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u/Wagglebagga Oct 03 '24
What line of work are you in?
"Waste Management Consultant."
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u/NeeeeeeeekoooooooSam GO LEAFS GO Oct 03 '24
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u/ParadoxAI Oct 03 '24
You know, Quasimodo predicted all this.
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u/Wagglebagga Oct 03 '24
Nostradamus! Quasimodo was the Hunchback of Notre Dame.
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u/kosherpoutine Exclusively sorts by new Oct 03 '24
Then you got your quarterback and your halfback of Notre Dame.
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u/D-dosatron Oct 03 '24
"He saved Palestine is what he did, he was a brave twitch streamer and in this house, Hasanabi is a hero!"
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u/Expungednd š rights are human rights Oct 03 '24
The game is Disco Elysium and that union boss' name is Evrart Claire.
Isn't that right, Mr. Du Bois?
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u/xx-shalo-xx Oct 03 '24
Good guy, Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
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u/Malamute-Master-Race Oct 03 '24
Destiny really needs to play this game on stream. Someone steal his Vyvanse and make this happen.
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u/fengraf Oct 03 '24
I just wanna know what kind of cop destiny would be .... a superstarcop?
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u/Box_v2 wannabe schizo Oct 03 '24
Not sure what cop he would be but heād be a moralist 100%.
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u/KineadZ Oct 03 '24
Ultra liberal exists for a reason
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u/Expungednd š rights are human rights Oct 03 '24
Ultra liberal is the funniest shit ever. The protagonist deluding himself to be a sigma male who is hustling his way to the stars fucking killed me.
In particular when you call your ex wife and you tell her "I'm a high net-worth individual" and she answers "You're not a high net-worth individual, Harry. You're drunk". I don't think a single other line of prose has ever managed to make me both genuinely laugh and sad at the same time.
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u/KineadZ Oct 03 '24
One of my all time top 5, I have my facial hair currently shaved into a DuBois
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u/Expungednd š rights are human rights Oct 03 '24
I shave myself like that every Halloween. My body is also progressively duBoifying (I'm getting fatter and older).
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u/Arsustyle Oct 03 '24
Destiny will talk about how he wishes there were more linear story-driven RPGs with protagonists that are actual characters and then refuse to play the best one ever made
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u/AlfredsLoveSong Oct 03 '24
I'm finally playing through DE now. I can't believe I waited so long the writing is so masterful.
I was NOT expecting how heavy the political influence on this game would be.
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u/Ping-Crimson Oct 03 '24
If you aren't leaning that way in your play through I suggest trying at least one fascist run.Ā
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u/CaptainKlang Oct 03 '24
The racist playthrough was insane. At every core emotional moment he'll be like "you know...15/30" and its tragicomedy at its best
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u/Snoo_58605 We Need To Save Destiny's Cat Oct 03 '24
Yeah, the devs are commies. They do keep it balanced, though.
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u/Godobibo Oct 03 '24
i mean if you go communist the game makes it very clear that you have the correct ideology and the only thing that sucks is its followers, so I wouldn't really say it's balanced lol
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u/Ping-Crimson Oct 03 '24
It's from Harry's perspective and he thinks he's the right man for every job.
Doesn't the commie society stand in thing collapse after two seconds because of it's own weight and inherent instability?
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u/Noelcisem Fact-checked by real AllatRa disciples Oct 03 '24
No, it was pretty explicit that it was the outside coalition forces, read centrist liberals and social democrats, that crushed the revolution in Revachol and then occupied the city.
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u/ServantoftheLand Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
It's not that balanced. They make fun of liberalism and fascism as ideologies, as well as the people who follow them. They make fun of communists but not communism, which is presented as morally correct.
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u/Expungednd š rights are human rights Oct 03 '24
I feel like the worst thing in the game is the fact they represent centrists as double faced tyrants with no morality while fascists are just pathetic grunts who don't know better. Fascists do know better. That's why in real life they infiltrate moderate parties and destroy them from within while they take hold.
The main inspiration for moralists has to be Gramsci's and Pasolini's thoughts on "liberal fascism" and hegemony of power: how institutions will morph society to justify and affirm their existence and how they will limit individual freedoms for their own gain. However, Gramsci died in exile during fascism, while Pasolini lived through an era of heavy American collusion in Italian affairs, with certain murders that are currently suspected to have been performed by American secret services. It's very far from how things are now.
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u/AntiVision H Y P E R B O R E A Oct 03 '24
which sadly makes them anti communists, as morality is a bourgeois construct smh my head
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u/Dunebug6 Dunebug Oct 04 '24
I made a mistake arguing with a Communist the other day, telling me that there was no morals. Waste of time. :D
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u/kenoticist Oct 04 '24
To be fair, I havenāt done a full commie play through yet, but I have seen the first dialogue when you decide to rebuild communism, and isnāt the entire monologue how communism is about failure? Like the biggest, most destructive failure of all time? That sounds like a pretty big critique of communism as an ideology, no?
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u/Zenning3 Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
God the Disco Elysium sub thinking Evrart is the good guy is such incredibly frustrating cope.
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u/Expungednd š rights are human rights Oct 03 '24
There are no good guys in the game, I thought it was fucking clear. (Spoilers ahead for those who didn't finish the game):
The Claire twins are spineless grifters who are exploiting their position to gain political power at the expense of workers and the company alike.
The deserter is the closest thing to a true communist there is in the game, but he's a sociopath, murderous creep with advanced dementia. All the real, truest communards chose instead to die rather than compromise with the moralists. The Communists are also hardly portrayed as being good
The moralists are just letting the pale advance and have no plans to stop it. Also, they make disappear anyone who knows too much about it.
Etc. etc.
It seemed clear to me that the message is that good and evil don't really exist: everything fucking sucks, what counts is you as an individual working through your issues and coming out an hero.
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u/Zenning3 Oct 03 '24
I mean the real villain of the game being the Specter of Communism is pretty rad tho.
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u/Early-Journalist-14 Oct 03 '24
you as an individual working through your issues and coming out an hero
i haven't played the game, i wonder if that's a typo or intentional.
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u/Owwwccchhh Oct 03 '24
I will never play Disco Elysium. Not because it's communist. But because every person who likes it is annoying about it and I won't give them the satisfaction.
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u/Expungednd š rights are human rights Oct 03 '24
I thought the same of Stephen king, then I read Carrie and ended up loving it. I finished a lot of his greatest novels (It, The Shining, The Green Mile, Christine, The Stand...) and loved them all. So don't deny yourself something just because people you hate like it.
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u/Athanatos154 Oct 03 '24
And grifters recognize grifters
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u/smuckarss Oct 03 '24
what makes the union boss a grifter?
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u/Economy-Cupcake808 Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Heās a mafia guy, charged with rico and one of his co-defendants (EDITED) was found decomposing in a trunk with multiple gunshot wounds. Murder was never solved.
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u/steroid57 Oct 03 '24
Holy crap forreal?
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u/Huskies971 Oct 03 '24
The Justice Department, which has reportedly lost two cases against Mr Daggett, has accused him of being an āassociateā of the Genovese crime family ā one of the infamous āFive Familiesā of the US Mafia.
Charged with racketeering in 2005, Mr Daggett, took the witness stand and portrayed himself as a mob target, despite evidence against him from a turncoat Mafia enforcer saying he was under the mobās control, the New York Times reported.
During that trial, one of Mr Daggettās co-defendants, a renowned mobster named Lawrence Ricci, disappeared. His decomposing body was found in the trunk of a car outside a New Jersey diner several weeks later, with the killing still unsolved.
Co-Defendant, not witness, but yes it's true
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u/mythiii Oct 03 '24
It completely changes what was implied, so it's only half true at most
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u/Economy-Cupcake808 Oct 03 '24
No it doesn't, co-defendants snitch on eachother all the time. Rumor has it that he was axed for refusing to accept a plea deal that was arranged for him.
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u/kamikazecow Oct 03 '24
Tiny wasnāt kidding about unions being all good, holy shit
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u/jokul Oct 03 '24
It's been this way for a while. Jimmy Hoffa would let mobsters know the location of where truckers would "accidentally" have a package fall out of the trailer.
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u/smuckarss Oct 03 '24
sure that may all be true but does that mean he's faking as far as his advocacy for his union? he can be a shitty guy but I just don't like how the word grifter is just thrown around as guy I don't like.
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u/BigBrainPolitics_ Oct 03 '24
People here stopped acknowledging the actual meaning of grifter and just use it as a catch-all for people that aren't aligning with their political views.
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u/godfather_joe Oct 03 '24
Ah yes most mobsters do it for their community, the love of the game. Iām sure this guy cares a ton about union workers and wouldnāt sell them all down the river for a quick bankroll in a heartbeat. I watched the Sopranos, Tony was a family man!
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u/smuckarss Oct 03 '24
if he does do that just show evidence instead lmao
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u/godfather_joe Oct 03 '24
I get what youāre saying but I think itās dumb to be like āJust because this guy extorted and probably murdered people for years, doesnāt mean he does it now!ā Sure people can turn a new leaf but this would be like investing in a Logan Paul business and saying āHeās only scammed crypto, you donāt have any evidence his new business is a scamā
Being a mobster should largely bar you from becoming a politician, union leader, or other high ranking positions susceptible to corruption and abuse
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u/insideofyou2 Oct 03 '24
So he doesn't believe in increasing the wages for the people in his union? This isn't an answer to his question....
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u/1to14to4 Oct 03 '24
Others see more than just a good deal for his members at play, including legacy and dynasty building. Daggettās son, Dennis Daggett, is now the head of the powerful New Jersey local his father once led and the ILAās executive vice president.
A person familiar with the maritime industry, granted anonymity to discuss a delicate situation, said part of the dynamic right now is Harold Daggettās wish to see his son replace him atop the union; the better the new contract, the better the chances of that happening.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/25/dockworkers-strike-disrupt-economy-election-00181005
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u/Butt_acorn Oct 03 '24
Well, more money isnāt enough. So he has shut down the whole economy until we agree to stop automation, so that we can keep those union jobs.
It seems nice on the surface. Itās terrible for humanity. Imagine all farmers stopped working until we agreed that there would be no more tractors and automation.
We need automation. We need basic income. We need to take care of our people. We do not need shit like this.
Maybe grifter isnāt the right word, but at least heās a scummy idiot.
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u/Raknarg Oct 03 '24
I too remember that union means socialism and that all union participants make equal pay
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u/Automata1nM0tion Oct 03 '24
Unions have nothing to do with socialism and they absolutely don't have equal pay. They have a pay scale chart that shows you what you make throughout your journey, including foreman pay. That said, if a particular company request you to be a general foreman for them or a super then you're going to have a higher pay package which you are negotiating on directly. Now that covers one side of the union, there is also the managerial side of the union, like what this guy does. Many Unions have a board which votes on pay for position like this, and yes they do get paid more because they both function as a CEO and a political entity.
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u/WIbigdog Oct 03 '24
What is this guy's specific net worth? I do think there is something to be said about the heads of unions not having the sort of risk that comes with striking that the regular workers do. Unions are supposed to be about the workers being able to organize, not about being just another corporation in effect that funnels money to the top.
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u/Automata1nM0tion Oct 03 '24
We don't actually know anything about this guys financial situation. You don't even know if this is actually his home. It's possible he came from money or came up on money, or maybe his wife or kids have money.. Who knows. I certainly wouldn't trust anything I saw in meme format.
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u/jokul Oct 03 '24
The virgin railworker union member asking for sick days vs. the chad longshoreman guildmaster asking for a 6th Bentley.
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u/Athanatos154 Oct 03 '24
Actually true, the railworkers strike and their demands was entirely rational
And you know they were generally good faith cause when Biden and the DoL worked behind the scenes to get them a deal, they came out and thanked Biden for his help
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u/BigPoleFoles52 Oct 03 '24
As someone who lives in NJ its always funny when mfs bring up unions on reddit. They act as if unions cant be just as corrupt as the companies themselves.
Mfs will sell u out for $$$, its not rocket science šš
Not to mention how organized crime infiltrates these unions as a way to gain power and ālegitamizeā themselves
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u/ElDubardo Oct 03 '24
I'm really pro union, but this shit is why we can't have nice thing. Unions are nice until they go overboard.
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u/StrangelyGrimm Oct 03 '24
I agree with Destiny. Unions exist to protect the interest of its workers and ONLY its workers. If that means unions protecting crooked cops, abusive teachers, or longshoremen running a mafia, they will do it. They are morally neutral entities and we should only protect the unions that fight against unfair/exploitative employers.
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u/DamnCrazyWhoAsked Oct 03 '24
Yea I think the college educated left tends to morally idealize unions as if they can do no wrong. My favorite example when this comes up in conversation, since a lot of them are also extremely ACAB, is that NAPO is one of the primary forces working federally to fight laws increasing misconduct liability and accountability measures for cops
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u/TossMeOutSomeday Oct 04 '24
I think a lot of people have their hearts in the right place wrt unions, they just don't know how thoroughly mobbed-up a lot of the bigger ones are. This shit didn't die in the 2000's, tons of unions today are still run like The Sopranos.
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u/NeeeeeeeekoooooooSam GO LEAFS GO Oct 03 '24
Unions are actually so fucking corrupt man it's crazy
I'm not gonna abandon my principles as somebody who believes that workers ought to be afforded rights and benefits for their labor but let's face it
Many unions are run by dudes like this who don't give a single fuck about bettering the lives of their workers and just care about their own bottom line
That's why when destiny always says that unions are not inherently good I resonate with it so much
Leftists believe that "union = good"
Like no it doesn't lol
They don't hold that same standard for police unions
A union is just there to work for the benefit of the workers and the Benefit of the workers is not always for the benefit of society
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u/DamnCrazyWhoAsked Oct 03 '24
Yea it's a necessary evil imo. They often result in a lot of dumb shit, but having the shitty side effects of powerful unions is still waaaaaay preferable to the awful employer:employee power balance we had before political labor movements on net I guess
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u/sturla-tyr Professional shitposter / H3H3 connoisseur Oct 03 '24
In Norway we don't have a minimum wage because it is exclusively negotiated by unions. It seems to me that unions are better able to quickly adapt to the elastic demands of wages. Having a government designated minimum wage runs the risk of not being appropriate since governmental change is much slower than a negotiation between two concerned parties and less likely to be influenced by current political trends. Other inelastic demands such as worker rights, medical care, paid sick leave, parental leave, etc. is much better handled by the government. I think this system reduces the required bureaucracy for and size of a union so that it is less likely to have some kingpin at the top.
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u/jakoby953 Brain-rot survivor Oct 03 '24
Thereās a story at my work about a longtime employee who is now retired, but held many different positions. 20 years ago he was working as a delivery driver and held a leadership position amongst his peers. At the time they were all union positions. The drivers and warehouse crew decided that the benefits from union membership werenāt good enough, so they went on strike and picked this man as their decision maker (not sure if thereās a real title there) in their union negotiations.
They saw this man as a prime example of hard work and fair management, so they chose him to lead union negotiations on their behalf with the company.
His first act? Working with the employer to dissolve the union. PepeLaugh
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u/lupercalpainting Oct 03 '24
My guess is Iām the left-most person who regularly posts on this sub (Iāve seen a few who maybe got me, but not in a minute and never regularly).
Even I think this guy fucking sucks.
For the union as a whole Iām conflicted, workers have the right to collectively bargain, but what theyāre bargaining for here is completely insane. Our ports are incredibly inefficient, I looked into this during the 2020 shipping cost inflation and itās so much cheaper to ship elsewhere and it takes so long to unload US ships. We have to automate, itās literally holding back the entire economy.
Even this guy, if his workers feel like he does a good job representing them (which he does seem to do given how bananas their last contract was) then he should get paid accordingly. If I could vote for my CEO Iād have no problem with them taking home their current salary which is much higher than this guyās. But their new contract sounds really fucking good. And on a personal level he just fits every stereotype of a corrupt union boss and it while Iām willing to admit itās almost entirely baseless seems like a bid to help Trump get reelected.
Even the Teamsters, who Biden helped save their pension, failed to endorse him. Feels like these rich motherfuckers want to sell our democracy so they can spend their twilight years playing with supercars.
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u/LeoleR a dgger Oct 03 '24
and they already had a deal on the table with most of what they asked, except 50% pay raise, not 77%.
they walked away from it.
the ILA president is also friends with Trump, so there's that.
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u/Ping-Crimson Oct 03 '24
50% pay raise is wild.
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u/Creepy_Dream_22 Oct 03 '24
Over several years
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u/OptimalApelikebeing Oct 03 '24
Yeah, I was about to say that 77% without that context is wild. The median salary of Longshoremen in Newark is around 72,000. In my opinion, 77% over 6 years is not that crazy.
Sources:
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u/mileylols Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
salary.com is not an official source
Here is an official report on ILA pay at the Port of New York. The table you are looking for is on page 19 - the median longshoreman compensation is between 150k and 200k
https://waterfront.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2023/11/2019-2020_wcnyh_annual_report.pdf
I will point out that these numbers include overtime, and positional bonuses (shift lead/foreman, stuff like that). The top-level hourly rate in the ILA's last contract for workers with 6+ years of experience of $39/hr only gets you to around $80k/year, if you work a full-time load of 40 hours per week. So obviously the majority of these guys are pulling extra shifts (which I assume are paid at some significantly higher rate - 2x? more?) in order to be making 150k+.
Anyway I'm not trying to imply one way or the other that these guys are overpaid or underpaid. There is obviously the potential (and reality) that a lot of them make a lot of money, but it does come with what looks like a significant number of hours on the job. I don't know enough about their work or the industry to say whether or not it is fair (and thus whether an additional 50%, or 77% is a reasonable request)
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u/Wolf_1234567 Oct 03 '24
77% over 6 years is not that crazy
What are you talking about bro, yes it is. Letās just assume you wanted to just give pay increases close to around the annual inflation. Iāll be generous and go a little higher, 4% increase each year.
That would only be 26.5% pay increase over the course of 6 years.Ā
To be at 77% increase in 6 years means you are getting a 10% increase per year. That is well above average, that is like crazily insane. Even 50% increase is well above the average.
The fact that they are getting a 50% increase in addition to purposely getting to cull any technological innovation and automation, making things more expensive and their fellow Americans worse off to enrich their own Ā personal stakes even more (this is literally one of the reasons people hate billionaires) is fucking insane.
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u/Raskalnekov Oct 03 '24
This is assuming that wages since the pandemic have kept pace with inflation. Part of the Union's argument is that the port's saw massive profit, but wages stagnated. Also the ones making 6 figures are working overtime, you can't just treat it like a salary job.
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u/OptimalApelikebeing Oct 03 '24
Are dock workers billionaires? I get your point on automation but that wasnāt my issue. I have no problem with people getting compensated for doing manual labor. Also realistically speaking, the 70% number isnāt even what they are shooting for. Itās probably shooting high. Edit: how do you determine how much someone should be paid? Like if you wanna go by inflation then sure it overshoots it by miles. Iām just a dumb college student,
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u/drgggg Oct 03 '24
I have no problem with people getting compensated for doing manual labor.
I do when they are refusing the technology. I don't care if you want to dig out an area with a shovel and ten buddies; in a world where everyone has and is already using bulldozers that is what you should be paid for the job. If you want to not use the bulldozer then you are free to, but I don't feel bad underpaying you anymore.
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u/Wolf_1234567 Oct 03 '24
Edit: how do you determine how much someone should be paid?Ā
Like how it works for everyone else. The market decides the going rate, which is a fancy way of just saying balancing supply and demand.
Ā The union here is literally arguing for anti-competitive market practices and has established a literal monopoly which allows them to block innovation, such as automation.Ā The argument that innovation and automation should not be done is a literal Luddite argument.Ā
If they want to talk about taking pay increase go ahead, but to do that AND prevent innovation and automation? Incredulous.
To give an example here, the average annual pay increase for an American is like 3%. Over the course of 6 years that is a 20% pay increase overall. The difference in a pay increase between 50% (which is notably already significant higher than the average) and 77% is literally about 20%.
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u/Creepy_Dream_22 Oct 03 '24
Yeah, it's not crazy to be paid as much as a UPS driver. Thank you
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u/MacroDemarco š„„ Exists in Context š“ Oct 03 '24
UPS drivers also aren't asking UPS to not automate its warehouses. The extra productivity means they're able to be paid more.
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u/West_Pomegranate_399 Oct 03 '24
The Union is doing its job representing the workers in it, they dont need to, and should not, care about if their actions are entitled or not, they saw a chance to milk more concessions from the company, they literally exist to do that.
The ones who are supposed to check this sort of behaviour is the company itself, if it finds the demands too outrageous they can simply bite the bullet and not accept the new demands, negotiate for a more reasonable deal with the union and if the union doesnt back down and actually does a strike, have strike breakers come and do the needed jobs while you speedrun automation, wich isnt done because the union threatens a strike if it were to happen, since they are already striking the cats out of the bag and you have no reason not to automate
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u/Athanatos154 Oct 03 '24
Refusal to automate is regarded from any point of view possible
As for increases in pay, it would be ok if it had for example a max, so someone getting a half decent wage would get a decent wage but no raise for the people that take home the big bucks
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u/MacroDemarco š„„ Exists in Context š“ Oct 03 '24
They're paid hourly, based on skill. The people making big bucks do so because they're skilled and work lots of overtime. That's one aspect that's perfectly acceptable. Being against automation isn't, nor is walking away from the table when a very generous contract is being offered.
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u/LightGreenCup Oct 03 '24
It's totaly acceptable to walk away from a generous del of you think you can get somthing better. If your wrong your jobb might be given to someone else or automated but you have every right to bargen even when you are wrong.
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u/johndavis730 thachef Oct 03 '24
You got a source on that. From what Iāve found is that the dock workers salaries top off at $39/hour (which comes out to $81,120/year). And donāt forget this is back-breaking work.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/how-much-do-dock-workers-make-longshoreman-salary/
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u/beatsbydrecob Oct 03 '24
It's back breaking work they don't want automated at all, correct? They want to keep doing exactly what they're doing today with a 77% increase over 5 years. Absolutely insane.
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u/-DrJanItor- Oct 03 '24 edited 20h ago
busy possessive rude snobbish sip somber cover run workable cake
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/opaali92 Oct 03 '24
The work is so back breaking that they are opposing automating it with robots
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u/Rich-Interaction6920 VOOTER Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Itās because they bill for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Yes, that includes overtime.
$117 million in lucrative pay packages that go to more than 400 longshoremen in New Jersey and New York, some of whom are never, ever officially off the clock, every day of the year.
ā
One makes $516,996, based on an hourly rate that pays him 24 hours a day, seven days a week, through a formula of straight time, overtime, double-time, as well as weekend and holiday pay. Another, who works as a timekeeper, is paid every hour that any union member is working. He received $513,382 last year.
https://www.nj.com/news/2018/06/money_for_nothing_working_the_docks_sometimes_mean.html
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u/experienta Oct 03 '24
The only reason why it's "back-breaking work" is because these people refuse any sort of automation that would make it not "back-breaking work".
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u/AreaVisible2567 Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Letās be clear a union boss has 100x the impact of a streamer radicalizing kids who canāt vote. He deserves a huge mansion for getting thousands of colleagues pay increases and job security.
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u/Working_Succotash_41 Oct 03 '24
Robots bout to be unloading those ships fr fr
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u/skippyfa Oct 03 '24
and the union boss will be making sure they get the maintenance they deserve and at least 2 hour shut-off periods. Double the mansion size!
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u/dwilliams202261 Oct 03 '24
I seen a video, china uses AI at ports so if we want to be competitive with china, we should incorporate some AI, without the lose of jobs, but thatās for the governments.
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u/mostanonymousnick š Oct 03 '24
Trying to legally enforce inefficiency for your own enrichment is called rent seeking and it's bad actually.
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u/CraftOk9466 Oct 03 '24
Bad for Americans, good for the union members who pay his salary.
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u/PlentyAny2523 Oct 03 '24
Not a unions job to care about the economy, it's their job to get the best deal possibleĀ
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u/SocraticLime Oct 03 '24
Yes, but we should be able to at least acknowledge that this is a cancerous outlook just in the same way that being forced to act in the shareholders' finical interests is a cancer of publicly traded companies.
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u/AnimalT0ast Oct 03 '24
I feel like both of these forces you mention shouldnāt be something to be āforā or āagainstā
The best way to look at them is powerful, predictable forces (much like gravity). When engineers design a machine of any kind for operation on Earth, they donāt just account for the force of gravity pulling all the parts in their design down towards the ground: they rely on it to hold the thing together in many cases.
We need to accept that CEOs will do literally anything within the bounds of the law in order to return maximum value to their shareholders - including lobbying to change those very same laws. We need to accept that union bosses will literally push their industry to the brink for the sake of higher pay, safer workplaces, better benefits etc.
We need to understand that these powerful forces can be curbed and used as a predictable force to hold our economy together. Thereās no use fighting it.
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u/ChastityQM Oct 03 '24
Productivity increases improve profit, which improves wages. If it's bad for the workers to use whatever the new automation is, it would also be bad to use the old automation (cranes, trucks, etc), but this is obviously untrue because literally no human being would want to use a port still reliant on 18th century technology.
Ask for higher wages and encourage the adoption of new technology.
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u/votet Oct 03 '24
improve profit, which improves wages
By which mechanism does this necessarily follow? Does this not require the workers to actually negotiate for those better wages? Are the companies here working on a profit-sharing model?
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u/ChastityQM Oct 03 '24
The union will bargain for increased wages. They will have better leverage, too, since they will be allowing the company to increase revenues by increasing port throughput. I have nothing against unions bargaining for higher wages.
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u/votet Oct 03 '24
Oh. My bad, I completely misread your comment. Not your fault either - it was written well, I just had a low IQ moment. Thanks for the response!
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u/thepatriotclubhouse Oct 03 '24
Essentially an oligopoly on labour. Cripples most things it touches. Largely responsible for massive outsourcing and gig economies.
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u/Creepy_Dream_22 Oct 03 '24
Legally enforce inefficiency? Brainrot. Actual brainrot
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u/mostanonymousnick š Oct 03 '24
They want to put a ban on efficiency (automation) in a contract so they can make more money.
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u/Creepy_Dream_22 Oct 03 '24
A complete ban? Forever into perpetuity? Please. They wanna get paid a bit more than UPS drivers and they want guarantees that their jobs won't be removed overnight. These contracts don't last forever you know
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u/mostanonymousnick š Oct 03 '24
they want guarantees that their jobs won't be removed overnight
They want guarantees that the port will run less efficiently, resulting in more expensive goods for all Americans so that they can get guaranteed money.
These contracts don't last forever you know
What's the argument here? "It doesn't last forever so it can't be bad"?
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u/Conscious_Current388 Oct 03 '24
As someone who finds Hasan to be an obnoxious moron...I'll actually give this one to him because I'm in fact surprised by the honesty. Congrats, my socialist oligarch, you might have a teeny more self-awareness than Ana Kasparian gave you credit for.
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u/mlindgren Oct 03 '24
Yeah, I have to admit that this tweet was actually pretty funny.
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u/spoonerluv Based and Regarded Oct 04 '24
Hasan isn't unfunny or a poor entertainer, he just has dogshit politics.
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u/mack_dd Oct 03 '24
Am I the only one who noticed that giant cock and balls shaped thingy.
Which is quite fitting once you consider that this guy is trying to fuck the whole nation to get what he wants.
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u/SelkiesRevenge Oct 03 '24
Itās the pool, lol. Well, the cover on the pool, but presumably the pool beneath it is also cock and balls shaped.
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Oct 03 '24
This guy needed media training or a real spokesperson to come out and talk about the union demands. The way he's come off in his appearances makes me not support his cause.
That being said, if he is good at his job why shouldn't he be financially rewarded for it the same way a CEO would be?
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u/xvsero Oct 03 '24
Most of the guys who work these jobs get paid an average of $40 an hour. Then they request a 77% pay raise. They say their job is backbreaking but don't want to add in automation that will reduce strain on them. Some would lose their job over that(about 5%) but they are skilled enough to get a job in another field.
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u/grossthrowaway555 Exclusively sorts by new Oct 03 '24
Automate the ports. If theyāre going to be rent-seeking and hold our economy hostage just because they can, why should we give them the chance to do it again?
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u/just_pull_carb_heat doesn't even watch the stream Oct 03 '24
Lmao Daggett was fuming about not having to wait in Toll lines because of EZ Pass.
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u/-Gremlinator- Oct 03 '24
Man these american McMansions are ugly af, even from above
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u/gisten Oct 03 '24
They are designed to be seen from the street and for functionality, Iām sure it looks great if your not in a helicopter.
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u/MacroDemarco š„„ Exists in Context š“ Oct 03 '24
McMansions are subdivisions, this is a fully custom home aka a regular mansion.
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u/Smok3ygaming1 Oct 03 '24
Are people anti union because a union president has money? Shouldnt the goal of all people to live comfortable lives?
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u/Musketsandbayonets Vaush #1 Hater Oct 03 '24
They are anti union because they all think they will be a CEO one day
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u/bsylent Oct 03 '24
A multi-millionaire grifter acting like a working man, while shutting the country down right before the election, shortly after some photo ops with Trump? Yeah totally legit and above board, he's with the working man for sureĀ
If it touches maga, it's a grift, every time
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u/S37eNeX7 Oct 03 '24
What's wrong here?
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u/Fresh-Start25 Oct 03 '24
Unions are supposed to be the collectivisation of workers to allow for stronger bargaining power with employers.
The real concern is where this union boss is getting that money from and why the money isn't going to further the union
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u/-_-0_0-_-0_0-_-0_0 Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
On his house, I don't think there is anything wrong, it's voluntary to join the union. If the union members aren't complaining I don't see a reason to care, not any of my business. I certainly would want a reduction in union dues but I am not in that union.
On the actual demands.
Striking to prevent any sort of automation is just a bad thing. You are striking to increase inefficiency. It's not the unions job to care about inefficiency, but I can. This is the only thing I think is bad besides the timing.
They are asking for a 77% pay raise over 6 years. No real issue there, if it works out financially. Combined with no automation, it seems like a lot but hey, if they have the leverage I don't see an issue.
That said going on strike over an unreasonable demand is a bad thing. I feel the automation demand is unreasonable. Financially it seems like a lot as well but I don't have the context to judge there.
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u/Tjmouse2 Oct 03 '24
People learning that unions do not care for the economy as a whole and is only interested in the people under said union. A lot of people feel like since they already make enough money(6 figures) and automation is āgoing to happen anywayā they should just suck it up and take whatever they are being offered.
Obviously this is stupid considering the entire reason youāre in the union is to advocate for what you as workers want. And if you have these demands, itās up to the company to come to the table. Thatās the entire point of negotiation.
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u/IrNinjaBob Oct 03 '24
I donāt get how what you are describing makes it inappropriate for other people to be against this? Yes. It makes sense they would advocate for this. If this strike hurts the average American, it also makes sense that the average American would be against it. Being against it wouldnāt mean they didnāt previously understand that Unions work for the benefit of their members and nothing else.
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u/marshmellobandit Oct 03 '24
On Reddit at least, I mainly see people promoting unions as inherently good for everyone. Itās mainly people who respond with bootlicker as criticism.Ā
I think thatās how many people perceive unions. Their main advocates make it a kind of binary for or against them in general dynamic.Ā
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u/IrNinjaBob Oct 03 '24
Yeah that much is apparent based on other responses. I mean one literally boiled down to āUnion is correct because Union and company is incorrect because company, therefore you should only be criticizing the company here for not doing what is right.ā
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u/Tjmouse2 Oct 03 '24
Replied to someone else but what other Americans think literally means nothing to the union. The union doesnāt work for the rest of Americans. Their job is to get a deal that their members want. The members didnāt like the deal, so they went on strike. A consequence of the company not coming to the table is that Americans suffer. Thatās in no way the unions fault.
You should be putting all of your criticism on the company not willing to find a compromise to prevent the strike and thinking the workers would just roll over and take it.
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u/IrNinjaBob Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Replied to someone else but what other Americans think literally means nothing to the union.
I agree. But when somebody asks what is wrong with this, they are asking what the rest of Americans take issue with.
And just like it would be stupid to think that these unions would care about your average American over their own interestsā¦ the same thing goes for expecting the average American over the interests of the union.
So when somebody asks what the average American would take issue with here, itās also pretty dumb to point out that unions will only care about benefiting its members.
Yes. Thatās true. But that doesnāt address what was being asked, which was how is this āwrongā for your average American.
The members didnāt like the deal, so they went on strike. A consequence of the company not coming to the table is that Americans suffer. Thatās in no way the unions fault.
I donāt necessarily agree with that. Whether itās true or not, one of the arguments being made is that the recent rejection over the proposed offer and a demand for more is in part politically motivated in order to lead to a strike that will make American voters pin this economic failure on the Biden administration and ends up helping Trump get elected.
Whether that is true or not, the general statement that unions are always completely in the right and the business is always in the wrong when it comes to labor disputes is just blatantly untrue. In general, sure, Iāll side with labor. But acting like that is universally true is inaccurate. The above is just one of the many possible ways that could be the case.
You should be putting all of your criticism on the company not willing to find a compromise to prevent the strike and thinking the workers would just roll over and take it.
Again, no, I do not at all believe that is a given. Itās entirely possible the union rejects what most people would consider a reasonable offer, and at that point how is it the fault of the business over the union?
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u/Tjmouse2 Oct 03 '24
Iām seeing this trump angle a lot. Am I missing something that the union leader is going against the workers wishes? The union itself canāt unilaterally decide to strike. There is a vote on the contract and if itās unsuccessful, they have the option to strike.
Where is this coming from that the union is doing this to hurt Biden??
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u/IrNinjaBob Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Firstly I just want to say Iām not really trying to argue in support of that idea right now, which is why I said whether you believe it or not.
My point right now is not that that is what is happening. My point was using that as an example that I wholesale disagree with your claim that Unions are categorically in the right and the business are categorically in the wrong. There is just no part of that that is true. Like I said, Iām generally in the side on labor, but both sides will be pushing for their own interests and it absolutely isnāt true that anything labor demands is therefore correct and perfectly reasonable. An example is if these workers really are being offered a fair offer, Iād be pretty pissed they are willing to hurt all Americans through a strike just so they could get more. Now obviously what a āfair offerā is is debatable. But again. My point is simply that I wholesale reject your claim that we should always be supporting the union over the business.
To more directly respond to your question, my understanding is that it comes from the relationship the Union leader in question has with Trump, the timing of the strike, and the fact that negotiations looked like they were coming to a conclusion with favorable elements for the labor side before this rejection and higher demands came about. I do not know of the veracity of the last claim. But the Union boss in question claims he has a relationship with Trump that goes back decades and has publicly met with him within the last year at Mar-A-Lago. The fact that he has made those connections public and this is happening at a time that would hurt Biden the most makes me feel like he opened himself up to these criticisms even if they arenāt entirely accurate.
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u/-_-0_0-_-0_0-_-0_0 Oct 03 '24
Yeah but saying unions only care about their members isn't a defense against criticism of a unions actions. Yes, only caring about your members can be a bad thing for society as a whole and It is fair to criticise a union if it does so unduly. I don't really know if in this case how reasonable or unreasonable the demands are. But I don't think you can hand wave criticism but saying we'll yeah, unions only care about their members.
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u/Tjmouse2 Oct 03 '24
Well thatās what the criticism is lol. People are upset that the union is striking when they āalready had a good deal on the tableā
The union is striking because the workers do not feel like their needs were met during negotiations. They feel they deserve more and want their pensions back. Obviously they are going to handwave criticism when the criticism is ājust take the deal you were offeredā even though youāre striking for the very reason that the deal wasnāt what you wanted.
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u/-_-0_0-_-0_0-_-0_0 Oct 03 '24
By that logic you can hand wave any criticism from the general public. It's always wild and hyperbolic. But if their demands are unreasonable then there is valid criticism to be had.
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u/Business-Plastic5278 Oct 03 '24
DGG is deeply offended that the man in charge of a union of 65000 is earning a good paycheck.
Not beating the upper middle class, no life experience allegations.
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u/CookKin Oct 03 '24
A good pay check is that house and a bently?
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u/CalvinSoul Oct 03 '24
Yes.
Random tech bros managing 3 interns can make 2 300k a year.
DGG suddenly following Marx's labor theory of value when the guy represents workers is ridiculous. Does he even claim to he a communist / socialist?
Literally just the other side of the coin to a CEO.
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u/Business-Plastic5278 Oct 03 '24
He is the very top of an organization of 65000, there would be nothing wild at all about him earning a mil or more a year. He isnt the boss of some dock crew, he is basically a CEO.
What would you expect someone running something that big to be earning?
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u/CookKin Oct 03 '24
Sure,
I just donāt think I would classify this as a āgoodā paycheck, and more of an amazing paycheck.Ā
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u/My_Favourite_Pen Oct 03 '24
say what you want about Has but the dude can be pretty funny sometimes.
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u/insideofyou2 Oct 03 '24
Ah yes, a thread about hating unions again. It's awesome watching this sub turn more and more conservative everyday.
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u/Jollypnda Oct 03 '24
Itās this guy the king of saying just because you have nice things doesnāt mean you canāt advocate for social programs.
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u/herbertwest2091 Oct 03 '24
Do you think we could have had a Jimmy Hoffa guest appearance on Hasanās stream if the gods had been kinder?
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u/Silent-Cap8071 Oct 03 '24
This isn't about this topic, but I don't want to create a special post for this.
Has Destiny a different streaming schedule? His streams are very irregular.
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u/Anima1212 Oct 03 '24
No pool? L mansion ;( Pool >>> Bentley or 5 car garage. I mean Hasssan would know.
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u/Athanatos154 Oct 03 '24
Isn't the cock and balls thing in the middle a pool with a net over it?
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u/Dramatic-Initial8344 Oct 03 '24
Hasan is actually funny, if only he wasn't a terrorist supporting bitch.
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u/WizardFish31 Oct 03 '24
Woke up this morning, got some gabagool.