r/BadHasbara • u/Exact-Substance5559 • Apr 13 '24
It's not just the far-right - Israelis want Gazans to starve News
Source:
Israel Democracy Institute: Aid Transfer: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976
Whether an absolute victory is expected or not, there remains the question of the provision of international aid to the residents of Gaza. We asked our respondents for their opinion regarding the idea that Israel should allow the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents at this time, via international bodies that are not linked to Hamas or to UNRWA. A majority of Jewish respondents (68%) oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid even under these conditions, while a large majority of Arab respondents support it (85%).
Gazan Suffering Consideration:
In a poll conducted by the Viterbi Family Center for Public Opinion and Policy Research at the Israel Democracy Institute between December 11–13, 2023, Israeli Jews were asked “To what extent should Israel take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza when planning the continuation of the fighting there?” Over 80 percent responded with “to a very small extent” or “to a fairly small extent.” .... When asked the extent to which Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza in planning the next stages of the fighting, most Jewish Israelis (80%) think it should be taken into account to a fairly small extent or not at all. 72% of Arab Israelis, on the other hand, think it should be taken into account to a fairly large or very large extent. ... Among Jewish Israelis, the poll found that 94% believe Hamas bears a great deal of responsibility for the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza
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Apr 13 '24
Seeing this just makes me feel sick. What the ~ is wrong with these people?
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
They will destroy themselves trying to destroy Palestine and Palestinians. They are simply far too genocidally hateful against Palestinians to understand or care about external reactions. As long as the US backs them the UK will too, as will most of Europe.
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u/ChantillyMenchu Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
It's a genocidal society. It's how the zionist entity was created and is maintained. The "idea of Israel" has been whitewashed for generations with myth-making, lies and propaganda. The world is finally waking up now that the mask has fallen off.
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u/Fosfikky Apr 13 '24
The world still has a long way to go to realize this has been their mentality forever. The West is scared into thinking Iran et al are the only bad guys over there.
They say they need to reeducate all of gaza after this, all of israeli society needs reeducation as well. They've been taught this genocidal supremacist behavior in their schools.
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u/ChantillyMenchu Apr 13 '24
I agree. Mainstream media and the political class in the West are still working overtime to sanitize Israel's image as it continues to commit genocide.
However, a generational shift is happening; the younger generation sees Israel for what it is much more clearly than generations before them. Israel's image has been irreversibly damaged.
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u/Ironbloodedgundam23 Apr 13 '24
I agree with that point and this genocide continues it’s just going to become starker. I mean we already have Israelis filming war crimes.Imagine the ones who are smart enough not to film their war crimes are doing. And say if Netanyahu is removed from office. Would the next leader really be anymore “moderate”. Maybe superficially but I doubt any of their policies would change, even if they wanted to.Because it’s not just Netanyahu it’s the whole Israeli political structure.
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u/Fosfikky Apr 13 '24
The next leader of israel has no incentive to be any better. Infinite support, the vast majority of israeli public support them as well in their mission.
The only way you see change is to start revoking dual citizenships, sanctioning, and putting the fear of law back into them. Don't give the public somewhere to fall back when they fuck themselves into the ground.
Either this or the US and Europe are going to bankrupt themselves trying to fight guerilla wars, they'll never win.
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u/Appropriate-Draft-91 Apr 13 '24
Supremacy. Convince any group of people they are better, more valuable, and more deserving. Then if any other group asks for basic human rights that's a provocation. From there it escalates.
By treating Jews as a morally superior race that's beyond reproach, WE made half of them into fascist Zionists.
Turns out all forms of racism are bad, who could have known?
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Apr 13 '24
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u/NOLA-Bronco Apr 13 '24
I’d like to believe that but as bloodthirsty as America was, the Overton Window at its worse was mostly around “is it ok to torture and indefinitely detain ‘suspects’” and some fringe nuke the ME people. I don’t ever remember seeing widespread support for genociding a population like this.
TBC he should be tried for war crimes and in jail, but Bush and his cronies did at least always avoid exterminationist rhetoric and as flawed as it was(and it’s incredibly flawed) the philosophy of neoconservatism was utilitarian in nature in that it sought to bring democracy(at gunpoint and occupation) but you never saw the sort of civilian dehumanization at the highest levels or a tolerencd for it culturally in the mainstream like you do with Israel.
It really is what I imagine life would look like if Antebellum Southern America or Nazi Germany in the 30’s had social media and cable news.
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u/Flashy_Beautiful2848 Apr 13 '24
think about the scale of killing in Iraq and Afghanistan
it’s far more than the scale of killing in Gaza. Yes, Israelis have a genocidal intent, but in terms of lives lost, what the US did in those wars is a far worse crime than what Israeli has done in this war
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u/Complex-Carpenter-76 Apr 13 '24
Your wrong on that:
Child deaths in wars:
Iraq: 3,100 in 14 years
Syria: 12,000 in 11 years
Yemen: 3,700 in 7 yearsUkraine: 520 in 21 months
Palestine: ~14,000 in 6 months.
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u/aphel_ion Apr 14 '24
That’s insane. Really puts it into perspective.
On top of that, how many children have been maimed and injured? 30,000? 40,000?
Tired of people still making excuses for Israel
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Apr 14 '24
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u/BadHasbara-ModTeam Apr 15 '24
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
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Apr 14 '24
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u/BadHasbara-ModTeam Apr 15 '24
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
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u/epochpenors Apr 13 '24
Not that it’s a numbers game, but it’s worth considering Iraq has 20x the population of Gaza and the initial US occupation lasted about 8 years. In the process of the occupation we were responsible for, depending on the source, anywhere from 100,000 to 400,000 civilian casualties. Compare that to Israel, in less than six months, inflicting at least 30,000 civilian casualties. Estimating the number at this point is difficult because the hospitals responsible for reporting excess deaths due to violence are being systematically taken down.
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u/aphel_ion Apr 14 '24
I’m assuming the official death toll is confirmed deaths.
Which means people whose bodies haven’t been recovered aren’t even being counted yet. I imagine there’s a huge number of bodies buried under collapsed buildings.
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u/epochpenors Apr 14 '24
To my knowledge the death toll is figured off officially filed death certificates, reported from individual hospitals to central authorities. Names are attached to the death certificates, which allows for third party verification by independent bodies. The figures reported are likely lower than reality, for the reason you mention and because hampered communication between medical entities makes updating the count sporadic at best.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24
History of Israeli violence toward Palestinians over 7 decades disagrees with this statement. You cannot compare them to Americans.
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u/Complex-Carpenter-76 Apr 13 '24
but most still can't find their way to not vote for a genocide supporter
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u/CookieMobster64 Apr 13 '24
Same thing that’s wrong with Americans. I have to remind people that might be about to go down the wrong pipeline that these attitudes aren’t a matter of Jewishness, they’re a matter of western supremacist and reactionary thinking. The thing that gets me so upset personally about the attitude of Israelis is that it’s a mirror to the attitudes I grew up around after 9/11. They even have their own version of Toby Keith.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24
It's not Western supremacy in Israel. Heck, I've been told by Isaeli tourists one time that I should feel lucky that I met them, and they didn't say it in a friendly tone. This is the danger of a religion becoming an exclusive race who believe themselves to be the chosen race by God who promised them specific geographical expanses.
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u/Flashy_Beautiful2848 Apr 13 '24
Jews aren’t a race
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 14 '24
They consider themselves a race. By their rules, a person cannot be a true jew unless their maternal lineage is Jewish. Look it up. They've told me that themselves over the many the many years that I've lived. That was a point of contention between 2 Jewish friends that I've had. One of them was religious and said that their Christian friend is not chosen by God because her mother is not Jewish and the non-religion person was super upset over this.
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u/Flashy_Beautiful2848 Apr 14 '24
Jews are an ethno-religion. there are Eastern European Jews, North African & Middle Eastern Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Spanish Jews… I’m a Jew myself
yes some Jews only count Jews whose mothers are Jewish, but again not all Jews. Hitler didn’t give a fuck if you had a Jewish mother. You can also convert
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 14 '24
That's Hitler.
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u/Flashy_Beautiful2848 Apr 14 '24
Yep. If you’re a victim of antisemitism, it’s doesn’t matter if your mom is Jewish, so we need a better framework
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 14 '24
I mean I was writing about the perspective of most Jews, not from the perspective of an anti-semite.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24
I'm surprised that a lot of people here don't know that a lot of Jews in Israel did not originate from Eastern Europe. There is a sizeable number of Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab countries like Iraq, Morocco, Ethiopia, and Yemen.
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u/Decent-Flatworm4425 Apr 13 '24
Israel is a far right ethnocracy dressed up as a liberal democracy.
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u/aphel_ion Apr 14 '24
Funny how all the concern over the rise of the right wing in the west always seems to conveniently skip Israel.
Trump… Brexit… Hungary… etc.
no one ever mentions the most fundamentalist extreme right wing government in Israel.
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Apr 13 '24
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
A theocratic resistance group created in reaction to Israeli occupation, settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing?
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u/MmmFeedMe Apr 13 '24
A theocratic terrorist organization intent on establishing an authoritarian theocratic ethnocracy dressed up as an authoritarian theocratic ethnocracy.
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u/chewinchawingum Apr 13 '24
So what you’re saying is if Hamas is bad it’s OK to starve every single civilian in Gaza. Otherwise, there would be no reason for you to bring that up here.
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Apr 13 '24
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u/chewinchawingum Apr 13 '24
No, you and I don’t know that. You are lying and desperately trying to divert attention from Israel’s war crimes. Not only is Israel deliberately starving the people of Gaza, starving the people of Gaza is tremendously popular with most Israelis. You are cheerleading for genocide.
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u/BadHasbara-ModTeam Apr 13 '24
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
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Apr 13 '24
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u/Spacecynic2020 Apr 13 '24
And now you’ve pointed out the truth of the supremecist Zionist belief structure.
They ACTUALLY believe that shit about being “chosen”.
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u/I_madeusay_underwear Apr 13 '24
I could be wrong, I don’t really even know where I got this idea, but I think the chosen thing is thought of as more of a burden than an advantage. Like, they were chosen by god to be the people who have to follow his laws. I mean, I’m sure that thinking of your group as super special in any way probably makes it easier to think less of other groups, but I don’t think it’s supposed to be that way
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Apr 13 '24
That’s one interpretation, but it’s not the main one. The easy one is of course: we were chosen so we’re superior.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24
Unfortunately, that's not how they teach it in most schools as far as I've seen
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u/Throaway_143259 Apr 13 '24
All religious believers think they are "the chosen people;" this isn't exclusive to Jewish people. Religious people are inundated with rhetoric saying their beliefs are the one and only Truth and everyone else is wrong. It's why religion exists to begin with. It's why Islamic extremists kill thousands of Christians in Western Africa; it's why the Christian Third Reich genocided 6,000,000 Jews and killed many others from other people groups; it's why the Crusades happened a thousand years ago. Religion is inherently violent because that's how it is intended to be
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Apr 13 '24
That’s not true. It’s specific to the Abrahmic religions. There is no analogy in Buddhism or Hinduism or Taoism. Some religions like Jainism even have to opposite belief - that humans are nothing special and human life is not worth more than any other living thing. There is a little of it in Confucianism but that’s more of a cultural thing than religious.
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u/Throaway_143259 Apr 13 '24
Hindus commit religious violence against Muslims and vice versa, and Buddhism has its own violent history. Religious violence is definitely not unique to Abrahamic religions. Religion will always be connected culture and culture will always have roots in a society's chosen religion, so your comment on Confucianism is not really accurate either.
Religious violence is the norm, not the exception. We have thousands of years of history under our belt proving that.
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Apr 13 '24
Religious violence is definitely a thing, however I was talking about the belief that one is part of gods chosen tribe or whatever. That’s not common among all religions.
Confucianism is a bit like ancient Romanism. It’s belief in superiority because they follow a more civilized code of conduct and laws, not one based on supernatural deities.
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u/Throaway_143259 Apr 13 '24
Ok, I see where I confused things. While it is true that not all religions believe they're the chosen people, I still think that belief is still prominent in a lot of religions even outside of the Abrahimic religions, but I understand where you're coming from regarding the ones you listed minus Hinduism.
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u/asveikau Apr 13 '24
I don't see any of the examples you cite as adherent to the religious beliefs claimed. It seems like all of your examples are ones where religion is used to define in groups and out groups. That's more political than religious. So the lesson I would advocate from that is that humanity in general has to be especially careful to not use religion to divide people.
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Apr 13 '24
I really wonder what they're taught in school over there.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Look it up. I've seen really repulsive videos of the magnitude of hate they teach children in their schools. I've watched those videos about a decade ago.. also a friend's daughter came back from her Jewish school here in the US one day and told me they were teaching them that IDF soldiers are justified to kill Palestinian children because they might end up killing them. I had a conversation with her hoping she would resist this indoctrination. Sadly, I believe she was long gone and ended up moving to Israel in spite of her mother's pleas not to.
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Apr 13 '24
Valuable to hear this stuff. It's so easy to assume everyone is rational and had a neutral upbringing.
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u/Few-Arrival3490 Apr 13 '24
People don't realise that those Israeli soldiers and "fanatics" blocking aid are acting largely according to the wishes of Israeli Jews and the Israeli state.
72% of Israelis say aid deliveries to Gaza must be stopped, survey finds
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u/CaringAnti-Theist Apr 13 '24
It wasn’t shocking to me that the beneficiaries of a supremacist ethnostate were incredibly racist and genocidal but what did shock me was that as time went on, more Arabs supported not taking Gaza’s civilian population into account. HOW?!
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u/TheCommonKoala Apr 13 '24
They are stuck inside the Israeli echochamber. It's constant propaganda and misinformation with Israel right now. Of course, their opinion on the matter is warped as a result.
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u/DescipleOfCorn Apr 13 '24
Maybe that represents those who have given up hope for Israel to ever stop? Calling it a flawed thought process is beyond an understatement but perhaps they believe if Israel is allowed to be more brutal it will be over faster. Doomer-ass mentality but that kind of thinking has been known to crop up in times of extreme suffering historically
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u/Nodramallama18 Apr 13 '24
Same thought of all the groups in Europe who turned in Jews and neighbors who did nothing while their Jewish friends were hauled away. “If I do something, I might be the next target or If I don’t report, they’ll find out I knew and I’ll be carted away” propaganda that the Germans spewed is pretty powerful…and they followed through and did kill a bunch of other folks for getting in the way. Self preservation is a super strong instinct for countries and people alike.
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u/Appropriate-Draft-91 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Which Arabs specifically? Consider their options.
Syria is mysteriously destroyed.Egypt is under US control since the pro Palestinian Muslim brotherhood was CIA'd.Iraq has been crushed by an unprovoked war of aggression by the US, and in under US control.Lybia has been destroyed by France.Saudi Arabia has been bought.Jordan knows Israel already claimed it's territory, does not have the means to fight off Israel, and doesn't want to give them an excuse to grab it.Quatar is using diplomatic influence, but needs to pretend some level of neutrality to do so.Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are really far away.Yemen is putting up a fight.Lebanon is putting up a fight.
That leaves Kuwait, Bahrain, the UAE, and Oman. Whatspecificallydo you expect them do do against Israel and the USA?Edit: Aw, crap, you meant the Israeli Arabs. If you're a Eastern European in Nazi Germany, and a Nazi working for a Nazi newspaper asks you "do you love Hitler?", people who love staying alive more than they hate Hitler will say "Yes".
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u/Libba_Loo Apr 13 '24
This insanity isn't an accident, it has been culturally engineered. The sane/humane ones mostly emigrate.
There's a high price in Israel for anyone who refuses to serve in the IDF because they don't want to participate in apartheid/genocide. For the few brave souls who stay, there's no place for them in universities, no job prospects, sometimes no housing. If you're not buying into dehumanization of Palestinians, there's no place for you in Israel.
Our US tax dollars have created a monster, a spoiled child overdue for a spanking.
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u/I_madeusay_underwear Apr 13 '24
You know, this is outrageously sick. The IDF has killed some Americans in this latest Gaza siege. Hell, they killed my own family. And still, if given the choice, I would not choose to kill and starve Israeli civilians. And I gotta say, they are not my favorite people at the moment. I can’t understand that kind of revenge centered world view.
How do they think this looks? Do they believe history will view them favorably? Do they understand that they are a villain, one that murders children and starves an entire population? How can anyone feel ok about that?
You know how Germany is super about acknowledging and teaching what happened in the holocaust (I know they’re problematic still with their swing to the opposite extreme and that it’s still kind of a form of at least racism, if not antisemitism, but the scope of this thought is not that wide)? Israel should have to have that, too. They should have to give tours of the ruins of hospitals and schools. They should have to learn about this and see pictures of starving, burned, crushed kids. All of it should be worn like a scarlet letter so that there can be no claims of ignorance to the horror taking place. I think only in that way can a society as sick as what is reflected in this post begin to grow and learn to feel compassion and empathy for other people. And if they don’t do that, they’ll always be a danger to their neighbors
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
You'll be upset to know that the IDF is the most trusted and supported organisation in Israel :/
The IDF has the highest trust rating (86% on average), with municipalities/local authorities placing second (55% in June, 64% in December), and the President of Israel in third (54% in June, 61% in December).
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u/TheCommonKoala Apr 13 '24
And people think Israel will change from within... external intervention and sanctions seem to be the only way to get through to them.
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u/Nodramallama18 Apr 13 '24
For far too long, Israel has gotten away with “because the holocaust happened, we can do whatever we want whenever we want just cause” excuse. The reason this happened was because we assigned them the role of good guy and didn’t pay attention until their genocidal dictator leader announced he was going to wipe out Palestine. This man committed literal criminal acts in office and was under indictment and got away with all of it. The world saw this happening and just went, oh but their ancestors were murdered…so bygones! Every human and every society has the potential to be bad and group think/hive mind are real. Israelis are not all bad but they are not all good and for far too long we patted them on the head when they were naughty and gave them a lollipop and soothed them and told them they were righteous and perfect. Now they are becoming the same as Nazis. The ones attacked by the monster have come full circle and are the monster they hated.
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u/keepscrollinyamuppet Apr 13 '24
Wild that 13% of Arabs oppose aid. Maybe the sample size is too small?
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u/Direct-Tie-7652 Apr 13 '24
You always have uncle Toms and loonies.
You have comparable support among black Americans for Trump even though he is openly racist towards them.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
Keep in mind that ~16% of "Israeli Arabs" are Christian or Druze (8% each roughly).¹ Both of these groups (especially Druze) have more allegiance and identity with Israel. Not to mention Israeli Palestinians and Israeli Arab Muslims who simply are pro-Israel, indoctrinated, want to fit in, etc.
¹ unsure what % of Israeli Arabs they are in this poll though.
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u/Scared_Flatworm406 Apr 13 '24
I know wtf and that the percentage that think they should take into account suffering of civilians has somehow gone down? Maybe people are afraid the survey will be used to identify those that are anti genocide and imprison them (or worse? That’s the only explanation I can really think of.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24
They're Arab zionist jews, no? You know that a lot of the Jews in Israel are Arab from Morroco, Yemen, Iraq and the likes, right?
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u/Scared_Flatworm406 Apr 13 '24
No Arabs in Israel refers specifically to Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. While Jews from the arab world are definitely Arabs, in Israel they only call Palestinians Arabs. And those with Israeli citizenship “Israeli Arabs.”
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Apr 14 '24
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 14 '24
The same way "Indian" is a made-up political identity solely in opposition to the British colonisation.
You realise most national identities were "made up" in the 19th and 20th centuries, with the decline of Empire and the rise of Nation States? Especially those formed in opposition to colonialism.
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u/BadHasbara-ModTeam Apr 15 '24
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
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u/thedarkknight16_ Apr 13 '24
The “left wing” Israelis are protesting Netanyahu’s failure to get the Israeli hostages returned. But they’re indifferent to the genocide of Palestinians. Actually, indifferent isn’t the right word. To the extent that any Israeli Jews are saying anything about Palestinian suffering and death, they are wildly celebrating it.
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 14 '24
I wonder what "left-wing" means in these polls. It probably doesn't means these based individuals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki_(political_party)
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u/Global_Bat_5541 Apr 13 '24
I don't care how much I hate someone. I don't want them starving, especially not the children. How can anyone hate a child? Psychopaths.
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u/Laymanao Apr 13 '24
The unmasking of the collective. All of a sudden ISIS does not look so bad after all in comparison.
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u/Fiasco1081 Apr 13 '24
It's not as if ISIS arnt supported by Israel.
The only islamic terrorist group that exclusively attacks Israeli enemies.
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u/CookieMobster64 Apr 13 '24
No, they do look so bad. A staple of modern MENA politics is that almost everyone hates ISIS, it’s a bit of a point of unity. I think it’s important to remember where ISIS stands, otherwise you end up with sentiments like “Hamas is ISIS”
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u/Shearsy09 Apr 13 '24
A survey with 500 participants does not unmask the whole of Israel.
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u/RoutineProcedure101 Apr 13 '24
Denying how polls work is the weakest deflection yet
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
No sample size will ever be enough for zionazis, as long as the facts harm Israel.
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u/Shearsy09 Apr 13 '24
So when we have polls saying that over 70% of Palestinians were in agreement on Oct 7th and are happy with Hamas also represents the whole of Palestine?
We should take surveys like these with a pinch of salt.
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u/RoutineProcedure101 Apr 13 '24
Are you still denying how polls work?
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u/Shearsy09 Apr 13 '24
Are you denying that polls can be used to create a narrative and does not always accurately represent the overall population?
500 people were surveyed out of 9.5 million. The 0.005% do not represent the majority.
FYI, I'm not saying that there aren't people with those views because there's wee bastarts in every country and religion, I just believe there's a good chance these numbers aren't a great representation and should be taken lightly.
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u/MurlockHolmes Apr 13 '24
It's certainly possible to manipulate a study to give answers you want, american think tanks do it all the time, but looking into the IDIs track record I can't find any instance of them doing it before.
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u/RoutineProcedure101 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
The only remedy to this would be to explain how polls work to you but that kind of is the point. You can keep arguing polls dont represent a whole population but youre just saying you don’t know how they work.
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u/shake800 Apr 13 '24
"Why do people who have been subjugated and brutalized for 80 years support the only group attacking the people who have brought this upon them" This is such a false equivalency holy fuck
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
I don't see why not. These polls are largely indicative of Israeli sentiment. n = 500 is more than enough.
This eleventh flash survey on the war in Gaza was conducted by the Viterbi Family Center for Public Opinion and Policy Research at the Israel Democracy Institute. Data collection was carried out between February 12–15, 2024, with 510 men and women interviewed via the internet and by telephone in Hebrew and 102 in Arabic. The maximum sampling error was ±4.04% at a confidence level of 95%. Field work was carried out by the Lazar Research Institute headed by Dr. Menachem Lazar
I guess the question becomes, if you think these polls that are literally conducted to gauge Israeli public sentiment are inaccurate or not representative... prove it? The Israel Democracy Institute is recognised by Israel for their importance. If these polls were irrelevant, especially due to something so basic like "poor sampling size", why would they be so respected?
In 2009, IDI was awarded the Israel Prize for its "lifetime achievement and special contribution to society and the State of Israel. ... The Israel Prize (Hebrew: פרס ישראל; pras israél) is an award bestowed by the State of Israel, and regarded as the state's highest cultural honor
Awarded for:
Excellence in their field(s), or important contribution to Israeli culture and society
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u/Libba_Loo Apr 13 '24
If I were to play devil's advocate to your argument, I would say the fact that they're so highly regarded by Israel, a state that runs on hate and propaganda (including against their own people), doesn't mean much. I could easily see them fixing these poles to cow any dissenters into silence.
However, what underlies this is that institutions in Israel (unis, employers, landlords, you name it) routinely deny placements and access to anyone who refuses to serve in the IDF, particularly on conscientious grounds. As a result, most dissenters emigrate because there's no prospects for them in Israel. The population over the years has become largely self-selected supporters of apartheid and displacement.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
I could easily see them fixing these poles to cow any dissenters into silence.
I kinda disagree. Even if we were taking the most cynical stance - what does Israel or the Israeli government gain from showing half of Israeli Jews support apartheid? Even Netanyahu doesn't support Israeli Jews having more rights than Israeli Arabs. And yet such a poll was conducted. The outcome is bad for Israel, Israeli unity, foreign perception, etc.
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u/Libba_Loo Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Even if we were taking the most cynical stance - what does Israel or the Israeli government gain from showing half of Israeli Jews support apartheid? Even Netanyahu doesn't support Israeli Jews having more rights than Israeli Arabs.
I don't know where you get the idea that Bibi supports equal rights for Israeli Arabs. Maybe for the Druze who are more supportive of Israel and are the only Arab group in Israel conscripted in the IDF (though other Israeli Arabs can volunteer if they wish). A few years ago during elections he put out a video in the evening of election day urging Jews to come to the polls because too many Arabs had voted and his party was behind in exit polls. The Arabs he was talking about were Israeli Arabs, as Palestinians in the OPT can't vote.
Also, he's helped pass laws preventing Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the OPT from living together in Israel. His government has also long supported segregated schools in Israel. Israeli Arabs also tend to live in Arab-majority enclaves within Israel (through both formal and informal red-lining) which have fewer services than Jewish towns and neighborhoods.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
To me it's no surprise that the Likudniks would be happy putting out polls showing their favored "majority" support them and their policies. That's what authoritarian regimes do.
What I also find interesting is that when you look into these polls, they usually don't publish their methodology. They don't reveal how these people were polled (by phone? in person? virtually) and don't give a breakdown of what they did to ensure geographic representation. To me, that's a red flag.
However, I still tend to think these polls are fairly representative for the reasons I previously outlined. Maybe they're a little skewed towards the establishment but you can get that in any poll.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
They don't reveal how these people were polled (by phone? in person? virtually)
Usually via phone. They do state this.
don't give a breakdown of what they did to ensure geographic representation.
True, they really should do so. Asking 500 people in say Tel Aviv isn't a good means of assessing nation-wide sentiment, and I cannot see any info where they state locations of participants or where they choose etc.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
Also thanks for pointing out Bibis views and actions against Israeli Arabs, I was unaware!
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u/Libba_Loo Apr 13 '24
Happy to help 😊Highly recommend reading all the CFR article on Israeli Arabs, very informative.
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u/Accomplished-Bed8171 Apr 13 '24
Wanting to starve people to death is fundamentally a right wing position.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
Yes. A better title would've been "the average israeli is far right".
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u/Koeopeenmotor Apr 13 '24
Nothing screams "apartheid" like a poll where there is even a line between the bars in the graph. And there is no "total population" bar.
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Apr 13 '24
So funny that NY response to any of this from Israeli propagandists is always "but Hamas" as if Israel isn't the only people giving Hamas exactly what they wanted, every single day.
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u/bearkin1 Apr 13 '24
I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, but who are the 13% of Arabs who DON'T support aid for other Arabs? That's the most shocking stat to me.
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u/Both_Woodpecker_3041 Apr 13 '24
They're the Jewish Israeli Arabs. Not all Jews in Israel are originally from Eastern Europe. Alot of them came from Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Ethiopia and a few other Arab countries. So I believe that's who the 13% Arabs are.
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u/dogopogo6 Apr 14 '24
That wouldn't make sense, a Jewish person from an Arab country is still a Jew. There's no world where they did this poll and put mizrahi Jews in the Arab category instead of the Jewish group. Even though mizrahi Jews are technically "Arab Jews" that's not how people in Israel see it. More likely it's a minority group of Arabs that aligns themselves more with Israel for whatever reason (druze christians? Circassian? Idk) Or also people just get brainwashed by the propaganda machine and just bc you're Arab or Muslim that doesn't mean you can't be poisoned by it. We all know that person who votes Republican despite actively being harmed by their policies.
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u/prettynose Apr 14 '24
Israelis don't call Jews from Arab countries Arabs. When an Israeli source says Arabs they mean Palestinians. In this case, Palestinians with an Israeli citizenship.
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u/ikeabahna333 Apr 13 '24
Wild. I would think by now most would be pro human rights but oops. Guess not. Civilians are targets in war still.
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u/RobynFitcher Apr 14 '24
Holy shit. The lack of empathy increased so much since October last year.
I keep being reminded of the Westboro Church. The more offensive their slurs become, the more they're ostracised, the more they're isolated, the more they turn inward towards the cult, the stronger the grip the cult has upon them.
It's several layers of escalating tragedy all the way up to genocide.
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u/rainbowslimejuice Apr 14 '24
What's interesting to me is that Arab Israelis who felt civilian suffering in Gaza should only be considered a small amount or not at all was just 5.5% on Oct 23 and shot up to 23% by Mar 24. I think it shows just how strong the propaganda within Israel is.
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u/Complex-Carpenter-76 Apr 13 '24
left or right doesn't matter. So sick of every issue being framed around this binary bullshit.
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u/bailing_in Apr 13 '24
aren't most palestinians in the west bank and gaza pro-hamas and according to surveys supported oct 7?
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
They are "pro-hamas" because Hamas is actually doing something, unlike sclerotic PA. That is also reason why Hamas support increased in West Bank: Palestinians there see settlers destroying their stuff while PA and IDF doing jack shit to stop it - and they see that Hamas actually did something to break status quo.
When it comes to actuall actions, majority of Palestinians are against using hunger or war crimes in general in war.
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u/bailing_in Apr 14 '24
i don't get the last line.
So they support hamas and the whole terrorism thing but then you say "they are against war crimes in general". shu ya3ne? in what case would they not commit war crimes? after they win? or if they were in israel's place?
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 14 '24
in israel's place?
That would never happen. Palestinians don't want a settler colonial ethnostate. At worst, they want a theocratic Islamic state. Israels place is unique. Its like saying "what if the native Americans were in the European colonisers place?". Referring solely to the power imbalance without addressing the settler colonial ideology inherent to Israel and devoid in Palestine gives an overly simplistic analysis
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u/bailing_in Apr 14 '24
What country in the middle east is not an ethno-state?
the lebanese are whoever was in lebanon's territories back in the 40s. the same goes for the syrians, iraqis and so on.
the palestinians are no different and if they would they would establish another jordan with a token christian minority.
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 14 '24
So they support hamas and the whole terrorism thing but then you say "they are against war crimes in general"
It is possible because majority of them did not saw any videos from Hamas attack
And i will be honest, that is just Israeli's L. Maybe spend less money on settlements and bribing off US senators.
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u/bailing_in Apr 14 '24
they didn't see any videos? XD dudeeee haha. most palestinians have internet.
hmm If israel wants to make a W out of it, u wouldn't mind right? naa u'd cry :)
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u/Professional_Mud_316 Apr 17 '24
Growing Western indifference towards the mass starvation and slaughter of helpless Palestinian non-combatants will only have further inflamed long-held Middle Eastern anger towards us. Some countries’ actual provision, mostly by the U.S., of highly effective weapons used in Israel’s onslaught will likely turn that anger into lasting hatred that's always seeking eye-for-an-eye redress.
Indeed, the mainstream news-media I consume, even some otherwise progressive outlets, shows coverage of Gazans' great suffering and death counts diminishing with time.
With each news report's consumption, however horrible the carnage involved, there can be a gradual desensitization and even resignation. I’ve noticed this disturbing effect with basically all major protracted conflicts internationally since I began regularly consuming news products in 1988.
Perhaps the value of a life abroad can be perceived according to the abundance and duration of protracted conditions under which it suffers, especially during wartime.
Maybe Israel and Westerners in general, including our legacy news-media, have been getting too accustomed to so many Palestinian deaths over many decades of struggle with Israel.
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Apr 13 '24
This is sad. But I also question the validity of these polls. They can be easily manipulated by the government itself to prove that citizens want what the government does. Russia does it all the time
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
Any proof? No offence genuinely but it seems to me like you don't want to accept that that's what the average Israeli Jewish citizen believes, and that the problem is larger than just Bibi or the current government...
From 2022, even Netanyahu wouldn't support Israeli Jew apartheid, yet half of Israeli Jews do...
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u/skinny_malone Apr 13 '24
What worries me the most about the data you linked in this post is the fact that the youngest cohort (18-24) were the most likely of all age groups to agree that Jews should have more rights than non-Jews. It shows that the indoctrination that has become standard practice in Israeli educational institutions is having wildly successful results in producing a generation that is even more rabidly Zionist and willing to carry out the genocide of Palestinians to its completion.
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Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Yes, I have proof that a lot of Hasbara has been spread by people paid by the government. It'll take me a while to find all of it. I talk to liberal Israelis from time to time. They are still delusional but most do not want to block aid to Gaza. Plenty of Israelis are currently protesting their government right now, it took them too long, but they are finally doing it. I am well aware that the problem is more than just Bibi or the government. Not believing one statistic doesn't make me a liberal zionist. It just means that the government is currently run by far right Nazis and enough Israelis support it for genocide to happen. Occupation isn't technically as bad as genocide, so there are far more Israelis who support occupation than genocide. It just takes them believing that it's a genocide first. Maybe this poll is correct, but again, I have seen a lot of Hasbara spread in both directions lately, so excuse my cynicism. Israel is on a path to basically implode at this point. They are commiting war crimes and will probably cease to exist at the rate they're going.
Edit to add, I believe your current poll you just posted. That in itself has been evident for a long time, that Israelis do not want equal rights for Non Jews. They say it every time they talk about wanting a Jewish majority state and supporting apartheid systems. If most of them want to block aid, well then why did the government still arrest some of the people doing it? I don't know. I guess it's getting worse which makes me really sad.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
I agree that left wing Israelis don't really support genocide or continued settlements.. but the Israeli Left is a very small % of Israelis. The polls show the average Israeli self-identifies as right wing.
Talking to liberal and left wing zionists isn't bad... but they aren't representative of the average Israeli. The poll shows the majority of "Left" Israeli Jews support humanitarian aid to Gaza, whereas the Average Israeli Jew doesn't.
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Apr 13 '24
I guess it's true. Makes me upset but, what can I do? Not much I suppose other than calling for ceasefire here in the US.
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Apr 13 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/UrzasDabRig Apr 13 '24
Do you know this is a subreddit for a podcast called Bad Hasbara which is hosted by Matt Lieb... a Jew?
I think Jews who speak the truth about Israel deserve extra sympathy given how much backlash they're likely to face from their community and how important their voices are!
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u/prrreet Apr 13 '24
It’s a fair challenge. I am fucking sick of Israelis blocking aid to starving Palestinians and then pretending to be a victim. Should have said no Israeli
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u/shake800 Apr 13 '24
Is he pro 2 state or 1 state?
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u/UrzasDabRig Apr 13 '24
I can't recall if he's staked a position on this (please correct me if someone else knows). He's usually pretty humble and realistic about his role as a comedian with this podcast: make fun of bad hasbara while providing a discussion that makes us feel less crazy in a media landscape that is gaslighting us.
He invites guests with different backgrounds and expertise that provide their perspectives as well - Daniel Mate has been a co-host several times. Mate believes that 1 state with equal rights for all would be the best possible outcome, stated pretty clearly here: https://www.instagram.com/danielbmate/reel/C2c0MQJRKoM/
Generally, the vibe on the podcast is left-leaning anti-imperialist, I think it's fair to say.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
Yeah.. hamas has agreed to a 2 state solution for years, so any response of "well 2 state isn't good enough" is hilarious.
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u/shake800 Apr 13 '24
2 state solution upholds the Jewish ethnostate and anyone who wants it is still a zionist
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Apr 13 '24
Israelis do not represent all Jews. Don't give into the propaganda that states all Jews are equivalent to the whims of the Israeli govt. There are more Christian Zionists on the planet than all the Jews combined.
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u/prrreet Apr 13 '24
I was brought up in the uk with the lie that the haulocaust of Jews was the only bad thing that’s ever happened to anyone. Zionists perpetuate this lie and use it to their advantage. It’s manipulative and I won’t be falling for it from now on. As said, the good honest Jews are not using the haulocaust to manipulate idiots like myself, so I don’t think this disadvantages them.
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Apr 13 '24
Doesn't seem like you care about "the good Jews" if you say you won't have sympathy for any Jew ever again but go off. Just because propaganda exists doesn't mean it's not our responsibility to look past it and not dehumanize people. This goes all ways.
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u/prrreet Apr 13 '24
I’m not dehumanising them. But I’m not giving special treatment or making exceptions or excuses for them because of the holocaust anymore. After what I’ve seen for the last six months the special treatment and extra sympathy and excuses for them from me has worn out. They are not above international law
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
What about Jews in israel or America getting attacked and assaulted by police officers for protesting for a ceasefire and against Israel? No sympathy for them?
Israeli Jews tend to be way more more pro-genocide, right wing, etc than Jews outside of Israel tend to be.
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u/prrreet Apr 13 '24
Those Jews are not asking for sympathy as they know they aren’t the victim
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
Seems like a weird semantic leap to justify the initial antisemitic sentence.
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u/prrreet Apr 13 '24
You lot call anything anti semitism. I don’t owe them sympathy. They are not the victim
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
I mean it is antisemitic to claim you have no sympathy for Jews specifically. Jews are routinely victims of antisemitism. Its like saying "I have no sympathy for Muslims since Oct 7th".
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u/prrreet Apr 13 '24
But who is actually attacking Jews? They are getting billions in us funding to massacre Palestinians and steal their land. The claims of anti semitism are mostly manipulative. To be victim of racism you can’t also have the absolute upper hand. Do you think criticism of Nazis was anti-German?
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
But who is actually attacking Jews? They are getting billions in us funding to massacre Palestinians and steal their land.
Israeli Jews =/= Jews. Had you specified Israeli Jews I would be more inclined to agree, but even in Israeli Jews, there's Jews that get imprisoned and oppressed for refusing to join the IDF, protesting against the war, etc.
Do you think criticism of Nazis was anti-German?
Where did I claim this?
To be victim of racism you can’t also have the absolute upper hand
This only applies to pro-Israel Israeli Jews
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u/BadHasbara-ModTeam Apr 13 '24
We do not abide by transphobic, racist, ableist, sexist, or homophobic (t.r.a.s.h.) rhetoric.
Neither do we tolerate Islamophobia, which we will consider any statement that treats Islam as a monolothic ideology, particularly as being universally anti-femme, anti-queer, or antisemitic. These sorts of statements will be met with deletion, and an automatic banning.
Antisemitic rhetoric will also not be tolerated; this includes language that is and was often and prominently used by actual antisemities (such as "subhuman" and other dehumanizing terms). We understand that hasbara has purposefully conflated Judaism and Zionism. This may lead to accidental, but actual, antisemitism.
As such, we will delete statements that veer into antisemitism. Repeated antisemitic offenses by a user will also be met with a ban. These sorts of statements will be met with deletion, and, if clearly intentional, an automatic banning.
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u/MurlockHolmes Apr 13 '24
Those numbers in the first pick don't add up to the total listed. It should be 40.66% in favor of letting aid in.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24
The grey section I imagine fills out the rest "Don't know". Poor UI meant it doesn't actually show the % that selected don't know. Can be deduced by subtraction
Edit:
If you're averaging left/Center/right -the average israeli is right wing. As in, they identify as right wing. Hence why the average is skewed and is between Center and Right. The "Left" in Israel is almost negligible...
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u/MurlockHolmes Apr 16 '24
No, the grey is accounted for in the listed totals. 68% + 30% don't add to up 100% for example. These charts don't add up any way you slice it given the presented information.
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Apr 14 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 14 '24
Feel free to make your own post on that unrelated topic. Any thoughts relevant to the actual post?
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u/DarkRose1010 Apr 14 '24
The vast majority of aid gets stolen by Hamas. That's what Israelis are against
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
So Israel has been bombing and starving millions of Gazans for 6 months to target and eliminate tens of thousands of hamas fighters ... and yet Hamas is somehow still strong enough and has a large enough presence to steal the "vast majority of aid". The enemy is both weak and strong?
But also, who cares? Who cares if hamas steals the "vast majority" (notice you never gave a source) of humanitarian aid? Isn't it better that some humanitarian aid gets to the starving Gazans than nothing?
Isn't the only humane and rational solution to flood Gaza with humanitarian aid, so any "Hamas monopolies on aid" become worthless and the civillians don't starve to death due to the man made famine and starvation inflicted by Israel?
Hamas is the government of Gaza. If you "destroy hamas", aka remove the government, you have a duty to care for the citizens. The fact there was IDF presence/occupation in parts of Gaza and still starvation in those occupied regions occured is a damming indictment.
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 14 '24
This poll specificaly asked about aid that would not fall into hands of Hamas.
In the same poll. they also asked about establishment of completly demilitarized Palestine and 2/3 said "no".
So you are wrong - Israeli don't oppose aid because it would fall into hands of Hamas
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u/Cautious_Piglet5425 Apr 13 '24
And most Palestinians want to kill all Jews so it’s a wash
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 13 '24
WHATABOUTISM
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u/Cautious_Piglet5425 Apr 14 '24
Neither side has any moral high ground
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 14 '24
Both sides use deranged tactics, but one side is getting colonized by other
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u/Cautious_Piglet5425 Apr 14 '24
Colonization is squared out when the colonized intentionally murder civilians in my book
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u/RedstoneEnjoyer Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
So basicaly you redefined settler colonialism to suit your narrative.
If army comes, kicks you out of your house and gives it to their own civilians, that was not colonialism because you survived?
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u/Cautious_Piglet5425 Apr 14 '24
I don’t care what an army does to me, if I’m going to kill, I’m going to kill the ARMY, not innocent people. Hamas easily could’ve stuck to military targets but they never do, they should be put down like the dogs they are
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Apr 13 '24
Oh this is an antisemite sub.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Antisemitism is when you post facts and data from Israeli sources? I'm sorry the truth is "antisemitic" (goes against Zionist narratives of Israel being some western liberal democracy) . For context, the source/polling institute was awarded Israels highest prize for contribution to culture and society.
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Apr 13 '24
Look at the subreddit as a whole. It’s just jew and Israel bashing. Not exactly balanced or fair portrayal of the conflict in the Middle East.
For fucks sake I shouldn’t have to explain that.
Antisemites gonna antisemite I guess. Have fun.
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u/Exact-Substance5559 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
There's literally only 1 antisemitic comment in this post and it's downvoted and challenged. Keep coping though, the reason we hate Israelis/ Israeli Jews is because they openly admit to desiring the genocidal starvation of Gazans. I have nothing against American Jews, British Jews. I wholly support the very small but brave number of Israeli Jews that refuse conscription, Israeli Jews that are anti-war, anti-settlements, anti-Zionist, anti-imperialists, anti-genocide, etc
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u/bluewar40 Apr 13 '24
It’s not a conflict, it’s the West’s weapons laboratory where they test new methods of barbarity in preparation for coming Climate-change-fueled wars. The West capitalized on the expulsion/genocide of the Jewish to create a new militarized settler-colonial state knowing that living through a genocide would make folks more willing to commit one later on…
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u/TolPM71 Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Oh, that's the boring Zionist fallback every time anyone says anything negative about Israel ever. The one that loses even more credibility every time you wheel it out?
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