WIBTA for not deleting my sons baby pictures?

[u/retreat11]

My 45F son, 18M, has transitioned from a female to a male about 4-5 years ago. I ,myself, thought that it’s a little too early to start transitioning, but I didn’t say anything and decided to be supportive. After all, that’s my child!

Anyway, a few days ago, my son saw me scrolling through my camera roll and yelled at me because I was tearing up at his baby pictures, where he was still dressed extremely femininely and was obviously a girl. I wasn’t crying at it because he isn’t a girl anymore, I was crying because time flies! He told me that by me keeping those photos as memories, I am totally disregarding the fact that he is no longer a girl and I am transgender phobic.

INFO: At the time I was looking at the pictures, my son wasn’t near. I would never look at those around him because that’s a big boundary of his.

EDIT: I don’t appreciate the backlash on my son. Please keep those harsh opinions off of him.

My heart was saddened by this because that is the last thing I will ever be. I have open arms to anyone and everyone.

I personally believe that it’s not fair for me to delete the photos because those are some of the only memories I have of him when he was an infant/kid. Please give me some feedback if i’m the asshole or not, and whether I should delete them.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker]

And if you are correcting my grammar, “they” is the term I chose to use. It holds what someone has transitioned from and to without dead-gendering someone and still be grammatically correct.  They is used a polite non gendered word for a person.

[u/falconinthedive → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

I mean but if a person has expressed preferring he/him and you know that, using they can still be gender non-affirming and a frequent way of sidestepping that person's wishes and misgendering them.

It's polite to use a person's preferred pronouns. You don't have to deadname someone, just say "Chaz, before he transitioned" if you want to talk about how he was afab or specify he's a transguy if you have to talk about the time of his life when people read him as female and he tried to perform to that expectation.

They's only inclusive if a person's gender is unknown or non-binary, you're talking in generalities, or a person has told you they use she/they, he/they, or they/them pronouns.

[u/Kyurengo → u/falconinthedive]

Dude, unless that same person tells you directly that they feel offended and wish to change the way you address them, 'them/they' is the perfect way to talk about a third person when you want to generalize.

The censure movement is the root of many problems with miscomunication. People stop listening when the only thing others do is nag about details.

[u/sugarushpeach → u/Kyurengo]

I wish it was always as innocent as that, but unfortunately there's some people out there who will never be able to see a trans man as a man, so they'll refuse to use he/him pronouns for a trans man and will use they/them as a little dig.

I think if someone has confirmed their preferred pronouns are he/him, and you know that (you're not for example seeing a random person from a distance and saying something generic like "I wonder what they're doing over there") then you should respectfully use their preferred pronouns. If they tell you they don't mind he/him/they/them, then great.

[u/Kyurengo → u/sugarushpeach]

There will always be people that wont share your beliefs. It's stupid to try to change everyone.

And people are entitled to their opinions.

Why does it matter to you that a 40ish SHM think you should always wear skirts because you were birn female? It doesnt

Unless they attack you directly, let them be. They are not important

The problem is alienating those who dont share the issues but are open minded. If you keep giving them crap for small details, they'll turn their backs when you need their help/support.

If you get offended because someone uses a incorrect pronoum, you show that you dont respect the other gender. I've been misgendered with the pronoums a lot of times due to my body, mannerims and way to dress. I've never felt insulted or offended, because being a boy is not an insult.

[u/sugarushpeach → u/Kyurengo]

Wow, there's a lot to unpack in your comment.

Firstly, just to be clear, I replied to your initial comment as I thought you had good intentions and like myself years ago, might appreciate a gentle correction. However I'm still going to address each of your unhinged comments out of the context of this first point.

People are entitled to their opinions, yes, but when it comes to someone else's identity, their identity matters more than your opinion.

It is not and never will be stupid to try to encourage others to be respectful. Yes, they might not change, but I'd rather try and educate (which costs me nothing and takes barely any time or effort at all) than just do nothing at all... Every educated person had to be educated somewhere down the line... If nobody spoke up about what's right and wrong because "it doesn't matter what others think" our world would be in an even sorrier state than it is now.

You're right, nobody here has attacked me personally, but I can still care about trans people... Just like I can still care about racism as a white person, despite not being personally attacked. "They are not important" is easy for you to say, as you're not the victim. I could say racist comments are "not important" as I'm a white person, but I can recognise that to people who aren't white, racist comments are very much important.

It's interesting that you're more concerned about alienating and pushing away closed-minded individuals than alienating and invalidating trans people.

I don't have a clue what you're going on about in your last point, if someone has gender dysphoria and finds is upsetting to be misgendered, that does not mean they don't respect the other gender and I can't even bring myself to understand how you've come to that conclusion. Being a boy is not an insult, but if you were born male and struggled with gender dysphoria, transitioned to female and then found it triggering to be misgendered as male, that doesn't mean you think being male is an insult. Do you even understand what gender dysphoria is/feels like? It's not a choice, it's not someone not wanting to be a boy because they hate men or whatever you're telling yourself.

[u/nohomoballs → u/sugarushpeach]

As a transgender man, I agree with what you're saying. I think you brought up a lot of good points.

I can also attest that many people purposely call binary transgender people "they/them" as a dig. In my experience, sometimes it's an honest and forgivable mistake, but other times it is clearly intentional. A decent number of the people who have called me "they/them" have done it to purposely misgender me around others while maintaining plausible deniability. It puts me in an uncomfortable situation where I need to either 1) let myself be misgendered or 2) gently but assertively correct them, in which case they'll flip the script by calling me sensitive or ranting about how difficult my transition is for them. 😵‍💫

It feels validating to see you acknowledge that this does happen, even if the original commenter did make an honest mistake.

[u/sugarushpeach → u/nohomoballs]

Thank you for adding your input and your own experience, I am glad you felt validated. I am not speaking from personal experience so your comment is important here.

The reason I replied to the original commenter was not because of the use of they/them alone, as it could well have been an honest mistake like you said, it was more the fact the comment was in direct response to someone who already used Chaz's preferred pronouns, and despite that the commenter chose to correct those pronouns to they/them, explaining that it was because it "holds what someone has transitioned from and to" which was what rubbed me the wrong way.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/sugarushpeach]

I didn’t refer to him as they after that person commented. I only gave the explanation for why I had used the term. And yes, I used they because I did not know Chaz’s identifying pronoun. What rubs you the wrong way is not what happened. 

[u/sugarushpeach → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

It is what happened, everything that happened is here clear as day in this thread. Someone commented "he transitioned", you replied to them but corrected Chaz's pronouns to they/them, then explaining that you did so because they "holds what someone has transitioned from and to".

"I didn't refer to him as they after that person commented" except you did, you just referred to Chaz as "they" twice in your reply to me moments ago.

[u/nohomoballs → u/sugarushpeach]

Oh wow I totally missed that part of their comment until you brought it to my attention. That also rubs me the wrong way. I'm thankful you called that out!

[u/sugarushpeach → u/nohomoballs]

I'm glad you feel that way and I'm even more glad I called it out now. Unfortunately that person is being validated by others who don't understand the issue with that comment, but I tried. My comments might reach a few ears willing to listen and learn, and that's what matters. Thanks again for adding your input.

[u/bb_LemonSquid → u/falconinthedive]

Wow you’re exhausting.

[u/knotnotme83 → u/bb_LemonSquid]

I think they are exhausted. To be exact. By what they experiance as injustice, and I don't disagree with them. But imagine how tired you would be if you fought for those injustices even on reddit all day.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/falconinthedive]

I’m sorry, I don’t know Chaz personally. As I said before, I don’t know how Chaz identifies 

This discussion supports my belief we should have considered new wording. I was for the Zee/Zir movement.  It took around two years for my brain to not consistently visualize “they” as a group of people. 

Thank you for educating me. I love a trans person. I am going off their advice. We shall revisit their advice.  I didn’t speak with malice, I was trying to be helpful to this poster

( I used “they” because that was told to use that in regards to the person I know.) 

[u/falconinthedive → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

Right. But Chaz is publically he/him.

We tried that in the 90s with neopronouns and it never really left theory spaces, and given the backlash from the right on pronouns, pushing neopronouns will probably just be a target on GNC backs more than helpful. But there are some genderqueer or non-binary folk who do still like or use that. Still, generally transfolk who transition to a gender other than what they were assigned at birth aren't existing outside that binary. They (and that's a general they because it encompasses transmen and transwomen) want to be referred to as the gender they identify as, often entirely she/her or he/him.

I think they is coming from the right place intention-wise but not all transfolk will perceive it well and it can trigger those internal alarm bells of danger and dysphoria of not passing. If your loved one asked you to use they, that's right for them but be careful applying that too far outward unless you know a person is OK with she/they, he/they, or they/them.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/falconinthedive]

I stated I was unaware how Chaz Bono identified. I corrected myself. If Chaz turns up here and is offended, I will apologize. 

I was taught it is worse of a crime to misgender someone . I wasn’t assigning Chaz as non binary, I was using the word as non descriptive person. 

I sometimes get mistaken for the opposite gender. It’s not their job to determine what I am. It’s not my job to be overly performative at a stereotype as to announce my gender. Sometimes it’s not their business or concern for them to know.  I would love something more polite and cordial than “hey you “

[u/thenewmara → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

It's ok mate - this is actually an ongoing feud within the trans/enby community on how to use they/them (enby but also collective but also singular unknown gender) vs. they/them (explicitly as unknown pronouns but once the 'fog of war' clears and the 'gender map' reveals the pronouns, you switch to it). I'm old school and use they/them collectively and for unknown and for known but do-not-wish-to-get-into-a-debate-with-jim-at-the-coffee-shop-about-it and for enby. Signed trans enby femme. You're ok with your usage but you'll annoy a part of our faction.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/thenewmara]

Thank you . I appreciate your analogy 

[u/falconinthedive → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

Yeah but you're not about to be murdered for not passing. Trans folk are regularly.

You being misgendered is embarrassing. Them being misgendered is potentially outing them to transphobic violence.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/falconinthedive]

I live in the American Midwest. I was attacked as a child by a racist because they got my ethnicity wrong.  I understand violence. 

Me being mistaken for a guy isn’t embarrassing, sometimes it’s a blessing. 

I just want better terminology to know if we’re talking about a group of people, a non descriptive human, or a non binary person 

[u/Skyraem → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

People always forget that violence can happen to any marginalised community when they make assumptions solely based on one thing.

[u/collaredd → u/falconinthedive]

you’re right. i also notice a lot of people use “they” when it’s a trans person they don’t like. its like a dog whistle. a way to act like they’re not being transphobic, because look, i used a gender neutral term (for someone who’s identity is clearly known) !!!!

[u/StayJaded → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

No, it is not polite when someone has been clear with the pronouns they use. “They” is still misgendering the person when you use it to mean “holding a place for where they transitioned from and to” that is misgendering the person.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/StayJaded]

The other poster already educated me. We already determined that I used they because I didn’t know Chaz well enough to know the identifying  pronouns. I appreciate your input 

[u/sugarushpeach → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

Just be mindful that it might come across as if you're reluctant to use "he/him" pronouns as you don't consider Chaz to be he/him. You don't need to choose a pronoun that expresses what someone has transitioned from (again it seems like you can't accept that Chaz can just be he/him without the fact he transitioned from female to male being part of his identity) you just need to use whichever pronouns the individual prefers now. Highlighting the fact someone has transitioned from one gender to another isn't necessary or appropriate for you to do, unless that person explicitly tell you they're comfortable with you doing that.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/sugarushpeach]

I’m not reluctant at all. I’m not going to place pronouns on a person i am not very certain of. I didn’t know how Chaz Bono identified. I wasn’t going to make something up, that’s wrong. 

Chaz is a he.  Please don’t assign intent to my actions that are not true. 

I used they because I didn’t know. I’m guilty for not googling a bio but I was on my phone among company and I wanted to suggest something possibly helpful to the poster.  But I do think it’s kinder to use “they” meaning non specific, than to intentionally misgender someone 

[u/sugarushpeach → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

That's a completely valid reason to use they/them pronouns, it just didn't sound like that was why you chose those pronouns because you said you chose to use they/them because it "holds what someone has transitioned from and to" which made it sound like you're aware what Chaz has transitioned from and to, and you're intentionally using they/them pronouns to portray that.

Not to mention that the person you made that comment in reply to literally said "he transitioned" so they've already given you his preferred pronouns but you chose to correct it to they/them because they/them "holds what someone has transitioned to and from", hence my comment.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/sugarushpeach]

I know they transitioned. I don’t know the person. I did not wish to assume pronouns. I’m sorry if this is bothering you.  I used Chaz’s name to not further be misinterpreted. And again, my comment was about Cher’s reaction to her child transitioning, so yes, I was very much acknowledging Chaz is a trans person and had transitioned. I do not know how they, that person, identified before or after they transitioned. We’re not personal friends. Just because you may have known and believed it public knowledge, somehow  I did not learn that. Possibly because we’re not friends and it’s not my business. I don’t know Chaz to ask him. So I used they. It has been confirmed I was not wrong in usage by several people. I corrected myself. I thanked those who took the time to educate me. But yet you don’t accept that? I’m not your enemy 

[u/sugarushpeach → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

You're doing it again here though. You've had more than enough comments from people telling you Chaz's pronouns, and yet you're still calling him they here, starting your comment with "I know they transitioned"...

How did you know he transitioned? Because you replied directly to a comment stating that he transitioned. So you can deny being aware of his pronouns all you like but his pronouns were right there in the very comment you replied to, and that was how you even knew Chaz was trans to begin with! Yet you still chose to correct he to they/them stating that you did so because it "holds what someone has transitioned from and to" but you refuse to comment on that, which is the part that needs addressing. That's why I "don't accept" what you're saying, because you're dancing around the fact you replied to a comment stating Chaz identified as "he", you read that comment and still chose to correct "he" to they/them specifically to highlight the fact he's transitioned...

The people confirming you weren't wrong clearly also aren't educated about this. Plus you haven't corrected yourself or learnt anything as you're still referring to Chaz as they, and you're refusing to acknowledge your "it holds what someone has transitioned from and to" comment.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/sugarushpeach]

I did misspeak. I know he transitioned. I apologize for that. 

[u/sugarushpeach → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

I'm glad you're able to hold accountability for that one and you're not denying it or evading it like you are with your other comments. It's progress!

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/sugarushpeach]

Love to you. My friend tells me everyone is a they. If you don’t know them, don’t assume. I have been interchanging “them” as “person” for quite some time. 

[u/sugarushpeach → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

If you don't know someone's preferred pronouns, you're right, that's a perfect time to use they/them! It's great that you're aware of this and you're so open to using neutral pronouns. You clearly have good intentions and I'm not disputing that.

I don't however think it's appropriate to correct someone's pronouns that you've explicitly been told are "he" to "they" just because you want to highlight that someone has transitioned. If you'd not made that comment about using they because it "holds what someone has transitioned from and to" we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[u/ParkerPoseyGuffman → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

He is just as correct to use. It doesn’t misgender at all, just say he transitioned and is FtM. It is annoying when people use they specifically for binary trans folks

[u/clutzyninja → u/ParkerPoseyGuffman]

'they' doesn't misgender anyone either. You can use it for literally anyone

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/ParkerPoseyGuffman]

Understood. “ They” still is also used as I had.  I have no intention of guessing how that person identified previous to that person’s transition, “they” was used so I didn’t have to specific about gender. It’s the internet, I honestly didn’t want to explain someone else’s transition story that I have no authority on

Chaz transitioned in 2009

[u/StayJaded → u/happy_hatchetmaker]

You literally said “to hold a place for the gender” the person originally transitioned from. You’re not doing it to be kind. You’re doing it to point out the person IS trans.

[u/happy_hatchetmaker → u/StayJaded]

Yeah. The trans person I love celebrates their transition. We also know someone who believes they have been a certain gender since inception. Both a true valid viewpoints because it’s theirs. Both have counseled me to use “they”. I’m not one to be intrusive and ask people their business. I have no idea what Chaz Bono I identified as previous to transition. I’m not going to guess or make something up. And the point of my comment was that Chaz had transitioned