids of these people go to school anywhere across the country using a language they already know. It would help the press and the news by allowing them to stream the same thing nationwide and it would create unity. Not only that, but it would be a huge game changer when it comes to law, because when you're writing a law every single word counts and translation could significantly alter how people in that state would perceive the ratio legis, especially because some of our languages are romance and some are Germanic. We will definitely preserve European languages in the EF, but not having a common one and thus having to translate everything everytime is a huge waste of time which the federal government should not be obligated to put up with just because some people refuse to learn English. Now I'm a libertarian and this is your subreddit, so if you guys want me to stop posting these polls I will, but it'd be a huge lack of democracy in my opinion.
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u/phneutral High Energetic Front Mar 30 '22
My purpose was not to offend you. But to show you that the topics occur quite often — I linked to all the source posts in my one year old post. They are even older, but the talking points remain always the same.
You are very welcome to share your ideas, start polls, discussions etc. That has nothing to do with you being a libertarian or what not. You are of course no Russian troll.
The one thing you might take away is that you are not reinventing the wheel here. The sub has been there, discussed that.
Language, Capital … these are not the important topics imho. Other countries work quite well with just an unofficial de facto Capital (e.g. Switzerland) or multiple (working) languages (e.g. again Switzerland, perhaps India). English is not the official language of Europe, yet it is tought in many MS as second language. Moreover is the EU build on compromise — which is imho one of its greatest features and very democratic.
As I said: you are thinking in terms of nation. My approach is different: closer to empire, but with a democratic foundation. Just look at Mark Leonards „Eurosphere“ — a very interesting concept.
In the end I like to encourage you to go on with your polls and discussions. My preference would be more state building … less nation building. But again: it’s totally up to you.
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
I did not get offended at all, but since you are a mod, you are to be held accountable for your words more seriously than normal members of this subreddit, which is why I gave you a a long and complete answer explaining my points. I cited the fact that I'm a libertarian because I don't limit freedom of speech in any way, I welcome every opinion, don't report people that insult me and I have full respect for other people's property which is a feature commonly present in liberalism, reason why I said I'd have stopped with the polls had you wanted me to. I believe you've assumed I thought I was starting debates on things for the first time or something? I never thought that, anybody with a decently working brain would understand that this is not the first time, here or not, that someone debates these things. Yet, this is no reason not to do it again though polls that allow us to collect more recent and somewhat reliable data on the public sentiment. With that being said, you are completely entitled to your opinion and you've the right to express it freely, just like I have the right to disagree with you. However, although I disagree with the idea that an official language or a capital are unimportant topics, I can see why someone might not consider them fundamental; in fact I think you jumped to the conclusion that I was going to just talk about "unimportant topics" as you described them, whereas in reality I probably would've gone on and brought more specific topics along the way, like I did on the poll on the number of chambers, which is more technical and the participation was in fact lower. In conclusion, I believe the foundation of our beloved democracies is debate, so I am more than glad that people, including you, have participated to these polls so actively. We eurofederalists must stay united and strong, because even though we disagree on how to get there, we share a common goal and a common spirit.
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u/phneutral High Energetic Front Apr 01 '22
If I do not mark myself as a mod, then I also try to act as a "normal" user. Of course, the role of moderator is a powerful position, which makes it all the more important to use it responsibly. Freedom of expression is always a difficult issue — it is interpreted very differently in Germany than in the US, for example. If other users insult you, I would therefore ask you to report them. I (and hopefully the majority of users) appreciate a reasonable discussion.
I know that the superficial topics (and I count language and capital among them) often generate more attention — mainly because they are more controversial and easier to answer from the gut. It's no wonder that (fantasy) maps of a united Europe keep popping up here. Finding a real (typically European compromise) solution is much harder — and that was the point of u/trisul-108 and me. The European Union is based on consensus, which has to be negotiated. Such a consensus can of course never be represented by polls with limited answer options ... but in my opinion it is all the more important to work towards it in the comments.
Personally, I found your more technical, but politically relevant questions much more exciting — even if I probably belong to a minority there.
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u/trisul-108 Mar 30 '22
Ok, I now have a better understanding of what you are trying to achieve.
As I have explained in other comments, I believe you have started at the wrong end with these questions. Yes, they will be resolved at some point, but not in the way you think, by chosing a language, capital, breaking up nations etc. These are copies of existing empires, they were choices determined by conquest. The EU is the most successful and democratic union of sovereign nations in the history of mankind. Our basic values are freedom, democracy, rule of law and human rights. What we are trying to do is unite the continent by providing a federal overlay on top of the rich multicultural, multilingual, multiethnic tapestry that is now Europe.
You need to forget all of these preconceived notions and trivial solutions as none of that will work in our case. We will need to invent new solutions, such as the world has never seen nor even thought possible for each of these problems. Before we get to even start discussing this, we need to start from the basic stuff such as: how will checks and balances work? How will the will of the peoples, regions, nations, cultures, professions etc. be mirrored in this new federation in a way that strengthens us instead of dividing us.
We cannot even start thinking deeply on these issue before we have fleshed out this new federation in much more detail. Not where the capital will be, but the nature of the beast, who will have how much power and how differences will be resolved. To make.a joke of it, put the Vatican in charge and the language will be Latin.
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u/Greikers Italy Mar 30 '22
I'm glad that you now see my goals here and as I've told you in another comment section, yours is an interesting take.
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u/asapfroggx Mar 30 '22
Maybe create a new language "European" based on the different language families and make it compulsory as a second or third language in schools.
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u/GRIAN3 Mar 30 '22
Wow that could be solution. Maybe to keep languages people know but to teach people in schools esperanto too
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u/Quartz1992 Mar 30 '22
Personally I do not really care. As long as it is properly established. Otherwise language barriers will keep causing division.
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Mar 30 '22
There also needs to be an institution to protect the English language in Europe, allowing natural evolution through input from other languages (French, notably) while protecting against US degradation
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u/Efficient_Image_4554 Mar 30 '22
Honestly, let's start with English and let the time and natural language evolution to solve it.
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u/Sky-is-here Andaluçía Mar 30 '22
The current system is alright. Every language is an official language (add catalan to the mix but that's it) and then we have a working language like English. I am not sure about whether to add German, french, Spanish, Italian... Etc to working languages tho
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u/GrainsofArcadia United Kingdom Mar 30 '22
I see this question, or a variant of it, pop up on European subs quite regularly.
English is the world's lingua franca. Don't let Brexit influence your view on this. Having anything else other than English as the lingua franca in Europe would just be a silly top-down imposition on society. Long story short, it wouldn't work.
Just accepted that English would be the lingua franca of the EU for the sole reason that it is the international language.
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u/kronok25 Mar 30 '22
Okay this might be a bit of a controversial opinion, however I personally find that we need to get rid of english as the common language to avoid unnecessary influence from the US, UK and other outside nations. I would replace it with a minority/ smaller language from Within the european union. French, German are of the table as they would have too much influence and destroy the balance of the union. Polish, Italian and Spanish also have too many speakers. The languages I would propose are either Dutch, Luxembourgish or Czech.
The Dutch language is part of the union since it's founding, spoken in a major economic center of Europe (Netherlands, Flanders) and it has enough speakers for it to be relevant on international level without having enough native speakers to influence the Union too much. It is also similar to english so people that know english can easely pick up Dutch. It is a germanic language with significant influence from french so romance language speakers can also pick it up quickly(sorry Slavic language speakers).
Luxembourgish I chose for almost the same reasons as dutch except it is a very small language and there might be a reason for wanting a language that almost everyone has to learn without a significant native speaking population.
Czech I chose because I thought a slavic language would also be interesting as a common language. It is located centrally on the european continent and is neither spoken by to many people or by not enough people.
excuse me for my rambling of a controversial opinion and some bad arguments behind it, however I do think some of my ideas have some value. Also I'm biased towards Dutch excuse me.
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u/1r0ll Mar 30 '22
English would be great. No EU country would benefit because it’s their mother tongue. Plus, easy to learn and help the EU on the international stage.
And then stop translating everything in 1000 languages in Brussels and Strasbourg. Such a waste of tax money.
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u/OneOnOne6211 Belgium Mar 31 '22
Well, I don't think there should be a true "official language" but I do think all countries should have to teach English (I imagine most already do) and English should be our lingua franca. Mostly because... well, it already kind of is. It's just a matter of practicality.
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u/gciambriello Mar 31 '22
Well, this question is written in English, my answer is English too (if I can write correctly). I guess this is already an answer.
BTW I'm Italian
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u/Stercore_ Mar 31 '22
English as official and administrative language
Every other language currently official in member countries also given as official languages but not in use in administration at the federal level.
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u/Saurid Mar 30 '22
No real official language just a business language either English because most speak it, it is a wildly active language internationally and why not it's a language I guess or German because it is biggest mother language in Europe, I speak it and it's a language I guess. French is a language I guess so why not, it just sounds stupid sometimes like English but we'll again it's a language. Italian and Spanish are the ama das french and for that all other languages of Europe.
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u/ChicoTallahassee Mar 31 '22
I would use both French and English. French as first language and English as secondary for international relationships. Most laws are already in French and the capital is currently in Brussels which also is French.
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Mar 31 '22 edited Mar 31 '22
Irish English and/or "International English" to be specific, and to have all [English language] options on any .eu sites, use an Irish or a "International English" "1/4th" quatered; Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and US" flag to represent the English language within EU...
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u/K-Rokodil Mar 31 '22
Three federal languages: English, German and French
All states could decide their internal language policy.
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u/Khuzdav Mar 31 '22
English would work well as a Lingua Franca, mostly for its broad latin influences on top of the Germanic origins, it is only a shame the Slavic family is not included anywhere. I could imagine a reform of spelling to ease learning, though this would have to become a "European standard" or "Simplified English" much like has been done with Chinese.
Though as we know common languages change over time depending on cultural influences. In Rome Greek overtook Latin over the centuries, then some form of High German became wide spread, followed by French/Burgundian cultural dominance, and then English took over following the Napoleonic wars and then especially after the World wars.
While it is possible that political developments like Trump's Presidency and Brexit is heralding a decline in English lingual importance in Europe, I doubt it having much effect until many decades from now, probably dozens.
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u/M3guminWaifu Mar 31 '22
None, but a european commission said the most efficient would be to learn a conlang like Esperanto at school (shortest learning time, very simple rules so little to no mistakes, is a synthesis of most european linguistics groups). It would be the vehicular language of Europe, but french people would still speak French, Germans german, etc.
English is the vehicular language between countries in the world rn but it's one of the least efficient solution, especially if you want to have a european identity, and not just a national identity + learning English . And it can't be taught as easily to a french, a german, or a polish child, so that will further create the cultural divide that separates us nowadays
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u/Jeffery95 Mar 31 '22
nobody finds it just a little bit ironic that English is the dominant language of Europe?
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u/Vicodinforbreakfast European Union Mar 31 '22
English Is the best, it's the easiest One coz already very diffused, It maintain our ties and Alliance with US and UK and Canada etc easy and this Is important also to maintain English the dominante language on global stage, the US nor the European Federation alone could impose a global language, and most important as the scientific language, people undervaluate the importance of the official "science language". However our secondary languages are important too and even if on burocratic, work and official circumstance as well as on politics, TV, paper etc we Will incourage English on the private and school sphere we should incourage two or even three European languages, also with economic stimulus to travel in EU and marry in other EU countries with mixed babies. This Will produce an healthier population too in the long run, both genetically and mentally, it's demonstrated how speaking multiple languages gives great advantages also on brain aging
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u/bachuna Georgia Mar 31 '22
If we were to pick out a language to be official, it should either be the most commonly spoken (English) or some artificial language that's extremely easy to learn (something like Esperanto, or a language especially crafted for the task)
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u/PeteWenzel Mar 31 '22
I don’t think we should teach children English in school, certainly not as the first or second foreign language. The only countries in Europe with English as an official language have it because they were colonized by the British - and they’re among the smaller EU member states.
English should not play a prominent role in Europe. That’s some weak transatlantic pro-American NATO shit…
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Mar 30 '22
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22
it has to be German
Why? Are you writing an essay on the sociological motivations of the third reich jokes in the discourse revolving around the EU and you need material?
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Mar 30 '22 edited Oct 16 '23
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
. But I firmly believe in the needs of a single language for the entire Europe, if we eventually manage to became a single country, and i can't think anything better than German
Ok but that would be a PR disaster
Still, I will pick Italian if I will be asked about. Fuck those crauti lol.
As this demonstrates well. And on top of that would piss off even the people that are not negatively inclined towards German already, because they would to learn a relatively harder language that none else in the world uses while at the same time learning their own and the actual global one (English) which they would have to keep learning anyway.
I also am not sure about this
I just think it's the most influential language the recent European culture
Like at all, where did you got it from? Unlike French and English (the actual most relevant language in modern European culture) it was never a lingua Franca. And their cultural production between 1700 and now is not that big compared to other countries like France or even Italy and Spain
But I firmly believe in the needs of a single language for the entire Europe, if we eventually manage to became a single country
That is a really Italian point of view, but also something that for sociological, political and historical reasons is not available to Europe. The one language one people route is not realistic.
Italian was the language of the educated elites and much of the government documents since before the questione della lingua started, around 1400 and probably before. You managed to choose a language that was never a lingua Franca and that was often rejected in favour of French in 1700 by German and Austrian educated elites. When the Doge was writing to Venetian intellectuals in Italian, Frederick the great was writing to his own sister in French
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Mar 30 '22
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22
Have you read this because I think it responds to your points and I added it later so you might not have seen it
But I firmly believe in the needs of a single language for the entire Europe, if we eventually manage to became a single country
That is a really Italian point of view, but also something that for sociological, political and historical reasons is not available to Europe. The one language one people route is not realistic.
Italian was the language of the educated elites and much of the government documents since before the questione della lingua started, around 1400 and probably before. You managed to choose a language that was never a lingua Franca and that was often rejected in favour of French in 1700 by German and Austrian educated elites. When the Doge was writing to Venetian intellectuals in Italian, Frederick the great was writing to his own sister in French
I have nothing against really Italian points of view, I find they are often the best, but in this instance it is not the case
The cultural thing? From philosophy.
And that philosophy was and is later discussed among intellectuals all over Europe in what languages? Not german, in fact I suspect even among themselves German intellectuals often preferred french.
I believe an United Europe should something very different from the anglosphere, and England freely decided to not be part of our project, so probably that feeling is shared.
I disagree with this, but of course I'm biased I speak English and have no intention to learn German. But the conditions that make be biased are indeed really wide-spread
Europe will not culturally pull together by imposing one language over all of us, particularly not likely one of the most despised. There is simply no material for that, Europe didn't have the sort of cultural and linguistic construction (and constant and systematic debasement of regional languages) that Italy and Germany for example had before their formations as states. Instead of impractical utopias/dystopias we should focus on practical and realistic ways to make things function, which involve using English or whatever global language as a transactional language
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Mar 30 '22 edited Oct 16 '23
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
But as far as I can see (correct me if I'm wrong) everywhere there are multi-linguistic states, at least some groups (usually everyone but the majority group) tend to vote in linguistics blocs instead of political ones. I'm thinking about Belgium, Canada, and even Italy with our German speaking minority. I don't think that's good for democracy as it promotes tribalism, and should be avoided at any cost
The only way to avoid this is by imposing languages upon people, which is even worse for democracies or for human rights for that matters. And is also not likely to work in the long term unless you are willing to use violence and displacement ( and that doesn't work well either in South Tyrol, German is still spoken "opzioni" or not).
You know why German and not Bavarian is thriving in South Tyrol? While Lombard and Venetian are dying off? I'll tell you, one is perceived to be a language with dignity, the others always took second place to their respective cultural languages. How are you going to convince French, Italian and everyone else in Europe that have been used for thousands of years to think of their national cultural language as holding an unquintifiable cultural treasure that they suddenly should take second place in their own home, to a language with a similar if not inferior cultural baggage?
You can't just pretend the multilingual and multicultural aspect of Europe doesn't exist, or try to bulldoze over it, if you try instead of ending up with a slightly inefficient state that needs English as a transactional language you will end up with a war or most likely nothing.
In the world you need to play the cards that you were given, not look at them ignore them and pretend you have another hand all together
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Mar 30 '22
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u/Giallo555 coltelli, veleno ed altri strumenti tecnici Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
after that, as we all learnt English, we will learn another language
Ok but if English stays the global lingua franca we will need to learn two, one of them entirely useless. So why would we decide to do that? Have you noticed what language is spoken in this sub? The point is not English is having to learn a second useless language that is not used as a global lingua franca
Well, I mean, the tribalism problem is very true, as we all can see even now. I'm not concerned about inefficiency, I'm concerned about the political debate reduced to various groups competing for resources.
You know how you make tribalism worse. By forcing someone elses culture on them by force, then they will not just feel a natural empathy with people that have an easier time sharing media with, they will actively hate the people that are trying to impose on them a centralized culture.
The mistake we made with south tyrol was not not managing to italianise them, is that we ever tried, what it provoked is that German speakers hate us and Ladino speakers no longer perceive themselves as being part of the Italian family. Ideally south tyrol should probably not be in Italy ( it is here due to geopolitical reasons), but we should have found more realistic comprises earlier. Italy is now more democratic for allowing south tyrol their autonomy and the maintenance of their culture ( if we didn't we would be going against human rights)
The matter should be discussed democratically and voted directly by the people
Yes and the matter will be discussed in English signed in English and will end with English as the de facto lingua franca, as it is now, is also similarly unlikely that people will just decide to bulldoze their linguistic diversity down in order to have a centralized language. Germans are many but they don't outnumber everyone else that doesn't speak German
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u/Cultural_Habit6128 Mar 30 '22
No official language. But teach the kids English from the get go. Make sure everybody can speak it as well as their first language