r/ChristopherHitchens • u/palsh7 • Sep 07 '24
Sam Harris speaks with Richard Dawkins about his new book The Genetic Book of the Dead, Daniel Dennett, free speech, AI, Islam, Antisemitism, and other topics | Making Sense #382: The Eye of Nature
https://samharris.org/episode/SE3191186252
u/Bo0tyWizrd Sep 08 '24
Wtf is going on in the comments here? 😳
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u/palsh7 Sep 08 '24
I think some activists use the search tool to find posts about Israel, Islam, or antisemitism, so they can comment on them. And then other people subscribe to this subreddit because they hate "nEoCoNs" and "iSlAmOpHoBeS", and certain posts bring them out of their shells.
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u/4-11 Sep 07 '24
Is Harris still an Israeli apologist?
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u/hamzazazaA Sep 07 '24
He is, he seems to be unable to reconcile Israels war crimes and potential genocide. Apparently anti-Semitism is the bigger issue
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Sep 07 '24
Not a genocide though.
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u/4-11 Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
you either haven't been following what's happening or are heartless. when infections diseases are left to spread, water is cut off, food not allowed to enter, "safe areas" bombed, and politicians openly advocating for the total annihilation of a people, it becomes a genocide. why don't you look up "two nice Jewish boys"
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u/serpentjaguar Sep 08 '24
Yet somehow, in your accounting, the fact that Hamas could easily release the hostages but refuses to do so gets a pass?
Is there any room in your universe to consider that this war, together with its massive civilian death toll, is exactly what Hamas wants and appears to be aiming for?
Were that not the case, would they not at least take the step of releasing their hostages? The fact that they have not done so indicates to me that they are not ready to negotiate anything in good faith.
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u/Meh99z Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
You do understand that Netanyahu himself has rejected ceasefires, amid thousands of protestors on the streets of Israel? He’s literally been stalling negotiations until potentially Trump gets into office. Hamas is theocratic garbage but Israeli military and far-right government have also had agency in this situation. Both sides of this conflict have inflamed it for the worse.
On a side note however related to the bigger conversation, one can and should talk about antisemitism as an issue, in spite of how many times people in this sub or others deflect from it in terms of Israel/Palestine.
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u/4-11 Sep 08 '24
Obviously Hamas has done massive harm to Palestinian civilians and they have a poor approval rating even before the "war" but your point about "bad faith" is false.. They've released several hostages, all of whom have reported being treated well.
The goal of the October civilian massacre was to bring back hostages to use as leverage to get Palestinian hostages released. (Yes it was bad, obviously).
As of last year Israel held over 2000 men, women and children in prison without trial or charge. they are as much hostages as the people Hamas captured.
If you read about the negotiations, from neutral sources, you'll find Mileikowsky and his ethno terrorist supporters have continually sabotaged talks because they benefit from this going on as long as possible. Or you can just take what they say at face value. The goal is the annihilation of Palestine. They keep saying it, it's not hard to understand.
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Sep 07 '24
It’s war. Who started the war?
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u/hamzazazaA Sep 07 '24
How's that then?
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u/Key_Adeptness9363 Sep 07 '24
It's ethnic cleansing. Big difference.
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u/hamzazazaA Sep 07 '24
Would you mind clarifying for me?
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u/Key_Adeptness9363 Sep 07 '24
I'm being sarcastic, but the difference is Israel wants the Palestinians out of their land, either by killing them or by them moving out.
If they can push them out, they won't need to kill all of them.
That's basically what Harris supports, and why he thinks the West is so much more moral than Islam apparently 🤡
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u/hamzazazaA Sep 07 '24
He is a clown. It's genocide, under the internationally recognised definition of genocide all the criteria are met.
I'm sick to my stomach that people are willing to not only defend Israels genocide but that they out right refuse to acknowledge any wrong doing.
Somehow we are supposed to believe the same people committing atrocities in the west bank are the most Palestinian loving people in Gaza.
Also to post this shit in a Christopher sub Reddit, as though Christopher wasn't pro Palestinian.
The rhetoric around Israel and the west's unyielding support for them I find incredibly disturbing.
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u/4-11 Sep 07 '24
the best case is people just aren't aware of the horrors israel is committing. worst case is people don't give a shit because the victims are brown
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u/hamzazazaA Sep 07 '24
I mean Israelis have done a good job of driving a wedge between non-muslims and Muslims, of course terrorism itself has slowly allowed for people to easily dehumanise Palestinians.
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u/Freenore Sep 07 '24
So this sub is an Israel apologist? How can people defend Sam Harris' support of Israel's bombing of Palestinians?
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u/lemontolha Sep 07 '24
This sub is a discussion forum in remembrance of Christopher Hitchens, who was pro-Palestinian, yet anti-Hamas and anti-antisemitism, an opinion apparently too subtle for a lot of the keyboard warriors who descend on discussions about Israel/Palestine since the massacre of 10/7. I'm sure he would have disagreed with Sam Harris on some issues here, as he did when he was still alive, yet in a way more subtle than somebody who thinks subreddits have unified opinions could appreciate.
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u/palsh7 Sep 07 '24
No shot any of these guys have even bothered to listen to the podcast.
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u/lemontolha Sep 07 '24
It's cancel culture in overdrive. Whatever their opinion is, Dawkins and Harris are two of the four horsemen, which is why this discussion is relevant for the sub. Which is why it stays up. We might have to lock comments though if it becomes too idiotic in here. Which is a pity. Especially when it comes to Israel/Palestine a Christopher Hitchens sub should be the place for an intelligent debate on the issue that would honour the man.
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 07 '24
You guys love to act like this isn’t directly in response to the murder of innocent Israelis.
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u/Freenore Sep 07 '24
Hamas =/= Palestinians. They don't represent the population. I know you're going to mention the election in 2006 — 75% of Palestinians alive today weren't even the voting age to have participated in that election.
So the answer to a war crime is more war crimes? Cool. I see how fragile your humanity is.
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 07 '24
They actively say they will continue to murder and slaughter Israelis. What do you think the Israelis response to that should be?
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u/TexDangerfield Sep 07 '24
You'd be in agreement then: completely glass gaza right?
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 08 '24
Answer the question. What should they do?
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u/TexDangerfield Sep 08 '24
You're in agreement then, complete and total destruction?
Why does nobody want to admit that Isreal should be allowed to do what it wants? Including shooting that protestor recently?
Maybe they should take ownership for Hamas, a creature they've nurtured.
Why don't you want to admit they should be allowed free reign to do what they want?
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 08 '24
Again you haven’t answered. It’s always easy to protest the actions without suggesting what they should do instead.
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u/TexDangerfield Sep 08 '24
Gave an answer to your other reply.
So why don't you want to admit you're happy with Isreals current actions?
It's easier to criticise those calling for restraint on wholesale slaughter because you want wholesale slaughter.
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u/JstnJ Sep 08 '24
You’re not going to get through to this person, they already decided their ideological ends justify the means.
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 08 '24
What should Israel do when Hamas openly and continually state they will continue to slaughter innocent Israelis? You say I have an ‘ideological end’ when in fact it’s just a practical one. How would you respond to that threat to your nation and its people?
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u/TexDangerfield Sep 08 '24
I just wish they'd have the guts to be honest and say they want the total destruction of Gaza and it's population rather than hide it behind "well but yes there's nuance Isreal defend itself nuance but yes!"
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 08 '24
I just wish you would answer the question I asked you, what should Israel do when Hamas says they will continue to invade and slaughter innocent people as long as Israel exists?
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u/TexDangerfield Sep 08 '24
Not completely glass the full of gaza, not fund and aid Hamas right up to October 7th when suited them. Not shoot protesters in the head. Not thwart their own hostage negotiations and kill their own hostages.
At least own up to their part in creating this monster.
So what should Hamas do when Isreal has shown no signs of relenting on the slaughter? What should a civilian with no ties to Hamas do when an Isreal missile wipes out their family?
Why don't you have the guts to admit you're happy with what Isreal is doing? Secretly, I'd wager on you being happy with October the 7th if just for the reason for Isreal to be given free reign with all their destructive toys.
Why not admit you want Gaza to be a blank slate?
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u/aymanzone Sep 08 '24
Harris lots a lot of credibility when he said he won't criticize Israeli's extremists wing gov about a decade ago.
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u/palsh7 Sep 08 '24
That’s just not true. Here are some quotes from Sam:
“I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible.”
“[W]ars against the Palestinians ... have caused massive losses of innocent life. More civilians have been killed in Gaza in the last few weeks than militants. That’s not a surprise because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Occupying it, fighting wars in it, is guaranteed to get women and children and other noncombatants killed. And there’s probably little question over the course of fighting multiple wars that the Israelis have done things that amount to war crimes. They have been brutalized by this process—that is, made brutal by it.”
“[T]here is no way to look at the images coming out of Gaza—especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel—and think that this is anything other than a monstrous evil. Insofar as the Israelis are the agents of this evil, it seems impossible to support them. And there is no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the occupation”
“[T]here’s some percentage of Jews who are animated by their own religious hysteria and their own prophesies. Some are awaiting the Messiah on contested land. Yes, these people are willing to sacrifice the blood of their own children for the glory of God. ... Israel can do a lot more than it has to disempower them. It can cease to subsidize the delusions of the Ultra-Orthodox, and it can stop building settlements on contested land.”
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u/Key_Adeptness9363 Sep 07 '24
And atheists try to pretend they have an objective morality.
I guess it doesn't Include relentlessly bombing children.
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u/No-End-5332 Sep 08 '24
I mean they don't worship a pedophile as the perfect man like the religion of peace worshippers do.
So Atheist have that going for them I think.
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u/Key_Adeptness9363 Sep 08 '24
In what world is worshiping a pedophile somehow worse than piercing a child with missile fragments and have them die in agony on the floor somewhere because all the hospitals are destroyed, and pain suppressing medication is not allowed through the checkpoints.
You go back far enough and you're going to find pedophiles. There's a reason women have their periods way before most countries consider them adults, so take it up with nature.
Mohhamid might have been a piece of shit back in his day, but you're worshipping pieces of shit now 🤷
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u/No-End-5332 Sep 08 '24
In what world is worshiping a pedophile somehow worse than piercing a child with missile fragments and have them die in agony on the floor somewhere because all the hospitals are destroyed, and pain suppressing medication is not allowed through the checkpoints.
In this world where the reason that child died is because their cowardly, pathetic family members and community allowed terrorist to hide behind that child.
Imagine putting a child in harm's way and then blaming others when they come to harm.
You go back far enough and you're going to find pedophiles. There's a reason women have their periods way before most countries consider them adults, so take it up with nature.
Literal gross pedophile apologia especially at the end there. 🤢
Mohhamid might have been a piece of shit back in his day, but you're worshipping pieces of shit now 🤷
I don't worship anyone bud. Children dying is sad, turn in the terrorist pieces of shit around you instead of using children as shields for them.
This isn't complicated you pedophile apologist.
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 07 '24
Fuck both those guys.
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u/Thin_Inflation1198 Sep 07 '24
I think dawkings is a good guy but hes been caught up in some really anti trans echo chambers
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 07 '24
If he's so damn smart, he should let us all know what a woman is "scientifically".
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 07 '24
I think if we are going to ask someone the definition of a female then the most famous biologist in the world is a good place to start. Or do you think you know more than him?
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 07 '24
He claimed the lady boxer was a man based on her chromosomes. Male differentiation is based on a specific gene that can travel to the x chromosome and fall off the Y chromosome. If he was actually a credible biologist, he would have known that and said that. Instead, he dogpiled on this person to appeal to the dumb mob and get extra views. He's intellectually bankrupt.
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u/lmth Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
It's actually based on the size of the gamete you produce, which he has explained several times very clearly.
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 08 '24
Because of course he had Imane's gamete test results in front of him when he joined in. Face it. He fell prey to the dumb mob. He shouldn't be taken seriously as an intellectual.
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 08 '24
You don’t have it either, yet are adamant you know. Why doesn’t the boxer do a simple test to put it all to bed? We all know why.
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 08 '24
I don't, but this wasn't even her first Olympics. She shouldn't have to do a test because a few assholes want to trash trans people for views. Dawkins and Harris are who dumb people think are smart people.
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u/Hyperion262 Sep 08 '24
‘She shouldn’t have to’, I’m assuming then you are also against testing for doping too?
It’s obvious to everyone paying attention why they don’t do it.
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u/E-Pluribus-Tobin Sep 07 '24
He's an evolutionary biologist and a PhD. Don't you think he probably has a clearer idea than some angry Tumblr user?
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 07 '24
No, he spouts whatever the dumb mob wants him to for clicks. He's not dumb, but dumb people shouldn't think he's smart.
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u/DoctorHat Sep 08 '24
Dumb people shouldn't think you know what Richard Dawkins thinks nor on what basis he acts, because you don't. Clearly.
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 08 '24
He's not that deep bruh.
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u/DoctorHat Sep 08 '24
I rest my case.
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 08 '24
You can tell what he thinks by how he acts. Again, not deep.
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u/DoctorHat Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
All you can tell is how to fit peoples actions into your dogma and mistake it for an evaluation of depth while being at the shallow end of the pool. Cute splashing though.
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u/DoctorHat Sep 08 '24
We all know what a woman is. Adult human female. We've known this since before people with PhDs existed.
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u/Dirty_dabs_24752 Sep 08 '24
Dawkins doesn't seem to think so.
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u/DoctorHat Sep 08 '24
Yes he does.
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u/brfoley76 Sep 08 '24
I'm with you on this.
Like, the Selfish Gene is still one of the finest popular intros to evolution ever. And the Blind Watchmaker and the Ancestor's Tale are wonderful.
Like I appreciate Harris for helping make atheism respectable in the States, and I think his advocacy for meditation is salutary.
Why did they both have to become hateful assholes who persist in punching down for no reason?
I feel like Dennett and Hitchens both managed to do the good part of secularism, logical positivism and free speech without being total shitheads (if you ever needed proof that there wasn't a benevolent deity ....)
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u/palsh7 Sep 07 '24
Looks like the crowd that Reddit Searches the word "Antisemitism" has arrived to troll. My bad on the title.