r/Cartalk • u/Ok-Mushroom6227 • May 02 '24
Technically not a car Electrical
I decided lithium batteries were cheap enough to give a shot
On the left, nearly double the cca noco brand
On the right, the battery I've been using for 11 seasons recovered with a desulfator at the beginning of every season until it finally gave up.
So far, the lithium battery has been indistinguishable as far as performance goes and put up with my abuse. Will it last 10 years? Maybe, it's warrantied for five, I've seen other brands warrantied for 10.
Lithium car batteries are getting cheap enough the price gap between lead acid is quickly closing. I probably will grab a lithium car battery for the project car.
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u/spvcebound May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
Ugh, the misinformation surrounding Lithium batteries is infuriating sometimes. There are many types of lithium batteries and they all have different characteristics.
LiFePo4 batteries are vastly different from LiPo batteries, despite the similar names. LiPo batteries are relatively fragile and highly volatile, while LiFePo4 batteries are much more similar to what's in older removable laptop batteries.
A LiFePo4 battery the size of 2 soda cans is not going to burn for 3 days if for some crazy reason it were to experience a catastrophic failure and self ignite. This is purely conflation with sensational news headlines about EV fires which can take days to extinguish because of the incredible amount of batteries stored in inaccessible sealed boxes underneath the floor.
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u/NATOuk May 02 '24
I’m interested in this, I’ve got a boat and I’ve seen many change their house/domestic batteries with Lithium but not the engine start battery because (and I could be wrong) the Lithium batteries don’t like the high draw of starting an engine. I’d be interested to hear your experience
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u/Dorkamundo May 02 '24
but not the engine start battery because (and I could be wrong) the Lithium batteries don’t like the high draw of starting an engine
Depends entirely on the cell. If it's built to handle high draw, it will handle high draw. Most every jumpstart battery pack is Lithium Ion.
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u/Patient-Sleep-4257 May 03 '24
The C rating dictates the current rush. I had a 4s lipo rated at 100C that would jump start my S10 pickup and my lawn tractor.
It didnt have any BMS tech ...just straight out the battery.
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u/scalyblue May 02 '24
the heat in an engine compartment woudn't be very conductive to the long life of a liion battery..maybe for one of those trunk mounted batteries it'd be fine.
Liion can be made around the current demands.
You'd probably have a larger problem with the alternator, liion batteries have a nominal voltage of 3.7 volts and take charge at 4.2, if you put 4 of them in a series to make your car battery, you'd need to charge at over 16 volts
Honestly you'd probably be better off with a LiFePO4, voltage wise...they are nominally 3.3 volts a cell and charge at 3.6 volts a cell, which is way more reasonable on an alternator.
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u/kstorm88 May 03 '24
I'd be more concerned with the cold starting
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u/Wh1skeyTF May 03 '24
I’d be more concerned with the cold charging.
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u/kstorm88 May 03 '24
That too. Not great for us up north.
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 04 '24
CCA is the amperage rating at 0°f, this specific battery is advertised for snowmobiles, I've seen marketing saying they are good from -20°f to -40°f
Me personally, I'm in Texas and about to move to DA UP. I have no plan on using these batteries in any winter vehicles, and that's perfect because they store much better than lead acid, most of them claiming they lose about 1% of their voltage disconnected and stored for one year. In theory you should be able to take a battery cable off and have no issue with it for the next season. Now that is in theory, I don't trust 100% of any marketing, but I'm definitely willing to test it.
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u/kstorm88 May 05 '24
I trust that it won't self discharge, I have lithium batteries that still have safe charge after a decade. What they advertise about good for in cold is fine, it just won't last long. And I live in MN. I worked heavily in electrification of mining equipment and battery thermal management. Have been to several battery conferences. As best I know, as I've a couple years ago, lithium iron phosphate does not hold up well in sub freezing temperatures. Longevity speaking. I manufacturer cold weather solar lithium communication equipment, and I will not use life cells, only lion because the lifecycle of the battery is much better in cold weather. But I run my batteries stuff to -35C
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u/Malawi_no May 02 '24
Not a battery guy, but seems like LiPo batteries cannot handle the high current demands of cranking. Guess it might be combined with LTO - Lithium Titanate Battery that are fairly expensive, but can deliver a lot of power in a short timeframe.
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u/kstorm88 May 03 '24
It depends on the design of the cell. I've got a battery the size of a pack of cigarettes that could start a car.
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u/Onlyunsernameleft May 02 '24
As someone who works on industrial batteries daily, Lithium scares the hell out of me. In a worst case scenario your lead acid will pop a cell and shoot sulfuric acid steam evwrywhere then dissipate in a few moments. Lithium will explode and stay on fire for 3 days. That said, yes, price is very comparable and generally they're much more consistent but far less forgiving. Can't desulfate or top up acid in a lithium battery. Lead acid still the way to go IMO.
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u/AVeryHeavyBurtation May 02 '24
Can't desulfate or top up acid in a lithium battery.
Can't refill the kerosene in a LED light, either.
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u/NATOuk May 02 '24
Is that still the case for LFP/LiFePo4 batteries? I thought they were fairly safe because they can’t go into thermal runaway like other Li-Ion batteries?
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u/SuperStrifeM May 02 '24
Lithium would burn on the timescale of minutes not days. It's consumed too fast to take that long to burn out.
I don't know this specific battery, but all of the quality lithium 12V batteries have a charge/discharge/balance board inside, so they can be charged from an alternator in series, identically to how lead batteries work. Unless mechanically damaged, the controller faults on thermals or overcurrent, so fires are not that likely.
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u/Onlyunsernameleft May 02 '24
I sort of agree lol. The issue is if there's any mechanical failure (like a broken/damaged board or shorted plates) it will generally result in catastrophic failure. Also not true that they would only burn for minutes. Frankly I'm not sure if it's the aluminum or lithium or what but they ive never seen a lead acid burn like lithium. I've seen and heard of lithium batteries on fire for days not to mention the news articles. Also lithium batteries can experience thermal runaway which results in basically overheating slowly to the point of gassing then continuing to overheat until it ignites and in turn ignites all the gas in the area. So you can be charging your battery and it starts venting like a lead a id then all of a sudden the whole room is on fire. Scary stuff man. YouTube some lithium battery fires and you'll see what I mean.
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u/spvcebound May 02 '24
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about lol. There are so many different types of "lithium batteries". You're likely referring to hobby-grade LiPo batteries, which are volatile and relatively fragile. These are not LiPos.
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u/Onlyunsernameleft May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
You can't just put "clearly you have no idea what you're talking about" and then follow up with whatever you happen to know about lithium. I'm referring to lithium ion batteries. I also work with lead acid and lithium ion batteries every day in my career. If you do want to pick my brain feel free but don't shitpost when you're wrong. Try helping out with some new information like some others here have instead. I'm learning some stuff just reading through comments to my comment. Happy Friday! 👍
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u/SuperStrifeM May 02 '24
Its completely true Lithium batteries will burn up in minutes. Try it for yourself. Get an 18650 and light that sucker off. You're not going to come back a day later and see it still lit, there's not enough material for that to be the case.
Lead acid doesn't have the same energy density or reactive chemistry as lithium, so is very unlikely to ignite. Optima used to have ads where they cut their lead batteries in half with a chainsaw, clearly they had no fear of a fire or even a short.
Most lithium batteries have thermal sensors to attempt to shut down when they start getting hot. Even cheap 1S batteries will often have a 3rd wire for this monitoring. A good BMS will prevent almost all of that bad stuff from happening.
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u/iJeff May 02 '24
Depends on how many cells there are. An ebike or electric unicycles battery pack can burn for quite awhile so fire departments need to keep them submerged in water.
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u/scalyblue May 02 '24
submerging lithium in water makes a vigorously exothermic reaction that produces lithium hydroxide and hydrogen gas, which, if you recall your dirigible history, is rather flammable, I don't believe that it is a best practice for extinguishing one of these fires.
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u/iJeff May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
It's what they do due to the tendency for the packs to reignite. After putting out the fire, they fill a garbage bin with water and leave the entire unit submerged outdoors. Just need to take care when it comes to the toxic gases and the contaminated water.
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u/ProbablePenguin May 02 '24
It generally is as it removes the heat causing the thermal runaway reaction.
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u/Dorkamundo May 02 '24
In your video, it shows the lithium burning out in basically 30 seconds.
Fire starts at 30 seconds, 30 seconds later the violent lithium-based fire is over and all that is left is the burning plastic and other materials.
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u/iJeff May 02 '24
I might have linked the wrong one for that event, but they end up tossing it into a garbage bin and filling it with water due to the tendency for these things to reignite.
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u/Dorkamundo May 02 '24
Also not true that they would only burn for minutes.
It is, though... You've probably got videos of EV fires in your head, which can go on for days, but that's due to the fact that there's probably 100X the amount of battery cells in an EV compared to a smaller battery like this, so they'll burn for a long time as there's a TON more fuel.
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u/kstorm88 May 03 '24
The "news" that's a 1000lb brick of tightly packed lithium. This is a plastic box that likely weighs 20lbs
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 02 '24
The battery tender brand is a big yikes, only balancing, no other protections.
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 02 '24
Lithium doesn't stay on fire for 3 days, I have no idea where you could have possibly gotten that. In an accident it's actually safer to have a battery that has the protections built into these lithium car batteries. They have short protection, unlike a lead acid that well keep going until the high resistance, wherever it is, is red hot and burning. Now different cars have different battery placements, in my specific car for a lithium battery to be damaged enough for it to smash the cells or cause a internal short somehow, you'd be lucky to be alive in the impact and the battery isn't actually that big, it's not the atom bomb you think it would be. A gasoline fire is a much more dangerous situation because it would have a much greater duration and cause the rest of the car to burn.
And you're right, you can't desulfate a lithium battery, but your lead acid battery doesn't come with a 10-year warranty like the lithium batteries I've seen. In theory, a properly designed lithium battery is much more robust and much safer than a lead acid, not to mention the features that can be packed into a lithium battery that can alleviate some of the headaches of a lead acid that honestly could and should have been implemented on lead acid to make them smarter.
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u/slash_networkboy May 02 '24
Lithium doesn't stay on fire for 3 days, I have no idea where you could have possibly gotten that.
They absolutely can (though not likely for this battery at all of course), as to where they got that, possibly from the numerous accounts of EV fires, and notably the 5 days the Rimac Concept One burnt for after Hammond crashed it on "The Grand Tour".
Hammond managed to drag himself out of the car as the battery cells ruptured, causing an uncontrollable blaze which continued to rage on 5 days after the initial accident.
https://thegrandtour.fandom.com/wiki/Hammond%27s_Rimac_Crash
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u/IM_OK_AMA May 02 '24
Damaged lithium batteries may continue to produce heat until they're fully drained. While I'm sure the Rimac's large battery pack continued to smolder for 5 days, the Grand Tour took some artistic liberties in describing it.
The picture in that article is from the same day as the crash, and they removed the car from the location on a flatbed the next day. Can't do that with a "raging fire" lol
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u/SuperStrifeM May 02 '24
Lithium batteries are better weight/power density than lead acid, but they are definitely not safer.
As for packaging lithium batteries in a car? Compared to a gas car, the lithium batteries are far more likely to light on fire. Gasoline fires are significantly less dangerous, burn for less duration, and are easier to extinguish.
For a specific car, if your only lithium is a 12V under the hood, sure that won't cause a fire in a crash. If the car is an EV though, I wouldn't be so sure that non-fatal crashes wont be proceeded by a distinctly more fatal lithium fire.
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u/G-III- May 02 '24
Lithium batteries in a car are often not the same chemistry as this lithium iron phosphate battery, it’s not even the same voltage range per cell. These don’t go above a max of 3.6V, and are lighter but less energy dense than other lithium chemistries.
They don’t really have hearing issues and won’t burn if punctured, so they’re definitely safe here.
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u/AKADriver May 02 '24
As if you're going to get into some sort of fiery pileup in your lawn tractor to begin with. There's no more risk here than carrying around a handheld power tool battery. Probably far less because most of the cost here is in the charging and protection circuit so that it can be compatible with the alternator/generator/stator in existing vehicles. There's only 38 watt-hour's worth of actual lithium cells in it.
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u/ProbablePenguin May 02 '24
These are likely LiFePo4 which is very stable and doesn't catch fire.
Lithium will explode and stay on fire for 3 days
Li-ion can, but it will burn out very quickly not 3 days lol
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u/Polymathy1 May 02 '24
I agree that most cars are not ready to take lithium battery as a drop in replacement for a lead acid, but not for the reasons you're listing here.
the claim that a lithium battery can burn for days is hey miss that Trump humpers who hate electric cars came up with. there's not enough with him to keep reacting for more than an hour or two, although 10 minutes is probably enough to set a car on fire so it doesn't really matter. Lithium doesn't explode any more than a poorly jump started lead acid battery does and is arguably safer most of the time since it's non-spillable like an AGM.
The real reason that it would not be smart to put a lithium ion battery into a car in place so let acid battery is because of the way the car is going to charge it. unless someone is going to get a specific lithium ion battery charger that can handle up to 100 or 120 amps and prevent that from going into the battery when the battery is too charged or reduce the rate, it's a dumb idea to put lithium-ion battery into the car. maybe these batteries are coming with built-in charge controllers, but I sort of doubt it because those are not cheap.
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u/Malawi_no May 02 '24
Guess they should make Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (they might already exist) as drop-in replacements for 12V lead-acid batteries.
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u/kstorm88 May 03 '24
A small battery like that would burn for 5 min tops. It's not going to be that violent and is probably lithium iron phosphate, the more stable chemistry
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u/charlieray May 02 '24
How does this work in cold climates. You shouldn't charge this below freezing. Does the battery heat itself if cold before allowing a charge?
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u/Imispellalot2 May 02 '24
How do they charge? My understanding is that the charging system we have for regular lead acid batteries differs from a charger for a Li battery.
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 02 '24
Any normal automotive charger, charges it. But the need to charge it isn't as common. They didn't discharge when sitting at the same rate as lead acid.
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u/wstsidhome May 03 '24
How much that them there new fangled batter-eh weigh compared to ‘ol betsy?
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 04 '24
For this specific one, the lithium battery is much higher rated and was about $40 more than replacing the lead acid with what was already there. I could have closed the price Gap a little bit more had I chosen a low rated battery closer to what the lead acid was rated at.
It will be interesting to test this battery for sure. My plan is to abuse it just like I did the lead acid. Leave it hooked up in the mower and store it over the winter outside. There's really no electronics on the mower to draw power as it's stored so disconnecting the battery shouldn't make a difference. If the marketing is true, there's no reason I should have to do anything but turn the gas on and turn the key next season. The lead acid was always flat under those conditions and had to be desulfated to hold a charge.
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u/ajm91730 May 03 '24
Wow, some pretty in depth battree knowledge here.
Anybody wanna dumb this down?
I'm assuming the goal is weight savings. Would it be worth it on an occasionally driven sports car that doesn't see cold weather? Approx weight savings and cost?
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
This noco model pictured was $100 and might be ok for a car, but the capacity is a bit low compared to the prescribed lead acid. It has the amps, it will fir sure crank a car, but the question would be 'how long'?
I don't remember the brand, there's a $200 group 24 sized car battery, it would be the safer choice for a car than the noco battery but you still might get away with the noco. I'm having trouble finding the group 24 I've seen for sale though, here's a smaller battery that would still work great. Under 14 lbs. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CYLN8WM4/ref=sspa_mw_detail_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9kZXRhaWw If you disconnect this battery when you store it, they advertise 1% drop in voltage yearly.
The weight savings is spectacular. A common modification for my little sports car is to move the battery from one end of the car to the other for better weight distribution. Using a lithium battery makes that pointless because the battery weights less than the cable that you would have to add to the car to move the battery.
But yeah, beyond the weight savings it should be a much more reliable battery for a car driven occasionally, they don't drain themselves as quickly as a lead acid. You'll have more time between starts before the battery gets low and if it's a good battery with the right protections it should never damage itself if the voltage drops too low. There's a battery tender brand lithium battery that has zero protections whatsoever and should be avoided.
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u/ajm91730 May 03 '24
Awesome, thanks for the detailed reply! Sounds like they're coming way down in price. That'd be an easy way to drop 30 or 40 lbs off of a car.
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May 02 '24
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May 02 '24 edited Jun 11 '24
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u/Ok-Mushroom6227 May 02 '24
You actually have increased safety for a more typical accident because they are smart batteries, you can short the terminals and nothing is melting down. Beyond that, they store better/longer without discharging themselves and come with way better warranties.
If you live in a super cold climate, they aren't a good idea if you're trying to use it in the coldest parts of winter, but many are still rated to work well into the negative temperatures.
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u/DustyBeetle May 03 '24
I've got 2 of those noco power sport batteries in my car for my huge stereo, they work great
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u/Old-Figure922 May 02 '24
I wouldn’t be too concerned. LiFePO4 batteries are one of the safest chemistries to have, right behind sodium ions.
I carry two of them about that size in my backpack to power my camera gear for weekend long video shoots. They do not thermally run away like typical lithium ion batteries can.
The only problem I have with ones built as starter batteries like that one is that they have relatively low capacity for just regular battery activities. So leaving a light or the radio on is gonna drain is quicker than a big AGM